Probabilities of God's existence debate

[Augusto]

I’d like to start by pointing at revelations in the bible; most of them have been proven to become true. So, if anyone would like to shed some light on this, like “maybe all those prophecies have been manipulated after they actually happened” either way, I think WWII allowed Jews to return to their holly land, which is something pretty much unique in history, for we know (as an example) American natives will never recover their land.

Now there is this Jewish Christian group earning popularity, which is making Jesus part of their beliefs in Israel, something most of us would have imagine impossible. And I’m concerned about the possibility of missing reality because of arrogance.

Since nobody can prove God’s existence, neither his non-existence, I would like to discuss on this forum about what is more likely to be the truth.

[One Above All]

I’d like to start by pointing at revelations in the bible; most of them have been proven to become true.

Which ones?

Since nobody can prove God’s existence, neither his non-existence,

Depends on your definition of "god". The biblical YHWH, for example? Disproven ad nauseam.

I would like to discuss on this forum about what is more likely to be the truth.

No gods whatsoever is the truth.

[Nick]

Didn't it also say He would return within a generation of the Jews going home?  I think a generation has come and gone.  Like Nostradamus...much of the bible is worked and reworked to meet your needs.  Like a few years back when some group thought the bible was coded and could be read with a computer.  My opinion is that there were many god/man sects at that time among the Romans.  None were meant to be taken as historical.  Gnostic (finding the meaning of life stuff) was what they were all about.  But Rome came apart, the church filled the void, books were destroyed and the Dark Ages came about.  All of a sudden we have Jesus as a real person.  The rest is history.

There is no proof for a sky daddy.  Just watching religious people should be proof of that alone.

[Augusto]

Your reply (Lucifer) gives no light whatsoever in any point; I already gave some initial arguments, so stop asking questions and offering absolutes.

I do mean YHWH, and just because you know of some immoralities and errors in the bible, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. For we know the nature of people, and people were those who wrote the bible, all of them Jews, which were compared to a whore by God himself, therefore, any errors and evil claims related to God are most likely related to Jewish people contaminating the word of God.

Please stop trolling so we can have a real debate. I am not trying to win this, I just want to share the little I know and see what you can tell me (anyone is invited), so we get a common consensus.

[ParkingPlaces]

A bunch of jews who thought the land was theirs were trying to take it back long before WWII. After the war they were still killing the British, who controlled it, on a regular basis until the Brits gave up and gave it to them. Proof positive that terrorists win sometimes.

The jews did it because they read that it was theirs in their holy books. And being that they had holy books, the jews took is serious. And killed people, including many innocents,  to get what they wanted. They also kill many innocents every year to keep it. They're happy. And you're happy. I guess that works for some people.

And don't be so sure that the native American's won't get this country back. If they can hold their cultures together while ours disintegrates under the pressure of racial zealots, homophobes, women-haters, bible-bashers and those idiots who advertise overpriced infrared fireplaces on late night TV, they'll get it back soon enough. And I hope so. They were much nicer to these two continents than we have been.

[One Above All]

Your reply (Lucifer) gives no light whatsoever in any point; I already gave some initial arguments, so stop asking questions and offering absolutes.

You made assertions, not arguments. I asked you to back them up, per the rules you agreed to when you registered. If you offer no evidence, then your argument (based on the aforementioned assertions) will be dismissed.

I do mean YHWH, and just because you know of some immoralities and errors in the bible, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

There are errors in describing YHWH itself. Its very definition is logically inconsistent.

For we know the nature of people, and people were those who wrote the bible, all of them Jews,

No, we don't. We know what they wrote, but we don't know if they were telling the truth. Do you also apply this level of... "scrutiny" to the Qur'an?

which were compared to a whore by God himself,

Its chosen people are whores? Say it isn't so! Wait, wasn't Jesus a Jew?

therefore, any errors and evil claims related to God are most likely related to Jewish people contaminating the word of God.

