Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 57458 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1276 on: July 28, 2014, 04:19:57 PM »
So are you positing, with no evidence, of course, that it is possible to have a universe where there is no Catholic god? Where, for example, Allah made the world and Islam is the correct religion?

I hope you realize where this leads......

How do you know that we are not living in that universe right now? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1277 on: July 28, 2014, 04:45:15 PM »
So are you positing, with no evidence, of course, that it is possible to have a universe where there is no Catholic god? Where, for example, Allah made the world and Islam is the correct religion?

I hope you realize where this leads......

How do you know that we are not living in that universe right now? :?

precisely the point.  if an infinite amount of universes exist, then every possible configuration has to manifest itself.
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1278 on: July 28, 2014, 04:51:20 PM »
So are you positing, with no evidence, of course, that it is possible to have a universe where there is no Catholic god? Where, for example, Allah made the world and Islam is the correct religion?

I hope you realize where this leads......

How do you know that we are not living in that universe right now? :?

precisely the point.  if an infinite amount of universes exist, then every possible configuration has to manifest itself.

You forgot "an infinite amount of times" in your last sentence. The number of possible configurations, while absurdly huge, is still finite. That means that, according to Lukvance, there are infinite Allahs, infinite YHWHs, infinite Zeuses, and so on.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online Defiance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1279 on: July 28, 2014, 04:54:47 PM »
Fine then. If an infinite amount of possiblities exist...

Then there is a universe where god exists and doesn't exist at the same time. People exist and not exist at the same time. Air exists and doesnt exist at the same time. The universe exists and doesn't at the same time.

After all, infinite possiblities.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1280 on: July 28, 2014, 05:17:34 PM »
So are you positing, with no evidence, of course, that it is possible to have a universe where there is no Catholic god? Where, for example, Allah made the world and Islam is the correct religion?

I hope you realize where this leads......

How do you know that we are not living in that universe right now? :?

precisely the point.  if an infinite amount of universes exist, then every possible configuration has to manifest itself.

You forgot "an infinite amount of times" in your last sentence. The number of possible configurations, while absurdly huge, is still finite. That means that, according to Lukvance, there are infinite Allahs, infinite YHWHs, infinite Zeuses, and so on.

It also means that there is an infinitely large chance that whatever god we worship is the wrong one for our universe. We have an infinitely small chance of guessing the right god to worship, since we still don't have any evidence as to which god is running the universe we happen to be in. The signs we think are pointing to Brahma are the exact same signs that someone else sees as surefire proof of Allah, or Jehovah or Zeus. 

If anyone actually believes in this, they would have to be arrogant in the extreme to think that they somehow happen to have chosen the correct god for their universe. They would have to be very selective in what they consider to be evidence, because they would have to rule out the possibility that they are infinitely wrong. They would have to be--

Lukvance!  There you are, we were just talking about you, buddy..... ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1281 on: July 28, 2014, 05:45:59 PM »
So are you positing, with no evidence, of course, that it is possible to have a universe where there is no Catholic god? Where, for example, Allah made the world and Islam is the correct religion?

I hope you realize where this leads......

How do you know that we are not living in that universe right now? :?

precisely the point.  if an infinite amount of universes exist, then every possible configuration has to manifest itself.

You forgot "an infinite amount of times" in your last sentence. The number of possible configurations, while absurdly huge, is still finite. That means that, according to Lukvance, there are infinite Allahs, infinite YHWHs, infinite Zeuses, and so on.

It also means that there is an infinitely large chance that whatever god we worship is the wrong one for our universe. We have an infinitely small chance of guessing the right god to worship, since we still don't have any evidence as to which god is running the universe we happen to be in. The signs we think are pointing to Brahma are the exact same signs that someone else sees as surefire proof of Allah, or Jehovah or Zeus. 

