Poll

What is your religious position?

gnostic atheist - I know for certain that there are no gods.
163 (16.3%)
gnostic monotheist - I know for certain that only one specific god exists.
97 (9.7%)
gnostic polytheist - I know for certain that there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
gnostic pantheist - I know for certain that that everything is god.
12 (1.2%)
gnostic deist - I know for certain that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
6 (0.6%)
agnostic atheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there are no gods.
291 (29%)
agnostic monotheist - I do not know for certain, but I think only one specific god exists.
24 (2.4%)
agnostic polytheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
agnostic pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
25 (2.5%)
agnostic deist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
39 (3.9%)
ignostic atheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there are no gods.
90 (9%)
ignostic monotheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that only one specific god exists.
2 (0.2%)
ignostic polytheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is more than one god.
1 (0.1%)
ignostic pantheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that that everything is god.
10 (1%)
ignostic deist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic atheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there are no gods.
39 (3.9%)
apnostic monotheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess only one specific god exists.
1 (0.1%)
apnostic polytheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is more than one god.
0 (0%)
apnostic pantheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess that everything is god.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic deist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
8 (0.8%)
Any type of henotheist - There (may be/is only) more than one god, but I think of only one specific god.
7 (0.7%)
I am a god!  [checks self in mirror and grins]
83 (8.3%)
Missionary.
30 (3%)
So! Many! Choices! (Karma Sutra)
52 (5.2%)

Total Members Voted: 655

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Offline screwtape

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #783 on: December 05, 2017, 08:20:23 AM »
Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that. 

We have plenty to fear from you.  You don’t have to be westboro Baptist to be dangerous. 

I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

See?  That right there is dangerous. 

Also, to add to jdawg’s point, faith has multiple meanings and is thus ambiguous.  Avoid using it whenever possible.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline MikeTheUnconvinced

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #784 on: December 05, 2017, 07:56:26 PM »
My position is agnostic atheist but I'm very near 100% certain that no gods exist. There just has not been any convincing evidence since...ever...that any supernatural beings exist!  :)
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #785 on: December 05, 2017, 11:20:55 PM »
Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that. 

We have plenty to fear from you.  You don’t have to be westboro Baptist to be dangerous. 

I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

See?  That right there is dangerous. 

Also, to add to jdawg’s point, faith has multiple meanings and is thus ambiguous.  Avoid using it whenever possible.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part. 

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #786 on: December 06, 2017, 05:22:20 AM »
Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that. 

We have plenty to fear from you.  You don’t have to be westboro Baptist to be dangerous. 

I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

See?  That right there is dangerous. 

Also, to add to jdawg’s point, faith has multiple meanings and is thus ambiguous.  Avoid using it whenever possible.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

Belief in something for which there is no evidence and being comfortable with the idea is how every religious war in history started. It's how people got still get slaughtered just for having a different skin color. It's how people are kept under control. It is very dangerous, if you take two seconds to think about it, or know anything about history.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #787 on: December 06, 2017, 10:18:43 AM »
There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'faith' and what you mean by 'being good with believing something that may not be true'.

Mr. Death, do you think that the decisions you make and the actions you take that may or may not affect people who are not you are in someway informed by what you believe, in particular, those beliefs that you have out of faith (i.e. beliefs that you hold that have no evidence for their truth-value)?

I think that when people make decisions, those decisions are in some way informed by their beliefs (i.e. I decide not to eat the urinal cake for breakfast as I believe that consumption of urinals cakes would make me ill).  Those decisions in some way inform their actions (i.e. I flush the toilet; I do not reach down to pick up the urinal cake; I buy a protein bar from the vending machine).

Would someone's belief that 'entity x will prevent my child from falling into a diabetic coma with greater success than calling an ambulance' possibly be dangerous?  Do you think someone who holds such a belief does so based on the preponderance of the evidence or, possibly, as a belief born of and supported by faith?

