Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 39152 times)

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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2012, 11:47:16 PM »
Welcome moxieman and freakygin.

Moxie, it's not prophecy when it's used as instructions. If the jews of the world saw that they were supposed to take back Israel, because it was in the bible, and they did it, that is why. Not because of prophecy. We have a bunch of fundamentalist christians here in the United States that are trying to help the Israeli's not because they care about jews but because they want the prophecy fulfilled. There is something in the prophecy about a red calf, so american christian cattlemen bred the right color calf to help out.

It isn't prophecy when the story is used to give instructions on how to insert tab A into slot B.

freakygin, the story was an analogy, meant to tell the christian version of a cute story. It only has meaning if one is willing to voluntarily fall for it. That's the nice thing about fiction. It can support other fictions quite nicely.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Garret

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I know God lives through faith and the Holy Ghost
« Reply #117 on: March 04, 2012, 09:26:22 AM »
I haven't really ever given much thought to try and logically prove that God lives.

I have however come to know that God truly is real.  I know that God is my Heavenly Father and I am His son.

How do I know this?

Through a basic principle called faith.

"...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

I have read the word of God and had a desire to know if they were true.  That desire took me to have faith by praying to know.  Many times I have prayed for confirmations concerning God, Jesus Christ, and commandments and I have received witnesses by the Holy Ghost.

These witnesses that have helped me know that God is real, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, and that we are God's children are more real to me than if God had, with an audible voice, spoke to me.

I know God is real and He is my father.  Not because of logic but because I have exercised faith.

Online Aaron123

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Re: I know God lives through faith and the Holy Ghost
« Reply #118 on: March 04, 2012, 02:17:36 PM »
I haven't really ever given much thought to try and logically prove that God lives.

I have however come to know that God truly is real.  I know that God is my Heavenly Father and I am His son.

How do I know this?

Through a basic principle called faith.

"...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

I have read the word of God and had a desire to know if they were true.  That desire took me to have faith by praying to know.  Many times I have prayed for confirmations concerning God, Jesus Christ, and commandments and I have received witnesses by the Holy Ghost.

In short; you used circular logic and wishful thinking.  Sorry, but reality doesn't work that way.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Nick

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #119 on: March 04, 2012, 02:34:38 PM »
I know I'm going to reget this...ok, you said the Holy Ghost witnessed to you.  Care to explain this (assuming you were not high).
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #120 on: March 04, 2012, 02:43:48 PM »
Garrett

What is your explanation for the various people that have been here who say that they were serious christians and they prayed and prayed for the type of signs you say you have gotten, and they got nothing. Why would your god be nice to you and ignore others who sincerely wanted their faith to be real.

And if you're in the mood, why does your god require faith just like all the gods you agree don't exist (hindu, etc.) There have been thousands of gods claimed, and none showed up directly. Including yours. Is he so unimaginative that he has to use the same method as non-existing gods? Or is that just a coincidence?

Welcome by the way. We may sound a bit dubious of your claims, but as long as you remain calm and collected and don't panic, you'll be safe. We bark, but we don't bite.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline velkyn

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Re: I know God lives through faith and the Holy Ghost
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2012, 10:36:08 AM »
I haven't really ever given much thought to try and logically prove that God lives.
I have however come to know that God truly is real.  I know that God is my Heavenly Father and I am His son.
How do I know this?
Through a basic principle called faith.
"...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."
other religions claim faith too, are they as valid as yours? 

Your god sure did an about face when Paul needed to excuse this god for not doing anything and now with Alma making the same excuse in the Book of Mormon.  We go from a god that does miracles, and his “son” supposedly even says believe in the miracles even if you can’t believe in him; to a god that now needs only “faith”.  You and your fellow Mormons aren’t any more based on reality than a Baptist, or a Hindu or any other religious person.

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I have read the word of God and had a desire to know if they were true.  That desire took me to have faith by praying to know.  Many times I have prayed for confirmations concerning God, Jesus Christ, and commandments and I have received witnesses by the Holy Ghost.

These witnesses that have helped me know that God is real, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, and that we are God's children are more real to me than if God had, with an audible voice, spoke to me.

I know God is real and He is my father.  Not because of logic but because I have exercised faith.

Funny how others can claim that the good ol’ Holy Spirit did things for them too and get completely different answers. Why would that happen?
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Offline Boots

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Re: I know God lives through faith and the Holy Ghost
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2012, 02:13:19 PM »
I haven't really ever given much thought to try and logically prove that God lives.