If anyone actually believes in this, they would have to be arrogant in the extreme to think that they somehow happen to have chosen the correct god for their universe. They would have to be very selective in what they consider to be evidence, because they would have to rule out the possibility that they are infinitely wrong. They would have to be--

Lukvance!  There you are, we were just talking about you, buddy..... ;D
Even if we worship the wrong God, that would mean that God exist. (meaning the subject is close)
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1282 on: July 28, 2014, 05:49:19 PM »
Even if we worship the wrong God, that would mean that God exist. (meaning the subject is close)

I take it you're not capable of comprehending satire.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1283 on: July 28, 2014, 06:01:28 PM »
Even if we worship the wrong God, that would mean that God exist. (meaning the subject is close)

I take it you're not capable of comprehending satire.

Due to your smite, I take it you're also not capable of comprehending satire as a tool to make a point.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1284 on: July 28, 2014, 06:14:56 PM »
So are you positing, with no evidence, of course, that it is possible to have a universe where there is no Catholic god? Where, for example, Allah made the world and Islam is the correct religion?

I hope you realize where this leads......

How do you know that we are not living in that universe right now? :?

precisely the point.  if an infinite amount of universes exist, then every possible configuration has to manifest itself.

You forgot "an infinite amount of times" in your last sentence. The number of possible configurations, while absurdly huge, is still finite. That means that, according to Lukvance, there are infinite Allahs, infinite YHWHs, infinite Zeuses, and so on.

It also means that there is an infinitely large chance that whatever god we worship is the wrong one for our universe. We have an infinitely small chance of guessing the right god to worship, since we still don't have any evidence as to which god is running the universe we happen to be in. The signs we think are pointing to Brahma are the exact same signs that someone else sees as surefire proof of Allah, or Jehovah or Zeus. 

If anyone actually believes in this, they would have to be arrogant in the extreme to think that they somehow happen to have chosen the correct god for their universe. They would have to be very selective in what they consider to be evidence, because they would have to rule out the possibility that they are infinitely wrong. They would have to be--

Lukvance!  There you are, we were just talking about you, buddy..... ;D
Even if we worship the wrong God, that would mean that God exist. (meaning the subject is close)
So it does not matter what god you worship as long as you pick one? You all already know which one I pick!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Defiance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1285 on: July 28, 2014, 06:32:33 PM »
So are you positing, with no evidence, of course, that it is possible to have a universe where there is no Catholic god? Where, for example, Allah made the world and Islam is the correct religion?

I hope you realize where this leads......

How do you know that we are not living in that universe right now? :?

precisely the point.  if an infinite amount of universes exist, then every possible configuration has to manifest itself.

You forgot "an infinite amount of times" in your last sentence. The number of possible configurations, while absurdly huge, is still finite. That means that, according to Lukvance, there are infinite Allahs, infinite YHWHs, infinite Zeuses, and so on.

It also means that there is an infinitely large chance that whatever god we worship is the wrong one for our universe. We have an infinitely small chance of guessing the right god to worship, since we still don't have any evidence as to which god is running the universe we happen to be in. The signs we think are pointing to Brahma are the exact same signs that someone else sees as surefire proof of Allah, or Jehovah or Zeus. 

If anyone actually believes in this, they would have to be arrogant in the extreme to think that they somehow happen to have chosen the correct god for their universe. They would have to be very selective in what they consider to be evidence, because they would have to rule out the possibility that they are infinitely wrong. They would have to be--

Lukvance!  There you are, we were just talking about you, buddy..... ;D
Even if we worship the wrong God, that would mean that God exist. (meaning the subject is close)
So it does not matter what god you worship as long as you pick one? You all already know which one I pick!

Obviously the loving god Yahweh.

I'd rather stick with Athena, the goddess of wisdom and knowledge.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1286 on: July 28, 2014, 08:38:10 PM »
Not Yahweh--sounds like a baby crying.
Thor, baby! Thor!
Or Durga.

