Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 54157 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1337
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1479 on: August 17, 2014, 07:25:19 AM »
In the context we were talking about love. Does love exist less than humans?

In the context that we were talking about the human concept of love is entirely dependent on humans and entirely subjective. A human can be proven to exist if it meets the arbitrary criteria set out to define a human, as love is an abstract concept it is open to interpretation by the individual concerned.

Does love exist less than humans?
Yes and no depending on your definition of "exist" and "less"

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1480 on: August 18, 2014, 03:16:40 PM »
In the context we were talking about love. Does love exist less than humans?

In the context that we were talking about the human concept of love is entirely dependent on humans and entirely subjective. A human can be proven to exist if it meets the arbitrary criteria set out to define a human, as love is an abstract concept it is open to interpretation by the individual concerned.

Does love exist less than humans?
Yes and no depending on your definition of "exist" and "less"
Exactly! How would you define "exist"? And "less"?
I define exist as : Something exist as long as it has a definition and a name.
Less as :  Not as great in amount or quantity.
For me exist is not a quantity. Real is.
Real : A thing or whole having actual existence. For me some things are more real than others even if they both exist.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1481 on: August 18, 2014, 03:21:24 PM »
Graybeard is using his mod mode for replying me instead of moderating. Should that be allowed?
Am I really the only one who needs to be moderated? The only one at fault here?
I understand that people like him want proof of God existing outside our Body. They also want this thread to be about that. But unfortunately, it is not. It might be implied by the one who created the thread but it doesn't say that much specifically. That's why I created a thread that ask the specific question : http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26874.0.html
You're worth more than my time

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1482 on: August 18, 2014, 04:08:16 PM »
In the context we were talking about love. Does love exist less than humans?

In the context that we were talking about the human concept of love is entirely dependent on humans and entirely subjective. A human can be proven to exist if it meets the arbitrary criteria set out to define a human, as love is an abstract concept it is open to interpretation by the individual concerned.

Does love exist less than humans?
Yes and no depending on your definition of "exist" and "less"
Exactly! How would you define "exist"? And "less"?
I define exist as : Something exist as long as it has a definition and a name.
Less as :  Not as great in amount or quantity.
For me exist is not a quantity. Real is.
Real : A thing or whole having actual existence. For me some things are more real than others even if they both exist.

You are the only person I have ever encountered who defined existence as "having a name and a definition".  &)

That is like ancient people who believed that words had magical conjuring powers, that naming was the same as creating it.  "And god said let there be light" and so on. People did not say an evil being's name because that called it up. Parent did not give anyone their baby's real name because a witch could use it to cast a spell and curse the baby. Naming gave you power over something.

Do you also think that something that has no name or definition does not exist? Of course I am referring to disease germs, plants, animals, insects, planets, stars, etc. that we humans have not yet discovered, and therefore have not named or defined.

Do those not exist? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1483 on: August 18, 2014, 06:09:16 PM »
Do you also think that something that has no name or definition does not exist? Of course I am referring to disease germs, plants, animals, insects, planets, stars, etc. that we humans have not yet discovered, and therefore have not named or defined.
Do those not exist? :?
That's a good question. We have a definition for disease germs, plants, animals, insects...etc So these undiscovered things have a definition. And a name too! They are called "this undiscovered disease germs, plants, animals, insects...etc"
My definition of exist doesn't mean that it is real real...it allows things to be real only in your imagination (so less real than a chair for example)
It came up after a really long discussion on what "exist". This is the only acceptable solution that I found.
The fact that we discuss something makes it automatically existent. We wouldn't be able to discuss it if it didn't exist.
You're worth more than my time

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6614
  • Darwins +791/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1484 on: August 18, 2014, 06:54:53 PM »
The fact that we discuss something makes it automatically existent. We wouldn't be able to discuss it if it didn't exist.

If you and I were Star Trek fans, we would be able to discuss every single episode of every single series, and yet not a single spaceship full of humans has ever flown through our galaxy.

Humans can discuss that which they imagine just as they can discuss things that are real.