I guess...Mr. Death, would you agree that it is possibly dangerous to believe things regarding the reality we all occupy that are not actually true?  Dangerous for the person holding those beliefs?  Dangerous for other persons who can be affected by the decisions and actions of the person holding those beliefs?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Online velkyn

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #788 on: December 06, 2017, 10:29:51 AM »
My position is agnostic atheist but I'm very near 100% certain that no gods exist. There just has not been any convincing evidence since...ever...that any supernatural beings exist!  :)

hi mike,

were you ever a theist?  Most folks here tend to be ex-theists, but some never had to deal with the nonsense.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #789 on: December 06, 2017, 10:58:56 AM »
I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

No offense taken. 

Question for you, though.  How do we tell what is real or true from what is not?

What prevents you from believing vampires, faeries, zeus and supply side economics are real?  Or do you believe in those things too? 
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #790 on: December 06, 2017, 11:53:24 AM »
I forgot to mention about my change in vote.

One year ago, I voted gnostic monotheist and agnostic deist. Now my vote is on "Any type of henotheist" and "agnostic deist".
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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #791 on: December 06, 2017, 12:24:05 PM »
My position is agnostic atheist but I'm very near 100% certain that no gods exist. There just has not been any convincing evidence since...ever...that any supernatural beings exist!  :)

Welcome to the board Mike.  I echo your sentiments exactly.  Gods sure come across as a human concept, especially since there have been so many of them in different countries over time.

I often hear the argument "but why would so many people in different countries over time believe in God?"  But people located in different places can think of very similar things on their own, like music, clothes, fictional literature, etc.  Just as you notice that Gods are different in different regions, so are the types of food, music, languages, etc.   And who's to say travelers didn't reach other countries very early on and do missionary work way back when, even before Biblical times? 

Offline Jag

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #792 on: December 06, 2017, 12:48:23 PM »
It certainly appears that this God guy needed European ships to get him across the ocean to the Americas. Funny how a little thing like an ocean is enough to keep a God looked in place.
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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #793 on: December 06, 2017, 03:46:52 PM »
It certainly appears that this God guy needed European ships to get him across the ocean to the Americas. Funny how a little thing like an ocean is enough to keep a God looked in place.

I know, also should be a huge issue for Christians.  I don't think history shows that when the British and Spanish settlers entered the New World that the Native Americans were saying "Oh yeah, don't worry we already know about Jesus, we're on board."  No, it's likely they had it rammed down their throats by the settlers while they stole their artwork, gold, etc.

Isn't the concept of missionaries odd to begin with?  Why would you even need them?  Wouldn't these people already know that Jesus is the answer?  But at my old church I remember pastors saying "God likes using humans to do his work, to give us a purpose."  They would cite people like Moses - "see, Moses was someone who struggled with speech, and look how God used him" and so on. 

There's an answer for everything.  "But what about those that the missionaries never reach?  What happens to them?"  Answer: "Well they get to go to heaven because you can't be blamed in that situation."  That leads back to "Then I'm better off not evangelizing to anyone.  Once they hear about Jesus, they have no excuses and it sets up the risk of hell." 

These are the types of points that need to be made, calmly, to theists.  Yes, most of them won't listen, but at least we can say "this is one of the reasons I"m an agnostic atheist."  I've told my Christian friends often "I'll calmly tell you my top 5-10 reasons why  I don't believe in your God", just like I'm sure most of you have done. Some will entertain you and let you talk, but they're not really listening - and will preach to you a week later.  Others won't even let you talk.  I'm not sure it's worth even dealing with them.  A true Christian friend will at least let you voice your opinions, just as you let them explain why they believe what they do.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #794 on: December 16, 2017, 07:02:33 PM »
I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

No offense taken. 

Question for you, though.  How do we tell what is real or true from what is not?

What prevents you from believing vampires, faeries, zeus and supply side economics are real?  Or do you believe in those things too?

Supply side economics is a real thing.  I just hope it never gets put into full practice. It's kind of stupid. We do need taxes and regulation. Just not too much at once.  No I don't believe in vampires, faeries,  aliens abducting us, flat earth, young earth creationism, "Literal" biblical creationism, big foot, El Chupacabra, nor the mole men, with a leader who is a talking flower. 