Like Jesus. Gotcha.

[velkyn]

I’d like to start by pointing at revelations in the bible; most of them have been proven to become true. So, if anyone would like to shed some light on this, like “maybe all those prophecies have been manipulated after they actually happened” either way, I think WWII allowed Jews to return to their holly land, which is something pretty much unique in history, for we know (as an example) American natives will never recover their land.

No, they haven’t been proven to have become true.  Lucifer is right to ask you “which ones”?  I suspect that you find this question troubling since you would have to find the prophecy and then prove that it was correctly “interpreted” and then if the event that you would claim to have fulfilled it actually happened.   

I think it’s disgusting that Christians are so arrogant and ignorant to think that “ooooh WWII allowed Jews to return” whilst ignoring that 6 million Jews, Romany, mentally disabled, homosexuals, were murdered, along with millions of soldiers who died in combat, disease, etc.  All to make your little fantasies of “Revelation” come true.

Now there is this Jewish Christian group earning popularity, which is making Jesus part of their beliefs in Israel, something most of us would have imagine impossible. And I’m concerned about the possibility of missing reality because of arrogance.

  Wee, Jews for Jesus aka just more Christians who can’t leave their cultural ties behind.   Um, so what?  A bunch of people who go from one religion to another picking and choosing.  Gee, that gives me so much trust in their judgment and claims to have any “truth”.   It also amuses me that you attack Jews and claim that it’s their fault the bible is so screwed up, but oh you are desperate for them to “serve their place” in your fantasies.  I’m also amused at a god that can’t do anything to fix its magic book.  and please, free will is no argument, since Christians constantly claim that their god interferes with humans constantly with “miracles”.

Since nobody can prove God’s existence, neither his non-existence, I would like to discuss on this forum about what is more likely to be the truth.

Oh I can show that your little Christian god doesn’t exist.  Your god likes contests to show how powerful he is per your bible.  Your god likes to show evidence that he exists, per the bible. There is nothing in it that says that your god only wants “faith” so he hides himself.   So, how about a pair of altars, you praying for your god to light it, and me with a Zippo. We’ll see who gets a fire first.   Or is the bible wrong? 

Augusto, if you’d take a moment to read some of the forum, you’d see that you have nothing new to share.  You are welcome to try, but be aware we’ve “been there, done that”.

[Augusto]

Lucifer: I'm not even reading you anymore, so give your time some better use.

Velkin: You're right in the sense it would take me too much time to create a biblical study of the prophecies, and that we would never agree on every single detail, so I prefer to discuss in general terms (unless someone have a link to an article disproving prophecies).

In general, they were captive by different empires, such as Egyptian, Persian, Babylonian and Roman empires; all this is in different prophecies. So, they were eventually expelled from the holy land and God said He would gather them from all corners of the earth to their land after all this, because they were not good people, and because their deeds were not good, He would still do it not because of them, but because of His name, so all nations would know there is one God.

So I wonder: How many times this has happened in humanity? How many religions claim their people are evil, instead of saying they're super cool? How many religions are full of prophecies that we see come true?

Because a lot of empires and people in the bible were propheticed to be eliminated from the face of earth, and that their memory would be erased from history, and recently we found this "unknown" towns/cities/empires actually did existed, but there is not enough information to say what they were or anything else except that they were totally eliminated from earth.

So, I'm not kissing Israel's ass or anything like that. I'm merely pointing that WWII made possible for them to recover their land, on the expenses of a price of blood, so they would shut their mouth and be humble.

[One Above All]

Lucifer: I'm not even reading you anymore, so give your time some better use.

Already did. Reported you to the mods.

[monkeymind]

Velkin: You're right in the sense it would take me too much time to create a biblical study of the prophecies, and that we would never agree on every single detail, so I prefer to discuss in general terms (unless someone have a link to an article disproving prophecies).

I KNEW you were going to say that!

