Author Topic: "For God so loved the world ...  (Read 568 times)

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Offline Schizoid

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"For God so loved the world ...
« on: February 17, 2012, 10:22:35 PM »
that whoever does not believe in Him shall suffer eternal damnation and torture."

I said this the other day to my supervisor/coworker.  He is a devout Christian who tries his best to walk the walk but like most devout Christians he has to find ways to explain things away in order to try and hold the Christian story together.  He is a nice guy but he is fervently convinced that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior is damned to Hell.  I said that to him when it occurred to me that is the flipside of what John 3:16 is saying, but certainly you never hear it phrased that way.

My coworker chuckled at that and admitted that it was true (as he believes, but he also believes in predestination in that god already knows who is going to be saved and who is not.  It's too bad that god doesn't pass on that tidbit of information because it certainly would save a lot effort and annoyance.

Of course it will be said by Christians that everyone has free will and a choice to accept Jesus or to reject him.  Such a deal...accept Jesus and you go to heaven, do not accept him and you will suffer eternal damnation and torture.  Wow, how could anyone pass up such a deal:  "do what I want you to do or else I will torture you forever and ever.  It's your choice though."

Given the parameters of that "deal" it does not seem to be much of a choice.  Just think, Christians offer this kind of choice to their children.  I can remember that happening and the pressure was intense.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 10:31:29 PM »
And the irony of course is that the people who believe that go through life in fear mode and try to do the right thing for the wrong reasons. And their lives end up sucking. Then they die and that's it.

We die and that's it too. But without the artificial pressures. The real ones are bad enough.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline wright

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 10:46:07 PM »
When I first became a believer, I went through a period of being terrified of hell, the prospect of being damned. That and chronic depression is not a good combination.

Fortunately, I was soon able to rationalize, cherry-pick and compartmentalize away from the idea, while creating my personal denomination through the liberal use of SPAG. As I read and reread the Bible, I realized just how much I had to disregard as "metaphor" and "irrelevant" to make my particular interpretation of Christianity work... that was the beginning of the end.

Tossing out the whole concept of hell was one of the immediate benefits of atheism. Not going back to that, no sir.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Schizoid

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 11:08:39 PM »
When I first became a believer, I went through a period of being terrified of hell, the prospect of being damned. That and chronic depression is not a good combination.

Fortunately, I was soon able to rationalize, cherry-pick and compartmentalize away from the idea, while creating my personal denomination through the liberal use of SPAG. As I read and reread the Bible, I realized just how much I had to disregard as "metaphor" and "irrelevant" to make my particular interpretation of Christianity work... that was the beginning of the end.

Tossing out the whole concept of hell was one of the immediate benefits of atheism. Not going back to that, no sir.

To keep the whole Christian facade intact a believer has to be good at cherry picking and explaining things away or ultimately using that tried and true favorite, "It's a mystery". 

Once a Christian starts to honestly examine their faith and to question that faith, it all starts to fall apart.  Like in "The Matrix" when Neo stops the bullest and examines one in midair and then the rest of the bullets fall to the floor.  One cannot honestly examine god and the Bible too closely because they don't hold up to close scrutiny.

There is no spoon, just as there is no god.

Offline Boots

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 11:17:02 PM »
To keep the whole Christian facade intact a believer has to be good at cherry picking and explaining things away or ultimately using that tried and true favorite, "It's a mystery". 

Yes--and htis is yet another of those things that steams my cheese.  These folks claim that morality comes from the bible.  Yet they cherry-pick out of thebible and discard or explain away the things they find morally repugnant--and I guarantee that everyone can find SOMEthing morally repugnant in it.  They don't even realize that they're using their own filters to do this; if the bible was truly the source of their morality they'd be defining their morality by it, not applying their own filter to it.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline Schizoid

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 11:36:48 PM »
These folks claim that morality comes from the bible.

My Christian coworker claims that all morality, even the morality of the atheist, comes from god.  So even as an atheist god gets the credit for your morality.  God gets a "heads  I win, tails I win" proposition.  Such a deal.


Offline Boots

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 12:02:38 AM »
My Christian coworker claims that all morality, even the morality of the atheist, comes from god.  So even as an atheist god gets the credit for your morality.  God gets a "heads  I win, tails I win" proposition.  Such a deal.

Huh.  Which god, I wonder?  Maybe I should be thanking Zeus for my morality!!
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline Poseidon

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2012, 12:17:34 AM »
Sounds like your friend is way off the deep end. It is unlikely that you could reason with him about anything that even remotely questions the validity of his beliefs. He has an army of like minded sheeple who reinforce his beliefs, and you are only one.   How could you possibly be right while all those others are wrong?   &) Let him languish in his comfortable little cocoon. Self imposed ignorance is bliss for some.

