Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 50018 times)

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Offline kin hell

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #145 on: March 07, 2012, 10:14:59 PM »
Thanks very much for the feedback.
you're welcome

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I don't appreciate being cussed out for offering an opinion though.

You should be thanking me for making it so easy for you to be able to play the so sadly predictable theists perennial "victim" card.

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Guys, you have to learn to express your beliefs without insulting the other person.

Oh yeah mate and I suppose
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I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding.
isn't dismissive, presumptuous and insulting?

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You also have to learn to respect other people's opinions. 
replay for hilarious hypocrisy
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I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding.


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Oh well.  I thought this somewhere to come, where one can be respected.  Apparently not.
 
and your first words were what?
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I'm not here to debate.
you don't even show enough respect to allow the possibility of dissension, conversation or discussion regarding the "pronouncements" you came here to make.
You weren't offering a, different but respectful, opinion in any respectful way, you were perching yourself on your pompous preaching pulpit, and loudly proclaiming from a position of previously denied right of redress to the very people whose site you were visiting as a guest.

I mean step right into our perfumed hallowed halls, and yes we understand that we are forced to accept that you are forbidding us any response to the great steaming turd you feel so necessary to dump on our floor.

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This is just a bashing forum.
So run home sobbing to mommy then.
You're "not here to debate us", so you must just be here to be bashed.

are you abashed?

you should be.

Of course if you'd like to qualify every insulting and dismissively presumptuous observation and "suggestion" you made in your "I'm not here to debate" post, then I, like most humanist rationalists, would be happy to listen to what you have to say.

But don't ever come here expecting to meet "turn the other cheek" christians who meekly bow to your desires.




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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #146 on: March 07, 2012, 10:59:19 PM »

Addendum:

As I wrote this, I strongly suggest to really reconsider your strong opinions about things of which you have no understanding.  posted something reasonable and then disappeared. Had he used that frame of mind and tone perhaps we could have had some interesting discussions. We wouldn't have agreed on much, I'm sure, but we could have kept things civil.

C'est la vie.

Boy, I sure messed up that post. Just wanted to make it clear what I meant to say. Someone taught me about cut and paste and forgot to tell me it was easy to paste the wrong thing. And sadly I didn't notice until after the available edit time period closed.

What it was supposed to say was:

As I wrote this, dctrtuba posted something reasonable and then disappeared. Had he used that frame of mind and tone perhaps we could have had some interesting discussions. We wouldn't have agreed on much, I'm sure, but we could have kept things civil.

They say "live and learn". I'm past that. Barely alive and learning nothing. Just thought I'd clarify...
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2012, 08:55:19 AM »
Thanks very much for the feedback.  I don't appreciate being cussed out for offering an opinion though.  Guys, you have to learn to express your beliefs without insulting the other person.  You also have to learn to respect other people's opinions.  Oh well.  I thought this somewhere to come, where one can be respected.  Apparently not.  This is just a bashing forum.

ah, so you were looking for external validation and not a discussion at all. 

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I went through a very long time in my life where I studied the heck out of science and philosophy.  Everyone will come up with a different conclusion, because there is so much information to consider.  What is important, is to gather all of the information, then make a decision.
I'm more than willing to put down my beliefs and listen....as I did when I spent time discussing beliefs with athiests.  Yes, I should've worded my post differently.  And there a difference between just cussing, and being cussed AT.  The latter is what I have a problem with.
Since I was insulted so badly, I'm deleting my account. 
I hope that everyone has a nice afternoon.  I mean no insult to anyone, or anyone's beliefs.
You made baseless claims and insisted that no one knew as much as you.  In that there is no way for a human to get "all of the information, one must make a decision based on what one can find out, and that information on this world, indicates that there are no gods or supernatural nonsense. 

I am guessing that you really would have no problems with people cussing at you *if* you thought yuo had a chance at convincing them you were right.  But since you have no evidence of your claims, you pick up your skirts and go off in a huff

"You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff." Groucho Marx
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #148 on: March 09, 2012, 01:13:54 PM »
OK, here's my problem.

A friend of mine once argued with me on certain topic (Religion of course, Christian to be exact).
Which i really don't give a shit about what she said.
I just don't believe in God, so leave me alone. I'm not forcing her to believe in what i believe anyway (which is Science).
I even say "Okay" when she told me i am going to hell if i don't believe in Jesus.
Then we have a argument.

