Author Topic: Do people really know what "give" means?  (Read 1938 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2012, 05:37:47 AM »
I "got it" just fine originally, and "got it" in exactly the way you've explained.  But your unjustifiably condescending tone is noted.

I can't see how this relates to legality, Luci.  That was the context you explicitly indicated in your OP.

Regarding the people you've spoken to:
Quote
I've spoken to some people who claim that they don't give money to the homeless because they "know" what they're going to do with "their"[1] money.

The (potential) gift has not actually been given in those cases you describe.  It's not like they've given away the money and are complaining about how it got used.  They're refraining from giving because they anticipate results that they don't approve of.

How does your criticism even apply to that?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:42:59 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2012, 07:05:29 AM »
I "got it" just fine originally, and "got it" in exactly the way you've explained.

Clearly you didn't.

I can't see how this relates to legality, Luci.  That was the context you explicitly indicated in your OP.

Actually no, it wasn't.

<snip>
How does your criticism even apply to that?

My criticism is that they are expecting the people who receive their "gifts" to use them in the manner that they (the people giving them) want them to and get angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here* when they don't, because they perceive their "gift" as still being theirs, rather than the person they "gave" it to.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2012, 07:27:03 AM »
My criticism is that they are expecting the people who receive their "gifts" to use them in the manner that they (the people giving them) want them to and get angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here* when they don't, because they perceive their "gift" as still being theirs, rather than the person they "gave" it to.

Let's say you see a haggard looking soul standing on the streetcorner, with a cardboard sign pleading "hungry, need help". You give him a cheeseburger. Would you or would you not be angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here* if they took that gift and bartered it for booze or drugs?

I think I would be, as the receiver was disingenuous, and the charity doesn't go for it's intended use or have it's desired effect. And, I see no problem with feeling angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here*.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2012, 07:29:02 AM »
<snip>

My criticism is that they are expecting the people who receive their "gifts" to use them in the manner that they (the people giving them) want them to and get angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here* when they don't, because they perceive their "gift" as still being theirs, rather than the person they "gave" it to.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Dante

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2012, 07:39:57 AM »
Let's say you see a haggard looking soul standing on the streetcorner, with a cardboard sign pleading "hungry, need help". You give him a cheeseburger. Would you or would you not be angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here* if they took that gift and bartered it for booze or drugs?

My criticism is that they are expecting the people who receive their "gifts" to use them in the manner that they (the people giving them) want them to and get angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here* when they don't, because they perceive their "gift" as still being theirs, rather than the person they "gave" it to.

So can I take it that's a "no" to my hypothetical question? No negative emotions from Lucifer?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2012, 07:45:19 AM »
So can I take it that's a "no" to my hypothetical question? No negative emotions from Lucifer?

You can take it as a "In the situations I'm referring to, the person is not being disingenuous about their intentions because their intentions are unknown. The person giving the gift is just assuming that the person receiving said gift is going to use it in a way that they (the person giving it) want them to because they believe that they still have rights over that which they gave away."
Which I thought was clear from the bold parts.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2012, 08:01:45 AM »
So can I take it that's a "no" to my hypothetical question? No negative emotions from Lucifer?

You can take it as a "In the situations I'm referring to, the person is not being disingenuous about their intentions because their intentions are unknown. The person giving the gift is just assuming that the person receiving said gift is going to use it in a way that they (the person giving it) want them to because they believe that they still have rights over that which they gave away."
Which I thought was clear from the bold parts.

Yet you didn't answer my question.

I understand your contention, and for the most part, you're correct. If one gives a beggar some money for no other reason than the beggar asked for it, one should not be *insert negative emotion here* if the beggar chooses to buy a bottle.

However, human nature doesn't always quite work that way. If we donate to a charity, let's say an animal shelter, we assume the donation goes to helping homeless animals in some fashion. We would have the right to be *insert negative emotion here* if our donation were used to fund something else, don't you agree?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2012, 08:04:22 AM »
Yet you didn't answer my question.

