Author Topic: The roots of morals and virtue  (Read 374 times)

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Offline violatedsmurf80

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The roots of morals and virtue
« on: February 21, 2012, 09:28:57 AM »
I posed a question that states should the faith and morals of the president be part of the election or should it stick to the primary issues at hand with the country. A good family friend who is a christain stated "that the morals and virtue should always be in question and in our world morals and virtue are rooted in religious doctrine".

What would you guys consider the best way to reply to this question?
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 09:37:38 AM »
I think it is a  mistake to put faith and morals in the same question.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 09:37:53 AM »
A president upholds the constitution, not his or her personal moral or religious view. I would quote John F. Kennedy at her. Check out some of his relevant quotes from http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jfk.htm ... here are a couple of samples ...

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I would not look with favor upon a President working to subvert the First Amendment's guarantees of religious liberty ... Neither do I look with favor upon those who would work to subvert Article VI of the Constitution by requiring a religious test -- even by indirection.

 -- John F Kennedy, address to the Ministerial Association of Greater Houston, September 12, 1960, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

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Whatever one's religion in his private life may be, for the officeholder, nothing takes precedence over his oath to uphold the Constitution and all its parts -- including the First Amendment and the strict separation of church and state.
 -- John F Kennedy, Interview, Look, March 3, 1959, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
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Offline Dante

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 11:04:42 AM »
A good family friend who is a christain stated "that the morals and virtue should always be in question and in our world morals and virtue are rooted in religious doctrine".

So would your friend vote for and follow a Buddhist, Muslim, or Scientologist? Is there any sect of xianity for which (s)he would say that her statement was untrue?

Somehow, I doubt it.

Absolutely, one should have very high moral standards, methinks, to gain any elected office. Otherwise, you get what we have here today. Corrupt politicians. Strange how the vast majority are self-proclaimed xians. :o

But, since morals and virtue aren't rooted in any religious doctrine, religion should play no part in the voter's decision.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 12:01:03 PM »
A president upholds the constitution, not his or her personal moral or religious view. I would quote John F. Kennedy at her. Check out some of his relevant quotes from http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jfk.htm ... here are a couple of samples ...

Quote
I would not look with favor upon a President working to subvert the First Amendment's guarantees of religious liberty ... Neither do I look with favor upon those who would work to subvert Article VI of the Constitution by requiring a religious test -- even by indirection.

 -- John F Kennedy, address to the Ministerial Association of Greater Houston, September 12, 1960, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Quote
Whatever one's religion in his private life may be, for the officeholder, nothing takes precedence over his oath to uphold the Constitution and all its parts -- including the First Amendment and the strict separation of church and state.
 -- John F Kennedy, Interview, Look, March 3, 1959, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Kennedy was considered unelectable by many because he was catholic. He had to make it clear he wasn't going to be the hand puppet of the pope before people would consider voting for him. I remember that his religion was a huge issue at the time. Very similar to Romney and mormonism right now.

Christians do not own morality. They sport one of many versions, most of which are compatible with each other. Morality has social sources, and as researchers are finding out, morality also has biological sources. We humans have the ability to cooperate for genetic reasons as well as social ones.

The irony of course is that christians take credit for our biological propensities while denying evolution. Cute.

Christians drowned "witches" with exactly the same righteousness that they use today to claim that they are moral. And christians in Africa are burning witches in this century with the same glee. Once any group lays claim to moral rectitude and excludes external feedback, everything goes downhill no matter what group it is. Christians can lay claim to morals all they want, their history demonstrates the inherent flaws of any monoculture.

If this was 1511, every atheist on this forum would be in danger of being burned at the stake. I'm pretty sure the social progress made since then has been the product of multiple cultures and multiple belief (and nonbelief) systems, rather one group being really really good.