When i can almost feel i'm going to win that argument.
Then suddenly she beat my argument with this analogy.

One day, there is a scruffy looked man go to a barbershop...(snipped)

Well, i paused for a while.
I tried to argue more, but it feels like i'm already losing...

Can someone help me to answer that?
I don't like feeling like a loser after she came up with that.

I remember that story. Here's an improved version:
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A Christian went to his favorite barbershop for his weekly haircut and beard trimming. In the course of their conversation, they touched upon the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't think that God exists as you believe."

"Why do you think that?" asked the Christian.

"Well, it's so easy; you only have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. If God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abused or crippled children? If God existed, there would be no suffering or pain. Would there be murder or even war? I can not imagine a loving God who would permit ANY of these things."

The Christian didn't want to enter into an argument and could think of no immediate response to the barber's logic. The barber finished his job and the Christian fellow left the shop. The moment he stepped out the door he saw a man sitting on the curb whose long hair and beard were in need of a barber's attention (It looked so long, dirty and untidy).

The Christian turned and reentered the barber shop and said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers absolutely do not exist!"

"How can you say that barbers do not exist?" exclaimed the barber. "Well, I'm here and I'm a barber. I just cut your hair!!!"

"No!" the Christian exclaimed. "Barbers do not exist; because if they did exist, there would be no people with long hair and stringy beard like that man out there in the street, sitting on the curb."

"Wow, what a stupid argument," the barber replied "I see where this is going. So, would you agree that some people like their hair long?"

"Well, yes" admitted the christian.

"And do you know anyone who wants to suffer the horrible things that go on in the world?" continued the barber.

"No... but that's not the point. The point is that there are people with long hair." said the christian.

"Assuming that I didn't just address that, which I did, there is the detail that you purport that god is omnipotent. I'm not. I can't remedy everyone's 'long hair' problem; god is supposed to be able to. Furthermore, I do this as a career, not out of the goodness of my heart. I don't give everyone I can free haircuts, because I have to make a living. Is this why god allows horrific suffering?" the barber queried.

"La la la la la! I'm not listening!" cried the christian, who then stuck his fingers in his ears and ran out of the barbershop.

I can't remember where I got it, though. It might have even been this forum.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline Betelnut

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Re: I know God lives through faith and the Holy Ghost
« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2012, 06:29:42 PM »
I haven't really ever given much thought to try and logically prove that God lives.

I have however come to know that God truly is real.  I know that God is my Heavenly Father and I am His son.

How do I know this?

Through a basic principle called faith.

"...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

I have read the word of God and had a desire to know if they were true.  That desire took me to have faith by praying to know.  Many times I have prayed for confirmations concerning God, Jesus Christ, and commandments and I have received witnesses by the Holy Ghost.

These witnesses that have helped me know that God is real, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, and that we are God's children are more real to me than if God had, with an audible voice, spoke to me.

I know God is real and He is my father.  Not because of logic but because I have exercised faith.

I actually like this.  I prefer it when Christians just say that there is no logic or reasoning behind their beliefs--that their beliefs are based on faith and nothing else.  Because then it just becomes a matter of saying, "Oh okay, that's cool.  I like pizza but not green beans."  It is when Christians try to use "rationality" and "reason" that they really trip themselves up because, as we know, there is no rationality in faith. 

Christians--stop trying to make sense of it all!  Believe, if you must, but don't try to argue about it!  You are doomed to fail if you do.  It was when Christians started to try to "prove" their beliefs that secularism really started to flourish.

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #150 on: March 17, 2012, 06:33:07 PM »
I have a masters degree in physics. I have  been an athiest for all my life. I have recently turned to christianity. I turned to it because I needed answers to aspect of my life. I needed a better life. I have always respected religion even as an athiest. I have always believed that people have the right to believe in what they want. a friend invited me to his church. These people were the kindest people ever. The preacher was good at making the bible revelant to the world of today, very inspirational.  These christians take their faith seriously. They live good lives and are not hypocrites. Seems like they teach love, integrity, strength. They help each other our. Many people lack those qualities, even religious people but not the congregation I witnessed. The world is cruel. I decided to join them. The whole notion of god and prayer in still odd to me but the idea of living like jesus seems like the way to be happy. Prayer feels refreshing, a way to clear the mind. The christians I know have very high succesful marriage rates. People here have hit rock bottom and came to the top because of religion. Personally I think its the love, strength and convidence  that they learned that caused them to rise. I have turned to religion for a better life and so far it is working. Is it god? I may never know but the bible has touched me.