I can see EXACTLY where you are going here. Santa Clause doesn't exist so neither does God.  I don't believe in vampires so how can I believe in God?  NO offense but it's the same old thing. We know that vampires are fictional. We can even track down the authors who created them in their imagination.   The bible is not so easy to track. Who were the authors?  Nobody knows.  As far as the gospels in the New Testament goes,  four different authors have four different opinions.  History at  that time is sketchy at best.  SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion.  After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.


Offline Nick

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #795 on: December 16, 2017, 10:20:51 PM »
Mole men are real.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #796 on: December 17, 2017, 10:31:29 AM »
History at  that time is sketchy at best.  SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion.

Poor reasoning. Gaps in knowledge are gaps. Filling gaps with beliefs leads to unreliable conclusions. The contradictions in religions around the world shows that faith and belief are not reliable ways to fill gaps in knowledge.

Quote
After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

So you want to believe an unreliable opinion merely because you think it cannot be proved wrong. Is it really a good idea to believe something merely because it cannot be proved wrong?

You are also factually incorrect that Christianity cannot be proved wrong. Take Matthew's gospel which was written as an elaborate metaphor of the OT, Moses and a new Torah. For example too much ink has been wasted proving that the birth stories are not historical. They were not intended to be. They are a metaphorical replay of the OT. Similarly the physical resurrection and graves opening in Matthew is a metaphor based on Isaiah and what what supposed to happen. It is not a historical description. Neither are the gospel resurrection stories which developed later. The earliest descriptions of the resurrection in the letters of Saul say that the resurrection was a vision and specifically deny that there was a physical resurrection since flesh and bone cannot be resurrected. The visions of Saul are based on his preconceived cosmology which bears no relationship to reality. Likewise the vision of the disciples seeing Jesus float up to the clouds of heaven is based on contemporary cosmology about souls floating up to the gates of heaven in the solid dome above the flat Earth. You can see the same thing carved on the arch of Domitian in Rome at the same time, where the soul of the emperor Titus is taken up to heaven by an eagle.

Matthew edited Mark's gospel into a new gospel because he could see that Mark had misunderstood his sources. Mark failed to understand that many of his stories were based on OT stories and edited with Jesus instead of Elija or Elisha. Mark starts with a famous misquote which does not exist. Matthew recognized that Mark was writing a religious treatise based on hearsay and OT quotes rather than history so Matthew felt free to correct Mark's literary sources and remodel the gospel to favour the disciples, whereas Mark wrote against the disciples and denied their historical bumbling peasant political rebel Jesus in order to promote Saul's unreal perfect visonary Jesus. Matthew's attitude to Mark can be seen in the story about the women at the tomb where Mark says they told no one. Matthew knew that Mark was not writing history so he felt free to change the story and say the exact opposite that the women did tell the disciples. By Matthew's time the disciples were safely dead so he could use them as literary figures in a Jewish metaphorical gospel.

Just as Mark's sect based on Saul was hostile to the disciples, so was John's sect which got around the problem of sidelining the disciples and their political rebel Jesus by inventing a fictional greatest disciple of their own. Jesus and the disciples had very little to do with the main sects of Christianity which only developed them as literary figures to serve as mouthpieces of the sect's own ideas. By the time the Second letter of Peter was written, about a hundred years later, we can read that that some of the Christian sects were calling the gospels "cleverly devised myths". Obviously some of the sects still knew that the gospels were not historical texts.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #797 on: December 17, 2017, 01:02:49 PM »
History at  that time is sketchy at best.  SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion.

Poor reasoning. Gaps in knowledge are gaps. Filling gaps with beliefs leads to unreliable conclusions. The contradictions in religions around the world shows that faith and belief are not reliable ways to fill gaps in knowledge.

Quote
After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

So you want to believe an unreliable opinion merely because you think it cannot be proved wrong. Is it really a good idea to believe something merely because it cannot be proved wrong?

