Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 54173 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #667 on: March 27, 2014, 03:02:09 PM »
Yep, Loc-Nar 5s exist...for now. You see, it's easy to name things that you feel does not exist. And it's hard to name the reasons why you feel something exist. (And name the thing of course)
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #668 on: March 27, 2014, 03:16:35 PM »
Yep, Loc-Nar 5s exist...for now.
Does that mean, for now, god and Blarghs do not exist?

Or, rather, why qualify the existence of Loc-Nar 5s with 'for now', but not qualify the existence of Blarghs or god with 'for now'?  Are you now saying that the existence of something is predicated on more than just a name and a definition?

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You see, it's easy to name things that you feel does not exist.
Like, for example, 'god'?

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And it's hard to name the reasons why you feel something exist. (And name the thing of course)
I'm not exactly sure why it'd be hard to name...I really don't think people struggled a whole lot to slap labels on things like 'universal aether', 'Planet X', 'quasar', 'Indian ocean', etc.  So that's a bit confusing to me I suppose.  Do you mean that it's hard to come up with a subjectively good name?  Like not naming your kid Apple or something like that?

I do agree that it can be difficult to establish reasons for why you feel something exists.  One way we try to get around that is by doing things like asking follow up questions...for example, if Loc-Nar 5s exists, what would we expect to see manifest in reality in response to that thingie's existence?  Does an eighth planet beyond Uranus exist?  If it does, what should we expect to see in reality?  If it does not, what should we expect to see in reality?
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Offline Lukvance

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Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #669 on: March 27, 2014, 03:44:07 PM »
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why qualify the existence of Loc-Nar 5s with 'for now', but not qualify the existence of Blarghs or god with 'for now'?  Are you now saying that the existence of something is predicated on more than just a name and a definition?
No need for more than that for something to exist.
I thought a little bit more about the "for now" and I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that. Loc-Nar 5s exist, I even think (but am not sure yet) jdawg70 created it.
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Do you mean that it's hard to come up with a subjectively good name?  Like not naming your kid Apple or something like that?
No, I mean like you tried to develop right after.
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it can be difficult to establish reasons for why you feel something exists.
So the question still remain could you find a better definition than the one I gave you to define "existing"?
If I understand you correctly jdawg70, something exist because of the follow up questions you ask about it. How many questions are enough? Do you know of something that exist? How did you know about it?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #670 on: March 27, 2014, 03:50:51 PM »
Here is the point. Existence in reality has to mean something other than we have a name for it. The thing has to have some effect in the world that we can expect to see if the thing exists.

In other words, the existence of the thing (say, a blargh) has to be different in some way from the non-existence of the thing. If the existence and the non-existence add up to the same result, why assume the thing is real? Other than as a joke or wordplay.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #671 on: March 27, 2014, 04:07:55 PM »
The blargh exist. We are discussing it. There are words written down about it. It even have a definition!
We couldn't do such things if it did not exist hence the existence and the non-existence of the Blargh do NOT add up to the same result.
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Existence in reality has to mean something other than we have a name for it.
Prove it! :) (or rather what makes you think this is true?)
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The thing has to have some effect in the world that we can expect to see if the thing exists.
Do you mean with your eyes? or other sense(s)? Are they infallible?
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #672 on: March 27, 2014, 04:09:40 PM »
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why qualify the existence of Loc-Nar 5s with 'for now', but not qualify the existence of Blarghs or god with 'for now'?  Are you now saying that the existence of something is predicated on more than just a name and a definition?
No need for more than that for something to exist.
I thought a little bit more about the "for now" and I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that. Loc-Nar 5s exist, I even think (but am not sure yet) jdawg70 created it.
Are we talking about the concept of god, Blarghs, and the Loc-Nar 5s?

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So the question still remain could you find a better definition than the one I gave you to define "existing"?
Well, I suppose a good starting point is a 'thingie' exists in reality if it has an effect or influence on other aspects of reality.  I suspect that there are philosophical and/or logical problems with that definition though, but let's start from there.

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If I understand you correctly jdawg70, something exist because of the follow up questions you ask about it. How many questions are enough? Do you know of something that exist? How did you know about it?
Enough to establish some level of confidence that the 'thingie' does exist and is not made up?  Depends on the nature of the 'thingie' I suppose.  The existence of the sun probably doesn't need a whole lot of questions asked about it before you at least acknowledge it's existence.  The existence of Flobort the Conqueror...probably a few more questions.