I have however come to know that God truly is real.  I know that God is my Heavenly Father and I am His son.

How do I know this?

Through a basic principle called faith.

"...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

I have read the word of God and had a desire to know if they were true.  That desire took me to have faith by praying to know.  Many times I have prayed for confirmations concerning God, Jesus Christ, and commandments and I have received witnesses by the Holy Ghost.

These witnesses that have helped me know that God is real, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, and that we are God's children are more real to me than if God had, with an audible voice, spoke to me.

I know God is real and He is my father.  Not because of logic but because I have exercised faith.

Garrett,  two things.
1) You should be made aware (if you are not already) that the human brain has evolved in such a way as to always "complete patterns."  There have been many studies done on this phenomenon which I'm too lazy and to cite (sorry, sue me), but if you've ever seen those pictures that could be different things but really aren't anything, that's an example.  It's a survival mechanism that we still experience all the time; it's why people see Jesus in toast and George Washington in potato chips and other such nonesense.  Our experiences and expectations significantly inform these pattern completions.  Basically, we see what we want/expect to see even when it's not there.  This happens to every human, and it has happened to you.  My best guess is that they happend to you every time you prayed/"received witness."

2) Here is a post of mine from a few years back.  It may give you something to think about . . . I invite (nay encourage!!) you to read it.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=1326.0
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline dctrtuba

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #123 on: March 06, 2012, 01:48:11 AM »
I'm not here to debate.
There are a lot of Christians who believe in God.
There are also a good number who have seen what they believe in.
There's no refuting that kind of proof. 
If you're staring at someone in the face.....it's pretty hard to disprove that the person is there.
Human reason/philosophy is pointless, when it comes to understanding things that we really have no business debating about.
I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding. 
You aren't going to always have tangible facts.  But there are ways to get them.  Your heart has to be open, otherwise, all that you will have to rely on are useless musings of the mind.  That won't help you...take it or leave it.
There's a very good reason why we have to go looking for truth.  Truth is a treasure to be found. 
Figuratively speaking, eyes have two states....closed and open.
That's all that I can say.  I am a very cerebral person.  However, there's no going back to trusting my education, after my eyes were opened.  All that I can tell you, is that the Bible is not lying about what it says.  It up to you, and your heart to go find what I already know to be truth.  If you truly give God a chance, and open your heart to Him, you'll see that I'm very much telling the truth.  Let me tell you, the spiritual realm is initially an extremely frightening experience.  If you're not open, all that you'll ever know is your intellect, and this dying world.   I didn't make the rules.  Ask God, if you are upset that things aren't designed the way that you want them to be.


Offline voodoo child

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #124 on: March 06, 2012, 01:53:55 AM »
way too many gods not any evidence for any of them. If people like to turn off their brain to reality so be it.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 02:11:15 AM by voodoo child »
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Online Aaron123

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #125 on: March 06, 2012, 02:08:31 AM »
I'm not here to debate.
There are a lot of Christians who believe in God.
There are also a good number who have seen what they believe in.
There's no refuting that kind of proof. 
If you're staring at someone in the face.....it's pretty hard to disprove that the person is there.

There are a lot of muslims who believe in Allah.
There are also a good number who have seen what they believe in.
There's no refuting that kind of proof. 

There are a lot of Hindus who believe in Shiva.
There are also a good number who have seen what they believe in.
There's no refuting that kind of proof. 


Which one do I go with?


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Human reason/philosophy is pointless, when it comes to understanding things that we really have no business debating about.
I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding. 


Arguing from ignorant.


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You aren't going to always have tangible facts.  But there are ways to get them.  Your heart has to be open, otherwise, all that you will have to rely on are useless musings of the mind.  That won't help you...take it or leave it.

This is little more than a thinly-veiled plead to believe in god.


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There's a very good reason why we have to go looking for truth.  Truth is a treasure to be found. 
Figuratively speaking, eyes have two states....closed and open.
That's all that I can say.  I am a very cerebral person.  However, there's no going back to trusting my education, after my eyes were opened.  All that I can tell you, is that the Bible is not lying about what it says.  It up to you, and your heart to go find what I already know to be truth.  If you truly give God a chance, and open your heart to Him, you'll see that I'm very much telling the truth.  Let me tell you, the spiritual realm is initially an extremely frightening experience.  If you're not open, all that you'll ever know is your intellect, and this dying world. 