[velkyn]

Lucifer: I'm not even reading you anymore, so give your time some better use.

Velkin: You're right in the sense it would take me too much time to create a biblical study of the prophecies, and that we would never agree on every single detail, so I prefer to discuss in general terms (unless someone have a link to an article disproving prophecies).

Nice dodge there. You know you’ll fail so you suddenly don’t have enough time.  Pick one, Augusto, and show how it was “fulfilled”.  That’s when we can see if we agree or disagree on the details.  In “general terms”, your bible and its prophecies fail.

In general, they were captive by different empires, such as Egyptian, Persian, Babylonian and Roman empires; all this is in different prophecies. So, they were eventually expelled from the holy land and God said He would gather them from all corners of the earth to their land after all this, because they were not good people, and because their deeds were not good, He would still do it not because of them, but because of His name, so all nations would know there is one God.

And those “prophecies” are often from books that were written *after* the supposed events.  That’s really convenient isn’t it?  The Jews don’t believe in JC as a messiah.  He didn’t fulfill their prophecies.  You can see them in a nice format right here: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=374:messiah-the-criteria&catid=68:the-jewish-messiah&Itemid=481  No earthly rulers bowed down before this Jesus Christ, he built no temple, etc. Christians had to invent a “second coming” to excuse that problem.  That’s what you call trying to move the goalposts so your nonsense has a chance of remaining unquestioned.

So I wonder: How many times this has happened in humanity? How many religions claim their people are evil, instead of saying they're super cool? How many religions are full of prophecies that we see come true?

  How many religion’s claim that those other religious people are evil?  Oh lots.  See, Christians claim that the Jews are wrong.  Muslims claim that the Christians are wrong. And all have come from the other. No prophecies have come true, not for any religion not even yours.  You see, Augusto, you want to claim prophecies are true but you think you can get away with not supporting that, and claim to want only to talk in “generalities”.  Those generalities are false too.  Now that I think about it, I’m guessing you haven’t a clue about what prophecies are in play and what verses to even look up.  You just have blindly accepted what your fellow Christian have said as the truth.   Take for instance, the claim about Israel being gathered.  Some Christains want that to just be the founding of the modern state of Israel, but it doesn’t say that, it says when all Jews are returned and that the messiah will be the one to do so.  I see no stampede to get back to a little country that has to fight with its neighbors for water and land.  How many more centuries will be taken in Christians claiming they’re real sure now that it’s the end times, changing what the prophecies “really” meant from the supposed “truths” from the century before?  God sure does mumble a lot evidently.

Because a lot of empires and people in the bible were propheticed to be eliminated from the face of earth, and that their memory would be erased from history, and recently we found this "unknown" towns/cities/empires actually did existed, but there is not enough information to say what they were or anything else except that they were totally eliminated from earth.

Hmmm, and funny how puny humans have demonstrated that God’s promises that they would be erased from history and never be found again are false by finding them again.  Poor god I guess he just can’t quite achieve what he promised.  Tyre is still hale and hearty and your god promised that no one would ever find it again after it was supposedly destroyed. It wasn’t and has been around continually.  I guess archeologists are stronger than your god  But some of the towns with magical events around them, hmmm, no one can find them at all.  No Sodom and Gomorrah with burny marks all over them.  No evidence of any city in Egypt suffering any of the magical plagues.  Heck, no evidence of any “exodus” at all.  No magical palace of Solomon or David.  Your god hasn’t a very good track record.   

So, I'm not kissing Israel's ass or anything like that. I'm merely pointing that WWII made possible for them to recover their land, on the expenses of a price of blood, so they would shut their mouth and be humble.

“Shut their mouths and be humble”  Gee, what a good Christian you are.     

Now, I generally am not on over the weekend so I’ll let my fellow forum mates educate you.

[Augusto]

When entering to this forum I assumed I was going to find some of the best examples of clear/analytical minds (because this page have some deep arguments), but I see anger and confusion instead in most forum members.

