Probabilities of God's existence debate

[jaimehlers]

Lemme see if I've got this straight.  Augusto wants to have a clean, civil discussion with members of this forum.  Very laudable.  So he starts out by accusing people of trolling in public, then states that he won't discuss things with people who he decides are trolling, flaming, or whatever.  So instead of abiding by the forum's rules and reporting such individuals who he thinks are breaking those rules (reporting people who are breaking the rules counts as legitimate), he's just going to ignore them instead.  That suggests one of two things; either Augusto didn't read the rules very thoroughly, or he is objecting to the adversarial tone of certain people.

I'm going to give him the chance to explain himself, and it would be smart for him to do so.  Because right now, it appears as if he's saying people are "trolling' as an excuse to avoid answering the questions or statements they raise.

[One Above All]

<snip>

Quit trolling, jaimehlers.

[Nick]

So the bible with its errors is not the word of God.  You would think a almighty God of the universe would be able to fix this problem along the way.  Maybe a cliffsnotes version.  You know those shifty Catholic monks copied the bible from one language to another for 1000s of years.  Yet Protestants take it like it is gold. 

Let me ask you, would it be so bad if there were no god?  The one you pretend to believe in is sure wanting.  Is He a rookie God or something?

[monkeymind]

monkeymind: I edited my previous post for you, let me know if you're interested in taking part of this debate or not. As soon as I see you trolling again I will ignore you for good.

I am not anti-anyone, I just dont like to fall in useless exchanges.

I was referring to this rule:

Responses to a thread must be on-topic and should contribute constructively to the discussion at hand. New threads must be in line with the description and/or FAQ of the board in question, as well as these Rules.

and this

Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

So not only are you not on topic, you don't have the option of ignoring whomever you choose.

I find your discussion pretty useless regarding the topic. Please get on topic and discuss the probabilities of God's Existence. This is why I came to this thread.

[monkeymind]

Augusto:

I am not anti-anyone, I just dont like to fall in useless exchanges.

I am  referring to multiple comments about the Jews which seem to be disparaging.

[ParkingPlaces]

Augusto, you started out this thread with the following statement:

I’d like to start by pointing at revelations in the bible; most of them have been proven to become true.

When velkyn asked for details, you responded with:

You're right in the sense it would take me too much time to create a biblical study of the prophecies, and that we would never agree on every single detail, so I prefer to discuss in general terms (unless someone have a link to an article disproving prophecies).

Then in a later post, you complained:

When entering to this forum I assumed I was going to find some of the best examples of clear/analytical minds (because this page have some deep arguments), but I see anger and confusion instead in most forum members.

So, you want to assume the prophecies are true, to speak in generalities and complain about our lack of intellectual prowess. You laugh off our questions and comments about the prophecies because of course they're true.

So what's to debate? You've already declared yourself the winner and us a bunch of looser's.

[monkeymind]

I’d like to start by pointing at revelations in the bible; most of them have been proven to become true. So, if anyone would like to shed some light on this, like “maybe all those prophecies have been manipulated after they actually happened” either way, I think WWII allowed Jews to return to their holly land, which is something pretty much unique in history, for we know (as an example) American natives will never recover their land.

Now there is this Jewish Christian group earning popularity, which is making Jesus part of their beliefs in Israel, something most of us would have imagine impossible. And I’m concerned about the possibility of missing reality because of arrogance.

Since nobody can prove God’s existence, neither his non-existence, I would like to discuss on this forum about what is more likely to be the truth.

So you start by pointing out revelations (but you don't want to discuss prophesy) about Jews returning to their Holy Land and the rising popularity of a Jewish Christian group are the reasons you believe in the existence of God?

[Augusto]

I do not wish to report anyone, and I will not for there is not a rule that forces me to report people. Neither this community have a rule that forces me to reply everyone, much less when I said I will not even read their posts because of reasons based in the rules of this forum.

As I said before, I want this topic to direct in the right direction and my posts are directed to that matter as long as I see fit. So, instead of accusing me with crazy charges, better go and report trollers, spammers and such.

God is everywhere, so by talking of salvation I'm talking of God's existence, by talking of prophecy I'm talking of God's existence, same thing by talking of the distortion of the Bible, because it is a common tool to disprove God. So I am not deviating from the topic and I will continue replying to those members I want to discuss with, ignoring those who act inappropriately. Nevertheless, people like "Lucifer" can perfectly ask someone in the debate to offer me his point of view, and of he wants to take part of the debate he can just ask me to take him into consideration by PM. All he has to do is follow the basic rules of this forum and any civil conversation.