Offline HAL

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #151 on: March 17, 2012, 06:38:14 PM »
Welcome to the forum Dgj2301.

I have a masters degree in physics. I have  been an athiest for all my life. I have recently turned to christianity. I turned to it because I needed answers to aspect of my life.

Not to be too harsh right off the bat, but I personally don't believe you yet. I'd like to hear more before I would believe your story. I've been here a long time and stories like these are very suspicious to me.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #152 on: March 17, 2012, 06:41:10 PM »
Bm
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #153 on: March 17, 2012, 06:49:45 PM »
 I was going through hard time. I was weak. I needed ways of dealing wit my problems. the preacher was very inspirational so I started to read the bible. It helped me personally. the thought of a god is still a mystery and some things they believe seem preposterous. But the messages that I understood and believed is what helped me.

Why does it seem suspicious? I would like to hear why.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #154 on: March 17, 2012, 06:51:43 PM »
It's like cafeteria!
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline HAL

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2012, 06:56:00 PM »
Again, not trying to be harsh,

... the thought of a god is still a mystery and some things they believe seem preposterous. But the messages that I understood and believed is what helped me.

Why does it seem suspicious? I would like to hear why.

You claim you have a masters in physics, right? You must be a logical and rational thinker to have achieved that. You need evidence of things. You test a hypothesis. You use the empiricism. Yet you abandon all that for an unproven set of myths just to have a good feeling?

That's hard for me to swallow. Very hard.

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2012, 07:07:03 PM »
Yes, I do need evidence. I am not saying I belive in god. I am a person of logic. You make good arguement and I just realized that I posted in a thread irrelevant to the message I have tried to give. but the lifestyle jesus wants to people to live, in my opinion seems like a good way. he may have not been a god but he has made an impact. he was probably just a genius, an einstein of his past and people were probaby dumb as ever back then. the christians I know from the church I go to, most have careers in science.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2012, 07:31:04 PM »
Yes, I do need evidence. I am not saying I belive in god. I am a person of logic. You make good arguement and I just realized that I posted in a thread irrelevant to the message I have tried to give. but the lifestyle jesus wants to people to live, in my opinion seems like a good way. he may have not been a god but he has made an impact. he was probably just a genius, an einstein of his past and people were probaby dumb as ever back then. the christians I know from the church I go to, most have careers in science.

Can you give us the exact lifestyle that Jesus wants people to live?  Not what the people at the church told you that Jesus wants from you, but exactly what Jesus wants you to do.
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline HAL

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #158 on: March 17, 2012, 07:31:40 PM »
Yes, I do need evidence. I am not saying I belive in god. I am a person of logic. You make good arguement and I just realized that I posted in a thread irrelevant to the message I have tried to give. but the lifestyle jesus wants to people to live, in my opinion seems like a good way. he may have not been a god but he has made an impact. he was probably just a genius, an einstein of his past and people were probaby dumb as ever back then.

OK, so you like this person's morals, the guy called "Jesus". Use them then. You don't have to believe in gods to use a morality that suits you.

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the christians I know from the church I go to, most have careers in science.

Most have careers in science? So? That means nothing as far as their beliefs in gods goes. Either what they believe can be verified or it can't. Their career choices don't make their beliefs correct. You should know that. That's why I don't trust your claim that you are educated in physics. C'mon, what's going on here?

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #159 on: March 17, 2012, 08:03:15 PM »
Yes, I do need evidence. I am not saying I belive in god. I am a person of logic. You make good arguement and I just realized that I posted in a thread irrelevant to the message I have tried to give. but the lifestyle jesus wants to people to live, in my opinion seems like a good way. he may have not been a god but he has made an impact. he was probably just a genius, an einstein of his past and people were probaby dumb as ever back then. the christians I know from the church I go to, most have careers in science.

Can you give us the exact lifestyle that Jesus wants people to live?  Not what the people at the church told you that Jesus wants from you, but exactly what Jesus wants you to do.