Appealing to woo, appealing to guilt, appealing to emotions, appealing to consequences... nothing of substance.


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I didn't make the rules.  Ask God, if you are upset that things aren't designed the way that you want them to be.

Considering that I don't believe that god exists, asking him about something would be rather silly, wouldn't it?  Kinda like asking Harry Potter why I can't use magic and fly on broomsticks.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 02:17:45 AM by Aaron123 »
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #126 on: March 06, 2012, 08:03:55 AM »
Hi, Doctor Tuba, welcome to WWGHA.  I suspect you're going to be a "drive-by", but I'll respond anyway, as I need the practice.

I'm not here to debate.

Then I suggest you read the rules before posting further.  Preaching is not permitted here, and if you make claims, you will be expected to make an attempt to back them up.

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There are a lot of Christians who believe in God.

Really?  I thought all Christians were atheists.    &)

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There are also a good number who have seen what they believe in.

No doubt there are, but, contrary to how the old saying goes, "seeing is not believing", or at least it shouldn't be.  The human mind is not nearly so accurate in its perception of the world as most people think it is.  It is surprisingly easy to see things that don't exist -- and I'm not just talking about drugs, either.

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There's no refuting that kind of proof.

Actually, there is, but it requires being willing to examine things objectively.

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If you're staring at someone in the face.....it's pretty hard to disprove that the person is there.

Have you ever heard of pareidolia?  If not, I'd recommend you read up on it a bit.  It's but one of the many ways that one can be seeing a face that isn't really there.

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Human reason/philosophy is pointless, when it comes to understanding things that we really have no business debating about.

What would some such things be?

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I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding.

Like what?  If you want to tell me, for example, that I have no business holding strong opinions about molecular biology, I'll readily agree because my understanding of that field is quite limited.  If you demand my silence on certain other matters, however, you will receive an objection.  (A hint for you, if you're talking about what I think you're talking about: I majored in philosophy, and I finished with an A-minus average.  And even at that, I wouldn't even say that I'm the best-informed WWGHA regular on the subject, either.)

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You aren't going to always have tangible facts.  But there are ways to get them.

Indeed there are.  Unfortunately, you don't seem to realize them.

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Your heart has to be open, otherwise, all that you will have to rely on are useless musings of the mind.  That won't help you...take it or leave it.

Can you name any other objective truths that were discovered and universally agreed on by people "having open hearts" and refusing to use their intellect?  For example, was Neptune discovered by monks praying and having its existence revealed to them in a dream, or was it discovered by people examining the behavior of Uranus, realizing that another planet must be causing anomalies in that behavior, and pointing their telescopes at the part of the sky where that other planet said the mathematics said the planet would probably be found?

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There's a very good reason why we have to go looking for truth.  Truth is a treasure to be found.

That doesn't even make any sense.

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Figuratively speaking, eyes have two states....closed and open.

No, actually, there are quite a few more than that: nearsighted, farsighted, astigmatic, cataractic...

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That's all that I can say.  I am a very cerebral person.

The first sentence seems to contradict the second one.  (And by the way, truly cerebral people don't say that they are.)

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However, there's no going back to trusting my education, after my eyes were opened.

"I've already made up my mind!  Don't confuse the issue with facts!"

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All that I can tell you, is that the Bible is not lying about what it says.

Which part is it telling the truth about?  That snakes and donkeys can talk?  That bats are birds?  That rabbits chew the cud?  That insects have four legs?  Those are the easy ones.

There are others that aren't instantly recognizable as lies, but can be determined to be so after minimal research: that there was a flood that covered the entire planet, that it was ridden out by a family in a 450-foot long boat, that half a million people (conservatively estimated) wandered around the Sinai desert for forty years.

There are also lies of different natures as well.  A number of the books in the new testament, for example, are known to be forgeries (1 Peter and 2 Peter being the most obvious examples).

There are other things, too, that can't be called "lies", exactly, but which should nonetheless horrify you.  Check Deuteronomy for the various "remedies" that are prescribed for sexual assault, for example.  In our society, fines and/or imprisonment are generally agreed to be the proper response.  Requiring the victim to marry her rapist?  Not so much -- but it's what Yahweh commands.

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It up to you, and your heart to go find what I already know to be truth.

No, if you want me to believe it, it is up to you to convince me.

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If you truly give God a chance, and open your heart to Him, you'll see that I'm very much telling the truth.