You are also factually incorrect that Christianity cannot be proved wrong. Take Matthew's gospel which was written as an elaborate metaphor of the OT, Moses and a new Torah. For example too much ink has been wasted proving that the birth stories are not historical. They were not intended to be. They are a metaphorical replay of the OT. Similarly the physical resurrection and graves opening in Matthew is a metaphor based on Isaiah and what what supposed to happen. It is not a historical description. Neither are the gospel resurrection stories which developed later. The earliest descriptions of the resurrection in the letters of Saul say that the resurrection was a vision and specifically deny that there was a physical resurrection since flesh and bone cannot be resurrected. The visions of Saul are based on his preconceived cosmology which bears no relationship to reality. Likewise the vision of the disciples seeing Jesus float up to the clouds of heaven is based on contemporary cosmology about souls floating up to the gates of heaven in the solid dome above the flat Earth. You can see the same thing carved on the arch of Domitian in Rome at the same time, where the soul of the emperor Titus is taken up to heaven by an eagle.

Matthew edited Mark's gospel into a new gospel because he could see that Mark had misunderstood his sources. Mark failed to understand that many of his stories were based on OT stories and edited with Jesus instead of Elija or Elisha. Mark starts with a famous misquote which does not exist. Matthew recognized that Mark was writing a religious treatise based on hearsay and OT quotes rather than history so Matthew felt free to correct Mark's literary sources and remodel the gospel to favour the disciples, whereas Mark wrote against the disciples and denied their historical bumbling peasant political rebel Jesus in order to promote Saul's unreal perfect visonary Jesus. Matthew's attitude to Mark can be seen in the story about the women at the tomb where Mark says they told no one. Matthew knew that Mark was not writing history so he felt free to change the story and say the exact opposite that the women did tell the disciples. By Matthew's time the disciples were safely dead so he could use them as literary figures in a Jewish metaphorical gospel.

Just as Mark's sect based on Saul was hostile to the disciples, so was John's sect which got around the problem of sidelining the disciples and their political rebel Jesus by inventing a fictional greatest disciple of their own. Jesus and the disciples had very little to do with the main sects of Christianity which only developed them as literary figures to serve as mouthpieces of the sect's own ideas. By the time the Second letter of Peter was written, about a hundred years later, we can read that that some of the Christian sects were calling the gospels "cleverly devised myths". Obviously some of the sects still knew that the gospels were not historical texts.


Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :) 

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #798 on: December 17, 2017, 01:28:45 PM »
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?
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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #799 on: December 17, 2017, 06:19:27 PM »
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

it seems you've invented your own version of Christianity, like the rest of the Christians.  And the concept of vampires has been around quite a long time, to the point of not knowing who invented the idea (a good part of my heritages is centered around the Carpathian Mountains). Does that make them believable now?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 06:23:33 PM by velkyn »
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #800 on: December 17, 2017, 08:14:30 PM »
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?

I consider myself a Christian in a philosophical sense. I am uncertain if "Jesus" was the actual Son of God. A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.

Offline albeto

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #801 on: December 17, 2017, 09:54:30 PM »
A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.

More of them aren't. In general do you dismiss the damaging ideas one puts into motion because the same person had some good ideas? And actually, can you think of one idea Jesus taught that he came up with himself?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #802 on: December 17, 2017, 10:21:40 PM »
Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?

I consider myself a Christian in a philosophical sense. I am uncertain if "Jesus" was the actual Son of God. A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.

I take it then that salvation isn't a concept that is a part of your Christianity?

Why do you consider yourself a Christian in a philosophical sense, and not a Confuscianist in a philosophical sense?  Or a Hindu in a philosophical sense?

What about your philosophy would you consider primarily 'Christian', as opposed to being primarily 'Confucian' or 'Hindu' or 'humanist' or 'secular' or 'caring about others' or 'perceiving morality as the consequences of our actions on ourselves an others'?  Like, what wisdom from Jesus or Confucius or Ghandi did you or society acquire that is in any way specifically Christian, Confucian, or Hindu?  Anything at all?