The christian treatment of native peoples around the world kind of excludes them from laying claim to perfection. And their  take on social issues such as abortion and homosexuality proves that they still ride their high horse and don't give a f*ck about who they trample.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 12:51:06 PM »
usually in America when the morals/religion comes up in politics its in regards to the "moral right"
just use the very plentiful examples of those people NOT following the things jebus told them to do (take care of poor, children, turn the other cheek, Prince of Peace (the right absolutely LOVES war) etc...

if that doesnt work, trust Gawd and sacrifice your friend on an alter in the woods...

Offline screwtape

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 01:01:41 PM »
I posed a question that states should the faith and morals of the president be part of the election or should it stick to the primary issues at hand with the country. A good family friend who is a christain stated "that the morals and virtue should always be in question and in our world morals and virtue are rooted in religious doctrine".

What would you guys consider the best way to reply to this question?

My reply would be I agree with him 50%.  I think morals matter.  And religious doctrine has adopted some moral ideas.  But morals do not come from religion and a person does not have to be religious to be moral.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 01:03:25 PM »
I posed a question that states should the faith and morals of the president be part of the election or should it stick to the primary issues at hand with the country. A good family friend who is a christain stated "that the morals and virtue should always be in question and in our world morals and virtue are rooted in religious doctrine".

What would you guys consider the best way to reply to this question?

well, if what she says is accurate, have her explain the differences between the "morals and virtue" of two Catholics, Newt Gingirich and Rick Santorum.  Or any of the vermin the GOP have running.  EAch is claiming to be the ideal Christain but they sure don't agree on much other than forcing their particular version of their religions on others and controlling people. 

The only problem with sayign that the president is to uphold the constitution is that the Constitution isn't the greatest document for clarity. 
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 01:43:33 PM »
The only problem with sayign that the president is to uphold the constitution is that the Constitution isn't the greatest document for clarity.

It ain't perfect, but the Constitution is a lot better than the bible, which only guarantees the right to keep and bear grudges.

p.s.  I know, I know, keep and bear arms is in the bill of rights, but it just felt good to say that.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 02:46:41 PM »
It ain't perfect, but the Constitution is a lot better than the bible, which only guarantees the right to keep and bear grudges.

p.s.  I know, I know, keep and bear arms is in the bill of rights, but it just felt good to say that.

and sell your daughter.  can't forget that   ;D
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 07:46:26 PM »
Thank for all the help I decided take parking places idea and expand.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Poseidon

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 09:57:22 PM »
Our nation is heavily populated with people who believe that morality is a requisite quality for elected officials.  Way too many of those people believe that the president has dictatorial power and that he or she can manage the nation and its laws to suit their slightest whim.  In short, The American body of voters consist of a discouragingly large proportion of dumb asses who flunked 9th grade civics class. 

I would not knowingly vote for a serial rapist or repeat arsonist. Is that counted as amoral behavior?. If so, then I would let morality be a determinant. If the candidate admitted to having smoked some pot (Clinton did but he did not inhale), or had lusted in his heart (Carter), or banged a few willing bimbos (Kennedy), then I would not see those trangressions as disqualifiers.  Morality is a subjective proposition and many christian ladies are shrewish about their interpretation of propriety.  We could defeat them in a debate but defeated or not, they will continue to believe as they have been persuaded to believe. 

Dont waste your intellect or your breath on the person you describe.

Offline bosey926

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Re: The roots of morals and virtue
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2012, 10:29:35 PM »
^^^I disagree Posiedon.  Your first two paragraphs are right on point and I don't disagree one bit, but the final one I must. 
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Don't waste your intellect or your breath on the person you describe.
     You see, what I have learned in my time here at the site is, that no matter how redundant and/or annoying the repetitive process of explaining why Yahweh/God doesn't exist to the common American is, you shouldn't focus solely on that aspect of it; rather you should place more of your attention on the successes of the site and of the site's full reach.  As in this possible instance with the OP. 
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In short, The American body of voters consist of a discouragingly large proportion of dumb asses who flunked 9th grade civics class.
^^^Even though this is likely true, we don't know whether its the case in the instance of the person in reference of the OP.  All I'm saying is realism, not pessimism, or optimism.