ParkingPlaces: What I don’t want to do is to dictate a class of theology to forum members, I am open to anyone who want to disprove prophecies and we can discuss the subject in an open way, as I said: "unless someone have a link to an article disproving prophecies".

So, feel free to disprove prophecies, just don’t ask me to dictate a class because the topic is not called "Augusto explains all prophecies" nevertheless I have offer some responses to some people like Velkyn regarding to the subject, the topic is to discuss a different subject and everyone is free to offer arguments.

I am not laughing at anyone, the goal is to keep an open mind and reach a consensus ParkingPlaces; feel free to make your point against God existence if you like.

Monkeymind: Part of your question have been answered to ParkingPlaces, as for my reasons to believe in God, I have various reasons, which I'm planning to explain later, as the debate progresses, by now you guys who want to debate the veracity of prophecies might want to do some researches and post some arguments. Later on we can change the approach and talk of other subjects such as praying (talking to God) and life experiences.

[monkeymind]

So, by your reasoning (GOD is Everywhere) the fact that there are so many different versions of the bible and Holy books and stories about God(s). There must be a God?


ADEDD:
Please

[jaimehlers]

I do not wish to report anyone, and I will not for there is not a rule that forces me to report people. Neither this community have a rule that forces me to reply everyone, much less when I said I will not even read their posts because of reasons based in the rules of this forum.

As I said before, I want this topic to direct in the right direction and my posts are directed to that matter as long as I see fit. So, instead of accusing me with crazy charges, better go and report trollers, spammers and such.

It's your prerogative to report or not report people, but if you're going to accuse people of trolling, spamming, or flaming, in public no less, yet you aren't willing to actually report them so the forum staff can do something about them, then your accusations ring false.  It sounds much more like you're just trying to give an excuse for why you won't answer them, instead of because they were doing something that's against the forum rules.  If you really want this topic to go in the right direction, you would do well to drop the accusations, because those distract from the subject even under the best of circumstances.  It also wouldn't hurt to seriously consider why someone might be asking you questions, instead of simply not answering them because they don't seem to be on subject.

As far as the Bible goes, you admitted early on that the Bible was likely changed by the Jews.  Now, I have to ask, was it just the Jews who changed things, or just got them wrong, or could Christians have done the same thing?

[Quesi]

Well I’m back from picking up my daughter from soccer camp, and I’m delighted to jump back into this discussion with my own recap.

Let me see if I understand it so far.

The Jews contaminated the Bible, therefore the Bible can’t be trusted.  (I mean, they did write it!)

There is a prophesy in the Bible that states the Jews will return to Israel, and the Jews have returned to Israel. 

But since we have already established that the Jews put whatever they wanted into the Bible, isn’t it possible, (even probable?) that their return to Israel is not the fulfillment of a prophesy, but a fulfillment of their stated desire to return to Israel?

I say that since the whole Bible is suspect, I would like to propose that we discuss the “probabilities of God’s existence” without referencing the Bible. 

Doesn’t that make sense?

[monkeymind]

Ok, Augusto you said

I’d like to start by pointing at revelations in the bible; most of them have been proven to become true.

Then you gave the examples of Jews returning to their Holy land and rising popularity of a Jewish Christian group (supposedly these examples support your claim) of most revelations have been proven true. 

To start, please show where scripture, or whatever other sources you have, that show these 2 examples are evidence of revelations coming true, and then show how that gives a probability of God's existence.


ADDED: And please explain how we can know which were "doctored" by the Jews and which are true revelations of God.

[Augusto]

Well Monkeyball I have several reasons to believe in God, one of those is this:

Jeremiah 31: (Bringing the remnant of Israel from all corners of the earth to be a nation again)

7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Ezekiel 36 (Why this is done)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

This is said after the announcement of several different torments Israel was going to suffer, all of them already happened, I would recommend anyone who wants to discuss Ezekiel to take 20 minutes to read this book, so, Israel was going to be without home and be disseminated around the earth and He would bring them back home, which happened after WWII.

Then I wonder why this people would have this kind of text, in which they're accused of being a “whore”, just imagine this kind of thing in any other country imagine this being part of the proclamation of liberty in your country so you get an idea of the bizarre of it, which is UNIQUE, and because of this, I believe it was truly inspired by God.