My opinion is that he wants us to live a life with high self-esteem, high integrity. I believe his messages tell us to be strong and not let things get in our way. Those are the ones that are important to me. I think there are a lot of good metaphors and parables. I know you don't need a Bible to learn those thing but I think the bible along with the friendship of others with the same belief can help keep you in check. Sometimes we do lose ourselves. I was told that I am barely scratching the surface with jesus.

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #160 on: March 17, 2012, 08:15:05 PM »
Yes, I do need evidence. I am not saying I belive in god. I am a person of logic. You make good arguement and I just realized that I posted in a thread irrelevant to the message I have tried to give. but the lifestyle jesus wants to people to live, in my opinion seems like a good way. he may have not been a god but he has made an impact. he was probably just a genius, an einstein of his past and people were probaby dumb as ever back then.

OK, so you like this person's morals, the guy called "Jesus". Use them then. You don't have to believe in gods to use a morality that suits you.

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the christians I know from the church I go to, most have careers in science.

Most have careers in science? So? That means nothing as far as their beliefs in gods goes. Either what they believe can be verified or it can't. Their career choices don't make their beliefs correct. You should know that. That's why I don't trust your claim that you are educated in physics. C'mon, what's going on here?

You are right, I don't have to believe in god to believe in his morals. That was my intention in the beginning, to learn the morals and gain knowledge. I agree with a lot of it. Faith, imagination is the argument for their belief in god.  I guess, I am trying to force myself to believe in god, to become a Christian. My girlfriend, a girl I want to eventually marry is getting baptized. I can become a Christian and live like them but one of the requirements is to believe in god and I do not want to be a hypocrite yet I don't want to gullible.

Offline kin hell

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #161 on: March 17, 2012, 09:25:21 PM »
Yes, I do need evidence. I am not saying I belive in god. I am a person of logic. You make good arguement and I just realized that I posted in a thread irrelevant to the message I have tried to give. but the lifestyle jesus wants to people to live, in my opinion seems like a good way. he may have not been a god but he has made an impact. he was probably just a genius, an einstein of his past and people were probaby dumb as ever back then.

OK, so you like this person's morals, the guy called "Jesus". Use them then. You don't have to believe in gods to use a morality that suits you.

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the christians I know from the church I go to, most have careers in science.

Most have careers in science? So? That means nothing as far as their beliefs in gods goes. Either what they believe can be verified or it can't. Their career choices don't make their beliefs correct. You should know that. That's why I don't trust your claim that you are educated in physics. C'mon, what's going on here?

You are right, I don't have to believe in god to believe in his morals.

I suspect you didn't mean that comment to imply "god's" morals are real, as in human morality as handed down by god.
You don't have to believe in god to have morals, as I'm sure your prior atheist life is evidence enough...


 
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That was my intention in the beginning, to learn the morals and gain knowledge.

You are faintly condemning everyone outside of xianity to a inferred lack of morals, and you certainly only gain knowledge of the xian myth and its effect in the world by learning about xianity. There is little other knowledge to gain as the secular-like search for knowledge is somewhat frowned upon when faith is the only allowed tool.


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I agree with a lot of it.
Yes but I guarantee you the morality with which you feel sympatico is not xianity's alone, it is a prevalent humanist philosophy that xianity has adopted from what came before.
It has nothing to do with gods.



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Faith, imagination is the argument for their belief in god.

No mate, that is their requirement for belief in god. So far they've offered no compelling arguement or evidence at all.
Again you cannot say their good behaviour is evidence of god as it is countered by the good behaviour of atheists which obviously requires no gods.


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I guess, I am trying to force myself to believe in god, to become a Christian.

.....good luck  ;)  Do you think you could force yourself to believe in the hindu pantheon?
Absence of intellectual honesty is the only way you'll ever believe the myth, and no doubt you'll be always subject to cognititive dissonance every day of your life.



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My girlfriend, a girl I want to eventually marry is getting baptized.
So now the real motive appears  ;)


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I can become a Christian and live like them but one of the requirements is to believe in god and I do not want to be a hypocrite
....well you could have a lobotomy, ;) otherwise how are you going to believe in something that just isn't true, and you know isn't true?


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yet I don't want to gullible.

....well there goes any shot you might have of truly believing.
I don't know what to suggest bloke. It sounds very much as though you are in a classic quandary where the girl of your dreams is getting baptised, and you must be complicit in  her delusion to remain with her.

