Author Topic: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated  (Read 6805 times)

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Offline Turbo SS

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Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« on: February 21, 2012, 03:57:35 PM »
On another forum there is a religious debate.  Here is what happened so far

Christian:  think God is more forgiving of which interpretation you choose and more insistent on living a life that is honorable, helpful, and worthwhile. Both religions push the same kind of living. The devil is in the details, but Jesus never pushed detail oriented religion, so I don't push it either.

Atheist: yeah, details. shit that gets in the place of grand stories. details dont matter to the religious. its the bigger picture!
the end justifies the means = rape, pillage, be immoral, just as long as you repent before you die so that you can make it to heaven. What a crock of shit.

Christian: Nope, actually, that's the opposite of what Jesus meant. All the immoral is precisely what is important to abstain from, the exact beliefs that set up denominations are what is unimportant. That's why churches are so off base sometimes. 

Me jumping in: What about when Jesus said he came to uphold old testament law and not change it. Old Testament law includes, rape, beating slaves, murder, etc.
Matthew 5:17-18
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Christian: You are translating those verses in a completely different manner. Depending on how you interpret those verses, they do not mean what you are implying.
But then another guy who actually is an atheist jumped in and said "I think turbo's reading of it is a little off.While nothing overrules the laws of heaven, it's not really his place to create anarchy by destroying the laws of man. basically, they'll be judged on their worth when dead anything, so all he can do is steer the laws as able. assist, not destroy"

So now I am thinking of what to respond with  I mean the christian I could pull out the magic decoder ring argument but what about the atheist?  I always assumed Jesus meant he came to fulfill the old testament law and not the law of man.  Any input or other ideas are appreciated. also are there any other verses where Jesus says he is upholding the old testament?

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 04:00:49 PM »
That's the problem with the immutable word of god, no? Even atheists need the decoder ring.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 04:02:44 PM »
Law in that verse is written with a capital L. Judging from christians' usual egocentricity towards their religion, it's talking about the Bible, not the "law of man".
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Offline Turbo SS

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 11:35:46 AM »
Law in that verse is written with a capital L. Judging from christians' usual egocentricity towards their religion, it's talking about the Bible, not the "law of man".

that sounds right to me, but I wonder if there is a source on that?

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 11:35:57 AM »
oh boy am I bored at work.  this gave me something to do.

On another forum there is a religious debate.  Here is what happened so far

Christian:  think God is more forgiving of which interpretation you choose and more insistent on living a life that is honorable, helpful, and worthwhile. Both religions push the same kind of living. The devil is in the details, but Jesus never pushed detail oriented religion, so I don't push it either.
  The usual Christian attempt to ignore anything that they don’t like.  It all becomes “details”.  I’d have asked the Christian what “worthwhile” means to them.  IF it means just being a decent person, then no religion is needed.
Quote
Atheist: yeah, details. shit that gets in the place of grand stories. details dont matter to the religious. its the bigger picture!
the end justifies the means = rape, pillage, be immoral, just as long as you repent before you die so that you can make it to heaven. What a crock of shit.
Christian: Nope, actually, that's the opposite of what Jesus meant. All the immoral is precisely what is important to abstain from, the exact beliefs that set up denominations are what is unimportant. That's why churches are so off base sometimes. 
Here I’d ask for a definition of “immoral” and what the exact beliefs of Christians are.  Each sect has a different idea and they all claim to be just as Christian as the next and each has no evidence to claim to be such. 
Quote
Me jumping in: What about when Jesus said he came to uphold old testament law and not change it. Old Testament law includes, rape, beating slaves, murder, etc.
Matthew 5:17-18
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Christian: You are translating those verses in a completely different manner. Depending on how you interpret those verses, they do not mean what you are implying.
  Here we have the Christain insisting that their interpretation is the only “right” one.  However, as one can tell from the bible, JC repeatedly says that his father’s laws are to be upheld.  He *never* says to anyone to not follow them, only that the Pharisees are wrong in how they apply the laws.  The earth and heavens are still here, so what does the Christian think was “really” meant?  It is only after JC supposedly dies, that early Chrsitians have to come up with a way to excuse their new audience from bothering with the laws that the jewish messiah still said were in force.   
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But then another guy who actually is an atheist jumped in and said "I think turbo's reading of it is a little off.While nothing overrules the laws of heaven, it's not really his place to create anarchy by destroying the laws of man. basically, they'll be judged on their worth when dead anything, so all he can do is steer the laws as able. assist, not destroy"
  This is an excuse for why god doesn’t do anything anymore. The Chrsitian God constantly interferes with humanity, if one is to believe it. Those laws that are in play are not man’s at all, they are indeed the laws of heaven, as Lucifer noted.   I would have a hard time believing this person was an atheist with an excuse like that.
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So now I am thinking of what to respond with  I mean the christian I could pull out the magic decoder ring argument but what about the atheist?  I always assumed Jesus meant he came to fulfill the old testament law and not the law of man.  Any input or other ideas are appreciated. also are there any other verses where Jesus says he is upholding the old testament?
 