Before we get too far, I think it will be prudent to get this out of the way:
Do you believe that a shared, objective reality exists?  Not asking you to prove or disprove anything here...yes or no will do.
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Offline Lukvance

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Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #673 on: March 27, 2014, 05:02:20 PM »
Do you believe that a shared, objective reality exists?  Not asking you to prove or disprove anything here...yes or no will do.
Yes. But it's incomplete we do not have enough knowledge of it to comprehend it "fully".
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Are we talking about the concept of god, Blarghs, and the Loc-Nar 5s?
You tell me! :) Are concepts real? Do they exist?

The sun! Alright it's a good start. What makes you think the sun is real? (beside the fact that it is named and has a definition)
I should point out that in "definition" I put every characteristic that makes the "thing" the thing. Without it, it would be something else.

Also, aren't "real" and "exist" reaaaaaly close? My brain is on fire haha.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #674 on: March 27, 2014, 10:48:41 PM »
I agree, god exists.  But only on the same sense that other fictional, literary characters exist.  God happens to be a fictional  character that has a lot of influence, but otherwise he's no different from, say, Oliver Twist or Bella from Twilight.  More like Bella.  Not as well written as Twist.

There is no actual being named god that does stuff, like had a son (who was really him!) or created the world and flooded it in a terribly unsuccessful attempt to eradicate sin.  No.  That thing is imaginary.  Thank god.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #675 on: March 27, 2014, 11:26:51 PM »
I agree, god exists.  But only on the same sense that other fictional, literary characters exist.  God happens to be a fictional  character that has a lot of influence, but otherwise he's no different from, say, Oliver Twist or Bella from Twilight.  More like Bella.  Not as well written as Twist.
2,501,396 people might disagree with you... every 10 year. So around 250,140 people this year ((http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html) They chose to convert to Christianism and all of them will testify to you that God changed their lives. Not bad for a fictional character eh?
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There is no actual being named god that does stuff, like had a son (who was really him!)
The number of people above (plus me) would disagree with you. He does stuff, good stuff even! :)
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[...] or created the world and flooded it in a terribly unsuccessful attempt to eradicate sin.  No.  That thing is imaginary.  Thank god.
I totally agree with you Noah's flood is not an historical fact. (I recently discussed that here : http://plus.google.com/117806772055735121369/posts/NxuJpWPdCmM)
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #676 on: March 28, 2014, 02:48:01 AM »
I agree, god exists.  But only on the same sense that other fictional, literary characters exist.  God happens to be a fictional  character that has a lot of influence, but otherwise he's no different from, say, Oliver Twist or Bella from Twilight.  More like Bella.  Not as well written as Twist.
2,501,396 people might disagree with you... every 10 year. So around 250,140 people this year ((http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html) They chose to convert to Christianism and all of them will testify to you that God changed their lives. Not bad for a fictional character eh?

Argumentum ad populum fallacy.

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There is no actual being named god that does stuff, like had a son (who was really him!)
The number of people above (plus me) would disagree with you. He does stuff, good stuff even! :)

A repetition of the argumentum ad populum fallacy.


Ok, well you're off the mark quick time here. Who's for a game of fallacy bingo?
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #677 on: March 28, 2014, 04:11:59 AM »
2,501,396 people might disagree with you... every 10 year. So around 250,140 people this year ((http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html) They chose to convert to Christianism and all of them will testify to you that God changed their lives. Not bad for a fictional character eh?
The number of people above (plus me) would disagree with you. He does stuff, good stuff even! :)

I totally agree with you Noah's flood is not an historical fact.

Look at that chart again, the majority disagree with you. Twice as many chose other religions.

So you say Noah's flood is not factual? Many Christians disagree with you.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #678 on: March 28, 2014, 08:09:03 AM »
Do you believe that a shared, objective reality exists?  Not asking you to prove or disprove anything here...yes or no will do.
Yes. But it's incomplete we do not have enough knowledge of it to comprehend it "fully".
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Are we talking about the concept of god, Blarghs, and the Loc-Nar 5s?
You tell me! :) Are concepts real? Do they exist?

The sun! Alright it's a good start. What makes you think the sun is real? (beside the fact that it is named and has a definition)
I should point out that in "definition" I put every characteristic that makes the "thing" the thing. Without it, it would be something else.