Listen, friend: most of the atheists here are former believers.  (I happen to be an exception, but that's a separate discussion.)  And they weren't casual believers, either, they were very serious about it.  When they felt their faith slipping, they were tremendously distraught.  Many of them prayed and prayed and prayed, explicitly telling Yahweh that they felt their faith fading and imploring him to give them strength, to give them some kind of a sign, so that they wouldn't stop believing in him.  Yahweh utterly ignored them, with the result that they ended up going thru months and even years of emotional anguish in coming to disbelief.

It is extraordinarily presumptuous of you to stroll in here on your very first post and assume that no one here has ever "given Yahweh a chance".  We all have.  More than once.

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Let me tell you, the spiritual realm is initially an extremely frightening experience.

Please define "the spiritual realm".  Do not use weasel words.

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If you're not open, all that you'll ever know is your intellect, and this dying world.

Reality exists whether I want it to or not.  There's no such thing as things that exist, or phenomena that happen, only if I "open my heart to them".  If I step on a tack, it will hurt my foot, even if I didn't know the tack was there.  Why should Yahweh be any different?

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Ask God, if you are upset that things aren't designed the way that you want them to be.

And on Easter morning, should I also ask the Easter Bunny why I didn't get any candy?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline changeling

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #127 on: March 06, 2012, 08:26:59 AM »
I seriously doubt that we will see dctrtuba again.
He probably went back to his pajama party all giggly about
giving those atheists what for.

Moderator edit: no need to change member name.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:35:13 PM by jetson »
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline kin hell

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #128 on: March 06, 2012, 09:16:58 AM »
I'm not here to debate.
So you've come here to preach to non-believers .......well reap what you sow you presumptuous git.

your dogma chased your catechism up each others one-eyed holiness.
 your ability to debate (apart from at mass) has subsequently left the building.

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There are a lot of Christians who believe in God.
And many many more who only pretend to.

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There are also a good number who have seen what they believe in.
I feel sorry for your abused cattle. Although I guess if god is everywhere he's just as likely to be there.
"You found god where Homes? 
 ....it's alimentary my dear Watson"

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There's no refuting that kind of proof. 
True.  Bullshit will always prove to be Bullshit.

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If you're staring at someone in the face.....it's pretty hard to disprove that the person is there.
More bullshit and why you are getting it so confused 
Exodus 33:20 and 33:23
Quote from: biblegod
"Butt" he said "you cannot see my face, for no-one may see me and live......"
".....Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back parts: butt my face shall not be seen."
....just leave your cattle alone....

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Human reason/philosophy is pointless,
...only to those who can't

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when it comes to understanding things that we really have no business debating about.
...much better to just insert ones sorry arsed head up the nearest bullish bovine's bunghole  and believe you have found your god.

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I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding. 
...you seem to forget, oh pointyhead, that you are the practitioner of non-reason, not us.
It is your job to have no understanding, it is ours to watch you practise whatever form of moronism it is you choose to use instead of reality.
We will continue to think and consider long after you've gullibly adopted your faith's no-think prerequisite.

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You aren't going to always have tangible facts. 
Can you describe an intangible fact for me so I'll know it when I meet it.


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But there are ways to get them.

But I bet they those ways aren't as much fun as the ways to get an STD

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Your heart has to be open, otherwise, all that you will have to rely on are useless musings of the mind.
I knew it.  Nowhere near as much fun..
 
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That won't help you...take it or leave it.
If I can't have any fun, I think I'll pass.

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There's a very good reason why we have to go looking for truth.
Yeah somebody has to be the blind in the blind leading the blind.

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Truth is a treasure to be found. 
and a fool and his money are soon parted.

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Figuratively speaking, eyes have two states....closed and open.
Figuratively speaking
There are only n kinds of people in the world the rational numbers and the irrational numbnuts. The open minded and the closed minded.

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That's all that I can say. 
That's total bullshit

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I am a very cerebral person. 
The nut inside the nut, nutting stuff out about the nuttiness of not knowing nuttin'. Butternut

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However, there's no going back to trusting my education, after my eyes were opened.
I am so inexpressibly glad you are not here to debate.
Dumb, and proud of it, is not a convincing arguement.

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All that I can tell you, is that the Bible is not lying about what it says.
Excellent I'll rush out then and start killing homosexuals,
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
 and fortunetellers,
    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
 and people who've hit their parents,   
 Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
 and of course anyone who has cursed their parents.
    1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

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It up to you, and your heart to go find what I already know to be truth. 
Why do me and my heart have to go out and find what you know to be truth, haven't you just left your stomach bile truth right here on the floor?
Hey look, I can see the carrots and the schtick both.