use the whole bit from Matthew 5
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17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
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Matthew 7: 9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
  Again, never said that the Law is to be ignored.  Here it is only summed up.
Matthew 12 also discusses the law and has only that the Pharisees were misusing it, that the law still held but obeying God was still allowed.  The priests could still be on duty, which still breaks the law, but they are also considered innocent.  Just like JC could heal and still be doing God’s work.  The divine law takes this into consideration and again, still applies.
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Matthew 13: 52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”
  The law is the old treasure to be added to the new.
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Matthew 22: 34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
IF the law was not in play,why did JC answer this question as he did? Why not say “The Law does not apply anymore.”?

Luke 10 and the parable of the good Samaritan has an expert in the divine law asking JC how he can get eternal life.  JC asks him what he thinksk the law says, and gets a repeat of what JC thinks are the most important laws (the ones all others hang from).  He affirms this to the expert, again confirming that the laws are to be followed.   

there are others.  The only instance that I can think of that seem to have JC directly contradicting a law from God is the story about the adultress, but that set of verses is largely thought to be a much later addition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery   I suppose one could also argue that JC was doing what God wanted and again, has an out from the laws. 
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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 11:47:39 AM »
Law in that verse is written with a capital L. Judging from christians' usual egocentricity towards their religion, it's talking about the Bible, not the "law of man".

that sounds right to me, but I wonder if there is a source on that?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A17-18&version=NIV
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 12:44:28 PM »
On another forum there is a religious debate.   

Me jumping in: What about when Jesus said he came to uphold old testament law and not change it. Old Testament law includes, rape, beating slaves, murder, etc.
Matthew 5:17-18
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

So now I am thinking of what to respond with  I mean the christian I could pull out the magic decoder ring argument but what about the atheist?  I always assumed Jesus meant he came to fulfill the old testament law and not the law of man.  Any input or other ideas are appreciated. also are there any other verses where Jesus says he is upholding the old testament?

Before you rebuttle, you'd do well to first make sure that you don't do so by arguing that "Jesus said he came to uphold old testament law and not change it" as if that, excuse me, YOUR understanding is in fact correct. Upholding and fulfilling are not one and the same. My advice would be to put your focus into having the Christian show you that Jesus has in fact fulfilled the law, thus nullifying its requirements (which were applicable to Israelites only). If they cannot show you that Jesus did in fact fulfill the law, then you can focus them in on that fact and how because Jesus didn't fulfill the law that it has yet to be terminated. After getting them to see these things, then you should focus in on how Paul in Romans and other letter that made the canon tells readers that the law has in fact been nullified (nailed to the cross) by Jesus. At that point they will likely sya that Jesus fulfilled the law by dying, and when they go there have them prove to you from their Bible's old Testament where it even hints that the law would be fulfilled in that way. At that point, you should keep pointing out the OT messianic prophecies and how Jesus misses the mark as it relates to fulfilling them.