Because it's irrelevant in the context of the thread. In my situations (which are the ones where people's reactions make me think that they're idiots), the intentions are unknown to all except the person receiving the gift.

However, human nature doesn't always quite work that way. If we donate to a charity, let's say an animal shelter, we assume the donation goes to helping homeless animals in some fashion. We would have the right to be *insert negative emotion here* if our donation were used to fund something else, don't you agree?

Let's say that I agree. What good does it do to answer my question, which was whether this behaviour was present throughout the world and not just in the people I interact with?
Scratch that, what good does it do to the thread, where the situations being discussed already include the fact that the person receiving the gift is not being disingenuous?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 08:10:40 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2012, 08:08:39 AM »
Let's say that I agree. What good does it do to answer my question, which was whether this behaviour was present throughout the world and not just in the people I interact with?

It's an illustration, however incomplete, that yes, most people probably DO have expectations of how their charity is spent.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2012, 08:10:19 AM »
It's an illustration, however incomplete, that yes, most people probably DO have expectations of how their charity is spent.

Which was never in question. So, once again, how is your point relevant to the thread?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Dante

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2012, 08:13:59 AM »
In short, do most people think that they still have rights over something they gave away?

No. But they do have expectations.

Does that satisfactorily answer your question?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2012, 08:15:13 AM »
No. But they do have expectations.

Does that satisfactorily answer your question?

Yes, actually.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2012, 10:18:24 AM »

In short, do most people think that they still have rights over something they gave away? Or is this a minority?

I don't but I can still bitch about it, try to reinforce what I want it used for before giving it. And treat the person as the scumbag they are for claiming one reason they want the gift, and then using it for something else
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Offline atheola

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2012, 12:18:17 PM »
As mentioned before we use judgment or discretion when helping or even internally debating it.
The problem seems to be a matter of public perception as to EVERY homeless persons intent as to use of "giving" and currently public perception doesn't seem to favor many givees.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2012, 01:18:05 PM »
Clearly you didn't.

Clearly you are lying about that.

Actually no, it wasn't.

The text is right there in your OP.  So you are lying about this, too.  -1 for that.

My criticism is that they are expecting the people who receive their "gifts" to use them in the manner that they (the people giving them) want them to and get angry/sad/disappointed/*insert negative emotion here* when they don't, because they perceive their "gift" as still being theirs, rather than the person they "gave" it to.

There is no gift at all in the situation you describe.  The people you have described, you have described as not giving.

So, like I said, how does your criticism even apply, considering that there is no act of giving to criticize in the first place in the situation you described in the OP?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2012, 01:19:47 PM »
As mentioned before we use judgment or discretion when helping or even internally debating it.
The problem seems to be a matter of public perception as to EVERY homeless persons intent as to use of "giving" and currently public perception doesn't seem to favor many givees.

As I mentioned before several times, that was just an example. Perhaps a poor one, judging from how many posts are actually relevant to the OP, but an example nonetheless.

Clearly you are lying about that.

You can accuse me of many things, but lying isn't one of them. At least not anymore.

The text is right there in your OP.  So you are lying about this, too.  -1 for that.

<snip>

There is no gift at all in the situation you describe.  The people you have described, you have described as not giving.

So, like I said, how does your criticism even apply, considering that there is no act of giving to criticize in the first place in the situation you described in the OP?

Read my reply to atheola above.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2012, 01:24:45 PM »
You can accuse me of many things, but lying isn't one of them. At least not anymore.

Err, I just did.  But why do you say this anyway?

Read my reply to atheola above.

It was an example of people not giving.  So what you're saying is that the example wasn't actually an example of what you wanted?  That makes sense, given the differences between it and your more 'general-model" example above.

Hmm, let's introduce an example where there is a gift:  Parent set up a fund for the expressed purpose of helping their kid through college.  The fund money is transferred to their kid's possession.  Their kid then goes and spends most of it on beer, flunking out of college in the process.

According to you, the parents have no justification for feeling <insert negative emotion here> about the kid's decision to spend the money on beer.  It was a gift, after all.

