Probabilities of God's existence debate

[monkeymind]

Monkeymind: The Ezekiel argument is not serious monkeymind, hyper religiosity is something you cannot relate to Ezekiel, and compared to others, like Daniel (for example) you get to see a huge difference; hypergraphia is also not really something you can accuse this guy of, because he only wrote one book, which is shorter than Harry Potter or pretty much any novel. This book is formed by different revelations he received in different times, so... are you implying he shouldn't write them?

Now, this of Ezekiel being unable to speak is not described as such in the bible. It would be more like he didn't speak when people was going to visit him unless God told him to say something. Whenever he had to say something he would, instead, go and tell what he had to tell to people.

Finally, this “doctor” also did the same with Samson, he is trying to become famous, and that’s it. As for evolution, I would like you to brief me of what you know of evolution, thanks by the way, for being a worth contributor to the topic.


Jaimehlers: Man, most people don’t know of the errors in the bible, most people don’t even read the bible. Do you think that will prevent them from going to heaven if God exists?
As for Occam’s razor, you just have to consider evolution before choosing “where to cut”, let’s see what Monkeymind have to say about that particular subject.

I was pulling your chain about Ezekiel hitting his head, but serious about him being wrong about the time of Jerusalem getting sacked.

We can talk about evolution, but not here. Of course in my opinion the probabilities of a creator are 0 because evolution answers all the questions about the history of life on earth through heredity, mutation and natural selection. Start a thread in the appropriate section (Evolution & Creationism) and we can discuss it there.

[monkeymind]

BTW Augusto, My sister is Muslim and my best friend is Muslim. My other family members are all Christian. I love them all, and I am equally tough on their beliefs. I just think it is silly to believe in anything supernatural.

I have a brother in law that is a conspiracy theorist and believes aliens control our world. I'm tough on those beliefs too.

My wife is a new ager who believes in homeopathy and the law of attraction. I am equally tough on those beliefs.

The common thread: No reason to believe anything without evidence. Nearly everything can be explained as part of nature and virtual nothing supernatural can be confirmed. What can't be explained (YET) it's easy for me to say "I don't Know."

[Astreja]

Astreja, you don't need to pray, you can just limit yourself to believe and do something good just for the sake of it.

Augusto, I don't need to "limit Myself to believe" in order to do good in the world.  I have never believed in your god, and I know that I've done far more good than bad in My lifetime.  Your belief and your deity are surplus to My requirements.

I don’t know you, but let's say you are capable of adopting a child, or at least a homeless dog. DO IT, then keep on with your life...

Been there, done that.  All of My 7 cats are former alley cats, or the offspring of former alley cats.  (Freyja, Mama Cat to 5 of the kittehs, is no longer with My household.   )

...later on, decide if you want to say you did it in the name of God, or in the name of random chaos, or just because you are good.

I can't think of a single good reason to say why I did _________.  It's enough that it got done.  I can state unequivocally that I refuse to give someone else credit for My own actions, as I wouldn't give them the blame either.

I can tell you this: if you do mostly bad things, eventually your own heart will accuse you, and you will feel bad for things you did...

This tends to be the case with most individuals who experienced good nurturing and early childhood development.  It isn't universal, though.  People with psychological conditions such as psychopathy and narcissistic personality disorder do not tend to be remorseful.

...and , your actions will have their weight in your soul...

Soul?  Weight?  You mean, like weighing the heart against Ma'at's feather in order to enter the Egyptian afterlife? 

Truth is, you don’t have to pray at all, whenever you see a sunset, or get a loving kiss, you can simply say “thanks God”, you don’t even need to say it, it is enough if you feel it, and if you show you are grateful with your actions, to make this world a better place, and to let others share your joy. If you do this, you should be ending up believing in God, and you will know for sure you have not been under hypnotism.

Augusto, I am 54 years old.  I have been awed by many things in this world:  Double rainbows; aurora borealis; the view from the top of Mt. Saint-Hilaire, Quebec; Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky performed live by a symphony orchestra and a choir; and a total eclipse of the sun on a clear, bitterly cold day in Winnipeg in February 1979.