I get that you consider yourself unorthodox, but what degree of 'unorthodox' is too unorthodox?  I could call myself an unorthodox vegan but my continual consumption of animal based products and animal flesh really stretch the use of the word 'unorthodox' in that context.  I don't know if this is a circumstance of misuse of 'unorthodox'.  I feel like...most other Christians on this forum would say that you are sufficiently unorthodox enough to not be legitimately Christian (insofar as you reject the resurrection of Jesus as a means of providing you with salvation).  Just throwing that out there.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #803 on: December 17, 2017, 11:45:20 PM »
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?

I consider myself a Christian in a philosophical sense. I am uncertain if "Jesus" was the actual Son of God. A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.

Apparently you do need education on the subject since you claim to know that Jesus had teachings and to know what they are. Experts cannot pin down which if any teachings go back to Jesus since all of the criteria have proved to be unreliable. Perhaps you have some magic criteria which allow you to know which teachings do go back to Jesus. Please share your magical sources of knowledge if you have them.

What is known is that many of the teachings were composed by members of the early sects to suit themselves or in Greek by the authors of the gospels for the purpose of their narrative. The various sects had divergent ideas about Jesus and it looks as if Jesus was just a bumbling rebel peasant with no coherent teaching at all which any sects could agree on. Saul complained to his converts about the Jews coming to them teaching different Jesuses and different gospels. That was only twenty years or so after Jesus was executed and already, even then no one could agree what Jesus actually taught, if anything.

Your statement that you are uncertain if Jesus was the son of some god or other, is absurd. There is no reason to be uncertain. If Jesus was a son of a god, the sources would not be "sketchy" as you said above. Everyone would know exactly what Jesus said and did, and his message would be the clearest message in the world, not the religion of 40,000 sects all arguing about what to believe and do.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #804 on: December 18, 2017, 04:17:43 PM »
Supply side economics is a real thing. 

It’s not.  I mean, it’s real as in, there is an idea called supply side economics.  But not real as in, it will not do what it claims.  Like jack and the beanstalk.  Or, you know, jesus H.

No I don't believe in vampires, faeries,  aliens abducting us, flat earth, young earth creationism, "Literal" biblical creationism, big foot, El Chupacabra, nor the mole men, with a leader who is a talking flower. 

Great!  Good to know!

Why not?

NO offense but it's the same old thing. We know that vampires are fictional. We can even track down the authors who created them in their imagination.   

Oh yeah?  Go ahead, then.  Track ‘em down.  But you’ll never do it.  Sure, you may say Anne Rice or Bram Stoker, but vampire stories predate them by a long shot.  The idea of vampires goes back centuries and centuries.  They were folk stories.  You will not find the authors of those.  Looks like vampires have more in common with jesus H besides coming back from the dead!

We could take another fictional character who isn’t as easy to dismiss as vampires.  How about a god?  How about Zeus?  You can be dismissive and say he’s made up too.  But why not do the same thing with the Hebrew deity?  Why one and not the other?  It’s not that easy, even with vampires.  You have not started to question why you think you know vampires aren’t real.

And what I asked was how do you tell real from fiction with faith?  Do you think faith is a good tool for doing that?

The bible is not so easy to track. Who were the authors?  Nobody knows.

???  So having less information about it makes it more reliable and more likely to be true?  I don’t find that to be a winning argument.

SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion. 

I don’t know what you mean by “literal faith”.  As if the word faith Isn’t confusing enough.  Sure, parts of it could be true.  But that’s not saying anything, is it?  Parts of Harry Potter are true too.

After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

That doesn’t sound like much of a commitment.  You sound quite casual.  Which is fine.  People here may jump to conclusions though.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #805 on: December 21, 2017, 03:25:21 PM »
Supply side economics is a real thing. 

It’s not.  I mean, it’s real as in, there is an idea called supply side economics.  But not real as in, it will not do what it claims.  Like jack and the beanstalk.  Or, you know, jesus H.