EDIT:  Or, to control for the negative emotions about their kid flunking out, just assume that the kid didn't flunk out but was broke and couldn't pay rent.  Would they have reason to be pissed off or disappointed then?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:28:10 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2012, 01:41:53 PM »
Err, I just did.  But why do you say this anyway?

It's an expression.

It was an example of people not giving.  So what you're saying is that the example wasn't actually an example of what you wanted?  That makes sense, given your more 'general-model" example above.

It was an example to point out that people expect others to use their gifts as they want them to, rather than how the people receiving them want to.
Obviously the people receiving said gift are not being disingenuous about their intentions in these situations.

According to you, the parents have no justification for feeling <insert negative emotion here> about the kid's decision to spend the money on beer.  It was a gift, after all.

The emotions are not in question here; the belief that they still own, on some level, what they gave (id est: the origin of said emotions) is. People have every right to feel bad when others don't do what they want. It's rational. They're going against their wishes. What's not rational is trying to exert control over possessions that one gave away.

Example 1:
Person A gives a piece of furniture to person B.
Person B, however, has no more room for furniture and so decides to give said piece of furniture to an abortion clinic.
Person A is upset, as they don't approve of abortions. They say that person B had no right to do that, as it had been a gift from person A, and therefore should only have been used for something that person A would approve of.

Example 2:
Same setting as example 1. However, instead of it being a piece of furniture, it's an ugly painting.
Person B informs person A of their intentions to give it to an abortion clinic.
Person A is very upset, makes the same argument that person B has no right to do that, and so person B decides to keep it.
After a long time, person B realizes that the painting is ugly, and throws it away.
Person A visits person B's house and asks where the painting is. After person B explains it, person A gets upset and once again says that person B had no right to do that, as it had been a gift from person A.

In both situations, their feelings are justified. The reasons for said feelings, however, are not. Person B received a gift and it is within their right to do as they please, not as person A pleases. Person B is not a slave, a tool or a warehouse.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2012, 02:01:50 PM »
Then I guess what it comes down to is you using your own powerful psychic abilities to find out why people feel the way they do.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2012, 02:13:08 PM »
Then I guess what it comes down to is you using your own powerful psychic abilities to find out why people feel the way they do.

In my examples, which are situations that have happened to me and/or I have heard of, the reasons behind person A's feelings are made clear by person A himself/herself.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2012, 02:49:23 PM »
You mean like the situation in the OP where no giving of any sort was actually taking place?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2012, 02:52:57 PM »
You mean like the situation in the OP where no giving of any sort was actually taking place?

Yes, the situation where the point was not the act of giving, but rather the way the person felt towards the given property. It says so in front of "In short".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2012, 02:57:31 PM »
You mean, that it was "theirs"?  Well, it is theirs.  It really is still in their possession, because they havn't given it away.  So leaping from "they're calling it 'their' money" to "they must think it remains 'their' money after they give it away" is quite a stretch.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2012, 03:04:20 PM »
You mean, that it was "theirs"?  Well, it is theirs.  It really is still in their possession, because they havn't given it away.  So leaping from "they're calling it 'their' money" to "they must think it remains 'their' money after they give it away" is quite a stretch.

Leaping from "they're not giving it because they 'know' what the homeless will do with 'their' money" isn't a stretch. They were creating a scenario in which they had already given the homeless person the money (and thus was no longer theirs), yet were unhappy with they way "their" money was handled.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2012, 03:11:51 PM »
So let me see if I've got this straight.  You have people who refuse to give charity to poor people because they know, or at least believe, that those people would not spend it in a way they would approve of.  That seems pretty straightforward to me, given that they haven't actually relinquished possession of whatever they'd potentially give for charity.  It's still their property until they actually hand it over.  Furthermore, there are circumstances where the person giving something has the right to be concerned over the use to which that something is being put.  If I gave money to someone who was poor on the condition that he only spent that money to buy food that he would eat, and he then went and bought alcohol or drugs with it, I would have every right to be angry at him for lying to me.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2012, 03:16:24 PM »
<snip>