Is anyone capable of reason? I would rather that some people commit to be reasonable so I can read their responses ONLY, this will help us to ignore the reading of flaming, trolling and spam, and to go forward on this debate I propose, instead of ending up in nothing.

So please, those who want to debate with reason and weight, please let me know, for I will be only reading posts of specific persons, this will help me to focus in those replies and reply faster. Others could just address to them if they have something to add, because so far I see, there are not too many believers on this forum, and because of the huge number of members I find myself on a difficult situation in which I cannot read and reply to everything, not to mention I waste my time reading useless posts.

[Frank]

How many religions are full of prophecies that we see come true?

So far? None.

[One Above All]

Let me translate Augusto's latest post:
"What?! I'm supposed to prove me right?! Hell no! You're going to accept what I say without question! If you don't, you're an idiot and a troll!"

[monkeymind]

[SNIP] I will be only reading posts of specific persons, this will help me to focus in those replies and reply faster.

Have you read the rules?

[Augusto]

Velkyn: The reason I "dodge" the study of prophecies is because it have been studied already, there is no point in using our time to replicate something that have been already established.

About the failure to Jesus to fulfill certain prophecies, it have been discussed before, and it is the way it should happen, either way other prophecies could not become true. For example, if Jesus would have rebuilt the temple in his first coming, Jewish people would have believed in him and another prophesy would have been broken, specifically the one about Jewish and non Jewish people.

It was necessary that Jewish deny the Messiah so his word would come to us. From the logical point of view, Jesus is the only possible Messiah and there is no chance that another Messiah could come today or in the future, and the construction of the temple, for example, is not “excused” by his second coming, but NECESSARY.

As for the rest of your arguments, I find just a problem in explaining everything to you as if this were a religion class, I mean, you need more information. I admire your desire to post on a logic way, but you just need to know more. I wonder if there is someone in here that knows enough.

Please don’t take this in a bad way Velkyn.

Edit: Yes monkeymind, I have. And I'm not forced to reply everyone, not trollers, not flammers, not spammers, and not disrespectul people, for they are breaking the most obvious rules.

[Quesi]

I know I’m really excited to learn that the prophesies are coming true, and I can’t wait to hear more!  Does this mean that the Rapture is coming soon?  I’d really like to have an idea of how much time I have to prepare. 

But I have a question.    If the omnipotent, omniscient God wrote all of those prophesies, and everything else in the scriptures, why did he have to make it all so confusing?  I mean, there is a lot of cryptic stuff in the Bible.  And if you don’t mind my saying so, some contradictory stuff too.

What about if you find a mommy bird sitting on an egg?  I mean can you take the eggs but not the bird?  The mommy bird but not the eggs?  Are you supposed to leave both of them alone?  It would have been much more helpful if God had been a little clearer about what He wants us to do. 
http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-6.htm

And this working on the Sabbath stuff.  I mean, should people who work on Sundays really be put to death?  My daughter takes ballet classes on Sundays, and I would hate to see her very nice ballet teacher put to death.  Especially before the Spring performance. 

And what the descendents of bastards being banned from the congregation of the Lord for 10 generations?  I mean, what is that all about?  I’ve done some reading on that one, and even the “experts” can’t agree as to whether that is a kid born out of wedlock, a kid born to a Jew and a non-Jew, a kid born to a prostitute, a kid conceived in rape by a family member of the mother.   

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-2.htm

So why didn’t God write scriptures that were easy for all of us to understand, and not so open to sinful interpretations? 

[monkeymind]

The reason I "dodge" the study of prophecies is because it have been studied already, there is no point in using our time to replicate something that have been already established.

Since there is nothing new under the sun. I mean this stuff has been studied for hundreds of years right? I guess there is no point in using our time-eh?

[Augusto]

Hello Quesi: First of all, I want to know if you're willing to sustain a civil debate, so I can read and reply your posts.