Also, aren't "real" and "exist" reaaaaaly close? My brain is on fire haha.

The concept of the sun is real, sure enough.

The sun itself is real, sure enough.  I'm confident that it's real.  It's existence predicts a few manifestations of reality - for example, the day/night cycle.  That I feel heat from it, and see light from it.  The definition of the sun implies manifestations in the rest of reality if it were to actually exist.

Let's take the Loc-Nar 5s as another example.  It's actual existence necessarily implies the lack of existence of god and Blarghs (not the concepts of god and Blarghs - those do exist - but the actual manifestations of those concepts in reality.

Names and definitions are things that we sentient creatures use as tools for purposes of communication.  They are tools that enable us to describe reality.  They are not incantations that allow us to actually make manifest any ole random thing we can think of.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #679 on: March 28, 2014, 09:12:52 AM »
2,501,396 people might disagree with you... every 10 year. So around 250,140 people this year ((http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html) They chose to convert to Christianism and all of them will testify to you that God changed their lives. Not bad for a fictional character eh?

?  So what?  The number of people who believe autism is caused by vaccines is also growing.  What does that prove?  There are plenty of stupid people in the world.  Their dumb beliefs to not validate those beliefs.

The number of people above (plus me) would disagree with you.

Yes. People disagree with me.  So what?  That does not establish that god is not imaginary.

Look, I don't think you understand how things work here.  Let me try to help you before things turn ugly.  Obviously this is a site where people with different beliefs discuss those differences.  It is fine to make claims, but rational arguments with evidence are expected.  So far, you have made some claims about reality and then backed it up by pointing out a lot of other people agree with you.  Since we are trying to determine reality and not opinions, your support amounts to absolutely nothing.  It is called an Appeal to Popularity[1] and it is a losing argument (unless you are talking about elections, which we are not). In fact, it gives your post as an example of it.  So, kindly make a more rational argument and support it with evidence.

If that does not help, please ask questions.

Also, I will give you access to The Shelter (<--link).  It is an area where new theists here can acclimate.  This forum can be rough and people often need a chance to get used to it.

 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #680 on: March 28, 2014, 10:36:58 AM »
Yeah, and watch out for that Nam dude, he's smited you twice already for saying stupid shit; if you keep going down that path he might actually respond to you....wait...never mind.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #681 on: March 28, 2014, 02:24:35 PM »
The number of people above (plus me) would disagree with you. He does stuff, good stuff even! :)

Ah, Lukvance, but is it your hypothetical god doing these things, or is it some innate ability of the human mind that gets unlocked in response to a certain emotional/spiritual idiom?  Perhaps all you and other believers need is the idea of a god, and that your experience would be the same whether or not an actual god was behind the scenes.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #682 on: March 28, 2014, 03:04:58 PM »
Hello Astreja and Ataraxia, thank you for your imput.

The Appeal to Popularity is what you (Atheists) used to "prove" me wrong.
Like jdawg70 said, talking about the sun : "I feel heat from it, and see light from it."
I do feel the effect of God in my life. So he is real.
I mean let me peel his definition of what exist (and why) since he is the only one who dared answer that fundamental question that I asked what it seemed a lifetime ago.
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The concept of the sun is real, sure enough.
The sun itself is real, sure enough.  I'm confident that it's real.  It's existence predicts a few manifestations of reality - for example, the day/night cycle.  That I feel heat from it, and see light from it.  The definition of the sun implies manifestations in the rest of reality if it were to actually exist.
The concept of God is real, sure enough.
God itself is real, sure enough. I'm confident that he's real. His existence predicts a few manifestation of reality - for example people being changed by Him. That I feel him and talk to Him and listen to him (sometime). The definition of God implies manifestations in the rest of reality if it were to actually exist.
Plus I love the fact that you took the Sun as an example because of the Miracle of the SunWiki

I'm eager to read your answers : Astreja, screwtape, Foxy Freedom and Ataraxia. What do exist? and why?
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #683 on: March 28, 2014, 03:13:28 PM »
Hey Foxy Freedom
Look at that chart again, the majority disagree with you. Twice as many chose other religions.
So you say Noah's flood is not factual? Many Christians disagree with you.
Did look at the chart again. Found "The new converts to Christianity (2,501,396) adds the equivalent of more than the population of Latvia (2,268,000) or almost the U.S. State of Nevada (2,565,382) of new Christians to Christianity. Every year." and "The number of new converts to Christianity is more than TWICE the combined number of new converts to all the other tabulated religions, even if we take out those with negative numbers (2,501,396 vers. 1,090,541)."