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If you truly give God a chance,

Fuck off, I am not here to debate you, just fuck the fuck right off.

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and open your heart to Him, you'll see that I'm very much telling the truth.

More bullshit

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Let me tell you, the spiritual realm is initially an extremely frightening experience.

Yeah and your cattle hate it even more so.
Theist cowboys crooning restful ballads hoping the source of all knowledge won't stampede before they get a chance to wrest their weary heads.

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If you're not open, all that you'll ever know is your intellect,
Don't worry you've managed to make my intellect a much "lesser" evil listening to your presumptuous preaching

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and this dying world. 

...would you please make some attempt of getting your story straight
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.Ecclesiastes 1:4


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I didn't make the rules.
neither did your silly god invention

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Ask God, if you are upset that things aren't designed the way that you want them to be.
Why would I bother?
Your god is still sulking that a monkey did write the entire works of Shakespeare.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #129 on: March 06, 2012, 09:25:29 AM »
Damn Kin, if you don't start a compilation of these treasures, I' gonna. So many gems in one post!

your dogma chased your catechism up each others one-eyed holiness.
There are only n kinds of people in the world the rational numbers and the irrational numbnuts.
       The open minded and the closed minded.
The nut inside the nut, nutting stuff out about the nuttiness of not knowing nuttin'. Butternut
Theist cowboys crooning restful ballads hoping the source of all knowledge won't stampede
       before they get a chance to wrest their weary heads.
Your god is still sulking that a monkey did write the entire works of Shakespeare.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2012, 10:23:59 AM »
I'm not here to debate.
There are a lot of Christians who believe in God.
There are also a good number who have seen what they believe in.
There's no refuting that kind of proof. 
Sure there is, lots of refuting of people who have no evidence at all.   All theists make claims about their gods and none of them have evidence.  So, by yuor claims, we can think that any god, that has a person claiming that they are real, is just as valid as any other god, even the Christian one. 

And of course, more claims that we can't "understand" such nonsense that spews from the mouths of theists.  Having been one, that's not hard at all.   You are anything but a "very cerebral person" if you make baseless claims and are too ignorant to realize your arguments would mean that all gods are real.  Plus we get the usual claims of how the theist in question, you, have some magical formula to contact god and get him in your "heart".   So, what's your way, other than your vague claims of opening your heart.  I have, have prayed when losing my faith and tah-dah, your god has failed to show me it exists ever single time.   You have "made the rules", Tuba, because your version of god is just one more made up by one more Christian. 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Boots

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2012, 10:47:41 AM »
Dammit.  It seems like every time I make (what I believe to be) a relevant point or ask a good question, it gets hijacked by some nutter, or ignored.  I'm just *sniff* not good enough . . .   :'(

Edit: No, I ain't lettin' this one go.

You know drtuba, if you looked up ONE POST from the one you posted, you'll see that I already addressed the fact that we humans do, sometimes--in fact, often--perceive things that arent' there.  Just like I myself did, as described in the link I provided IN THAT SAME GORAM POST.

But since you're not here to debate, ie. you're not hear to learn, I fully expect you not to even be reading THIS, let alone other stuff you've already missed.  Jackass.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 10:59:09 AM by Boots »
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2012, 11:40:08 AM »
kin, you need to rely a little less on quoting when you rant. No matter how much fodder they provide, there is no need to go all academic on us. A wall of words is a wall of words. We've seen it all before. It's your response we're interested in.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No matter. I managed to read between the lines so I made you a karma apple anyway. Great fun!



Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline bgb

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2012, 11:50:28 AM »
God, how I love this forum!!!   ;D
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline kin hell

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2012, 04:06:41 PM »
Thanks for the kind words folks

The "I'm not here to debate" precursor to preaching is just so mindbogglingly unacceptable, it's like a trigger.


Anyway  really glad you enjoyed it, it's great to gouge some value from these drive-by tossers.

My personal favourite was (shamelessly still smiling to myself) ;)


Quote
There's a very good reason why we have to go looking for truth.
Yeah somebody has to be the blind in the blind leading the blind.

again thanks
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline dctrtuba

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #135 on: March 07, 2012, 07:25:33 PM »
Thanks very much for the feedback.  I don't appreciate being cussed out for offering an opinion though.  Guys, you have to learn to express your beliefs without insulting the other person.  You also have to learn to respect other people's opinions.  Oh well.  I thought this somewhere to come, where one can be respected.  Apparently not.  This is just a bashing forum. 