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 10:46:07 PM »
.....
Me jumping in: What about when Jesus said he came to uphold old testament law and not change it. Old Testament law includes, rape, beating slaves, murder, etc.
Matthew 5:17-18
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

So now I am thinking of what to respond with  I mean the christian I could pull out the magic decoder ring argument but what about the atheist?  I always assumed Jesus meant he came to fulfill the old testament law and not the law of man.  Any input or other ideas are appreciated. also are there any other verses where Jesus says he is upholding the old testament?
Hi Turbo:
There was no God given law from Adam to Moses, so no sin was charged.  Why, all of a sudden did God suddenly get into the legislation business?  The answer is simple!  God chose the assembly known as the children of Israel, to become the great everlasting nation of His everlasting, unconditional, good news promise to Abraham.  The 10 commandments God gave to the COI, were basically the 10 unity rules for becoming a great everlasting nation.  How do I know that?  The covenant nation of Israel became divided against it'self, and fell into non-existence.  The only way it could become divided against it'self(dis-united) is to have broken the 10 commandments.  The 10 commandments were the only laws which God gave, and He gave them not to individuals, but to a nation, as a national standard which would lead to great everlasting nationhood.
After the nation had fallen, God's law continued to exist, but the nation it was given to did not exist, so God's law applied to no one.  It is exactly the same for man now, as it was between Adam and Moses...no God given law applies to anyone.
Since God's promise of a great everlasting nation which will bless all nations, is everlasting and unconditional, it means that the fallen kingdom will have to be resurrected from the dead to fulfill the job for which God chose it.  Hence the good news of the coming kingdom.
When the body of believers, which is being built for the Christ, becomes large enough to take and hold the land defined in God's promise, the Christ will appear and lead it to the resurrection of the kingdom of Covenant Israel from the dead, resurrected Covenant Israel will automatically be under the 10 commandments.  However, God knows that even when Covenant Israel is resurrected from the dead, it would break the 10 commandments and fall away again.  In order to prevent that happening, and to give resurrected Covenant Israel everlasting life, God will make a New Covenant.  God's new covenant is that He will, by His grace, write the 10 commandments on all the hearts of resurrected Israel.  Israelites will then do by nature the things contained in the law.  The law will exist forever, but it will be redundant because Israel will be incapable of breaking the law.  The New Covenant will ensure that resurrected Covenant Israel will naturally have everlasting life, because the law will have been fulfilled.
This is a logical conclusion, arrived at by following the continuous, chronological story which flows through the whole bible.
 

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 11:19:28 PM »
There was no God given law from Adam to Moses, so no sin was charged.  Why, all of a sudden did God suddenly get into the legislation business?  The answer is simple!  God chose the assembly known as the children of Israel, to become the great everlasting nation of His everlasting, unconditional, good news promise to Abraham.  The 10 commandments God gave to the COI, were basically the 10 unity rules for becoming a great everlasting nation.  How do I know that?  The covenant nation of Israel became divided against it'self, and fell into non-existence.  The only way it could become divided against it'self(dis-united) is to have broken the 10 commandments.The 10 commandments were the only laws which God gave, and He gave them not to individuals, but to a nation, as a national standard which would lead to great everlasting nationhood.

I take it you have not read Leviticus?

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After the nation had fallen, God's law continued to exist, but the nation it was given to did not exist, so God's law applied to no one.  It is exactly the same for man now, as it was between Adam and Moses...no God given law applies to anyone.

Does this mean that I can sell my slaves for any price I went?

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Since God's promise of a great everlasting nation which will bless all nations, is everlasting and unconditional, it means that the fallen kingdom will have to be resurrected from the dead to fulfill the job for which God chose it.  Hence the good news of the coming kingdom.

Wait, is it unconditional or is it conditioned upon being resurrected?

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When the body of believers, which is being built for the Christ, becomes large enough to take and hold the land defined in God's promise, the Christ will appear and lead it to the resurrection of the kingdom of Covenant Israel from the dead, resurrected Covenant Israel will automatically be under the 10 commandments. 

Do you have a citation for this, or are you just making it up?

Quote
However, God knows that even when Covenant Israel is resurrected from the dead, it would break the 10 commandments and fall away again.  In order to prevent that happening, and to give resurrected Covenant Israel everlasting life, God will make a New Covenant.  God's new covenant is that He will, by His grace, write the 10 commandments on all the hearts of resurrected Israel.  Israelites will then do by nature the things contained in the law.  The law will exist forever, but it will be redundant because Israel will be incapable of breaking the law.  The New Covenant will ensure that resurrected Covenant Israel will naturally have everlasting life, because the law will have been fulfilled.
This is a logical conclusion, arrived at by following the continuous, chronological story which flows through the whole bible.