I've won amazing battles after multiple failures, and I've had unnervingly close calls where the wrong decision -- Or a decision put off till the morning --  would have cost Me My life.  I've given birth.  I've kept deathbed vigils.

I don't need your god, for I have the entire universe.

[ParkingPlaces]

...and a total eclipse of the sun on a clear, bitterly cold day in Winnipeg in February 1979.

I must be a sinner. It was cloudy on that day in Oregon. All I got to see was the streetlights turn on in the middle of the morning.

[Astreja]

...and a total eclipse of the sun on a clear, bitterly cold day in Winnipeg in February 1979.

I must be a sinner. It was cloudy on that day in Oregon. All I got to see was the streetlights turn on in the middle of the morning.

Nah.  You just didn't do what I did:  I spent a day or so hunched over a kitchen table with a bunch of very odd reference books (Golden Dawn; Key of Solomon the King; that kind of stuff) and a bottle of India ink, creating an amulet for the express purpose of clearing the skies over Winnipeg.

Seriously.  This was in My über-woo days, and I actually did that in the run-up to the 1979 eclipse.  I saw the first star break through the clouds at about 9 p.m. on the night of February 25, the day before the eclipse. By the time the eclipse started, there wasn't a cloud in sight.

Of course, this caused such a disruption in the meteorological system that it was followed by 3 solid months of cloudy days...  Don't try this at home, kids. 

[ParkingPlaces]

I couldn't woo my way out of a wet paper bag. Good on you for using the force. 

[Add Homonym]

Not that I believe the prophecy anyway, because it is not written clearly, and requires many spin on old books:

Did the Jews return to their holly[sic] land? The Palestinians are the original Jews, but converted to Islam. The diaspora was composed of Roman genetics, and the mitochondria from 4 palestinian women. The Jews then changed their religion. If you don't sacrifice cattle, you are not a Jew. Either the Jews never left the holly[sic] land, or they never came back.

[monkeymind]

Good morning Augusto:

I hope you don't mind me asking. Are you Persian? You "sound" a lot like my Persian friend.

[Graybeard]

You should just let the Holy Spirit to guide you, ...it's pretty simple actually because every human being knows what is good,

If every human knows what is good, why do we need a guide?

[Augusto]

Monkeymind: Not Persian, just not from USA.

Astreja: I cannot say anything to that except: "You've earned my respect"

Add Homonym: Could you explain this?

If every human knows what is good, why do we need a guide?

Hello Sir, the answer is simple: There is good and there is evil, and we humans can experience both, we can act driven by either, Jesus asks us to do what’s good and ignore evil.

Imagine there were a religion talking of selfishness and hate, well... there is actually, but we are not talking about religions, more like "probabilities of God's existence", let me know if you're interested in taking part of this debate, and if you are, please read my previous posts.

[shnozzola]

Perhaps I shouldn’t bring this up in this thread, but, as far as the evolution debate goes, it is sad how closed minded creationists are, especially when evolution, unlike the existence of some type of a “god”, is proven, accepted, and moving on for people who read and study the science behind it .  The thing creationists miss is the vast amount of time needed, and frankly, I have become very much more in awe, understanding  the randomness that led to all I can observe, than thinking some kind of perfect omnipotence is responsible.

[12 Monkeys]

Monkeymind: Not Persian, just not from USA.

Astreja: I cannot say anything to that except: "You've earned my respect"

Add Homonym: Could you explain this?

If every human knows what is good, why do we need a guide?

Hello Sir, the answer is simple: There is good and there is evil, and we humans can experience both, we can act driven by either, Jesus asks us to do what’s good and ignore evil.

Imagine there were a religion talking of selfishness and hate, well... there is actually, but we are not talking about religions, more like "probabilities of God's existence", let me know if you're interested in taking part of this debate, and if you are, please read my previous posts.

how did a perfect being make a mistake and allow evil in the first place?

[12 Monkeys]

There is an interrogative sentence and an afirmative sentence, the first talks of an insect, the second talks of a random organism and not about... thank you for that precious piece of trolling.

You know guys? maybe I am in the wrong place, I don't want you to provoque me, causing us all a bad time without reason. I wish you all luck in your worship to "Random", the god of yours.