No I don't believe in vampires, faeries,  aliens abducting us, flat earth, young earth creationism, "Literal" biblical creationism, big foot, El Chupacabra, nor the mole men, with a leader who is a talking flower. 

Great!  Good to know!

Why not?

NO offense but it's the same old thing. We know that vampires are fictional. We can even track down the authors who created them in their imagination.   

Oh yeah?  Go ahead, then.  Track ‘em down.  But you’ll never do it.  Sure, you may say Anne Rice or Bram Stoker, but vampire stories predate them by a long shot.  The idea of vampires goes back centuries and centuries.  They were folk stories.  You will not find the authors of those.  Looks like vampires have more in common with jesus H besides coming back from the dead!

We could take another fictional character who isn’t as easy to dismiss as vampires.  How about a god?  How about Zeus?  You can be dismissive and say he’s made up too.  But why not do the same thing with the Hebrew deity?  Why one and not the other?  It’s not that easy, even with vampires.  You have not started to question why you think you know vampires aren’t real.

And what I asked was how do you tell real from fiction with faith?  Do you think faith is a good tool for doing that?

The bible is not so easy to track. Who were the authors?  Nobody knows.

???  So having less information about it makes it more reliable and more likely to be true?  I don’t find that to be a winning argument.

SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion. 

I don’t know what you mean by “literal faith”.  As if the word faith Isn’t confusing enough.  Sure, parts of it could be true.  But that’s not saying anything, is it?  Parts of Harry Potter are true too.

After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

That doesn’t sound like much of a commitment.  You sound quite casual.  Which is fine.  People here may jump to conclusions though.

I am quite casual Screwtape. I don't take anything too serious these days. The world's a friggin' joke.  Always has been. 

I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things. It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.  The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people.  When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?   It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

I accept the definition of the word "faith". Faith : Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.  I can't prove what is impossible to prove so I don't waste my energy.  I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.






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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #806 on: December 21, 2017, 03:30:11 PM »
I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things. It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.  The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people.  When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?   It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

I accept the definition of the word "faith". Faith : Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.  I can't prove what is impossible to prove so I don't waste my energy.  I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.

try explaining it.   A scientific hypothesis, by its definition, can be tested.  If you believe this god affects this universe, why can't it be shown to be real?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #807 on: December 21, 2017, 03:42:51 PM »
I am quite casual Screwtape. I don't take anything too serious these days. The world's a friggin' joke.  Always has been. 

I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things.
Was there evidence of those things before 'because of science'?  Before assessing vampires and mole men 'through science'[1], would you have said there was evidence of those things?

Quote
It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.  The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people.  When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?
The point would be to try to ascertain why the hypothesis cannot be tested, and see if there is any insight to be gleaned from that.  Though there is the corollary:
When a hypothesis can't be tested, then on what basis do you consider it to be true?

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It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.
Nor could you anticipate or control or test the reaction of a non-existence being.  How do you distinguish between real stuff that cannot, in principle, be tested and not real stuff that cannot, in principle, be tested?

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I accept the definition of the word "faith". Faith : Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.  I can't prove what is impossible to prove so I don't waste my energy.  I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.
Distinguish 'spiritual apprehension' from 'claiming to understand that which I do not understand'.  That sounds smarmy, I know, but it is a genuine, earnest question.  Please take a crack at explaining how 'spiritual apprehension' is different from 'claiming to understand that which I do not understand'.

Furthermore, what informs that spiritual understanding?  When talking about non-spiritual understanding, presumably evidence is a part of what informs non-spiritual understanding, yes?  So if it isn't evidence that informs that spiritual understanding, what is it?

I'm going to put this here for you to think about while answering the above regarding evidence and understanding:

About that : I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it. I hope you all are.
I'm not sure I would say that I'm 'good' with believing something that may or may not be true.  I've accepted it certainly - it is very, very, very possible that some things that I accept as 'true' are, in fact, not true.  Sounds like you do is as well, but I am curious if you'd be able to expand on what you mean by being good with believing something that may not be true.