That's tough. I really cannot say more than I cannot imagine living a lie (ie displaying a false belief in god) is a good basis for a marriage, but that is only my opinion.

good luck mate, I watch with humanist empathy.   

There is no bloody god.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 09:26:59 PM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #162 on: March 17, 2012, 09:50:55 PM »
My opinion is that he wants us to live a life with high self-esteem, high integrity. I believe his messages tell us to be strong and not let things get in our way. Those are the ones that are important to me. I think there are a lot of good metaphors and parables. I know you don't need a Bible to learn those thing but I think the bible along with the friendship of others with the same belief can help keep you in check. Sometimes we do lose ourselves. I was told that I am barely scratching the surface with jesus.

A few things...

Yes, you are probably just scratching the surface with Jesus.  You don't get to the bottom of it until you're an atheist.  When you are a fully invested believer, you're in the middle of it, not the bottom. 

Friendship is good, but you don't need to join a religious cult in order to get them (and yes, they're all cults).  The friendship thing is just how they lure you in.  At the heart of it, however, organized religion is more into exclusion than inclusion.  Sure, once you're in, you're in the 'good guy' club; but with regard to others who don't share the same views, religious belief can be a good catalyst for shunning them.  Don't get me wrong here... being part of the 'good guy' club can feel great, and it might be just what you need to make your life better, but at the heart of it all, sits a big, fat, bloated lie.  Maybe it would be better to join a chess club, or a book club or something, don't you think? 

In what part of the bible did you find Jesus speaking about living with high self esteem and integrity?  I'd like to read some of the passages you found that led you to believe that. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #163 on: March 18, 2012, 02:09:42 AM »
Yes, I do need evidence. I am not saying I belive in god. I am a person of logic. You make good arguement and I just realized that I posted in a thread irrelevant to the message I have tried to give. but the lifestyle jesus wants to people to live, in my opinion seems like a good way. he may have not been a god but he has made an impact. he was probably just a genius, an einstein of his past and people were probaby dumb as ever back then.

OK, so you like this person's morals, the guy called "Jesus". Use them then. You don't have to believe in gods to use a morality that suits you.

Quote
the christians I know from the church I go to, most have careers in science.

Most have careers in science? So? That means nothing as far as their beliefs in gods goes. Either what they believe can be verified or it can't. Their career choices don't make their beliefs correct. You should know that. That's why I don't trust your claim that you are educated in physics. C'mon, what's going on here?

You are right, I don't have to believe in god to believe in his morals.

I suspect you didn't mean that comment to imply "god's" morals are real, as in human morality as handed down by god.
You don't have to believe in god to have morals, as I'm sure your prior atheist life is evidence enough...


 
Quote
That was my intention in the beginning, to learn the morals and gain knowledge.

You are faintly condemning everyone outside of xianity to a inferred lack of morals, and you certainly only gain knowledge of the xian myth and its effect in the world by learning about xianity. There is little other knowledge to gain as the secular-like search for knowledge is somewhat frowned upon when faith is the only allowed tool.


Quote
I agree with a lot of it.
Yes but I guarantee you the morality with which you feel sympatico is not xianity's alone, it is a prevalent humanist philosophy that xianity has adopted from what came before.
It has nothing to do with gods.



Quote
Faith, imagination is the argument for their belief in god.

No mate, that is their requirement for belief in god. So far they've offered no compelling arguement or evidence at all.
Again you cannot say their good behaviour is evidence of god as it is countered by the good behaviour of atheists which obviously requires no gods.


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I guess, I am trying to force myself to believe in god, to become a Christian.

.....good luck  ;)  Do you think you could force yourself to believe in the hindu pantheon?
Absence of intellectual honesty is the only way you'll ever believe the myth, and no doubt you'll be always subject to cognititive dissonance every day of your life.



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My girlfriend, a girl I want to eventually marry is getting baptized.
So now the real motive appears  ;)


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I can become a Christian and live like them but one of the requirements is to believe in god and I do not want to be a hypocrite
....well you could have a lobotomy, ;) otherwise how are you going to believe in something that just isn't true, and you know isn't true?


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yet I don't want to gullible.