A Thor-Durga combo religion would kick a$$.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1287 on: July 29, 2014, 02:41:31 AM »
i think you have to look at it like this.  if there is such a thing as "infinity"... say the multiverse theory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) in which there could be an infinite amount of universes... then a universe created by the judeo christian god yahweh has to exist.  as well as a universe where some people believe it was created by yahweh, but it was not, etc etc... add infinitum

This isn't how infinity works. Things of infinity are still bound by possibility. If god is impossible, then even if there are an infinite amount of universes, a god wouldn't have created any of them.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1288 on: July 29, 2014, 08:36:42 AM »
i think you have to look at it like this.  if there is such a thing as "infinity"... say the multiverse theory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) in which there could be an infinite amount of universes... then a universe created by the judeo christian god yahweh has to exist.  as well as a universe where some people believe it was created by yahweh, but it was not, etc etc... add infinitum

This isn't how infinity works. Things of infinity are still bound by possibility. If god is impossible, then even if there are an infinite amount of universes, a god wouldn't have created any of them.

Of course... so then the question shifts from "the probability of god's existence" to "is it possible for god to exist at all?"...
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1289 on: July 29, 2014, 08:44:51 AM »
i think you have to look at it like this.  if there is such a thing as "infinity"... say the multiverse theory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) in which there could be an infinite amount of universes... then a universe created by the judeo christian god yahweh has to exist.  as well as a universe where some people believe it was created by yahweh, but it was not, etc etc... add infinitum

This isn't how infinity works. Things of infinity are still bound by possibility. If god is impossible, then even if there are an infinite amount of universes, a god wouldn't have created any of them.

Of course... so then the question shifts from "the probability of god's existence" to "is it possible for god to exist at all?"...

Well I've yet to come across a version of a god that doesn't throw up some contradiction or other. So, on that provisional basis, the answer is "no".
If you keep on living your life as though your purpose is to be saved and go to heaven, you are missing the heaven that you are living in right now.

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1290 on: July 29, 2014, 08:58:55 AM »
i think you have to look at it like this.  if there is such a thing as "infinity"... say the multiverse theory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) in which there could be an infinite amount of universes... then a universe created by the judeo christian god yahweh has to exist.  as well as a universe where some people believe it was created by yahweh, but it was not, etc etc... add infinitum

This isn't how infinity works. Things of infinity are still bound by possibility. If god is impossible, then even if there are an infinite amount of universes, a god wouldn't have created any of them.

Of course... so then the question shifts from "the probability of god's existence" to "is it possible for god to exist at all?"...

Well I've yet to come across a version of a god that doesn't throw up some contradiction or other. So, on that provisional basis, the answer is "no".

believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1291 on: July 29, 2014, 09:07:24 AM »
Quote
Well I've yet to come across a version of a god that doesn't throw up some contradiction or other. So, on that provisional basis, the answer is "no".

believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

....which is why I made it a provisional no.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1292 on: July 29, 2014, 09:17:49 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

Given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, I think all claims of gods come out of that ignorance. So I'll stick with "Nope, no gods." Were there clues from other sources that there might be a  god or two out there, I'd consider it. But every claim comes from people and mostly from old sources (scientology would be a new source), I'll casually dismiss them for the rest of my life unless someone can come up with some sort of undeniable verification. Which will not happen. Luk's confidence and Skep's bloody walls are totally inadequate as proof.

Now, might there be highly evolve civilizations that overcame ignorance, self-destruction, natural destruction, etc, running around out there with capabilities so far beyond our own that we would see them as gods? That is indeed possible. But if they have any brains, they'll leave us alone. Right now we're the ebola of life forms, and we should be quarantined. At the very least.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1293 on: July 29, 2014, 10:02:23 AM »
i think you have to look at it like this.  if there is such a thing as "infinity"... say the multiverse theory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) in which there could be an infinite amount of universes... then a universe created by the judeo christian god yahweh has to exist.  as well as a universe where some people believe it was created by yahweh, but it was not, etc etc... add infinitum