I don't see the logic of which you speak. Are you saying that the bible accurately predicts the future?
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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 08:34:01 AM »
Provoker, if yahweh is a "personal god" why do his believers so strongly believe that he cares about nations (man-made boundries) and groups of people (random bloodlines)? That'd be the opposite of a "personal god" and more inline with the mythological gods of the iron age.

Something that NEVER made any sense to me.

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 08:42:46 AM »
There are contradictory passages about upholding the OT law (the arguments tend to avoid that aspect but say Matthew meant man's law).

Here are some words from JC himself on the subject. I posted this yesterday coincidentally.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”  (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid."  (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..."  (2 Timothy 3:16)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21)

"Whoever curses father or mother shall die"  (Mark 7:10)

“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.”  (Matthew 15:4-7)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

“...the scripture cannot be broken.”  John 10:35

« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 08:44:21 AM by monkeymind »
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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 08:47:31 AM »
The very fact that it is contradictory is a good point. Here is a side by side version at Skeptics Annotated Bible:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/otlaw.html

Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2012, 09:16:59 AM »
Hi Turbo:
There was no God given law from Adam to Moses, so no sin was charged.  Why, all of a sudden did God suddenly get into the legislation business?  The answer is simple!  God chose the assembly known as the children of Israel, to become the great everlasting nation of His everlasting, unconditional, good news promise to Abraham. 
  That’s hilarious when looking at the Christian claim of “original sin”. 
Quote
The 10 commandments God gave to the COI, were basically the 10 unity rules for becoming a great everlasting nation.  How do I know that?  The covenant nation of Israel became divided against it'self, and fell into non-existence.  The only way it could become divided against it'self(dis-united) is to have broken the 10 commandments.  The 10 commandments were the only laws which God gave, and He gave them not to individuals, but to a nation, as a national standard which would lead to great everlasting nationhood.
Pity that you don’t realize that the laws of this god don’t stop at the first 10 at all.  It’s just Christians who find the rest inconvenient.  As has been already noted, all of the laws in Exodus and Leviticus are given to the same people, all with the same degree of authority as the first 10.   It seems you are yet one more Chrsitian who is pitifully ignorant of his own holy book. It’s sad, really. 
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After the nation had fallen, God's law continued to exist, but the nation it was given to did not exist, so God's law applied to no one.  It is exactly the same for man now, as it was between Adam and Moses...no God given law applies to anyone.
Since God's promise of a great everlasting nation which will bless all nations, is everlasting and unconditional, it means that the fallen kingdom will have to be resurrected from the dead to fulfill the job for which God chose it.  Hence the good news of the coming kingdom.
  Funny how the Jews disagree with you.  I dolove to watch Christians insist that they know the bible better than the Jews.  Your arrogance is so cute when it comes to imaginary friends!
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When the body of believers, which is being built for the Christ, becomes large enough to take and hold the land defined in God's promise, the Christ will appear and lead it to the resurrection of the kingdom of Covenant Israel from the dead, resurrected Covenant Israel will automatically be under the 10 commandments.
  Oh and we even get vague claims of the good ol’ “end times”.  So how many is “large enough”, Prov?  Sad how Christians are still claiming this nonsense will happen when each generation has claimed the same things and have failed in their sure thing.  How many more years will you have to wait, Prov?  Your supposed messiah has missed so many appointments that some Christians have to claim that he came back invisibly. :D
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However, God knows that even when Covenant Israel is resurrected from the dead, it would break the 10 commandments and fall away again.
Oooh, so you know that your imaginary friend “knows” this.  Just how do you know this?  I do like to watch Christians make up parts for their bible.  How are those boils doing?
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In order to prevent that happening, and to give resurrected Covenant Israel everlasting life, God will make a New Covenant.  God's new covenant is that He will, by His grace, write the 10 commandments on all the hearts of resurrected Israel.  Israelites will then do by nature the things contained in the law.
So, tell me, why didn’t your god just “write” this nonsense on the “hearts” of people several thousand years ago and not bother with supposed nonsense of killing people, sending himself to die for himself, etc.  Could have saved a lot of time.  Your god seems to be either an idiot or a sadist.  Or of course, it doesn’t exist at all, and all of this silliness is just more human myths.   
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The law will exist forever, but it will be redundant because Israel will be incapable of breaking the law.  The New Covenant will ensure that resurrected Covenant Israel will naturally have everlasting life, because the law will have been fulfilled.
This is a logical conclusion, arrived at by following the continuous, chronological story which flows through the whole bible.
  ROFL.  oh the acrobatics that Christians have to invent to claim their bible makes any sense.  There is no logical conclusion to be reached at all.  If so, then there is a similar logical conclusion that can be reached by the Greek myths and poof!  Athena, Zeus and Poseidon exist too!  The bible is a book of myth that has nothing to support it. 
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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2012, 09:21:37 AM »
The argument will go into a discussion about the law being given to the nation of Israel and  not to Christians. The law was abolished by Jesus. There are differences between ceremonial law and moral law, etc.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-law.html