....well there goes any shot you might have of truly believing.
I don't know what to suggest bloke. It sounds very much as though you are in a classic quandary where the girl of your dreams is getting baptised, and you must be complicit in  her delusion to remain with her.

That's tough. I really cannot say more than I cannot imagine living a lie (ie displaying a false belief in god) is a good basis for a marriage, but that is only my opinion.

good luck mate, I watch with humanist empathy.   

There is no bloody god.

You make good points. I really don't have anything to debate on here.

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #164 on: March 18, 2012, 02:49:56 AM »
My opinion is that he wants us to live a life with high self-esteem, high integrity. I believe his messages tell us to be strong and not let things get in our way. Those are the ones that are important to me. I think there are a lot of good metaphors and parables. I know you don't need a Bible to learn those thing but I think the bible along with the friendship of others with the same belief can help keep you in check. Sometimes we do lose ourselves. I was told that I am barely scratching the surface with jesus.

A few things...

Yes, you are probably just scratching the surface with Jesus.  You don't get to the bottom of it until you're an atheist.  When you are a fully invested believer, you're in the middle of it, not the bottom. 

Friendship is good, but you don't need to join a religious cult in order to get them (and yes, they're all cults).  The friendship thing is just how they lure you in.  At the heart of it, however, organized religion is more into exclusion than inclusion.  Sure, once you're in, you're in the 'good guy' club; but with regard to others who don't share the same views, religious belief can be a good catalyst for shunning them.  Don't get me wrong here... being part of the 'good guy' club can feel great, and it might be just what you need to make your life better, but at the heart of it all, sits a big, fat, bloated lie.  Maybe it would be better to join a chess club, or a book club or something, don't you think? 

In what part of the bible did you find Jesus speaking about living with high self esteem and integrity?  I'd like to read some of the passages you found that led you to believe that.

I really appreciate your comments and you are pretty much accurate. One thing is, I have many friends. Different groups but I don't connect many of them  i would say that i connect more with my family but unfortunately,  its full of drama. I have been hanging out with these Christians for over 2 before I decided to study the bible. They were all good friends of mine, always inviting me out. Always welcoming me with a hug.  Everybody knows each other unlike 99% of churches i have been to. they don't seem like they were discriminating. I think their heart in the right place.  I have friends in that church I knew since elementary school. They recently got baptized and nothing has really changed. Only thing that has changed is we don't go out getting drunk, sleeping with every female.

Jesus teaches about integrity and high self-esteem pretty much every where.

Not that I am saying it works 100% of the time, but what is the best way that you can think of to teach morals and values to a high populated and rebellious civilization.

Offline HAL

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #165 on: March 18, 2012, 07:47:26 AM »
I have been hanging out with these Christians for over 2 before I decided to study the bible. They were all good friends of mine, always inviting me out. Always welcoming me with a hug.  Everybody knows each other unlike 99% of churches i have been to. they don't seem like they were discriminating. I think their heart in the right place. 

OK they're nice people - we get that. Their heart is in the right place, uh-huh. What about their minds? Are you being skeptical in front of them? Are you challenging their claims of the supernatural? Are you asking for verification of miracles and the like? It sounds like to me, well, you are just being indoctrinated into a group that believes in things that have no good evidence. If you were challenging their claims I doubt they'd be so accepting of you. If you aren't using your scientific training in this regard, well, all I have to say is, shame on you.

Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #166 on: March 18, 2012, 08:01:53 AM »
If someone challenged an atheists beliefs of god, the supernatural, giant space mutants, etc they may respond in a good or bad way, just like a theist might. An atheist may call you deluded if you believe that god is real, a theist may try to convert you to one of their own if you are an atheist. People should consider all the possibilities of what is real and what is not as long as they make sense. We could be descendants of sponges for all we know, unless we have a time machine that can take us back to before the earth was created, how will we ever know if even the big bang made it and the rest of the things in the universe? Human technology is good, but it does not tell us all the answers we still do not know.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #167 on: March 18, 2012, 09:26:56 AM »
If someone challenged an atheists beliefs of god, the supernatural, giant space mutants, etc they may respond in a good or bad way, just like a theist might. An atheist may call you deluded if you believe that god is real, a theist may try to convert you to one of their own if you are an atheist. People should consider all the possibilities of what is real and what is not as long as they make sense. We could be descendants of sponges for all we know, unless we have a time machine that can take us back to before the earth was created, how will we ever know if even the big bang made it and the rest of the things in the universe? Human technology is good, but it does not tell us all the answers we still do not know.