Because of Ezekiel, I understood the story of the Tower of Babel as God's way to show us His existence, basically he did not wanted us to be together because he knew we would eventually deny of Him, he blessed Israel, not because they were good or better than any other people, but because he wanted people to see how they were blessed by God and use this as a testimony to the nations (this even before Jesus arrival, therefore pointing at the incredible idea that EVERYONE on earth could become part of the people of God = citizens of Israel). Israel is the testimony of God to humanity, and yes, I know it is not enough, that is why we are free to BELIEVE or not, to be good or evil, and at the end we will meet his judgment. This also fits the profile of the last days, see, the Bible says Islam is going to wage war against Israel to destroy it, Jesus will say to those who seek for him at the judgment claiming to follow him “I never knew you”.

Basically, the story that prophecies are telling is not about Israel but about humanity, which is also unique. I do believe in God, and I have several reasons, maybe you all should read the books of prophecies and decide, maybe if you follow Him in TRUTH and not as religious fanatics you’ll get to listen to His voice, as I did.

Quesi: While you are pretty much right, you are not entirely right. History researches can offer some light in what we can believe and what we cannot, as well as the Holy Spirit. Without the Bible, you couldn't know what God is this and what he wants from you, so I invite you to read it (specially the New Testament). I can tell you the Bible still contains what God wants you to know, and what you need to know.

You are right since we can discuss of God's existence without the Bible, so let's say: there are two options, one... with something bigger than us, something with intelligence that have created existence. The other option is, there is nothing bigger, there is no something bigger than us that have created existence, and existence exists by chance. Since none of these claims can be demonstrated, I invite you all to offer your arguments, so we can decide what is more LIKELY.

Question, is it more likely that God exist or that God doesn't exist?

[monkeymind]

Question, is it more likely that God exist or that God doesn't exist?

It is more likely that God does not exist.

[Augusto]

Well monkeymind, then tell me, if nothing superior exist, and you embrace evolution, how come an insect can look like this?:

http://desdeguate.com/wp-content/blog/Marzo/fotografias-increibles-animales-ii.jpg

An insect, which cannot even think in our level have evolved and have the ability to fly, and those amazing eyes, this just happened because of the survival of the strongest? the confection of lungs, wings, the stomach system, the circulatory system, the way everything works in life is simply explained by "random" and "the survival of the strongest"?

Also tell me, if God does not exist, who created existence, I mean, who created the potato that was before the big bang in the infinite? (this is before the existence of time itself (because time came to existence after the big bang along with everything else)

I don’t expect you to have the answers, because not even the science can answer to this; fact is, evolution is REAL, but the theory is NOT complete, because it cannot explain the “intelligence” behind its design. Neither can the science explain what was before everything, see… all that exist cannot exist out of the nowhere, out of nothing. There was indeed “something” before the universe, and that is the “potato”; now… who created it?

I don’t think you guys know, but there are some light particles that “know” when they are being observed. There is much more than we know, and everything points to an intelligent creator.

[jaimehlers]

Augusto:  You did not answer my question.  If some of the Jews could have changed the text of the Bible, whether deliberately or inadvertently, could not some of the Christians have done the same?

And if you can say that some people changed the Bible, how can you reasonably trust in the Bible as an unimpeachable source to verify God's existence?  Without knowing for sure what was changed, you have to be skeptical of all of it (including the New Testament, because there is nothing to prove that this was not altered either) until you can confirm parts of it as true.

Also, I have to bring up a point.  If you think that something intelligent created existence...what created that something?  Like the old woman in that tired old joke, it's "turtles all the way down".  If you're going to posit that existence needed a separate being to create it, then it is only logical to posit that the separate being needed something to create it, and so on.  If not, you tacitly admit that there is "no something" at some point.  So, to apply Occam's Razor and consider the simplest explanation first, if there is "no something" at some point, why could it not have been at the point at which the universe began?

[monkeymind]

Well monkeymind, then tell me, if nothing superior exist, and you embrace evolution, how come an insect can look like this?:

http://desdeguate.com/wp-content/blog/Marzo/fotografias-increibles-animales-ii.jpg

An insect, which cannot even think in our level have evolved and have the ability to fly, and those amazing eyes, this just happened because of the survival of the strongest? the confection of lungs, wings, the stomach system, the circulatory system, the way everything works in life is simply explained by "random" and "the survival of the strongest"?

Also tell me, if God does not exist, who created existence, I mean, who created the potato that was before the big bang in the infinite (this is before the existence of time itself (because time came to existence after the big bang along with everything else).

There you go changing the subject again!