Assuming you are, I must tell you:

This debate is NOT about the veracity of the content of the bible, but about the existence or non existence of God.

Nevertheless I find your reply somehow pertinent to the subject, and I am aware of a huge amount of evil things written in the bible, not to mention errors and contradictions. So, instead of talking of these examples you are addressing I will refer about all of them:

The bible also says the Jews were evildoers, people who several times turned their hearts to other gods, people who ignored God's commands and so on. So I believe (and this is corroborated) the bible have been manipulated and its content changed over the years, furthermore I consider even when it was written, a lot of things were included for human / particular reasons, and those things were not part of God's actions or will.

So, if one is to seek for God, what should he do?
- Follow the Holy Spirit (everyone knows the differences between good and evil) and do what is good.
- Believe in Him, for he has given us the ability to BELIEVE in the divinity, and this is something inside every single human being.
- Be humble, for we are nothing in the existence.

So what about religions? What about miracles? What about heaven, do you know how heaven is?

I say, if you truly love GOOD, you don’t need any promise of heaven or miracles or whatever, you will simply do good. You can adopt a child or a dog, plant a tree, give money away and be a moral person. What you can do depends on the level of goodness you have in your soul.

Monkeymind: From this point I will not be reading or replying to you, so use your time as you please.

Edit: For everyone, I think it is better for me to stick on this topic only (by now).

[One Above All]

This debate is NOT about the veracity of the content of the bible, but about the existence or non existence of God.

So you assume the Bible to be true for the purpose of debate and the point of said debate is to prove or disprove the existence of a being described in the Bible and nowhere else. You don't see a problem with that?

[monkeymind]

Monkeymind: From this point I will not be reading or replying to you, so use your time as you please.

Why not?

I just asked if you read the rules. Obviously you have not. Or, care not to follow them.

It is good that you want to stick to the topic, but sometimes topics stray.

Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

[monkeymind]

The reason I "dodge" the study of prophecies is because it have been studied already, there is no point in using our time to replicate something that have been already established.

Since there is nothing new under the sun. I mean this stuff has been studied for hundreds of years right? I guess there is no point in using our time-eh?

[Quesi]

Hello Quesi: First of all, I want to know if you're willing to sustain a civil debate, so I can read and reply your posts.

Assuming you are, I must tell you:

This debate is NOT about the veracity of the content of the bible, but about the existence or non existence of God.

Nevertheless I find your reply somehow pertinent to the subject, and I am aware of a huge amount of evil things written in the bible, not to mention errors and contradictions. So, instead of talking of these examples you are addressing I will refer about all of them:

The bible also says the Jews were evildoers, people who several times turned their hearts to other gods, people who ignored God's commands and so on. So I believe (and this is corroborated) the bible have been manipulated and its content changed over the years, furthermore I consider even when it was written, a lot of things were included for human / particular reasons, and those things were not part of God's actions or will.

The Jews manipulated the content of the Bible? 

[monkeymind]

What does this:

The bible also says the Jews were evildoers, people who several times turned their hearts to other gods, people who ignored God's commands and so on. So I believe (and this is corroborated) the bible have been manipulated and its content changed over the years, furthermore I consider even when it was written, a lot of things were included for human / particular reasons, and those things were not part of God's actions or will.

Have to do with the probability of the existence of God?

And how do you propose a debate when you are not willing to speak with certain individuals? There are debate rooms, if you choose to engage only one person at a time. This thread is not for that.

[Augusto]

Yes Quesi, even the Jews, but not only them; every single religion have done modifications to the bible with different reasons.

As for your specific question about the Jews, here is part of an article I found using Google:

"Before the days of the print, Bibles were copied in handwriting by scribes. They were organized in a guild that in the centuries before Jesus became part of a well known political party: the Pharisees. Eventually, they became the Talmudic rabbis we see today. This method was not only cumbersome and expensive, but it also created room for errors; actually all modern Hebrew Bibles carry with them unfixed errors. Typographical errors which couldn't be validated with an older version were left as they were, testimony to the care of the scribes. However, this method also allowed creating intentional manipulations of the text for political reasons. The old copies would eventually deteriorate beyond recognition and the new ones would carry the desired changes to posterity. It could be almost a perfect system for the Pharisees, however, at certain point they committed an error and today we can see clear signs of their alterations."