Oh and send me those Christians :) we'll talk about historical facts.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #684 on: March 28, 2014, 03:47:53 PM »
There are two possibilities. There are no gods, or there are gods. Or one god, if you prefer.

While our perception is limited, our imaginations are not. So it is easy, inside of ones head, to override reality whenever convenient. And making stuff up is a universal hobby among humans.

Now you can get all philosophical and ask if reality is real and stuff, but you can't do that and also make broad statements about how many christians there are, because if it is all imagined, you might be the only one. Since you need backup, I'd think you would be a bit hesitant to dismiss them so lightly.  :)

I'm not the only one who perceives the sun. If i ignore its power on a summer day, I get sunburned. I can get sunburned in the winter, but it is harder. And that is consistent with the known track of the sun across our sky, as predicted using math and science. When I set something on the grass and leave it there for a week, the plants underneath suffer due to a lack of sunlight. The effect is obvious. And when the object is removed, if it hasn't been there too long, the grass and other plants pep right up. Because they again have access to the sun that some say may be imaginary.

Religion, on the other hand, can only point to their allegations that he is real. People such as yourself, Lukvance, can claim to feel him, but that is not universal. And others that do feel a god often feel a different one. Whereas the sun is universal. It will burn you whether you believe in it or not.

So while I've no doubt I could be in some sort of matrix thing thinking I'm sitting in front of a computer typing away, I like to think that if my imagination was the main player, I would not have gone to the trouble of imagining my first Mac, which took almost five minutes to boot up off of floppies. I tend to think I would never imagine GW Bush as president or, even less likely, Cheney as VP. My mind is not capable of going that low, so they must have been real. And if they are real, everything else is too. Albeit in forms none of our minds can perceive with exacting accuracy.

The concept of a god is easy to imagine, but extremely difficult to match up with reality as I know it. The source of the story, the bible, is a multi-interpreted tome which people have killed each other over for centuries. Often times when both sides believed it. And I have a heck of a time imagining an omnipotent god and an incompetent communicator rolled into one. But if people were involved, from conception until today, then it all makes sense in the world. The bible is incredibly consistent with human imagination. It is completely inconsistent with any creator that I would conjure up.

If your god is real, he's incompetent. Or he's set his standards too high for the people he himself created. Or he's been playing too many games and a lot of us have quit. In any case, I've spent over 50 years assuming that he doesn't exist. And I don't seem to have suffered very much in the process. In the meantime, I've watched people who self-identified themselves as good christians (just like you) suffer terribly at the hands of fate. Of course, I've also known good christians who were 97, to that isn't universal either. However, if christians can't agree amongst themselves, can't clearly benefit from being believers, and often can't find a way to convince doubters that their god is real, then it seems to me that it is far more likely that he is not real than he is.

And the fact that there is no hard evidence for his existence doesn't help either.

And by the way Lukvance I know you're impressed with big numbers, but converting 2.5 million new christians a year to a planet that grows by 81 million a year isn't, in an of itself, much of a claim. If you are going to bandy about numbers, you need far more context. Big isn't always big enough.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #685 on: March 28, 2014, 04:23:03 PM »
Welcome to the conversation ParkingPlaces.

I see that you Often bring up religion. There an exercise I love to do when people bash religion. I just replace the term with School/education. Try it, it's very funny how people can think Religion is bad and School/education is good.
I like the way you type. You bring up many ideas but I will stick to the one where you describe the sun as real. Since here we are talking about what is real and what is not.
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I'm not the only one who perceives the sun. If i ignore its power on a summer day, I get sunburned. I can get sunburned in the winter, but it is harder. And that is consistent with the known track of the sun across our sky, as predicted using math and science. When I set something on the grass and leave it there for a week, the plants underneath suffer due to a lack of sunlight. The effect is obvious. And when the object is removed, if it hasn't been there too long, the grass and other plants pep right up. Because they again have access to the sun that some say may be imaginary.
I'm not the only one who perceives God. If I ignore his power I will feel emptier. It is consistent with the known power of God to make you happier. If you remove me (let's say you lock me up) from God I will get less happy. The effect is obvious. And if you release me...if I wasn't there too long, I will get happier again. Because I will have again access to God that some say may be imaginary.
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People such as yourself, Lukvance, can claim to feel him, but that is not universal.
isn't that "The Appeal to Popularity" we talked about earlier?
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Whereas the sun is universal. It will burn you whether you believe in it or not.
So are you saying that people who don't get burn under the sun are not real?
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he's set his standards too high for the people he himself created
I partially agree with that part. It is high but not too high.
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And the fact that there is no hard evidence for his existence doesn't help either.
Am I not hard evidence enough?
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converting 2.5 million new christians a year to a planet that grows by 81 million a year isn't, in an of itself, much of a claim. If you are going to bandy about numbers, you need far more context. Big isn't always big enough.
You are right. But if you read correctly the website you'd seen that of the 81 Million More than 60 Million believe in God. Is that Big enough? :)
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #686 on: March 28, 2014, 05:22:26 PM »
Welcome to the conversation ParkingPlaces.