Ezekiel had temporal lobe epilepsy, and the multiple falls on his head had him saying all kinds of things. Do you believe his story about the three men surviving Nebuchanezzars furnace? Geesh!

Anyways, his prophesy of the Babalonians sacking Jerusalem did happen but not when he said it would. Why didn't they stone him for that? I just don't know what to believe.

Kewl insect. Study evolution and then we can talk about that in more detail. Experience tells me that discussing evolution with you would be pointless. However, I am willing to try if you start a thread in the section called Evolution & Creationism. I do have to go to a dinner in a few minutes, however.

[voodoo child]

Men created god, humans created time.

[Augusto]

Monkeymind: The Ezekiel argument is not serious monkeymind, hyper religiosity is something you cannot relate to Ezekiel, and compared to others, like Daniel (for example) you get to see a huge difference; hypergraphia is also not really something you can accuse this guy of, because he only wrote one book, which is shorter than Harry Potter or pretty much any novel. This book is formed by different revelations he received in different times, so... are you implying he shouldn't write them?

Now, this of Ezekiel being unable to speak is not described as such in the bible. It would be more like he didn't speak when people was going to visit him unless God told him to say something. Whenever he had to say something he would, instead, go and tell what he had to tell to people.

Finally, this “doctor” also did the same with Samson, he is trying to become famous, and that’s it. As for evolution, I would like you to brief me of what you know of evolution, thanks by the way, for being a worth contributor to the topic.


Jaimehlers: Man, most people don’t know of the errors in the bible, most people don’t even read the bible. Do you think that will prevent them from going to heaven if God exists?
As for Occam’s razor, you just have to consider evolution before choosing “where to cut”, let’s see what Monkeymind have to say about that particular subject.

[nogodsforme]

Hello Augusto;

1)You have stated that Jews contaminated and corrupted the bible. Which parts did the Jews mess up? Are there any original texts anywhere that show what the bible was meant to say? If not, then how do we know that the bible was messed up from the original text?

2)Where in the bible is Islam mentioned? Islam came along about 400 years after Emperor Constantine and his cronies decided what to include in the bible. They had no idea that Islam was on the way. By the time King James had his version written, the Muslims had a mighty empire and a very advanced culture. Was that when stuff about Islam was put into the bible?

3)A lot of the "fulfilled prophecies" depend on re-interpreting events after they happen and picking bible verses that seem to relate. Or people read something in the bible and then worked really hard to make that something happen. How can we tell if a prophecy is really fulfilled or not? Why didn't god make the prophecies clear and indisputable?

Like this: "On the eleventh day of the ninth month, in the first year of the second millenium, bad guys will fly airplanes into tall buildings in the most powerful country's largest city. Keep all airplanes on the ground that day and investigate all young men from Abu Dhabi with limited flight training." How hard is that?

4) Seems that god purposely made the Jews to be the fall guys of history. "Chosen" but not allowed to get god's true message, then persecuted all over the place, then nearly exterminated, finally given a homeland and then, when Jesus returns, all sent to hell for not having gotten the true message. What is the point of doing that to the Jews? Does not seem loving or caring to me.

5) You made the statement that evolution cannot happen because there are unique insects, made by god. So a loving god made all the insects, including flies and mosquitoes. And all the disease germs like malaria and the plague for the insects to carry. Why did a loving god make disease germs? Doesn't evolution explain diseases better than a loving god?

I post and wait all atremble for your terrible wrath of accusations of trolling.

[jaimehlers]

nogodsforme:  Augusto has decided to stop throwing accusations of "trolling" around.  Instead, he is ignoring people who in his opinion aren't "worthwhile contributors" to the topic.

[jetson]

Augusto,

Welcome to the forum!  For some reason, you have garnered the attention of the moderators already.  I just read through this thread, and it is clear to me that you are determined to create specific conditions for a debate.  Well, we have a special debate section where you can do just that.  Just send a message to a moderator, and a debate can be set up specifically for your topic.

But in this particular section of the forum, you are not free to dictate how the discussion goes, who you will or will not respond to, and what the rules will be.  You are of course free to ignore members, and avoid supporting your assertions, but then you would be crossing into rule breaking territory, and possibly gaining more attention than you probably want from the moderation team.

Take this message as an opportunity to consider that you are new here, and it might benefit you greatly to get to know the members a bit before you get too deep in discussion.  That is up to you, of course.  But it works well, based on my experience.

Thanks!

Jetson

[Astreja]

God is everywhere, so by talking of salvation I'm talking of God's existence, by talking of prophecy I'm talking of God's existence...