Here is a rebuttal to Sam Harris' (A Letter to A Christian Nation):
http://www.allaboutworldview.org/old-testament-law.htm

Here is guy that falls on the side of OT still being valid:
http://reformed-theology.org/ice/newslet/be/be.05.79.htm


Quote
We must conclude that anyone whose attitude toward the Old Testament law is informed by the teaching and practice of the New Testament must maintain the law's full and continuing validity today. Those who, in the name of a distinctive "New Testament ethic," downgrade or ignore the Old Testament law are sternly warned by the Apostle John: "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (I John 2:4). In genuinely Biblical ethics the Old Testament will not be pitted against the New at any point.

The 7th Day Adventists may be of help regarding the question. Sorry I can't refer you to any place in particular...
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2012, 10:51:56 AM »
I love you guys! you always give me the perfect information and help me sort out my thoughts!  ;D

Offline Provoker

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2012, 06:33:17 PM »
Provoker, if yahweh is a "personal god" why do his believers so strongly believe that he cares about nations (man-made boundries) and groups of people (random bloodlines)? That'd be the opposite of a "personal god" and more inline with the mythological gods of the iron age.

Something that NEVER made any sense to me.
Hi link:
God is not a personal god.  Where did you get that idea?  Didn't you know that God is no respector of persons?

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 06:54:12 PM »
There was no God given law from Adam to Moses, so no sin was charged.  Why, all of a sudden did God suddenly get into the legislation business?  The answer is simple!  God chose the assembly known as the children of Israel, to become the great everlasting nation of His everlasting, unconditional, good news promise to Abraham.  The 10 commandments God gave to the COI, were basically the 10 unity rules for becoming a great everlasting nation.  How do I know that?  The covenant nation of Israel became divided against it'self, and fell into non-existence.  The only way it could become divided against it'self(dis-united) is to have broken the 10 commandments.The 10 commandments were the only laws which God gave, and He gave them not to individuals, but to a nation, as a national standard which would lead to great everlasting nationhood.

I take it you have not read Leviticus?
Hi DA:
Yup, I've read it all.  What's your point?
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After the nation had fallen, God's law continued to exist, but the nation it was given to did not exist, so God's law applied to no one.  It is exactly the same for man now, as it was between Adam and Moses...no God given law applies to anyone.

Does this mean that I can sell my slaves for any price I went?
Sounds good to me:-)
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Since God's promise of a great everlasting nation which will bless all nations, is everlasting and unconditional, it means that the fallen kingdom will have to be resurrected from the dead to fulfill the job for which God chose it.  Hence the good news of the coming kingdom.

Wait, is it unconditional or is it conditioned upon being resurrected?
God cannot make conditional promises.  An honest person who can see the future, cannot make conditional promises.  It's as simple as that:-)
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When the body of believers, which is being built for the Christ, becomes large enough to take and hold the land defined in God's promise, the Christ will appear and lead it to the resurrection of the kingdom of Covenant Israel from the dead, resurrected Covenant Israel will automatically be under the 10 commandments. 

Do you have a citation for this, or are you just making it up?
If by "citation" you mean "verse", I could probably find one, but I read the bible for it's story, not for it's verses:-)  What I am offering is a synopsis.
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However, God knows that even when Covenant Israel is resurrected from the dead, it would break the 10 commandments and fall away again.  In order to prevent that happening, and to give resurrected Covenant Israel everlasting life, God will make a New Covenant.  God's new covenant is that He will, by His grace, write the 10 commandments on all the hearts of resurrected Israel.  Israelites will then do by nature the things contained in the law.  The law will exist forever, but it will be redundant because Israel will be incapable of breaking the law.  The New Covenant will ensure that resurrected Covenant Israel will naturally have everlasting life, because the law will have been fulfilled.
This is a logical conclusion, arrived at by following the continuous, chronological story which flows through the whole bible.