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #136 on: March 07, 2012, 07:36:11 PM »
So, if anyone would like to shed some light on this, like “maybe all those prophecies have been manipulated after they actually happened” either way, I think WWII allowed Jews to return to their holly land, which is something pretty much unique in history

I believe the Old Testament prophets promised that all 12 tribes would return to Israel. Only two have returned, Judah and Benjamin. There is not a trace of the other 10. Either they never existed in the first place or were so absorbed into the surrounding cultures that their identity was completed lost. Either way, where does that leave the promise you cite? Consider also the fact that present day Israel occupies only a tiny sliver of the land that was supposed to have been granted to them by the God of the Bible.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline jetson

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #137 on: March 07, 2012, 07:39:37 PM »
Thanks very much for the feedback.  I don't appreciate being cussed out for offering an opinion though.  Guys, you have to learn to express your beliefs without insulting the other person.  You also have to learn to respect other people's opinions.  Oh well.  I thought this somewhere to come, where one can be respected.  Apparently not.  This is just a bashing forum.

I'm sorry you were bashed.  Can you consider that what you offered did not sound like an opinion?  It sounded more like preaching, and factual remarks about things that the atheists here would simply not accept based on your assertion.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #138 on: March 07, 2012, 07:47:09 PM »
Thanks very much for the feedback.  I don't appreciate being cussed out for offering an opinion though.  Guys, you have to learn to express your beliefs without insulting the other person.  You also have to learn to respect other people's opinions.  Oh well.  I thought this somewhere to come, where one can be respected.  Apparently not.  This is just a bashing forum.

The offending post was looked at, as per you report, and action was taken. This is how this forum works. I think the team did a fair job of getting to it quickly, too. That's the business side of this and I thought it was bang up

As a regular member, I'll echo what Jetson said. Opinions are written certain ways, and what you wrote did not include the hallmarks I would expect to see in one.

Furthermore, why should I respect your opinions? I don't think I should respect your opinion, so much as I respect your right to have one. There's a difference, IMO.

In my culture, many folks use a lot of profanity in common speech. Can you get beyond that and show some understanding? Not sure if the poster you are referring to comes from such a culture, but does this respect thing go two fucking ways, or what?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline dctrtuba

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #139 on: March 07, 2012, 07:52:36 PM »
Yes, but I didn't mean to insult anyone.
I have had lots of conversations with athiests, and they offer very well thought-out concepts.
It was nice to see some of the people actually give constructive criticism for what I said. 
I wasn't trying to preach at all, and was looking for an athiest's perspective....which I did get from a couple of people.  That was awesome.
I went through a very long time in my life where I studied the heck out of science and philosophy.  Everyone will come up with a different conclusion, because there is so much information to consider.  What is important, is to gather all of the information, then make a decision.
I'm more than willing to put down my beliefs and listen....as I did when I spent time discussing beliefs with athiests.  Yes, I should've worded my post differently.  And there a difference between just cussing, and being cussed AT.  The latter is what I have a problem with.
Since I was insulted so badly, I'm deleting my account. 
I hope that everyone has a nice afternoon.  I mean no insult to anyone, or anyone's beliefs.

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #140 on: March 07, 2012, 08:02:29 PM »
Thanks very much for the feedback.  I don't appreciate being cussed out for offering an opinion though.  Guys, you have to learn to express your beliefs without insulting the other person.  You also have to learn to respect other people's opinions.  Oh well.  I thought this somewhere to come, where one can be respected.  Apparently not.  This is just a bashing forum.

You were lecturing us, dctrtuba. You were talking down to us. It was not you saying that it was your opinion, it was you saying that it was fact and that we are doing it wrong.

You are entitled to your views, of course. There are better ways to get them across then saying to a bunch of people who adamantly disagree with you that"I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding. "

That is not peaceful talk. That is not a casual observation. That is not sweetness and light and jesus loves us level conversation. You were saying point blank that you are right, we are wrong, and you left no room for discussion. You also jumped into the middle of a discussion without addressing any of the issues.

But you did say you were "Not here to debate".

Well, we're not here to pussyfoot around with people who swear there is a loving god but act like bullies. Or at least I'm not.