Unsupported assertion.  You can't just assume your god exists; you have to provide something substantial and objective to support your premise.  Until you give us something to go on, your argument is just going to sink into the quicksand like so many before it.

...feel free to make your point against God existence if you like.

Okay.  Here's 3, for a start:

• No "prophesies" that could not be fulfilled by humans, either through chance or through deliberate effort.
• No traces of your alleged god in the physical universe.
• Wildly disparate ideas of what gods are like and what they want from mortals, as demonstrated by the existence of multiple religions (and 30,000+ sects of Christianity).

[Augusto]

Hello Augusto;

1)You have stated that Jews contaminated and corrupted the bible. Which parts did the Jews mess up? Are there any original texts anywhere that show what the bible was meant to say? If not, then how do we know that the bible was messed up from the original text?

You should just let the Holy Spirit to guide you, or limit to do what you know without a doubt that God wants you to do, it's pretty simple actually because every human being knows what is good, you can just say "in the name of God, or in the name of Love" which should be about the same for a loving God. He wants what is good for you and for others; I'll go deeper on this subject in another time.

2)Where in the bible is Islam mentioned? Islam came along about 400 years after Emperor Constantine and his cronies decided what to include in the bible. They had no idea that Islam was on the way. By the time King James had his version written, the Muslims had a mighty empire and a very advanced culture. Was that when stuff about Islam was put into the bible?

Honestly, I do not know what you mean. Muslims and their book are wrong, if that helps.

3)A lot of the "fulfilled prophecies" depend on re-interpreting events after they happen and picking bible verses that seem to relate. Or people read something in the bible and then worked really hard to make that something happen. How can we tell if a prophecy is really fulfilled or not? Why didn't god make the prophecies clear and indisputable?

Like this: "On the eleventh day of the ninth month, in the first year of the second millenium, bad guys will fly airplanes into tall buildings in the most powerful country's largest city. Keep all airplanes on the ground that day and investigate all young men from Abu Dhabi with limited flight training." How hard is that?

I must tell you, first because a lot of them would not happen if they were told exactly as they were going to happen, for example: I'll let Hittler rise so you and others get killed and at the end my word will come true", in this case, Hittler would never have been able to reach the power. Another reason is because things are the way they are and you cannot ask revelation being an atheist. I had one question to God, which was "what is your porpoise for people who are born with deformities?" and I got my answer. Not everyone gets their answer by God though; most likely you have to seek for your answers.

4) Seems that god purposely made the Jews to be the fall guys of history. "Chosen" but not allowed to get god's true message, then persecuted all over the place, then nearly exterminated, finally given a homeland and then, when Jesus returns, all sent to hell for not having gotten the true message. What is the point of doing that to the Jews? Does not seem loving or caring to me.

Actually they're not going to be send to hell like that, and there is a message for you. How many times those guys defied God and Him rescue and saved them in his mercy. You must understand how Israel can be not a country, but also a person, and that person can be the reflect of YOU.

So, what are you going to do? They spit on Christ, they denied of God, they went after other gods (because EVERYTHING can become a God, such as money, sex, power, music or whatever), and they have been punished since ever, they have cried in pain just like you or any of us, because life is hard, nevertheless God did not allow them to die, and so, you and I are still alive. Just think, if you don’t believe in God, but would like to be happy, keep reading me because I’ll explain later why the most simple things in the bible lead to your happiness, and don’t think you’ll have to go to any church or temple, because IS NOT like that at all.

Also think, how this country allowed to be described as worth of pity instead of glory, isn’t it weird and against logic? Now, I invite you to read Mathews (even if you already did), and ask yourself: Why am I discussing about God’s existence instead of just doing what is good for me and for the people I love.

I have to tell you, the enemy of humanity is not God, but religion.

5) You made the statement that evolution cannot happen because there are unique insects, made by god. So a loving god made all the insects, including flies and mosquitoes. And all the disease germs like malaria and the plague for the insects to carry. Why did a loving god make disease germs? Doesn't evolution explain diseases better than a loving god?

How about this?: God created evil and good because he created everything, and so gave us free will to choose what we want in our lives. You cannot be good without evil, and you cannot know happiness without knowing sadness, therefore you will know sadness so you value what is good and fight for it.

Even more, you are here to learn, grow and make a choice. No matter what your situation is, you can embrace heaven, for heaven can be inside you. This means you can be happy even in adversity, and you need NOTHING if you know how.