Let me know by PM if there is anyone that want to represent the atheist side on a debate, if there is, "good", if there isn't "good too", but I'm stopping this open troll topic right now, at least consider me out.

oooooooooooooh such tough talk ....also you dont believe in religion......so don't you just have a random God?

[changeling]

^^^He doesn't have a religion, he has a relationship don't ya know.

[monkeymind]

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt Augusto. I thought you said that you were Muslim (somewhere in this thread) so I threw you an olive branch. It was also a way for me to determine more about you in an attempt to understand your point of view. Perhaps off topic (but in an attempt to more easily address the topic in a way you would understand) ...BUT definitely not trolling.

BTW Augusto, My sister is Muslim and my best friend is Muslim. My other family members are all Christian. I love them all, and I am equally tough on their beliefs. I just think it is silly to believe in anything supernatural.

I have a brother in law that is a conspiracy theorist and believes aliens control our world. I'm tough on those beliefs too.

My wife is a new ager who believes in homeopathy and the law of attraction. I am equally tough on those beliefs.

The common thread: No reason to believe anything without evidence. Nearly everything can be explained as part of nature and virtual nothing supernatural can be confirmed. What can't be explained (YET) it's easy for me to say "I don't Know."

Then I said this:

Good morning Augusto:
I hope you don't mind me asking. Are you Persian? You "sound" a lot like my Persian friend.

How is that racial?

[Alzael]

Let's wait then, such person have not posted in here yet. I sent you a PM jetson, about the flamming, spamming, trolling and offtopic that is going on in here. I'm sure you'll be able to see it by yourself. I would like to ask you to keep an eye in here, because, you know... basically I'm a muslim in islamic territory, and people like to break the rules against me because I'm new in the comunity, and because I'm different.

Pretty much like in school. May I count on you to keep an eye and guarantee everyone (and not just me) follow the rules?

The persecution card? Gee, I've never seen a theist play that one before. 

Alzael: I don't know what you mean by preaching, but it's nice you are doing your work, have you found anyone else in here breaking the rules, or just me? Thanks in advance.

Don't try to make smart ass comments to the mods. You don't have the skills for it.

[Augusto]

Alzael: Depends on the mod, because I "shouldn't" need any skill to convince anyone to follow the rules, should I? (like this offtopic post of yours).

Monkeymind: Perhaps I made a mistake, If I did, I apologize in all honesty.

In general, I apologize for showing myself not so friendly, but as you all might see, I've got 9 negative Darwins already, and if you check the reasons for that, and the number of haters I'm getting you'll be able to understand. So, maybe I am or I have been acting in a bad way to some of you, but I ask for a little of understanding, just picture yourself talking about God's non-existence in a church and you will be able to understand my position in this partially intollerant comunity.

So, once again, thanks to those who have decided to act in a civil, intelligent and open way, and my apology to those who have been or feel attacked by me in any way without justification, because I cannot know for sure who is who in the little time I have been amongst you.

[monkeymind]

Apology accepted!

[kin hell]

>snip< 
I had one question to God, which was "what is your porpoise for people who are born with deformities?" and I got my answer.
>snip<

my bold

Obviously you were praying to the Roman god Mercury

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning

Consumption of whale and dolphin meat, as is the practice in Japan, is a source of high levels of mercury poisoning.

Mercury (hermes) was a trickster god and a thief before he became the messenger he is now known as.
Obviously this merciless (a word coming from his name) deforming and torturing of innocents above (as represented by "do this in my name") was done while he was in his trickster mode.


Oh wait, ....you are saying there are no other gods but your version, and he explained why he does this despicable horror everyday?

A just and loving god (creator of everything) as proven by the suffering and evil that permeates our entire existence?

Surely it would be more rational to argue that the very existence of random suffering and evil indicates there is no just loving and merciful god.

[Augusto]

There is a 1 on 1 debate taking place in the debate room. You should ask Azazel to use your arguments is you think it might be useful, this, because a debate between me and the whole comunity wasn't possible because of different reasons.

[Ate The Ism]

There is a 1 on 1 debate taking place in the debate room. You should ask Azazel to use your arguments is you think it might be useful, this, because a debate between me and the whole comunity wasn't possible because of different reasons.