No, you did not get that straight. As I have explained at least five times throughout this thread, that was an example, and the point wasn't that the people were getting upset over the idea of the homeless person using their money for drugs or food. The point was that they believed that once the money was handed over, it still somehow belonged to them, or that they had some sort of rights over its expenditure.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2012, 03:42:55 PM »
No, you did not get that straight. As I have explained at least five times throughout this thread, that was an example, and the point wasn't that the people were getting upset over the idea of the homeless person using their money for drugs or food. The point was that they believed that once the money was handed over, it still somehow belonged to them, or that they had some sort of rights over its expenditure.
Well, if you've explained it at least five times, and you're still being misunderstood, both by people who've been here since the start and people who only just joined the topic, then perhaps you'd better rethink the way you're trying to explain it.  It clearly is not working, and to be honest, it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to split verbal hairs here.

The point is that they believe that the homeless person would spend the money they received on something the giver wouldn't approve of.  Therefore, they don't actually give the homeless person that money.  It has nothing to do with believing that they would have rights to money they'd given as charity, if they didn't negotiate those rights in advance.  If they actually handed the money over without conditions, they would of course give up any right to decide how that money is spent.  But they haven't actually handed the money over yet, therefore they're imagining the future condition of their money (if they give it to the homeless person) and getting upset over it.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2012, 03:48:05 PM »
Well, if you've explained it at least five times, and you're still being misunderstood, both by people who've been here since the start and people who only just joined the topic, then perhaps you'd better rethink the way you're trying to explain it.  It clearly is not working, and to be honest, it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to split verbal hairs here.

I did rethink the way I'm trying to explain it. I changed it to a general example where an unspecified property is given to another person, to avoid mistakes such as yours. I had also added the "In short" version to the OP, to prevent those same mistakes. Yet I keep being misunderstood. Unless you want to claim that this
In short, do most people think that they still have rights over something they gave away? Or is this a minority?
and this
Person A gives person B a "gift".
Person B accepts said gift and thinks about using it in a way that will benefit person B.
Person A then says "No, no. You can't use it like that. I wouldn't like it."
Person B thinks about using it in another way that will benefit nobody.
Person A restates that person B can't use it in that manner because they wouldn't like it.
Person B is confused. Person A gave them a gift; something for person B to use however they please, not how person A pleases.
Person A explains that although they gave person B a gift, that gift is to be used how person A wanted it to be used, not how person B wants it to be used.
Person B is confused once again. Did person A give them a gift or basically make them their storage container/tool?
Person A explains that it's a gift, but that they still retain all rights to that property.
and these
Example 1:
Person A gives a piece of furniture to person B.
Person B, however, has no more room for furniture and so decides to give said piece of furniture to an abortion clinic.
Person A is upset, as they don't approve of abortions. They say that person B had no right to do that, as it had been a gift from person A, and therefore should only have been used for something that person A would approve of.

Example 2:
Same setting as example 1. However, instead of it being a piece of furniture, it's an ugly painting.
Person B informs person A of their intentions to give it to an abortion clinic.
Person A is very upset, makes the same argument that person B has no right to do that, and so person B decides to keep it.
After a long time, person B realizes that the painting is ugly, and throws it away.
Person A visits person B's house and asks where the painting is. After person B explains it, person A gets upset and once again says that person B had no right to do that, as it had been a gift from person A.

In both situations, their feelings are justified. The reasons for said feelings, however, are not. Person B received a gift and it is within their right to do as they please, not as person A pleases. Person B is not a slave, a tool or a warehouse.
aren't clear, then I think the problem isn't on my side.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Do people really know what "give" means?
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2012, 03:51:44 PM »
Regarding your "in short" question, that has mostly to do with your psychic powers.

Regarding your other quoted explanations, they are hypotheticals.  The people in those hypotheticals have whatever thoughts you, the author, dictate them to have.  What does that have to do with the reality of how people think?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.