I post and wait all atremble for your terrible wrath of accusations of trolling.

I hope you tremble, because I sent you something big.

Edit: Here is some "evidence" if you "need" something to do what is good:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Conscious-Particles,-Fields-and-Waves&id=546242

Nevertheless I will be posting more and more reasons to believe in God, the God of the Bible and not Zeus or any other. It would be good if some people help sharing their reasons not to believe in God so this doesn't become a speech.
You guys will help me buid my reasons, or I will help you to build yours, at the end we all will earn no matter what the result is.

I'm waiting for you guys.

[Astreja]

You should just let the Holy Spirit to guide you, or limit to do what you know without a doubt that God wants you to do, it's pretty simple actually because every human being knows what is good, you can just say "in the name of God, or in the name of Love" which should be about the same for a loving God.

How does one distinguish this process from self-hypnosis or wishful thinking, Augusto?  I can meditate for 2 or 3 seconds on just about any spiritual woo-woo that I want, from any religious or philosophical tradition, and immediately get a wild rush of energy down My spine.

I don't think the Holy Spirit is anything more than a trick of our nervous systems.

[Babdah]

I think WWII allowed Jews to return to their holly land, which is something pretty much unique in history, for we know (as an example) American natives will never recover their land.

Ok, this is not unique, the roman ran them out only to give it back to them the Muslims took it over a few time only to be chased out by the crusades. So in all honestly this is not unique.
 

Now there is this Jewish Christian group earning popularity, which is making Jesus part of their beliefs in Israel, something most of us would have imagine impossible. And I’m concerned about the possibility of missing reality because of arrogance.

No not really, Jeezus and his "followers" apply pressure and over time there will be people incorporating jeezus in there belief system. "If you cant beat them join"

Since nobody can prove God’s existence, neither his non-existence, I would like to discuss on this forum about what is more likely to be the truth.

We are here, and life would of been so much better if religion was not. No other animal has created a religion, and if there were a god, i am sure monkeys would of created one also.

[shnozzola]

4) Seems that god purposely made the Jews to be the fall guys of history. "Chosen" but not allowed to get god's true message, then persecuted all over the place, then nearly exterminated, finally given a homeland and then, when Jesus returns, all sent to hell for not having gotten the true message. What is the point of doing that to the Jews? Does not seem loving or caring to me.

^^ If that doesn't cure the Christian God belief....................

[Augusto]

Astreja, you don't need to pray, you can just limit yourself to believe and do something good just for the sake of it.

I don’t know you, but let's say you are capable of adopting a child, or at least a homeless dog. DO IT, then keep on with your life, later on, decide if you want to say you did it in the name of God, or in the name of random chaos, or just because you are good.

I can tell you this: if you do mostly bad things, eventually your own heart will accuse you, and you will feel bad for things you did, your actions will have their weight in your soul, but if you do good to others, you will have peace, you will have something difficult to explain that will be visible even in your face, and people will be able to see it, just as you see it in the faces of certain people.

This is "the measure of your heart", you can call it Karma, or the presence of the Holy Spirit or being possessed by demons, it's basically this "force" that is meant to be used to help others, and build your soul, or to damage others and destroy your soul. Truth is, you don’t have to pray at all, whenever you see a sunset, or get a loving kiss, you can simply say “thanks God”, you don’t even need to say it, it is enough if you feel it, and if you show you are grateful with your actions, to make this world a better place, and to let others share your joy. If you do this, you should be ending up believing in God, and you will know for sure you have not been under hypnotism.

What should be done when one suffer? It is something long, and I don’t think this is the right topic, maybe we should keep on topic and if God wins this debate, I could find permission to talk about the soul, and what is good for anyone else.

Nevertheless, I will be explaining a few things that are said in the bible that have been proven to be good for people as the debate progresses, because this will fit as evidence in favor of God's existence.

[Babdah]

I can tell you this: if you do mostly bad things, eventually your own heart will accuse you, and you will feel bad for things you did, your actions will have their weight in your soul, but if you do good to others, you will have peace, you will have something difficult to explain that will be visible even in your face, and people will be able to see it, just as you see it in the faces of certain people.

This is "the measure of your heart", you can call it Karma, or the presence of the Holy Spirit or being possessed by demons, it's basically this "force" that is meant to be used to help others.....

edger allen poe said it best with  "Tell Tale Heart", it is called guilt no force needed, your own feelings that have nothing to do with god, But then again how come a psychopath never feels this not even when he is facing his own death.