I'll quote Hitchens here: "I make my living scrutinizing words, it's what I do; not a word of what you said makes any sense to me."

The probability of any god's existence is untestable but when isolating a god we can evaluate the specific claims made by that god. The Judeo-Christian god, being a victim of contradictory manuscripts and no contemporaneous evidence, is much easier to debunk and the probability of this god's existence is maybe 1 per cent.

You could make a "gap" argument, the idea that whatever can't be explained (yet) by science is accredited to faith in a creator. I say, then, what Neil deGrasse Tyson has said in response to Bill o'Reily: "Then god is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that gets smaller and smaller as time goes on."

If you think that there's anything to talk about then you need to make the argument for your god. If you cannot make a sound argument then you and all other religious fanatics need to shut up about it.

[velkyn]

Velkyn: The reason I "dodge" the study of prophecies is because it have been studied already, there is no point in using our time to replicate something that have been already established.

wow, that's quite a fail, Auggie.  Nice ot see you run away from supporting your lies, by claiming that they've already been studied already.  I knwo they have, and I know by yuor ignorance that you haven't a clue about just what has been determined about them. 

About the failure to Jesus to fulfill certain prophecies, it have been discussed before, and it is the way it should happen, either way other prophecies could not become true. For example, if Jesus would have rebuilt the temple in his first coming, Jewish people would have believed in him and another prophesy would have been broken, specifically the one about Jewish and non Jewish people.

  More claims with no support.  IF JC would have fulfilled the prophecies the Jews would have accepted him.  I do enjoy how you then have to re"interpret" other verses to make up some that you claim are about jews and non jewish people. 

It was necessary that Jewish deny the Messiah so his word would come to us. From the logical point of view, Jesus is the only possible Messiah and there is no chance that another Messiah could come today or in the future, and the construction of the temple, for example, is not “excused” by his second coming, but NECESSARY.

ROFL!  No, it was not necessary.  That again comes from more Christian "interpretation" in yuor desperate need to be the "Chosen people". 

As for the rest of your arguments, I find just a problem in explaining everything to you as if this were a religion class, I mean, you need more information. I admire your desire to post on a logic way, but you just need to know more. I wonder if there is someone in here that knows enough.

What a liar.  You make claims, so you need to support them.  This is in essence a religious class and one of the best things about it, is that it shows how ignorant Christians are about the claims they make.  I don't take it in a bad way at all.  YOu do a lovely job in confirming all I know about Christians. 

[moxieman]

Hey guys,
I feel like I'm butting in, but what Augusto initially brought up made some sense to me. I felt like it could have used a little development, so if you don't mind here I go:

    The bible as a text claims that certain events that have not occurred will occur in a particular order. The example I will use comes from the book of Ezekiel. In chapter 5, the narrator acts as God's mouthpiece. God premises that Israel as a nation has been rebellious, and proceeds to claim He will move against them. He spends around three books saying things like "I will scatter you to every corner of the earth," this goes on for a while.

    All this boring stuff, to claim that a people will be scattered and a nation destroyed is no big claim. We've seen this kind of thing happen over and over across history. The prophesy that makes me think, and sometimes wonder, is the one that follows:

After the condemnation, another promise is made: in Ezekiel 11:17, God tells his people that

"I will gather you from the nations and assemble you from the countries over which
you have been scattered, and I will restore to you the land of Israel. "

Which as Augusto pointed out has no historical antecedent, making the logical argument to probability a lot weaker. Then in Ezekiel 36, the promises that are made take a more practical nature. in verses 34-35

"the desolate land shall be tilled, which was formerly a wasteland exposed to the
gaze of every passer-by.  This desolate land has been made into a garden of Eden, they shall say. "The
cities that were in ruins, laid waste, and destroyed are now repeopled and fortified."

     We understand that after the Jewish people returned to Israel, they were met with a wasteland. Swampland had invaded most of their fertile ground in their absence, there was very little water and so on. It was at this point they invented drip irrigation, and now they have these farms stretching over what was once desert and swamp. Now Israel is considered to be the breadbasket of the West.
     The point I would like to consider is the possibility that certain prophesies are true, and what this could imply about the Bible as a whole, and thusly of the probability of God's existence.