I don't see the logic of which you speak. Are you saying that the bible accurately predicts the future?
No, that is not what I am saying.  What I am saying is that the bible contains a continuous logical story from beginning to end, so I'm simply synopsizing that logical story.
What do you see in my synopsis which is not logical?

Offline Iamrational

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 06:58:15 PM »
... but I read the bible for it's story, not for it's verses:-)


AKA... Cherry picking.

Offline Provoker

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2012, 07:04:05 PM »
There are contradictory passages about upholding the OT law (the arguments tend to avoid that aspect but say Matthew meant man's law).
There are contradictory passages about everything in the bible.  That's why I appeal to the story rather than to passages.
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Here are some words from JC himself on the subject. I posted this yesterday coincidentally.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”  (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid."  (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..."  (2 Timothy 3:16)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21)

"Whoever curses father or mother shall die"  (Mark 7:10)

“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.”  (Matthew 15:4-7)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

“...the scripture cannot be broken.”  John 10:35
Since there are an estimated 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing denominations, and any given verse may have as many different explanations as their are denominations, you will have to explain what you think these verses mean before I can comment:-)

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 07:08:24 PM »
There are contradictory passages about everything in the bible.  That's why I appeal to the story rather than to passages.

The story IS those passages.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2012, 07:11:47 PM »
There are contradictory passages about upholding the OT law (the arguments tend to avoid that aspect but say Matthew meant man's law).
There are contradictory passages about everything in the bible.  That's why I appeal to the story rather than to passages.
Quote

Here are some words from JC himself on the subject. I posted this yesterday coincidentally.
Since there are an estimated 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing denominations, and any given verse may have as many different explanations as their are denominations, you will have to explain what you think these verses mean before I can comment:-)

You made my point for me. What's left to comment on?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2012, 07:29:01 PM »
Since there are an estimated 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing denominations, and any given verse may have as many different explanations as their are denominations, you will have to explain what you think these verses mean before I can comment:-)

We're atheists. Most of think bible verses are just a bunch of made up crap. So we will be asking you to give us your version of what it means any time you haul one out. It does sound like you are less likely to do this than most christians that show up here. We'll be calling you on what we call "cherry picking"; choosing the stuff you like and ignoring the rest. Even if you use it as a reason to not pay attention to the book as anything but, as you call it, a story.

Welcome, by the way. I suspect we'll be butting heads soon, but that's why we're here, right?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Provoker