Stuff actually existing is not a requirement for such discussions.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1485 on: August 18, 2014, 07:17:41 PM »
The fact that we discuss something makes it automatically existent. We wouldn't be able to discuss it if it didn't exist.
If you and I were Star Trek fans, we would be able to discuss every single episode of every single series, and yet not a single spaceship full of humans has ever flown through our galaxy.
Humans can discuss that which they imagine just as they can discuss things that are real.
Stuff actually existing is not a requirement for such discussions.
That's where we disagree. Because when you think of it, what does exist?
I think everything that has an impact on reality. Like love. or Star Trek. What do you think?
Could you define it with your words? Or the Oxford dictionary if you feel it's exact?
You're worth more than my time

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6614
  • Darwins +791/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1486 on: August 18, 2014, 07:48:47 PM »
The fact that we discuss something makes it automatically existent. We wouldn't be able to discuss it if it didn't exist.
If you and I were Star Trek fans, we would be able to discuss every single episode of every single series, and yet not a single spaceship full of humans has ever flown through our galaxy.
Humans can discuss that which they imagine just as they can discuss things that are real.
Stuff actually existing is not a requirement for such discussions.
That's where we disagree. Because when you think of it, what does exist?
I think everything that has an impact on reality. Like love. or Star Trek. What do you think?
Could you define it with your words? Or the Oxford dictionary if you feel it's exact?

Yes, even the imagined has an impact on reality. That doesn't make it real. People thinking that leprechauns are real exist in Ireland. That act accordingly. That there are no leprechauns affects their credibility, but not their reality. Which imagines them to be real.

Now before you ask me how I know leprechauns are not real, keep in mind that I have to treat all audacious claims, be they of little people or big gods, as ever so slightly possible, even when highly unlikely. Because made up crap is notoriously difficult to disprove when the claimants make allowance for undetectability in their story.

I can say that there are zoot cows, three inch high bovines that travel through our bodies at the speed of light and cause stoplights to turn green for us if they like us when they pass through. And you can't see them, of course, because they are too fast. Sometimes you catch a glimpse of something out of the corner of your eye, and sometimes that is a zoot cow, but there is no way to slow them down and make them visible, so you'll just have to believe me.

There, a new reality. Custom made, just for you, Luk. I do hope you appreciate my efforts. Especially the next time you're driving and you get more green lights than usual.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1487 on: August 18, 2014, 07:56:18 PM »
Yes! Haha. Zoots cows for the win :)
What does exist?
Like love. or Star Trek. What do you think?
Could you define it with your words? Or the Oxford dictionary if you feel it's exact?
I explained to nogodsforme "My definition of exist doesn't mean that it is real real" and Mrjason "For me exist is not a quantity. Real is." My chair is 100%real. The zoots cows... 0.0001% :) I don't want to give up the chance that such cute cows are real hehe.
You're worth more than my time

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6614
  • Darwins +791/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1488 on: August 18, 2014, 08:14:01 PM »
Yes! Haha. Zoots cows for the win :)
What does exist?
Like love. or Star Trek. What do you think?
Could you define it with your words? Or the Oxford dictionary if you feel it's exact?
I explained to nogodsforme "My definition of exist doesn't mean that it is real real" and Mrjason "For me exist is not a quantity. Real is." My chair is 100%real. The zoots cows... 0.0001% :) I don't want to give up the chance that such cute cows are real hehe.

You are allowed to use your own definitions for anything you want. You can call blood "chocolate milk", mosquitos "really big birds" and farts "Beethoven's 5th Symphony". But for those new meanings to be of any use, others of us have to agree with them, or you can no longer communicate effectively. If you were to tweet "Some really big birds just drank my chocolate milk, and it scared me so much I played Beethoven's 5th Symphony", nobody not privy to your private vocabulary would understand a word of it.

So if for you, your definition of exist does mean that it is real, yet you readily dismiss, almost completely, my zoo cows, because you otherwise have enough information about existence to discard them. Which means that you are telling us that you get to choose your own reality, whether we like it or not. And whether it is accurate or not. Or even if it is a useless one. You don't feel constrained by any of the norms of reality, because you can have things exist that aren't real. Once you've set the precedence of saying things can exist without being real, you can also say things that are real don't exist. At which point, language becomes irrelevant.