Sorry for the long post. It's my first time on a forum like this. I used to be a really devout Christian (I even visited Israel once, which is how I learned about the above) but right now I have to consider the possibility that I was wrong, and I'm hoping I can dialogue intelligently with people about it here. And that's my piece.



 

[monkeymind]

Hey guys,
I feel like I'm butting in, but what Augusto initially brought up made some sense to me. I felt like it could have used a little development, so if you don't mind here I go:

I wouldn't be so quick to agree with Augusto, he went to another forum and was de-converted as a Christian believer, and is now claiming to be an atheist.


I'll read your post in a bit and see if I have something to offer.

[velkyn]

Mox, 

Yep, a claim of scattering and a claim of gathering.  We know that Ezekiel was likely written after the various conquerings of the Israelites. Always nice to write a “prophecy” that already has the events happened.  And considering the number of Jews in American, Europe, Russia, etc. I don’t see them back in anything like the area of what ancient Israel (or Judah) has covered.  Are we still waiting or is it that Christians want to claim something that hasn’t happened yet at all?  It seems that christians want any little bit of evidence for their nonsense to be considered a “fulfillment” when it is anything but that.

Which as Augusto pointed out has no historical antecedent, making the logical argument to probability a lot weaker. Then in Ezekiel 36, the promises that are made take a more practical nature. in verses 34-35
"the desolate land shall be tilled, which was formerly a wasteland exposed to the
gaze of every passer-by.  This desolate land has been made into a garden of Eden, they shall say. "The cities that were in ruins, laid waste, and destroyed are now repeopled and fortified."
We understand that after the Jewish people returned to Israel, they were met with a wasteland. Swampland had invaded most of their fertile ground in their absence, there was very little water and so on. It was at this point they invented drip irrigation, and now they have these farms stretching over what was once desert and swamp. Now Israel is considered to be the breadbasket of the West.

Funny how the Israelis didn’t invent drip irrigation at all.  that was done in Afghanistan in 1866, at Colorado U in the 1910s and in Germany in the 1920s.  And ROFL, what a claim, that Israel is the “Breadbasket of the west”.  Not even remotely, Mox. If you really are questioning your religion, you need to do actual research and not make things up that can so easily be shown to be wrong.  Israel is almost totally dependent on imports for its grain and feed needs: http://www.globaltrade.net/f/market-research/pdf/Israel/Agriculture-Animal-Husbandry-Hunting-Fishing-Israel-Grain-and-Feed-Annual.html . I guess your god has failed rather dramatically.  So, no reason to think that any prophecies have been fulfilled at all. 

[nogodsforme]

[snip]
     We understand that after the Jewish people returned[?] to Israel, they were met with a wasteland. Swampland had invaded most of their fertile ground in their absence [well a lot can happen in 3000 years...], there was very little water and so on. It was at this point they invented drip irrigation, and now they have these farms stretching over what was once desert and swamp. Now Israel is considered to be the breadbasket of the West.
     The point I would like to consider is the possibility that certain prophesies are true, and what this could imply about the Bible as a whole, and thusly of the probability of God's existence.
[snip]
bold and italics mine-ngfm

Arab Palestine under the Ottomans was a "swampy, desert wasteland" the same way that the United States was a barren wasteland when the native people farmed, fished and hunted there. Amazing how thousands of people were able to survive in cities, towns and villages for centuries without water or agriculture. I guess the Europeans showed up just in time.[1]

At least the Israelis bought the land from the Arabs when they first arrived in the 19th century. They didn't start claiming land from the local people by violent conquest in the US style until the 20th century.

In both cases a false narrative was created to excuse colonial incursions. In both cases the colonists called themselves "pioneers" as if they were going into an uninhabited wilderness. In both cases settlers were sent illegally into the other people's territory and were backed up by soldiers when the local people tried to enforce treaties and agreements. If there were no people there, why did conflict break out? With whom were the "pioneers" constantly fighting? And over what?