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2012, 07:31:15 PM »
Hi Turbo:
There was no God given law from Adam to Moses, so no sin was charged.  Why, all of a sudden did God suddenly get into the legislation business?  The answer is simple!  God chose the assembly known as the children of Israel, to become the great everlasting nation of His everlasting, unconditional, good news promise to Abraham. 
  That’s hilarious when looking at the Christian claim of “original sin”.
Not as hilarious as the Christian claim of "original sin"...LOL
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The 10 commandments God gave to the COI, were basically the 10 unity rules for becoming a great everlasting nation.  How do I know that?  The covenant nation of Israel became divided against it'self, and fell into non-existence.  The only way it could become divided against it'self(dis-united) is to have broken the 10 commandments.  The 10 commandments were the only laws which God gave, and He gave them not to individuals, but to a nation, as a national standard which would lead to great everlasting nationhood.
Pity that you don’t realize that the laws of this god don’t stop at the first 10 at all.  It’s just Christians who find the rest inconvenient.  As has been already noted, all of the laws in Exodus and Leviticus are given to the same people, all with the same degree of authority as the first 10.   It seems you are yet one more Chrsitian who is pitifully ignorant of his own holy book. It’s sad, really.
Don't be sad Turbo.  God wrote His laws on tablets of stone and Moses carried them down the mountain.  There are 613 Mitzvot laws.  Just how many times do you think Moses climbed that mountain?
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After the nation had fallen, God's law continued to exist, but the nation it was given to did not exist, so God's law applied to no one.  It is exactly the same for man now, as it was between Adam and Moses...no God given law applies to anyone.
Since God's promise of a great everlasting nation which will bless all nations, is everlasting and unconditional, it means that the fallen kingdom will have to be resurrected from the dead to fulfill the job for which God chose it.  Hence the good news of the coming kingdom.
  Funny how the Jews disagree with you.  I dolove to watch Christians insist that they know the bible better than the Jews.  Your arrogance is so cute when it comes to imaginary friends!
I have no idea what you are talking about regarding imaginary friends.  All my friends are real:-)  As far as the Jews are concerned, they don't even believe what they claim to believe, so whether they agree with me or not is not a problem to me...LOL
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When the body of believers, which is being built for the Christ, becomes large enough to take and hold the land defined in God's promise, the Christ will appear and lead it to the resurrection of the kingdom of Covenant Israel from the dead, resurrected Covenant Israel will automatically be under the 10 commandments.
  Oh and we even get vague claims of the good ol’ “end times”.  So how many is “large enough”, Prov?  Sad how Christians are still claiming this nonsense will happen when each generation has claimed the same things and have failed in their sure thing.  How many more years will you have to wait, Prov?  Your supposed messiah has missed so many appointments that some Christians have to claim that he came back invisibly. :D
I do believe that you are presuming rather than reading...LOL  When you invent the arguement you think I made, and then comment on it, it is either a strawman, or you were just not paying attention to what I said.  Not only that but I dare say that you have never ever ever heard anyone even suggest anything close to what I have said.  You are going to have to pay attention if you want to make comments which make any sense:-)
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However, God knows that even when Covenant Israel is resurrected from the dead, it would break the 10 commandments and fall away again.
Oooh, so you know that your imaginary friend “knows” this.  Just how do you know this?  I do like to watch Christians make up parts for their bible.  How are those boils doing?
I don't have any imaginary friends.  All my friends are real.  I'm not sure that you are actually reading what I write.  Are you reading someone else's posts and putting the answers under my posts?
By the way, I didn't say that I know this.  All I'm saying is that it is what the story of the bible says.  You can believe it or not, but at least make some comments which make me think you are actually reading my stuff...LOL
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In order to prevent that happening, and to give resurrected Covenant Israel everlasting life, God will make a New Covenant.  God's new covenant is that He will, by His grace, write the 10 commandments on all the hearts of resurrected Israel.  Israelites will then do by nature the things contained in the law.
So, tell me, why didn’t your god just “write” this nonsense on the “hearts” of people several thousand years ago and not bother with supposed nonsense of killing people, sending himself to die for himself, etc.  Could have saved a lot of time.  Your god seems to be either an idiot or a sadist.  Or of course, it doesn’t exist at all, and all of this silliness is just more human myths.
There you go, talking to yourself.  If you are trying to read my mind you are not doing very well...LOL  God is not involved with man.  When He finished creation He declared it good and sat down.  Anyone who thinks for himself can see that that is a metaphore meaning that God's plan did not extend past creation, and we are on our own.
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The law will exist forever, but it will be redundant because Israel will be incapable of breaking the law.  The New Covenant will ensure that resurrected Covenant Israel will naturally have everlasting life, because the law will have been fulfilled.
This is a logical conclusion, arrived at by following the continuous, chronological story which flows through the whole bible.
  ROFL.  oh the acrobatics that Christians have to invent to claim their bible makes any sense.  There is no logical conclusion to be reached at all.  If so, then there is a similar logical conclusion that can be reached by the Greek myths and poof!  Athena, Zeus and Poseidon exist too!  The bible is a book of myth that has nothing to support it.
What you, I, or anyone else thinks of the bible, is beside the point.  I'm not suggesting that you have to believe it, I'm just telling you what the story of the bible is.
Here is something to think about:  You don't have a clue about what I believe, and what I don't...LOL

Offline Historicity

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 07:34:35 PM »
Law in that verse is written with a capital L. Judging from christians' usual egocentricity towards their religion, it's talking about the Bible, not the "law of man".
No, it is not.  I thought you were joking but I scanned down and unfortunately you were not.

The New Testament was written in Greek.  The Book of Revelations shows signs (14:14) of having been written originally in a Semitic language and badly translated.

None of the ancient languages had either:

   Spaces between the words.
   Punctuation -- not even a period at the end of a sentence.
   Paragraph breaks.
   Lower case letters.

THEYWEREALLCAPITALSANDBECAUSETHEREWERENOSPACESTHEYWEREVERYHARDTOREADYOUSEETHATDONTYOUTH
EYALSOBROKEWORDSATTHEENDOFALINEHOWCANSOMEONEREADAJUMBLELIKETHISWHATTHEREADERHADTODOWAS
READITOUTLOUDORATLEASTSOTTOVOCEANDLISTENTOHISOWNVOICEANOUTSTANDINGTRICKOFJULIUSCAESAREWA
STHATLIKEAMODERNHECOULDREADSILENTLYHEWASONCEREADINGANOTESILENTLYINFRONTOFAPOLITICALOPPONE
NTCATOKNOWNASCATOTHEYOUNGERANDSMILEDCRAFTILYITWASALOVENOTEFROMCATOSSISTERANYONEELSEWOUL
DHAVEHADTOREADITOUTLOUDORMUTTERED

Aristophanes of Byzantium, chief librarian of the Library of Alexandria, had invented punctuation about 200 BC but samples of common writing from the period of the Bible showed it did not catch on quickly. "It wasn’t until the 2nd century AD that the accents and breathings appeared sporadically in the papyruses. The need for the diacritics arose from the gradual divergence between spelling and pronunciation."[1] The biggest boost it had was the death of spoken Latin in the 6th and 7th century CE.  For instance one writer trying to use Latin don't know the difference between "in monte" (=on a mountain) and "in montem" (=onto a mountain).  Still, all the writing was in Latin but very bad Latin.  We have Roman manuscripts from this time where someone has added dots to mark the spaces between the words.

In the dark ages a style of writing was used to save space on parchment and it was called minuscule.  basically it was lower case and a capital was only preserved at the beginning of a chapter or page. even christ was not capitalized.  see the lindesfarne gospels for that.  there were such oddities as spelling his title crist but using a modified chi-ro symbol to start it.

In the Renaissance the majuscule letters got their modern distinction as capitalization.

 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytonic_orthography
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 07:36:53 PM by Historicity »

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 07:36:22 PM »
Provoker:

Quote
You don't have a clue about what I believe, and what I don't...LOL

Well, let's start with the first clue of no clue as to what you believe:

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    When the body of believers, which is being built for the Christ, becomes large enough to take and hold the land defined in God's promise, the Christ will appear and lead it to the resurrection of the kingdom of Covenant Israel from the dead, resurrected Covenant Israel will automatically be under the 10 commandments.

Why do you think the narrative of the bible says this? Or is this from another source?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 07:38:51 PM by monkeymind »
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Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2012, 07:38:12 PM »
No, it is not.  I thought you were joking but I scanned down and unfortunately you were not.
<snip>

The translation is written with a capital L. I know the original had none of the things you mentioned.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Provoker

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2012, 07:43:53 PM »
There are contradictory passages about everything in the bible.  That's why I appeal to the story rather than to passages.

The story IS those passages.
Those passages are part of the story, but the story is the only context in which the passages can make sense.  That is why we read stories from the beginning to the end, and do not read arbitrarily selected passages and then think we understand the story.
The sign says:  Read the bible through in one year!!!  In the morning we will read some passages from the OT, and in the evening we will read some passages from the NT.  I can just imagine what kind of story anyone gets out of that...LOL

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2012, 07:47:02 PM »
Those passages are part of the story, but the story is the only context in which the passages can make sense.  That is why we read stories from the beginning to the end, and do not read arbitrarily selected passages and then think we understand the story.

So what you're saying is that just because Genesis says that YHWH created A&E before any other living creature and after every other living creature shouldn't get in the way of "the story"? Note that the story is, in fact, YHWH creating everything in a certain order.
Your brain must be severely damaged for what you just said to make sense to you.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Debating a christian about this verse. input appreciated
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2012, 07:51:40 PM »
There was no God given law from Adam to Moses, so no sin was charged.
...
This is a logical conclusion, arrived at by following the continuous, chronological story which flows through the whole bible.

Moses is born in Exodus.  Here are some quotes, some of them well known, from Genesis:
Quote
4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, "Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

31:36 And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? what is my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?

39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife:  how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

42:22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear?  therefore, behold, also his blood is required.

The Jewish rabbis say 7 Laws were given to Noah.