You missed the whole point. Yahweh is fiction which people invented. We know from his own book that Yahweh is a fiction. Science does not have to be used to disprove Yahweh. A fiction does not create universes no matter how many there are.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1294 on: July 29, 2014, 10:02:44 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

why a maybe?  God (capital G) is just an evolution of gods (little g), which are just evolutions of spirits which were just invisible people.  Our primitive grandfathers thought the world functioned by invisible people doing things.  As that bullshit idea was slowly shown to be wrong, the idea of the invisible people adapted.  Given that, God (capital G) is the abstraction of and invisible, powerful guy.  Why does that merit a "solid maybe"?
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1295 on: July 29, 2014, 10:08:03 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

I'll casually dismiss them for the rest of my life unless someone can come up with some sort of undeniable verification.

there are many things we believe which lack "undeniable verification"... we take each other's consciousness on faith because we must, there is no test of its existence.  however, i believe that everyone has an inner life or sense of self, but i cannot produce "undeniable verification" of this.  so, believe what you will, that is if you believe you have the choice to believe.

i think someone once said something to the effect of... acknowledging your own ignorance is the beginning of wisdom... something like that...?
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1296 on: July 29, 2014, 10:14:25 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

why a maybe?

It's the surrender to this privileged pretence that religion can still have over people, even of an atheist/agnostic persuasion - that we can't say that there is no god, but we should just hold out on the maybe. I say a surrender to this because if we did this for everything, the word "no" would become redundant and replaced in all cases with "maybe". Can humans shit gold bars? Maybe. Do pigs fly? Maybe. Does rocking horse shit smell nice? Maybe.

That's the thing, you wouldn't use "maybe" to answer questions that have an obvious "no" answer, but for some reason when it comes to theistic claims, the fallibility card is played. Why bother? Stop pandering to this faux respect theology has stolen and just give it a flat out "NO" like you would with similar silly questions.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1297 on: July 29, 2014, 10:16:26 AM »
there are many things we believe which lack "undeniable verification"... we take each other's consciousness on faith because we must, there is no test of its existence.  however, i believe that everyone has an inner life or sense of self, but i cannot produce "undeniable verification" of this.  so, believe what you will, that is if you believe you have the choice to believe.

i think someone once said something to the effect of... acknowledging your own ignorance is the beginning of wisdom... something like that...?

Don't be stupid. Did you write all the words on this website just so that you could argue with yourself?
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1298 on: July 29, 2014, 10:17:08 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

why a maybe?  God (capital G) is just an evolution of gods (little g), which are just evolutions of spirits which were just invisible people.  Our primitive grandfathers thought the world functioned by invisible people doing things.  As that bullshit idea was slowly shown to be wrong, the idea of the invisible people adapted.  Given that, God (capital G) is the abstraction of and invisible, powerful guy.  Why does that merit a "solid maybe"?

it's a "maybe" because it's a mere possibility.  i'm not interested in mincing words, the question is now "is it possible for god to exist"... i say "maybe" because humanity doesn't posses the "knowledge" to say otherwise.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1299 on: July 29, 2014, 10:23:16 AM »
there are many things we believe which lack "undeniable verification"... we take each other's consciousness on faith because we must, there is no test of its existence.  however, i believe that everyone has an inner life or sense of self, but i cannot produce "undeniable verification" of this.  so, believe what you will, that is if you believe you have the choice to believe.

i think someone once said something to the effect of... acknowledging your own ignorance is the beginning of wisdom... something like that...?

Don't be stupid. Did you write all the words on this website just so that you could argue with yourself?

yes
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1300 on: July 29, 2014, 10:23:31 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

why a maybe?  God (capital G) is just an evolution of gods (little g), which are just evolutions of spirits which were just invisible people.  Our primitive grandfathers thought the world functioned by invisible people doing things.  As that bullshit idea was slowly shown to be wrong, the idea of the invisible people adapted.  Given that, God (capital G) is the abstraction of and invisible, powerful guy.  Why does that merit a "solid maybe"?

it's a "maybe" because it's a mere possibility.  i'm not interested in mincing words, the question is now "is it possible for god to exist"... i say "maybe" because humanity doesn't posses the "knowledge" to say otherwise.