One last point. The Israelis have worked hard to build a new country since 1948--nobody can argue with that. But it took warfare, acts of dispossession, massive immigration, extreme militarism and billions of US dollars to create and maintain this supposed evidence for biblical prophecy. I did not think that the Promised Land was meant to be a police state.

1.	I mean returned in the case of the Jews with no real connection to the Middle East migrating from Europe. I guess as an African-American I should be able to return to Senegal and claim me some good land...my people were in Africa more recently than the Jewish people's ancestors were in Israel

[freakygin]

Hello...
I'm still new in this forum.
First of all, i'm sorry for my bad english.
English is not my primary language.

Ok, cut to the case, here we go.
I must admit. I'm VERY EXCITED when i found this forum.
To think there is another people who think exactly like me.

OK, here's my problem.

A friend of mine once argued with me on certain topic (Religion of course, Christian to be exact).
Which i really don't give a shit about what she said.
I just don't believe in God, so leave me alone. I'm not forcing her to believe in what i believe anyway (which is Science).
I even say "Okay" when she told me i am going to hell if i don't believe in Jesus.
Then we have a argument.

When i can almost feel i'm going to win that argument.
Then suddenly she beat my argument with this analogy.

One day, there is a scruffy looked man go to a barbershop.
When that man getting shaved and haircut. The barber keep talking about there is no God.
Because this world is not perfect, and thus God is not perfect.
Look at those people in the world. So many suffering.
If there is a God, then he just abandoned his precious creation (Humans).
Bla bla bla (I'm sorry, i can't remember most of it)

And then, after getting shaved, that man go outside for a while and then back to the barbershop.
That man said : "THERE IS NO HAIRDRESSER IN THIS PLACE" to the person who just shaved and cut his hair.
The barber said : "what are you talking about? I'm right here. I just shaved and give u a haircut"
The man replied : "What about those people outside? I see a lot of people with scruffy look"
Barber : "When they look like that, it's not because there is no Hairdresser! It's because they're not coming to see me!"
The man smiled and said : "Exactly! Those people u mentioned before, that doesn't mean God didn't exist. It's just because people are not coming to see Him"

Well, i paused for a while.
I tried to argue more, but it feels like i'm already losing...

Can someone help me to answer that?
I don't like feeling like a loser after she came up with that.

Again, i'm sorry for my bad english.
It's quite difficult to translate everything from your native language to english without missing it's point.

[wright]

Welcome to the forum, freakygin. Actually, your English is pretty good; even your grammar is better than some primary English-speakers we've seen here. Please post an introduction in that sub-forum; I'm always curious about non-US members (I haven't traveled much).

Your Christian friend's argument fails in a number of ways, but the most obvious to me is that no believer can point to physical evidence. To use her analogy, there are a lot of competing barber shops with advertising going back millennia, and all of them claiming to offer the best haircut EVER.

Yet, every single person going into those barber shops comes out just the same as when they went in, without a hair missing. And most of them claim they did get their hair cut.

When an atheist asks how these people know they got haircuts despite having nothing physical to show for it, they say things like "Well, it's all on the inside, so it doesn't show, but once you get one yourself you'll know!"

In other words, no objective evidence. All advertising and some very persuasive receptionists chatting the customers up. No scissors, razors or combs. And people to continue to pay for it! It makes me a little craaaazyyy sometimes... 

[sun_king]

It is my opinion that you refrain from any further discussion, it is pointless. If you absolutely insist...

There are people in the world who have no belief in Jesus and yet live a life of peace and prosperity. The oil rich arabs, the Indians, the Chinese, the Japanese and so on. So apparently Jesus has no monopoly in issuing prosperity. And there are a lot of Christians who suffer, the Jesus protection shield seems to be temporarily disabled.

The man from the barber story just looked around the street. Maybe he missed the ones with immaculately cut hair, the work of other barbers, perhaps even better ones. (David Beckham should have walked by) Maybe he should have seen the Lion (Panthera Leo) who needs no haircut and yet looks majestic.

I am not suggesting that there are other deities, but I have found that Christians are easily annoyed if someone says there is a better god out there and he/she is awesome.

Its amusing that the preachers still churn out such ludicrous stories to lure the gullible, it wont stand a chance against anyone with an ounce of common sense.