Yeah, having to exist in the same atmosphere with guys like that steams my cheese too.

Offline Schizoid

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2012, 01:21:50 AM »
Sounds like your friend is way off the deep end. It is unlikely that you could reason with him about anything that even remotely questions the validity of his beliefs. He has an army of like minded sheeple who reinforce his beliefs, and you are only one.   How could you possibly be right while all those others are wrong?   &) Let him languish in his comfortable little cocoon. Self imposed ignorance is bliss for some.

Yeah, having to exist in the same atmosphere with guys like that steams my cheese too.

Well, firstly, he is not my friend, he is my coworker, actually my supervisor.  As a schizoid I avoid the whole friend thing.  Also, I work at a homeless shelter, a Christian homeless shelter.  You know, the one with the red kettles at Christmastime. 

Ironically, there are all flavors there: typical mainline Christians, Catholics, Mormons, JWs, and even atheists.  And all of us are treated with respect and how we all get along is not about religion or lack of it, but how we treat one another and how we treat the homeless and those in need. 

Nobody gets preachy or in-your-face about religion.  I've never worked anywhere in the 40 years I've been working where I have been treated with more respect by not only my coworkers, but by my bosses and the residents at the shelter as well.  I get called "sir" every day and I'm the janitor (it's not because I look old either).

I don't agree with this particular coworker regarding religion and he does not agree with me although he is not really sure where I am at regarding religion.  He knows that years ago I attended church regularly and that I have read and studied the Bible and that I am someone with whom he can have theological discussions.  I enjoy these discussions and I can work on him along the edges and get him to think which if I got in his face with, "I'm an atheist and I think your beliefs are BS" would never happen.  Besides, I have to work closely with him each day.

I am an atheist but I am not bitter about Christianity or having been a Christian.  Just as with all people there are Christians who stink as human beings, who are consumed with hate and bigotry toward various groups of people, who in the context of Christianity Jesus would have nothing to do with them since they are entirely un-Christlike while claiming to be Christians.  But being an atheist does not define who I am as a person no more than I have ever allowed what I do to make money define me as a person.

Fortunately, my coworker is nothing like that.  He is a decent guy and I've never seen any bigotry or hate displayed by him and he treats everyone with respect.  Even though we have religious discussions I in no way want to do anything to destroy his faith because he credits it with bringing his life around and his family together in this past year.  I don't make myself taller by tearing him down and my life is not defined by being an atheist.  People make their own choices and as long as that makes them happy and they respect my choices, then I'm good with that.  I have no chip on my shoulder regarding faith and it's not my life's mission to destroy religion.

Besides, being schizoid that all sounds like too much work to me.

Offline atheola

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2012, 07:17:44 AM »
They start kids off with Jesus lite, Santa and the threat of no toys on judgement morning, but as most kids now learn even if they become holy terrorists to mom and dad they still vet the xbox and barbie the crack ho so by the time they reach adolescents they lay the heavy shit on them about burning forever if they dont buy the new and improved version of Santa and somewhere in the backs of their minds they think "Santa" bas the exact same letters as *ding* SATAN!
The moral of the story kids...pick up your fuckin toys and clean your rooms or you'll burn in hell..
Talk about mixed messages.
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2012, 08:54:56 AM »
My coworker chuckled at that and admitted that it was true (as he believes, but he also believes in predestination in that god already knows who is going to be saved and who is not.  It's too bad that god doesn't pass on that tidbit of information because it certainly would save a lot effort and annoyance).

This is so true. Even if Biblegod did hint at predestination somewhere, it would be just another ridiculous contradiction to evangelism.

And this:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Christians can't see that this is just another fucking sales pitch that was clearly created by a man? An only begotten son is something that is(on average) the most important thing to a man. And, the more primitive the man, the more important the only begotten son becomes in relation to whatever the 2nd most important thing is. "I lost my only begotten son in the war."

Thanks, God, for pointing out the extremely important fact that you gave your only begotten Son. Yeah, I heard the sad news about the doctor informing you that you were unable to produce any more Sons.

Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: "For God so loved the world ...
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2012, 09:38:49 AM »
To keep the whole Christian facade intact a believer has to be good at cherry picking and explaining things away or ultimately using that tried and true favorite, "It's a mystery".

Extreme dumb-fuck in just one of countless sick fucking cults: "The Chosen One had an amazing dream last night. God spoke to him about the importance of sowing his seed. Now he is in the next room banging the shit out of my 11-year-old daughter. The Lord works in mysterious ways!"
Enough with your bullshit.
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