But you don't do that with everything, do you? You accept as an axiom that your knowledge is and will only ever be provisional and work with what you have been provided with. As the saying goes, you can only piss with the dick you've got.

I have never been provided with a version of god that isn't contradictory, therefore god isn't possible based on that. I'm not arsed that maybe one day a version of god comes along that could turn me theist, because as of now I know that a god is impossible.
If you keep on living your life as though your purpose is to be saved and go to heaven, you are missing the heaven that you are living in right now.

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1301 on: July 29, 2014, 10:32:43 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

why a maybe?  God (capital G) is just an evolution of gods (little g), which are just evolutions of spirits which were just invisible people.  Our primitive grandfathers thought the world functioned by invisible people doing things.  As that bullshit idea was slowly shown to be wrong, the idea of the invisible people adapted.  Given that, God (capital G) is the abstraction of and invisible, powerful guy.  Why does that merit a "solid maybe"?

it's a "maybe" because it's a mere possibility.  i'm not interested in mincing words, the question is now "is it possible for god to exist"... i say "maybe" because humanity doesn't posses the "knowledge" to say otherwise.

But you don't do that with everything, do you? You accept as an axiom that your knowledge is and will only ever be provisional and work with what you have been provided with. As the saying goes, you can only piss with the dick you've got.

I have never been provided with a version of god that isn't contradictory, therefore god isn't possible based on that. I'm not arsed that maybe one day a version of god comes along that could turn me theist, because as of now I know that a god is impossible.

"based on that"... "as of now"... blah, blah, blah... goody.  again, believe what you will...
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1302 on: July 29, 2014, 10:36:28 AM »
there are many things we believe which lack "undeniable verification"... we take each other's consciousness on faith because we must, there is no test of its existence.  however, i believe that everyone has an inner life or sense of self, but i cannot produce "undeniable verification" of this.  so, believe what you will, that is if you believe you have the choice to believe.

i think someone once said something to the effect of... acknowledging your own ignorance is the beginning of wisdom... something like that...?

Don't be stupid. Did you write all the words on this website just so that you could argue with yourself?

yes

So now you think you are the god who controls the universe. That is why you think there might be god. It is you.

This is where confused thinking gets you.......
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1303 on: July 29, 2014, 10:42:57 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

why a maybe?  God (capital G) is just an evolution of gods (little g), which are just evolutions of spirits which were just invisible people.  Our primitive grandfathers thought the world functioned by invisible people doing things.  As that bullshit idea was slowly shown to be wrong, the idea of the invisible people adapted.  Given that, God (capital G) is the abstraction of and invisible, powerful guy.  Why does that merit a "solid maybe"?

it's a "maybe" because it's a mere possibility.  i'm not interested in mincing words, the question is now "is it possible for god to exist"... i say "maybe" because humanity doesn't posses the "knowledge" to say otherwise.

But you don't do that with everything, do you? You accept as an axiom that your knowledge is and will only ever be provisional and work with what you have been provided with. As the saying goes, you can only piss with the dick you've got.

I have never been provided with a version of god that isn't contradictory, therefore god isn't possible based on that. I'm not arsed that maybe one day a version of god comes along that could turn me theist, because as of now I know that a god is impossible.

"based on that"... "as of now"... blah, blah, blah... goody.  again, believe what you will...

I'm not having a pop at you, I'm only questioning your consistency. If I was to ask if it's possible to find a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, would you still answer with a "maybe"?
If you keep on living your life as though your purpose is to be saved and go to heaven, you are missing the heaven that you are living in right now.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1304 on: July 29, 2014, 10:45:45 AM »
believe what you will... for me, given humanities infantile knowledge and understanding of the universe and our existence, i'll give it a solid "maybe"...?

I give it a solid "no", with 100% certainty. Under my definition of "god", gods are impossible. Under others' definitions, gods are either impossible or irrelevant. If you can find one that doesn't fall in either of the latter two categories, feel free to present it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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