This is a historical fact, and you can find this article by following this link for further information, most likely I would recommend you to keep studying the subject:

http://www.roytov.com/articles/bible.htm

Edit: What do you want monkeymind? I did read your posts, if you want to participate I can change my mind and take you into consideration, I just ask you to follow the most basic rules of comunication. Would you agree?

Asuming you agree, I will reply your previous comments:

"Since there is nothing new under the sun. I mean this stuff has been studied for hundreds of years right? I guess there is no point in using our time-eh?"

It is of my interest to arrive to the conclusion of what is more probable, the existence of God or His non-existence, this topic deals about that, because it have been impossible to demonstrate any of this arguments, so I want to discuss on probabilities, and I am willing to deviate from the main subject as I see fit for the sake of covering certain base, but not all of it because if I wanted to discuss with people who know nothing of the subject I would not be discussing the subject in here, I would discuss it with random people in the street.

[shnozzola]

This debate is NOT about the veracity of the content of the bible, but about the existence or non existence of God.

I say, if you truly love GOOD, you don’t need any promise of heaven or miracles or whatever, you will simply do good. You can adopt a child or a dog, plant a tree, give money away and be a moral person. What you can do depends on the level of goodness you have in your soul.

Augusto, I feel like I do “love” good, and try to do good.  It’s not really for me to say whether or not I am good, but I generally try to treat all, even those I disagree with, with respect.  I do not know whether or not god exists.  I’m leaning toward no.  I believe I am considered an agnostic atheist.  What do you think will happen to me at death, if, in fact, I am considered good, but do not believe in god?

[Quesi]

Yes Quesi, even the Jews, but not only them; every single religion have done modifications to the bible with different reasons.

As for your specific question about the Jews, here is part of an article I found using Google:

"Before the days of the print, Bibles were copied in handwriting by scribes. They were organized in a guild that in the centuries before Jesus became part of a well known political party: the Pharisees. Eventually, they became the Talmudic rabbis we see today. This method was not only cumbersome and expensive, but it also created room for errors; actually all modern Hebrew Bibles carry with them unfixed errors. Typographical errors which couldn't be validated with an older version were left as they were, testimony to the care of the scribes. However, this method also allowed creating intentional manipulations of the text for political reasons. The old copies would eventually deteriorate beyond recognition and the new ones would carry the desired changes to posterity. It could be almost a perfect system for the Pharisees, however, at certain point they committed an error and today we can see clear signs of their alterations."

This is a historical fact, and you can find this article by following this link for further information, most likely I would recommend you to keep studying the subject:

http://www.roytov.com/articles/bible.htm

So itis possible that NOTHING in the Bible is true?

[monkeymind]

Augusto: Are you an anti-semite?

[Augusto]

monkeymind: I edited my previous post for you, let me know if you're interested in taking part of this debate or not. As soon as I see you trolling again I will ignore you for good.

I am not anti-anyone, I just dont like to fall in useless exchanges.

shnozzola: I do not know what awaits you in the afterlife, while some people claim you'll be to hell, I believe a good God would take your heart into consideration and NOT any kind of ritual life. Nevertheless, arriving to a positive conclusion on this topic should be of interest for those who consider themselves to love "good".

The book of Apocalypses refers to the rapt of 144.000 persons and say this are the one who are consecrated to the Lord, those who are virgin, for they haven't been contaminated with women.

My interpretation of this words is that this "women" that contaminate humans are religions, so this prophecy should be talking of a rapt of men and women equally, people of good heart who are not hypocrite religious fanatics.