I see that you Often bring up religion. There an exercise I love to do when people bash religion. I just replace the term with School/education. Try it, it's very funny how people can think Religion is bad and School/education is good.
I like the way you type. You bring up many ideas but I will stick to the one where you describe the sun as real. Since here we are talking about what is real and what is not.
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I'm not the only one who perceives the sun. If i ignore its power on a summer day, I get sunburned. I can get sunburned in the winter, but it is harder. And that is consistent with the known track of the sun across our sky, as predicted using math and science. When I set something on the grass and leave it there for a week, the plants underneath suffer due to a lack of sunlight. The effect is obvious. And when the object is removed, if it hasn't been there too long, the grass and other plants pep right up. Because they again have access to the sun that some say may be imaginary.
I'm not the only one who perceives God. If I ignore his power I will feel emptier. It is consistent with the known power of God to make you happier. If you remove me (let's say you lock me up) from God I will get less happy. The effect is obvious. And if you release me...if I wasn't there too long, I will get happier again. Because I will have again access to God that some say may be imaginary.

All of that can be imagined. No actual god is required. Feeling emptier and actually being affected are two different things. I was told I believed in god when I was little, and I probably did, because i had no reason to doubt adults. But when I got old enough to think for myself, I realized that there is no god, and didn't feel a bit of emptiness once I reached that conclusion. Your emptiness would come from expecting it. My lack of emptiness came from not expecting it. Sounds like a human response to a human situation to me.
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People such as yourself, Lukvance, can claim to feel him, but that is not universal.

 isn't that "The Appeal to Popularity" we talked about earlier?
Yea, but I knew you would stick to it, so I thought I'd try speaking your language. You caught me.

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Whereas the sun is universal. It will burn you whether you believe in it or not.

So are you saying that people who don't get burn under the sun are not real?

Yep, people who don't get burned under the sun are not real. But since there is no such thing as a real live human who wouldn't get burned under the sun if exposed long enough (it is less than an hour for some people, a couple of hours for others), you have to imagine people who don't get burned.

Keep in mind how gullible and foolish people are. The sun is a great example. Did you know that skin cancer rates have actually gone up since companies began marketing sunscreen. Why? Because people foolishly think that sunscreen will protect them from the sun. And, not coincidentally, people have done things like refuse medical treatment for curable ailments because they thought their god would save them. Being wrong is a lousy way to try to be right.

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he's set his standards too high for the people he himself created

I partially agree with that part. It is high but not too high.

That reminds me of an irrelevant joke. A guy goes up to a woman and asks if she'll sleep with him for a million dollars. "Of course I will" she gushes.

"Well then, how about a dollar?"

"Of course not. What do you think I am, a whore?" she said, haughtily.

"We've already established that. Now we're just talking price."

When you're measuring something, be sure your standards are set before you decide the price you're willing to pay.

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And the fact that there is no hard evidence for his existence doesn't help either.

 Am I not hard evidence enough?

No, of course not silly. If that was all it took (an ardent believer or a few billion ardent believers), you wouldn't even have a job to do. The name of this site would be "Wonderful Reasons God Won't Heal Amputees" and life would otherwise be perfect.

I don't believe. I don't expect you to change your stance simply because I exist. People are involved. It is never that easy.