This old thread may be of interest to you, not really to revive it or anything, but it may help to calibrate you on how discussions regarding 'faith' can go around here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,27596.29.html

I tend to believe that those who put forward the definition of 'faith' that you've put forward - belief in something with no actual evidence - and who embrace that faith fall into one of two categories:
1) You do not actually believe that, and there are situations where you will heavily lean on the word 'faith' to describe your relationship with your religion that have little to nothing to do with 'belief in something with no actual evidence'.  Often times this will be circumstances where 'faith' and 'trust' share many, many similarities.
2) You do actually believe that, and what it is you purport to have 'faith' in is so nebulous that discussions revolving around what you have 'faith' in read no different than a group exercise in writing fan fiction (i.e. if Leia had better control over the Force than Ben[2], she could reasonably defeat him in battle[3]).

I am sure there are more categories than that but those are the two that I generally see.  You may fall into one of those other categories.  You may defy categorization.  Don't know.

...
......

Is faith useful in distinguishing between what is true and what is not true?  Do you ever use faith to distinguish between what is true and what is not true?
 1. I'm not exactly clear on what 'because of science' means hence the scare quotes.
 2. If god could flood the entire world in 40 days...
 3. ...he could have caused a global flood to eliminate evil[1].
 1. Whether or not he succeeded in defeating evil is...subject to discussion.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #808 on: December 21, 2017, 04:21:21 PM »
I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things. It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.

You are not mistaken.  The scientific method is how I sort the true from untrue.  At least, I try to.  You seem to say you do too, but you carve out a gaping exception for your religious beliefs.  Why?

You may think that works for you, but I don’t see how.  How do you decide which religious beliefs to accept and which to reject?

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The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people. 

Give it a try.  I used to be religious.

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When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?   

If it cannot be tested, its not a scientific hypothesis. It’s just a hypothesis.  And if you cannot test it, it is an irrelevant hypothesis.  If i said the entire universe is shrinking, including the instruments we use to measure it, so we cannot tell it’s shrinking, have I actually said anything relevant?  Not really.  Functionally, there is no difference between that idea being true or it being false.

Similarly, if some suggests a god exists who is completely undetectable, what difference does it make?  The universe behaves exactly the same way if that god exists or doesn’t.

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It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

Then the god you offer is functionally irrelevant. 

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I accept the definition of the word "faith".

It is much more complicated than that.  I wrote an essay here on faith a while ago.  If I can find it, I will link it.

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I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.

I’m not worried about my protecting beliefs.  If a belief cannot stand on its own, I don’t want it. I am willing to change my mind if a better model (collection of beliefs) can be shown to be more accurate (has better predictive ability).  I want the most accurate beliefs.

What i am worried about are large groups of people destroying society or the planet - or just making life less good - because of the stupid things they believe by faith.


Edit: my old essay on faith
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10690.msg240850.html#msg240850
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 04:46:05 PM by screwtape »
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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #809 on: December 21, 2017, 05:45:39 PM »
a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

   That's the idea that I have a problem with.  Not the fact that there may be dimensions and existence I can't possibly understand - I get that.  But when you say "being", that too much limits the type of existence.  If you were to say, the energy (sans intelligence)  that exists at the quantum level and is indeed everywhere at the same time........OK, but that doesn't have an intelligent plan, or any need for a "faith", or a caring.  It is as simple as the basis of a molecule of H2O - so needs no adherence to, no worshipping, no faith.  It simply is.

   But to think there exists a being that demands allegiance, or else - sorry.  And that leads to the heart of the problem.  When human beings get all fired up about a belief that has no proof and confrontations lead to violence and murder, or ignoring science because that belief with no proof demands it, and legions march on and on and on, scorching the non agreeing - well, it makes a person want to safely, anonymously, debate what truth is known and acted upon, and what truth is guessed at and acted upon.  These days especially it seems necessary - a demanding need for debate.
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