Addendum:

As I wrote this, I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding.  posted something reasonable and then disappeared. Had he used that frame of mind and tone perhaps we could have had some interesting discussions. We wouldn't have agreed on much, I'm sure, but we could have kept things civil.

C'est la vie.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #141 on: March 07, 2012, 08:07:24 PM »
Thanks very much for the feedback.

Quote
I don't appreciate being cussed out for offering an opinion though.

I respectfully submit that you should make an effort to grow a thicker skin.  If you participate in Internet discussion forums, you're going to get far worse than what you got here.  Someone once called me a "fucking moron" because I had never heard of Socotra Island.  Better get used to that kind of thing.

Quote
Guys, you have to learn to express your beliefs without insulting the other person.

I am not aware of any civil rights movement that ever made any progress in getting injustice redressed by being unremittingly courteous and deferential.

Quote
You also have to learn to respect other people's opinions.

That depends on what the opinions actually are, doesn't it?  Do you respect the opinions of white supremacists, for example?  (Or, if you are a white supremacist, do you respect the opinions of the civil rights activists of the Sixties?)

Or perhaps you're saying that religious opinions should always be treated with respect?  You believe that, unlike any other type of doctrine, religion deserves its own suit of armor?

Quote
Oh well.  I thought this somewhere to come, where one can be respected.  Apparently not.  This is just a bashing forum.

I don't see that you've been bashed.  Actually, you received a reasonably warm reception.  (Granted, you were challenged on what you were saying, but you should have expected that.)  The people who get bashed are the ones who tell us that we are going to spend all eternity being ass-raped in hell by demons -- sometimes adding that they intend to murder us so that our punishment may begin as soon as possible.  People who do that get it in the chest from us with both barrels -- metaphorically speaking, of course.  You weren't like that, so you didn't.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Babdah

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #142 on: March 07, 2012, 08:09:51 PM »
I went through a very long time in my life where I studied the heck out of science and philosophy.  Everyone will come up with a different conclusion, because there is so much information to consider.

 I spent many years studying the bible and trying to understand, but the problem came when i started reading other myths in the world and seen recurring themes that I know are not fact in anyway shape or form.

What is important, is to gather all of the information, then make a decision.

Have you considered this? Have you taken time to try and figure out what these "spiritual beings" are? Or have you chalked it up to god.

I'm more than willing to put down my beliefs and listen....as I did when I spent time discussing beliefs with athiests.

Then what is the point if you just listen and not consider that your beliefs are in fact just the same as say the greek gods or even the hindus?


 
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

Offline jetson

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #143 on: March 07, 2012, 09:15:11 PM »
Yes, but I didn't mean to insult anyone.
I have had lots of conversations with athiests, and they offer very well thought-out concepts.
It was nice to see some of the people actually give constructive criticism for what I said. 
I wasn't trying to preach at all, and was looking for an athiest's perspective....which I did get from a couple of people.  That was awesome.
I went through a very long time in my life where I studied the heck out of science and philosophy.  Everyone will come up with a different conclusion, because there is so much information to consider.  What is important, is to gather all of the information, then make a decision.
I'm more than willing to put down my beliefs and listen....as I did when I spent time discussing beliefs with athiests.  Yes, I should've worded my post differently.  And there a difference between just cussing, and being cussed AT.  The latter is what I have a problem with.
Since I was insulted so badly, I'm deleting my account. 
I hope that everyone has a nice afternoon.  I mean no insult to anyone, or anyone's beliefs.

No one wants you to leave the forum, but of course you are free to stop posting if this doesn't suit your style.  You can also choose to take a look around, get to know some of the members a little, participate in the current discussions, and read some of the old ones when you can.  Keep in mind that there are theists, and former theists here as well.

Consider our initial approach, and what others have said to you about it.

Offline Boots

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #144 on: March 07, 2012, 09:16:01 PM »
Yes, but I didn't mean to insult anyone.
I have had lots of conversations with athiests, and they offer very well thought-out concepts.
It was nice to see some of the people actually give constructive criticism for what I said. 

Well, dctrtuba, I flung a direct insult your way because what you posted was already addressed in my post just above yours.  I suppose it was hypocritical of me to jump on you for not reading the whole thread when I did the same thing.  You have my apologies for that.

that being said, I respectfully request you read my post just before your first one, addressing your argument that you can't argue against things you see/hear/feel, because you certainly CAN.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces