Author Topic: Babies Don't Deserve To Die  (Read 828 times)

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Offline DumpsterFire

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Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« on: February 24, 2012, 10:34:48 AM »
Sorry in advance, guys, but I'm pretty upset right now and felt very compelled to make this post.

Some good friends of mine just lost their baby girl. They put her to bed with a runny nose and slight fever and by morning she was gone. She was 18 months old. My wife and I are heartbroken, but we can only imagine how devastating this is for our friends.

I wanted to create this thread because of a few posts I've read here that I find especially infuriating now. In response, I say the following:

Anyone who believes that all humans (even babies) deserve to die because it is man's intrinsic nature to sin and he should therefore be punished for it - FUCK YOU! You're wrong!
I am the father of a 3 y/o boy and 7 m/o girl, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that little children are incapable of "sin". No one deverves to be punished for something they haven't even done yet. Your god is an asshole!

Anyone who believes that this is just part of god's plan, he works in mysterious ways and we shouldn't question that - FUCK YOU! You're wrong!
There is no greater "lesson" to be learned here for 2 of the most humble and helpful people I've ever known. All the hopes and dreams they had for their little girl have been dashed. They will one day grow to accept that she is gone, but they will never get over losing their precious child. Its OK though, because god never gives us anything we can't handle and this experience will ultimately bring them closer to him, right? Bullshit. Any god who has to kill a child to make his point is a coward.

Anyone who believes that god just needed another angel to help him in heaven - FUCK YOU, you're wrong!
This is nothing but a feel-good lie. Your god doesn't need this poor little girl to help him decide which baby to kill next. Shouldn't an all-knowing god have forseen an angel shortage 18 months ago before he sent this one away? Your god is pathetic.

The bottom line is that no perfect, loving, and omnipotent being should ever allow a baby to die. The fact that it happens is just proof that bible god does not exist.

Sorry again for the rant, I definitely needed to get this off my chest.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 10:40:34 AM »
my sympathies, DF.  What a horrible thing to happen.  and I agree with your comments totally.
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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 11:01:05 AM »
I agree totally!
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Offline Iamrational

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 12:32:01 PM »
Innocent babies dying every day is easily what started my transition away from belief in any god. My dad would complain a while back that any god that lets so many bad things happen in this world is no god he wants to believe in. I then saw babies dying and my church telling me they must be baptized before they die so they are not stuck in purgatory. I then folded my napkin and said "check please."

Offline Boots

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 01:49:18 PM »
DF, you have my sympathies, as does the family who suffered such a loss.  I'm also the father of two, and my mind shrinks from imagining losing them.

Your comments are dead spot on.  I recall having rocked my children as infants, suffering from some sickness or other, or simply colicky and unable to sleep.  I'd sing to them, swing them, try to comfort them . . . all the while thinking "clearly there *is* no god."  No goodly diety with the power to do anything about it would let innocents suffer, even simple sickness.  Passing this off as some moral lesson to the parents is so utterly ridiculous that I can hardly express it.  If *I* were to, say, beat one child in order to teach a lesson to the other child--without talking to the other child or explaining anything, mind you--I'd be locked up for many, many years and every reasonable human would call me an evil monster, and they'd be right.  That god is allowed to do this is beyond my comprehension.

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Offline atheola

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 01:53:59 PM »
Of course we all die..EVERYTHING dies.. Some have worse timing than others, but we all are dying from "the moment of" forward without regard to deserving or not..that IS life.
I feel for them, but truly hope they're able to move forward with minimal grief..
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 02:03:15 PM »
I'm sorry to hear that a child died. That always hurts.

I agree completely with your rant, and welcome it. You needed to say it and it helps remind the rest of us why we hang around here. Taking a genuine tragedy, such as the loss of a child, and playing games with it via religion, vaporizes actual sympathy and replaces it with mind-games of infinite stupidity.

Death is a part of life, and anyone who has lived long enough starts to notice that it is often hard to control the who, how, when and where of such an event. We could certainly have a lot less death caused by we humans, and via medicine we can delay the deaths of many more, but we all go, sooner or later. Dealing with that reality, in ourselves and more especially when friends and loved ones are the victim, is hard enough. Reverting to three year olds and playing pretend rather than dealing directly with both the loss and the hurt is absolutely frickin' inhumane.

Rant on, my friend..
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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 02:06:30 PM »
My condolences. There is nothing that can be said that will help ease the pain, and it will most likely never go away completely, but it will get better with time. That's all you can really hope for.
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Offline wright

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 02:18:35 PM »
FWIW, you and your friends have my sympathies, DF. I have an eight year-old nephew; just the thought of losing him is a stab in the gut.

When I was a believer, the fantasy of an afterlife was comforting. Now almost seven years an atheist, I see how that fantasy cheapens the sacrifices and accomplishments my late relatives and friends made. The universe does not care about life, let alone human life, but we can make the choice to care.

Some theists who post here seem to think atheists are / should be nihilists, uncaring about anything but our own immediate desires. If we aren't, they accuse us of being hypocrites since according to them, altruism can only come from fear of a deity's judgment. To me, it seems the reverse: the knowledge you can be forgiven virtually any crime and be admitted to an eternal paradise is a license to run amuck during your mortal lifetime.

Human suffering, human compassion, human failing, human achievement, human hate, human love... Human, human, human, all the way from birth to death and no one to pick up the pieces and try to make them fit but ourselves.
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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 02:27:10 PM »
I agree with you 100%, and I'm so very, very sorry for the loss of this precious baby.  :(
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Offline Boots

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 04:37:49 PM »
I'd bet five bajillion dollars that no theists will ever post on a thread like this.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 01:57:32 AM »
Thanks to all for your supportive comments, they are appreciated.

The funeral was this afternoon, and it was just awful. I mean, it was a lovely service (as far as funerals go), but to see our friends so shattered was heart wrenching. I also simultaneously felt enormous guilt that their baby girl is gone while ours is still here, and great fear that we could someday be in their shoes.

The only plus was that it was held in a small Methodist church and was the least god-centric memorial service I've ever been to. The officiant never once said the baby was in a better place or with god now, and even said that there was no way the death of a child could ever be considered a good thing (or something to that effect). I had no previous experience with Methodists, but my wife informs me that they don't thump their bibles to anywhere near the deafening degree that other Xians in these parts do.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 02:58:20 AM »
Of course we all die..EVERYTHING dies.. Some have worse timing than others, but we all are dying from "the moment of" forward without regard to deserving or not..that IS life.
I feel for them, but truly hope they're able to move forward with minimal grief..

I understand and appreciate where you're coming from, but I hope you can acknowledge that there is still an enormous distinction to be made regarding the "timing". I have been to 3 funerals so far this year (off to a rough start).

The first was my grandmother, whom I have idolized and adored my whole life, who finally succumbed to bone cancer. She was 85. As much as I miss her, I am comfortable in the knowledge that she lived a good, full life. She touched a lot of lives and truly made this world a better place while she was here.

The second was for a close friend of my wife, another of cancer's victims. She was 62, which nowdays is an age at which most folks are planning to live the next couple of decades in retirement. But she left her mark in life, as well. She was an exceptionally beautiful woman, as a young fashion model her photos appeared in publications all over the world. Later, she became a community activist, always striving to help those less fortunate. She was also a mother and grandmother.

 Losing a child is a far greater tragedy, because so much wonderful potential is wasted. This little girl could have literally discovered the cure for the cancer that killed these women. Or she could have been an astronaut, an equestrian, a MMA champion, who knows? I know its trite, but she could have been the first female President.
To be fair, she could have been a strung-out crack whore too, but I would feel a whole lot better if she still just had the opportunity to decide how to live her potential.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 09:16:47 AM »
I am so sorry. 

My little one had a cough last night, and I curled up next to her and worried the way parents do over little things.  I fretted over the big kid who told her Elmo was for babies, and felt the overwhelming urge to protect her from the whole world, while at the same time hoping that I am giving her the skills and tools to protect herself. 

When I look at her, I imagine the world that she will see when I am gone.  She is my link to the future.  My link to eternity. 

I know parents who lose children often comfort themselves with the belief that god loved theses children so much that he "called them home" early, and that they are now angels in heaven.  I would never begrudge a parent who found comfort in those beliefs.  But I could certainly never respect their god. 

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 01:18:24 PM »
You will never hear someone say that God killed the child so that people will stop believing in him. But that is what many times happens.
I lost my faith when my little nephew was run over and killed by a careless driver.
My brother was consoled by people telling him that God needed another angel in heaven.

I let him hold on to that thought, if it helped to ease his grief.
What I really wanted to do was tell these people, " Anyone who believes that god just needed another angel to help him in heaven - FUCK YOU, you're wrong!"

Right on DumpsterFire. My condolences to you and your friends.
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Offline BSD MAN

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2012, 08:10:10 PM »
Dumpster - Horrible loss and so difficult and confusing.  We ask "why/how does this happen"... an answer will never be found.  There are probably hundreds of child deaths daily caused from war, starvation, tyranny, illness, accidents etc... Not a single one serves a purpose anyone can understand.  It is needless, sad and depressing...and more common than should be. 

Not all Xtians feel this notion of children deserving death b/c of original sin.  As a theist (Catholic) it is our belief that God does not purposefully cause these deaths due original sin (for being born??), or that somehow its "deserved".  Not a single child "deserves" death (I've got three of my own and can relate to the horror I would feel).  Death is a part of life and no one can deny that.  Our theology is this: baptized children who are not of knowledge that they are sinning or what sin is (usually 6 years and younger, depends on their comprehension and awareness), and die, go straight to God's arms.  Unbaptized children... well we simply do not know what happens and the truth has not been revealed to us.  We HOPE God accepts all wherever there is a question though, and it would make me happy and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

I would truly like to know where or who told you this notion of "deserving" death due to original sin as punishment.  I know there are some fundamentalist theologies that may hold this notion. 
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 08:30:40 PM »
  Our theology is this: baptized children who are not of knowledge that they are sinning or what sin is (usually 6 years and younger, depends on their comprehension and awareness), and die, go straight to God's arms.  Unbaptized children... well we simply do not know what happens and the truth has not been revealed to us.  We HOPE God accepts all wherever there is a question though, and it would make me happy and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.



You ‘hope” your God accepts all dead children?  But He has not been kind enough to reveal what he really does with unbaptized dead children to the millions (billions?) of parents who have lost such children throughout history?  Is He too busy?  Does He not think that this is important or valuable information that mere humans might like to know.  If you were to arrive in heaven and find that a beloved child of yours were not there, would you request a pass to go visit the child in purgatory or hell or wherever she was?  If a visitor’s pass was denied, would you just accept God’s decision and move on with your enjoyment of eternity?  And what about the 7 year olds?  Do the ones that coveted their neighbor’s xbox go straight to Hell if they die prior to confessing that sin? 

I guess I am just baffled that you could even like this God, let alone worship Him.



Offline Brakeman

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 09:23:29 PM »
The bible explicitly claims that god sentenced mankind to death, so the Catholic's response was not accurate. As a matter of fact, theologically, only christians that lived long enough to understand and accept jesus and repent will be in heaven. They just don't want to admit that they believe in scripture that says god will send this small child to a lake of fire and torture for eternity.

I have a wonderful three year old girl too, and I don't know that I wouldn't take my own life for the pain if something happened to her.   
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 01:56:58 PM »

I would truly like to know where or who told you this notion of "deserving" death due to original sin as punishment.  I know there are some fundamentalist theologies that may hold this notion.

I have read several posts by fundies on this forum (can't remember the threads, unfortunately) that supported this nonsense, and there are websites that say the same, such as this quote from http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html:

"As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so."

As ridiculous as it may be, this seems the only way to reconcile the problem of suffering in the minds of True BelieversTM.
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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 08:05:08 PM »
Unbaptized children... well we simply do not know what happens and the truth has not been revealed to us.  We HOPE God accepts all wherever there is a question though, and it would make me happy and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

BSD man, tell me what would you do if you were to learn that you are mistaken, and your god throws unbaptized infants into the lake of fire?
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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2012, 08:21:11 PM »
So sorry to hear of the poor baby and her parents :'(.

I comforted a mother in a poor country while her baby died of typhoid. No god worth the title would put any parent through that pain and anguish. That is why we human people must care for and comfort each other.

And people who needlessly hurt children should get what comes to them.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 03:33:37 AM »
Our theology is this: baptized children who are not of knowledge that they are sinning or what sin is (usually 6 years and younger, depends on their comprehension and awareness), and die, go straight to God's arms.  Unbaptized children... well we simply do not know what happens and the truth has not been revealed to us.  We HOPE God accepts all wherever there is a question though, and it would make me happy and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

Stuff like this is why I have not been and could never be taken in by religion. I could never be OK with a god who could split hairs like this. Why should he care whether a child has been dunked in water or not?

It reminds me of an experience I had with a former co-worker (a Jehova's Witness, if I remember correctly) who insisted that I would go to hell because I smoked cigarettes (FYI, I was a casual smoker for years, but probably averaged only about a pack a week. I've quit since having my children) and god didn't want me "defiling my temple", so to speak. The thing is, this guy was maybe 6 ft. tall and weighed literally about 400 lbs., and his wife was of similar proportions. So this morbidly obese fool is deriding me for smoking, and the whole time I'm thinking apparently gluttony is perfectly acceptable to his god. I just told him his version of heaven sounded like a pretty small place, and I probably wouldn't enjoy being there anyway.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2012, 04:05:14 AM »
You will never hear someone say that God killed the child so that people will stop believing in him. But that is what many times happens.
I lost my faith when my little nephew was run over and killed by a careless driver.
My brother was consoled by people telling him that God needed another angel in heaven.

I let him hold on to that thought, if it helped to ease his grief.
What I really wanted to do was tell these people, " Anyone who believes that god just needed another angel to help him in heaven - FUCK YOU, you're wrong!"

Right on DumpsterFire. My condolences to you and your friends.

My condolences on your loss, as well, Changeling.

I agree with letting the parents hold on to whatever may help ease their pain. I can tell you I was as reverent as I could be at this little girl's ceremony. There are some times that are golden opportunities to enlighten certain delusional folks on the error of their god fearin' ways, but brother this ain't one of 'em.

Even though I can honestly say I have never been a true follower of any religion, for most of my life I believed there was a loving god who influenced our lives, I just didn't think he supported organized religion. It was the terrible Asian tsunami a few years back that made me really question the existence of a loving god. I saw a video clip showing a family, including several small children, swept away by the water and couldn't help wondering how god could allow that to happen. My search for answers eventually led me to discover WWGHA.

And here we are.
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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 06:38:52 AM »
It reminds me of an experience I had with a former co-worker (a Jehova's Witness, if I remember correctly) who insisted that I would go to hell because I smoked cigarettes

Probably not a JW -- they're very much opposed to smoking (and all other drug use, except drinking in very small amounts), but they don't believe in hell.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2012, 07:45:17 AM »
It reminds me of an experience I had with a former co-worker (a Jehova's Witness, if I remember correctly) who insisted that I would go to hell because I smoked cigarettes

Probably not a JW -- they're very much opposed to smoking (and all other drug use, except drinking in very small amounts), but they don't believe in hell.

Well, as a previous post regarding Methodists should have established, I am no expert on the fine distictions between certain faiths.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2012, 11:00:54 AM »
The bottom line is that no perfect, loving, and omnipotent being should ever allow a baby to die. The fact that it happens is just proof that bible god does not exist.

Have you read the bible? Allowing (sometimes causing, sometimes mandating) babies to die is right up his alley. I think pointing out all the bad shit that happens in the world makes a strong case for the bible being true, since the bible God is an evil mother-fucker. So I think you mean that the fluffy happy hugs and kisses sky-daddy that is not in the bible but Christians pull of out of their asses does not exist.

You've heard the expression "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing mankind he didn't exist." I think I'm more inclined to believe that "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing mankind he was God" (and that evil is actually good).
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2012, 12:28:29 AM »
The bottom line is that no perfect, loving, and omnipotent being should ever allow a baby to die. The fact that it happens is just proof that bible god does not exist.

Have you read the bible? Allowing (sometimes causing, sometimes mandating) babies to die is right up his alley. I think pointing out all the bad shit that happens in the world makes a strong case for the bible being true, since the bible God is an evil mother-fucker. So I think you mean that the fluffy happy hugs and kisses sky-daddy that is not in the bible but Christians pull of out of their asses does not exist.

You've heard the expression "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing mankind he didn't exist." I think I'm more inclined to believe that "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing mankind he was God" (and that evil is actually good).

I suppose I should have said this is proof that the god most Xians believe in does not exist, 'cause you're right - the god depicted and described in the bible is pretty much a sumbitch.
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Offline IAmFirst

Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2012, 01:46:54 AM »
Deepest condolences to you and your friend's family, DF.

I have a cousin with two kids, the youngest with cancer since 3 years old. He is still beating it now and he will be 7 years old in a couple months.

My cousin's wife is pretty convinced god gave her this challenge for things she did in earlier life, like sex before marriage and drinking a beer. OH, THE HORROR! Even though her kid has suffered 1,000 times more than an illiterate Jesus on a cross for a couple days. (There's no child-size biopsy needle, folks. The kid's been stuck with that more than any kid covered in honey at an apiary.)

Although in this type of crowd, it's hard to convince anyone that they shouldn't worship such an asshole.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 01:48:26 AM by IAmFirst »
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Babies Don't Deserve To Die
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2012, 09:10:06 AM »
Deepest condolences to you and your friend's family, DF.

I have a cousin with two kids, the youngest with cancer since 3 years old. He is still beating it now and he will be 7 years old in a couple months.

My cousin's wife is pretty convinced god gave her this challenge for things she did in earlier life, like sex before marriage and drinking a beer. OH, THE HORROR! Even though her kid has suffered 1,000 times more than an illiterate Jesus on a cross for a couple days. (There's no child-size biopsy needle, folks. The kid's been stuck with that more than any kid covered in honey at an apiary.)

Although in this type of crowd, it's hard to convince anyone that they shouldn't worship such an asshole.

Poor kid.   The wife seems like the characteristic vain arrogant Christian who makes it all "me, me, me".  it has to be about her or she's not a special snowflake and her religion is nonsense.   
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