Making up new meanings for words to fulfill your philosophical needs isn't quite as cute as you think.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 08:49:13 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12677
  • Darwins +333/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1489 on: August 18, 2014, 08:56:28 PM »
Where was I when lukvance communicated effectively?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1490 on: August 19, 2014, 01:58:17 PM »
So if for you, your definition of exist does mean that it is real, yet you readily dismiss, almost completely, my zoo cows, because you otherwise have enough information about existence to discard them. Which means that you are telling us that you get to choose your own reality, whether we like it or not. And whether it is accurate or not. Or even if it is a useless one. You don't feel constrained by any of the norms of reality, because you can have things exist that aren't real. Once you've set the precedence of saying things can exist without being real, you can also say things that are real don't exist. At which point, language becomes irrelevant.

Making up new meanings for words to fulfill your philosophical needs isn't quite as cute as you think.
Lol. You know what. I shared my view. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to criticize it neither. You didn't answer my questions about what is real for you. There must be a reason for that... are you afraid that all that you said about my view applies to yours too?
What does exist?
Like love. or Star Trek. What do you think?
Could you define it with your words? Or the Oxford dictionary if you feel it's exact?
Next time try to not dodge the question again. Or you can write nothing too if you prefer. No one is forcing you to write. :)
I'll finish with an appropriate quote :
 “Don't criticize what you can't understand.” - Bob Dylan
You're worth more than my time

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1491 on: August 20, 2014, 01:28:21 PM »
Lukvance, we have had other religious folks come here, and when they can't make us accept their illogical arguments, they do the same thing you have, which is retreat into nonsense:  "Well, we can't really know anything for sure anyway, and it is all up to faith, and everyone has their own reality, and my reality says that god is real and that's that."

But if you really truly thought that, you would have to also accept the possibility that our reality is correct: that god is not real. And that Satan could be responsible for the handful of miracle healings at Lourdes, especially since millions of people are overall made worse off by going there. And that love, fear, and even religious feelings are emotions is produced by chemicals in the brain.

You don't accept that Satan heals people at Lourdes, so you do believe that there is an objective reality out there, not just up to each person to decide for themselves. Except when reality disagrees with you.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1492 on: August 20, 2014, 01:51:26 PM »
What Is the non sense in God is at least as real as Love?
You're worth more than my time

Offline reynolds

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1493 on: August 20, 2014, 05:43:50 PM »
Wow I don't belong here.. I'm simply full of faith hahaha :o

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11134
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1494 on: August 20, 2014, 05:48:13 PM »
Wow I don't belong here.. I'm simply full of faith hahaha :o

Uh... Not to be mean, but... Who are you, exactly? I don't believe I've seen your username before.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Online Defiance

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
  • Darwins +26/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1495 on: August 20, 2014, 07:48:42 PM »
What Is the non sense in God is at least as real as Love?
Nothing.

Love is an imaginary concept made up in mind. So is god.

No nonsense.

Therefore; Flying Spaghetti Monster is as real as love.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1496 on: August 20, 2014, 11:11:31 PM »
What Is the non sense in God is at least as real as Love?
Nothing.

Love is an imaginary concept made up in mind. So is god.

No nonsense.

Therefore; Flying Spaghetti Monster is as real as love.

So is Thor. I can't wait to meet him. I am just as likely to meet Thor at some point during my life as I am of meeting the gods skeptic, Jst and Lukvance believe in .
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1497 on: August 21, 2014, 12:03:46 PM »
So is Thor. I can't wait to meet him. I am just as likely to meet Thor at some point during my life as I am of meeting the gods skeptic, Jst and Lukvance believe in .
Are you ready to defend the fact that Thor is (at least) as real as love?
If not, why the reply?
You're worth more than my time

Online Dante

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2237
  • Darwins +74/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • Hedonist Extraordinaire
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1498 on: August 21, 2014, 12:59:29 PM »

So is Thor. I can't wait to meet him. I am just as likely to meet Thor at some point during my life as I am of meeting the gods skeptic, Jst and Lukvance believe in .
Are you ready to defend the fact that Thor is (at least) as real as love?
If not, why the reply?

What Is the non sense in God Thor is at least as real as Love?

See the difference?

Me neither.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Zankuu

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2116
  • Darwins +135/-3
  • Gender: Male
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1499 on: August 21, 2014, 01:04:41 PM »
So is Thor. I can't wait to meet him. I am just as likely to meet Thor at some point during my life as I am of meeting the gods skeptic, Jst and Lukvance believe in .
Are you ready to defend the fact that Thor is (at least) as real as love?

Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Online Defiance

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
  • Darwins +26/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1500 on: August 21, 2014, 03:31:22 PM »
This guy can't be serious.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1501 on: August 21, 2014, 03:38:31 PM »
So is Thor. I can't wait to meet him. I am just as likely to meet Thor at some point during my life as I am of meeting the gods skeptic, Jst and Lukvance believe in .
Are you ready to defend the fact that Thor is (at least) as real as love?
If not, why the reply?

You know what? Thor is imaginary. Thor is a made up fictional character. He is not a real being--some artist drew him and some actor dresses up like the drawing. He only appears in movies and in cartoons. He does not now exist and never has existed in reality. He was never a real being who walked the earth. Thor has no actual physical form--no blood, hair, skin or eyeballs. He is imaginary. That means that when people stop thinking about him, he disappears. Forever. Poof. Gone. Like all the thousands of obsolete gods that nobody believes in anymore.

Love is an emotional reaction physically produced by chemicals in the brain. As long as there are brains and the right chemicals, there will be love. There are no "thor" chemicals in the brain. Thor is not an emotion. He is an imaginary fictional character.

I don't know what more I can say here.

Except that Thor is hawt.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1502 on: August 21, 2014, 04:59:00 PM »
So is Thor. I can't wait to meet him. I am just as likely to meet Thor at some point during my life as I am of meeting the gods skeptic, Jst and Lukvance believe in .
Are you ready to defend the fact that Thor is (at least) as real as love?
If not, why the reply?

You know what? Thor is imaginary. Thor is a made up fictional character. He is not a real being--some artist drew him and some actor dresses up like the drawing. He only appears in movies and in cartoons. He does not now exist and never has existed in reality. He was never a real being who walked the earth. Thor has no actual physical form--no blood, hair, skin or eyeballs. He is imaginary. That means that when people stop thinking about him, he disappears. Forever. Poof. Gone. Like all the thousands of obsolete gods that nobody believes in anymore.

Love is an emotional reaction physically produced by chemicals in the brain. As long as there are brains and the right chemicals, there will be love. There are no "thor" chemicals in the brain. Thor is not an emotion. He is an imaginary fictional character.

I don't know what more I can say here.

Except that Thor is hawt.
I'll take that is a "no" to my first question? Could you answer the second?
You're worth more than my time

Online Defiance

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
  • Darwins +26/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1503 on: August 21, 2014, 05:01:27 PM »
Sad to see nogodsforme will probably merit that with a response.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1504 on: August 21, 2014, 09:33:53 PM »
Naw. I'm done here. Lukvance can go find someone else to play with.

You know how there is that one kid on the playground that nobody likes but the moms make everyone take turns playing with them? 

"Just be nice for a while-- they can't help how they are."
"Okay. But I want to go to the ice cream man for an orange bomb pop after."

It's time for my orange bomb pop now.  :angel:
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 09:39:58 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

  • Emergency Room
  • ******
  • Posts: 1982
  • Darwins +13/-258
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1505 on: August 22, 2014, 12:18:34 PM »
I understand.
You keep pushing ideas (like Thor) for the only reason that they are not like mine. Even if you don't believe in them.
You do well to flee instead of justifying your comportment.
Bye.
You're worth more than my time

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Darwins +61/-14
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1506 on: August 22, 2014, 01:21:36 PM »
I understand.
You keep pushing ideas (like Thor) for the only reason that they are not like mine. Even if you don't believe in them.
You do well to flee instead of justifying your comportment.
Bye.


I believe you have that wrong.  Thor is repeatedly introduced to you because You and the atheist both agree that he does not exist.  It is a common ground to show you that a mythical being once thought to be true, worshipped, who worked miracles, and millions prayed to him for thousands of years.  It is also a mythical being that there was not a shred of evidence for beyond the gaps in our knowledge.

Online Defiance

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
  • Darwins +26/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1507 on: August 22, 2014, 08:36:51 PM »
I understand.
No, you certainly do not.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.