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converting 2.5 million new christians a year to a planet that grows by 81 million a year isn't, in an of itself, much of a claim. If you are going to bandy about numbers, you need far more context. Big isn't always big enough.
You are right. But if you read correctly the website you'd seen that of the 81 Million More than 60 Million believe in God. Is that Big enough? :)

Wow, I knew catholics pumped out the kids, but I thought some of the other denominations were a bit more chaste. In any case, you are saying that the 25-30% of the world that identifies as christian is churning out 75% of that kids, and that's impressive.

But that's fine. My point was that your numbers mean little when presented out of context. You were trying to push the 2 million figure as if it were automatically convincing. The only question I have is how do you have time to be here when you're needed to help make newbie christians at the prodigious rate you claimed? I mean, its gonna take every believer to whip out that many little sinners.

Oh, and can you verify that 75% number?

Edit: I messed the quoting up something fierce. Fixed it.
Edit 2: I fixed it again because I'm so good!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 06:05:39 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #687 on: March 28, 2014, 11:53:31 PM »
I'm eager to read your answers : Astreja, screwtape, Foxy Freedom and Ataraxia. What do exist? and why?

Well, I'm both a pragmatist and a strong agnostic, and I believe that absolute knowledge of anything is an unreachable goal.  To Me, it matters not one whit whether the universe we perceive is "real" or just a solipsistic illusion.  I'm more concerned with how I can consistently interact with it from day to day.  Therefore, inasmuch as something presents itself as stable and behaves in a fairly predictable fashion, that's all I ask of it.  It may not be real, but it's real enough.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #688 on: March 29, 2014, 02:10:04 AM »
[...] you are saying that the 25-30% of the world that identifies as christian is churning out 75% of that kids, and that's impressive.
No no no. I'm saying that 75% of people in the world today believe in God. It's not only Christian. To be exact : 4,422,400,405 out of 605,5049,000 people believe in God. You can read the data on the website I cited before.
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You were trying to push the 2 million figure as if it were automatically convincing. The only question I have is how do you have time to be here when you're needed to help make newbie christians at the prodigious rate you claimed? I mean, its gonna take every believer to whip out that many little sinners.
I guess this is you making fun of me, right? Hilarious
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Feeling emptier and actually being affected are two different things.
Both are feelings you cannot deny being affected not can you deny my feeling. It's like saying my feeling does not exist and your state "being affected" does. Me having a feeling is not me being affected?
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Your emptiness would come from expecting it. My lack of emptiness came from not expecting it. Sounds like a human response to a human situation to me
How do you know where my emptiness comes from? Do I have to feel the same way you do to be real?
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All of that can be imagined. No actual god is required.
All of that can be "imagined". No actual Sun is required. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/04/health/cases-the-sunless-sunburn-mystery.html
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Yep, people who don't get burned under the sun are not real. But since there is no such thing as a real live human who wouldn't get burned under the sun if exposed long enough (it is less than an hour for some people, a couple of hours for others), you have to imagine people who don't get burned.
Put a roof over your head and voilà! No more burning under the sun. Some air conditioner and a nice Margarita, now you're talking! :)  Does people cease to exist when they put clothes on? Move into a building? Oh and according to this site (witch is not the best I know but hey it will do the trick) http://www.notpasty.com/never-sunburn-still-need-sunscreen/ Some people do not burn under the sun. What I meant by the original question was that you can disobey some law that makes your sun real and still be real.
Am I not hard evidence enough?
No, of course not silly.
But so many things in your life don't need more hard evidence to be real. Don't you know how the sun move around the world because someone told you so? Did you have to go to space to make sure that it was real? Did you took a piece of the sun to make sure that it was indeed made of the atom he told you it was made of?

Therefore, inasmuch as something presents itself as stable and behaves in a fairly predictable fashion, that's all I ask of it.  It may not be real, but it's real enough.
It's simple, I like it! Thank you.
So, do you believe God exist? If not, why? Is he unstable? Doesn't he behave in a fairly predictable fashion? What about Love? Does it exist? It doesn't always present itself as stable and often do not behaves in a fairly predictable fashion.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #689 on: March 29, 2014, 02:49:44 AM »
So, do you believe God exist? If not, why? Is he unstable? Doesn't he behave in a fairly predictable fashion?

I'm open to the possibility that a god or gods might exist, but I consider Myself an atheist because I wouldn't testify in court that any gods did exist.