This is a fair statement, but if one's primary criteria for determining the possibility that something is real is that it make sense then xianity, god, and the bible simply do not make the cut. There are answers we do not and may never know, but it is shallow and shortsighted to have to fill that desire for answers with anything for which no tangible evidence has ever existed. And it is heinous to seek to impose such a shallow worldview upon others.
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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #168 on: March 18, 2012, 09:31:48 AM »
If someone challenged an atheists beliefs of god, the supernatural, giant space mutants, etc they may respond in a good or bad way, just like a theist might. An atheist may call you deluded if you believe that god is real, a theist may try to convert you to one of their own if you are an atheist. People should consider all the possibilities of what is real and what is not as long as they make sense. We could be descendants of sponges for all we know, unless we have a time machine that can take us back to before the earth was created, how will we ever know if even the big bang made it and the rest of the things in the universe? Human technology is good, but it does not tell us all the answers we still do not know.

This is a fair statement, but if one's primary criteria for determining the possibility that something is real is that it make sense then xianity, god, and the bible simply do not make the cut. There are answers we do not and may never know, but it is shallow and shortsighted to have to fill that desire for answers with anything for which no tangible evidence has ever existed. And it is heinous to seek to impose such a shallow worldview upon others.

That is all true, but Christians are always going to be on this planet, how will people make them see reality? Religious wars are always going to exist until someone gets rid of all believers of a god.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #169 on: March 18, 2012, 09:50:52 AM »
I have been hanging out with these Christians for over 2 before I decided to study the bible. They were all good friends of mine, always inviting me out. Always welcoming me with a hug.  Everybody knows each other unlike 99% of churches i have been to.

Let me ask you something.  If you wanted to create your own religion, how would you treat other people if you wanted them to join it?  You would do exactly what those people are doing.  It's a fantastic way to lure you in. 

they don't seem like they were discriminating.

The people that don't take their religion seriously, probably won't discriminate much.  But you said these people take their religion seriously.  In order to do that, they HAVE to discriminate.  Discrimination against many different groups has roots in the bible.  Jews, atheists, pagans, 'witches', homosexuals, etc. 

I think their heart in the right place.  I have friends in that church I knew since elementary school. They recently got baptized and nothing has really changed.

I am sure they are, for the most part, great people.  And that's good.  But adopting a religion just because they are nice to you is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? 

Only thing that has changed is we don't go out getting drunk, sleeping with every female.

They grew up, you mean. 

Jesus teaches about integrity and high self-esteem pretty much every where.

Please list any passages from the bible that you may feel backs up this statement.  I am interested in reading them, because I have read the bible, and I do not recall a single thing in praise of self esteem.  I actually think it is more of the opposite, where you are supposed to think of yourself as the lowest of the low, created from the dirt, and requiring a salvation in the form of Jesus' self sacrifice, without which you would be undeserving of a place in heaven when you die.  'Everywhere' is a bit of an over generalization I think.

Not that I am saying it works 100% of the time, but what is the best way that you can think of to teach morals and values to a high populated and rebellious civilization.

Good parenting and role modeling is better at teaching moral values than fear of reprisal by an invisible sky wizard.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #170 on: March 18, 2012, 11:23:18 AM »
I have been hanging out with these Christians for over 2 before I decided to study the bible. They were all good friends of mine, always inviting me out. Always welcoming me with a hug.  Everybody knows each other unlike 99% of churches i have been to.

Let me ask you something.  If you wanted to create your own religion, how would you treat other people if you wanted them to join it?  You would do exactly what those people are doing.  It's a fantastic way to lure you in. 

they don't seem like they were discriminating.

The people that don't take their religion seriously, probably won't discriminate much.  But you said these people take their religion seriously.  In order to do that, they HAVE to discriminate.  Discrimination against many different groups has roots in the bible.  Jews, atheists, pagans, 'witches', homosexuals, etc. 

I think their heart in the right place.  I have friends in that church I knew since elementary school. They recently got baptized and nothing has really changed.

I am sure they are, for the most part, great people.  And that's good.  But adopting a religion just because they are nice to you is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? 

Only thing that has changed is we don't go out getting drunk, sleeping with every female.