As to why not, so far I haven't seen anything for which "God" was a particularly compelling answer.  Most of the phenomena that awed earlier generations, such as solar eclipses and lightning, are now adequately answered by science.  I'm not in a hurry for the rest of the answers, so I'd rather use "We don't know yet" as the placeholder rather than assigning a personality to all the unknowns in the physical universe.  If the past is any indication we'll continue to come up with explanations, and any territory we give to gods we'll have to expropriate anyway.

Probably the safest place for a deity to hide right now is in one's own mind -- If and when we have to face the part of ourselves that terrifies us, that's when we would most appreciate some backup.

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What about Love? Does it exist? It doesn't always present itself as stable and often do not behaves in a fairly predictable fashion.

I see love as an action rather than an entity, and because actions can vary in myriad ways there isn't much point in talking about consistency there.  If it could be demonstrated that "love" was an actual being, then I would expect it to act in a predictable manner.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #690 on: March 29, 2014, 04:09:42 AM »
There an exercise I love to do when people bash religion. I just replace the term with School/education. Try it, it's very funny how people can think Religion is bad and School/education is good.

You're an idiot.

Has it never passed through your brain that education is good.

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #691 on: March 29, 2014, 04:34:17 AM »
Did look at the chart again. Found "The new converts to Christianity (2,501,396) adds the equivalent of more than the population of Latvia (2,268,000) or almost the U.S. State of Nevada (2,565,382) of new Christians to Christianity. Every year." and "The number of new converts to Christianity is more than TWICE the combined number of new converts to all the other tabulated religions, even if we take out those with negative numbers (2,501,396 vers. 1,090,541)."

You chose the smaller totals of converts. As you can see most people just believe the religion they are brought up with because that is what they are told.

Now let's take these converts to Christianity and ask how many of them believe the same thing as each other, or the same as you?

I am always amazed when religious people try to claim a belief is true because of the number of people who believe it. Every religious person believes something different and each person's god is an aspect of their own character. (often an aspect of their character which they won't admit to themselves). Raw numbers of population mean nothing when you are talking about religion.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #692 on: March 29, 2014, 04:57:13 AM »
Hello Astreja and Ataraxia, thank you for your imput.

The Appeal to Popularity is what you (Atheists) used to "prove" me wrong.
Like jdawg70 said, talking about the sun : "I feel heat from it, and see light from it."
I do feel the effect of God in my life. So he is real.
I mean let me peel his definition of what exist (and why) since he is the only one who dared answer that fundamental question that I asked what it seemed a lifetime ago.
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The concept of the sun is real, sure enough.
The sun itself is real, sure enough.  I'm confident that it's real.  It's existence predicts a few manifestations of reality - for example, the day/night cycle.  That I feel heat from it, and see light from it.  The definition of the sun implies manifestations in the rest of reality if it were to actually exist.
The concept of God is real, sure enough.
God itself is real, sure enough. I'm confident that he's real. His existence predicts a few manifestation of reality - for example people being changed by Him. That I feel him and talk to Him and listen to him (sometime). The definition of God implies manifestations in the rest of reality if it were to actually exist.
Plus I love the fact that you took the Sun as an example because of the Miracle of the SunWiki

I'm eager to read your answers : Astreja, screwtape, Foxy Freedom and Ataraxia. What do exist? and why?

The mistake you are making here is that you are confusing a concept with reality. It is true that people are changed by concepts but that does not make the concept real.

Reality changes things without needing a concept for it. The sun kills animals and bacteria in the desert whether they have a concept of the sun or not. Wind blowing a goat off a cliff will kill the goat whether the goat has a concept of wind and gravity or not. An asteroid killed the dinosaurs whether they had a concept of asteroids and the rest of the universe or not.

Let's see any god acting independently of its concept (that is independently of any belief in it) by moving the stars in the sky to read in big letters

I am here

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #693 on: March 29, 2014, 06:37:12 AM »
I haven't seen anything for which "God" was a particularly compelling answer. 
Does this mean that for something to exist it must be a "particularly compelling answer"?
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I see love as an action rather than an entity, and because actions can vary in myriad ways there isn't much point in talking about consistency there.  If it could be demonstrated that "love" was an actual being, then I would expect it to act in a predictable manner.
So? does love exist? (it's a yes or no question) If so, could you maybe rethink your answer to "What do exist? and why?"
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #694 on: March 29, 2014, 07:08:19 AM »
So? does love exist? (it's a yes or no question) If so, could you maybe rethink your answer to "What do exist? and why?"

Same mistake I just mentioned.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #695 on: March 29, 2014, 08:48:26 AM »
[...] you are saying that the 25-30% of the world that identifies as christian is churning out 75% of that kids, and that's impressive.
No no no. I'm saying that 75% of people in the world today believe in God. It's not only Christian. To be exact : 4,422,400,405 out of 605,5049,000 people believe in God. You can read the data on the website I cited before.
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You were trying to push the 2 million figure as if it were automatically convincing. The only question I have is how do you have time to be here when you're needed to help make newbie christians at the prodigious rate you claimed? I mean, its gonna take every believer to whip out that many little sinners.
I guess this is you making fun of me, right? Hilarious

So while you are saying it wonderful that 2 million people are converting to christianity, you are simultaneously saying that you don't care what religion people are as long as they believe in one god or another. At no point in your earlier posts did I see you lauding Hinduism, the Muslims, zoroastrianism, scientology, sikhs, etc. You didn't mention the people being converted to those religions. So I jumped to the conclusion that you were making a christian-specific claim, without realizing that you willing to move the goalposts if called on those numbers. I misunderestimated your flexibility in such matters.

I wasn't making fun of you. I was making fun of religion. You'll need to learn the difference. Its subtle, but real.

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Feeling emptier and actually being affected are two different things.
Both are feelings you cannot deny being affected not can you deny my feeling. It's like saying my feeling does not exist and your state "being affected" does. Me having a feeling is not me being affected?
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Your emptiness would come from expecting it. My lack of emptiness came from not expecting it. Sounds like a human response to a human situation to me
How do you know where my emptiness comes from? Do I have to feel the same way you do to be real?
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All of that can be imagined. No actual god is required.
All of that can be "imagined". No actual Sun is required. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/04/health/cases-the-sunless-sunburn-mystery.html
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Yep, people who don't get burned under the sun are not real. But since there is no such thing as a real live human who wouldn't get burned under the sun if exposed long enough (it is less than an hour for some people, a couple of hours for others), you have to imagine people who don't get burned.
Put a roof over your head and voilà! No more burning under the sun. Some air conditioner and a nice Margarita, now you're talking! :)  Does people cease to exist when they put clothes on? Move into a building? Oh and according to this site (witch is not the best I know but hey it will do the trick) http://www.notpasty.com/never-sunburn-still-need-sunscreen/ Some people do not burn under the sun. What I meant by the original question was that you can disobey some law that makes your sun real and still be real.
Am I not hard evidence enough?
No, of course not silly.
But so many things in your life don't need more hard evidence to be real. Don't you know how the sun move around the world because someone told you so? Did you have to go to space to make sure that it was real? Did you took a piece of the sun to make sure that it was indeed made of the atom he told you it was made of?

You really need to work on your quoting. Somehow your posts are a mess that are almost impossible to decipher when responding. You're allowed to use the return key and make paragraphs and stuff instead of insisting it be a wall of text.

This picture shows what I am facing when trying to respond to what you wrote above, and it doesn't have to be this way. It is bad enough that you messed up quote blocks. We all do that occasionally. To prevent such things, click on the preview button before you post when you've done a lot of quoting. And learn the the return and space keys are your friend. Int his case you have the messed up quotes so scrunched up that I can't separate anything out for response.  I don't have the time to wade through such a mess and figure out where to separate out quotes and such. PM me for advise if you can't figure it out yourself.



The gist of the conversation appears to be this. You compared god to the sun, asking how we knew the sun was there. And I said that we all get sunburned, and that is evidence, and you go out and find a few folks that get sunburned without the sun and think that's a wonderful response. And I have no idea what you mean by "What I meant by the original question was that you can disobey some law that makes your sun real and still be real". You might take the time to restate you case for the sun/god thing in a way that I can respond to.

And please don't combine posts from different people like you did here. It makes it even harder for us to respond. You can create separate posts without fear of reprisal.

Therefore, inasmuch as something presents itself as stable and behaves in a fairly predictable fashion, that's all I ask of it.  It may not be real, but it's real enough.
It's simple, I like it! Thank you.
So, do you believe God exist? If not, why? Is he unstable? Doesn't he behave in a fairly predictable fashion? What about Love? Does it exist? It doesn't always present itself as stable and often do not behaves in a fairly predictable fashion.
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Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!