They grew up, you mean. 

Jesus teaches about integrity and high self-esteem pretty much every where.

Please list any passages from the bible that you may feel backs up this statement.  I am interested in reading them, because I have read the bible, and I do not recall a single thing in praise of self esteem.  I actually think it is more of the opposite, where you are supposed to think of yourself as the lowest of the low, created from the dirt, and requiring a salvation in the form of Jesus' self sacrifice, without which you would be undeserving of a place in heaven when you die.  'Everywhere' is a bit of an over generalization I think.

Not that I am saying it works 100% of the time, but what is the best way that you can think of to teach morals and values to a high populated and rebellious civilization.

Good parenting and role modeling is better at teaching moral values than fear of reprisal by an invisible sky wizard.

Believe me, these group of people do take their religion seriously. I'm just talking about this specific church. I know many Christians that just feel they need religion to make their bad life seem like its OK. Maybe I just like those people rather than their religion. But I have always challenged them. It really goes no where. I challenged them about a soul and I told them I wanted proof and they said that you just half to believe and I told them it won't be that easy. I have told that that the whole ideal of heaven and hell seems ridiculous.

Maybe I am not taking it seriously because go over the bible and they write notes for me. I'll look over their notes and look for the passages.

And good parenting don't always create good morals. My parents never thought me good morals. I was always alone. I picked them up one my own.

Anything I didn't reply to is because I agree with the rest of what you said.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #171 on: March 18, 2012, 12:28:17 PM »
I have a friend who got married to a christian fundy. When they were dating, he went through the motions with her a lot, went to church, let it go when she told him him his parents were going to hell...etc.

Anyway, soon after they got married, he stopped going to church. He had had enough, and as a rational person, he just could not do it anymore. Anyway, she was married to him at that point and they persist to this day.

So, you have a bright light at the end of the tunnel, young man. You can marry that girl you are hot for, then, if you change your mind about all that religious bullshit, she'll stick with you. Maybe.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Dgj2301

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #172 on: March 18, 2012, 12:42:34 PM »
I have a friend who got married to a christian fundy. When they were dating, he went through the motions with her a lot, went to church, let it go when she told him him his parents were going to hell...etc.

Anyway, soon after they got married, he stopped going to church. He had had enough, and as a rational person, he just could not do it anymore. Anyway, she was married to him at that point and they persist to this day.

So, you have a bright light at the end of the tunnel, young man. You can marry that girl you are hot for, then, if you change your mind about all that religious bullshit, she'll stick with you. Maybe.

Thank you. I have dated so many women and they were the most pathetic, insecure, and unloyal people I have ever met. This girl, unfortunately has her issues but I have never cared about anybody as much as her. I am not perfect either and she has continued to stick by my side. She told me that she gave in to religion because she did it for me and wanted resolve her issues so we can move forward. I know I shouldn't deal with a girl with issue from the beginning but I see she has come a long way since she has become religious and I decided to stick by her because of her continuous effort. Not to be big headed but I can have almost any girl I want, in any way I want but I decided to choose her. I want to sacrifice something for her. Even if it is my atheism. But my stubborn personality makes it difficult

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #173 on: March 18, 2012, 01:09:41 PM »
Dgj2301

A little info from an old guy.

Everything you do until you're well into your 40's will involve glands, pheromones, self-esteem and crap. You won't know the last part until you're over 50 and you start looking back and kicking yourself for all the dumb things you did while trying to fulfill your evolutionary role as a semen provider.

There is no advice I can give to prevent this behavior. But maybe, now that you know what is happening, you can occasionally catch yourself in the act and ask "WTF am I doing?"

Think about two things. Integrity and grace. Because those are the two things you'll wish you had at this time in your life when you get to be my age.

A atheist friend of mine married a fundy back in the 70's, and he's still married to her. All it cost him was close to 40 years of going to church at least twice every week and helping raise a beautiful but equally fundy daughter. So it can be done. But she'd better be something special, or a year form now you'll be wanting out.

I last saw my friend about three years ago, and in private asked him about religion. He said he's still an atheist, he just lies about it. I couldn't do that. Live a lie with someone I love. And I couldn't love someone who wanted to change me that much.

You know what they say. "A man marries a woman hoping she never changes. A woman marries a man looking to change him".

And they call marriage a victimless crime.  ;D



Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.