Author Topic: Christians and their annoying questions  (Read 4243 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2012, 12:22:04 AM »
Sort of like dodging the reality that science can't explain the first action in the whole subsequent sequence of action and reaction
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2012, 02:43:20 AM »
Sort of like dodging the reality that science can't explain the first action in the whole subsequent sequence of action and reaction

You're right, MM, we don't yet know what caused the big bang, and I don't think anyone here has dodged that fact. But why come to the conclusion that a god must be behind it? Isn't it OK to just say we don't know, for now? Even if there is a god, why do you think he needs to be worshipped? The Xian notion of god makes him out to be an insecure megalomaniac. Do you really think (rhetorical - I know that you do, for whatever freaky-ass reason) that a being capable of creating this entire universe would need to have humans worship it? Would you need to have the ants in your kid's ant farm worship you because you built their world?

Please understand, the difference between an ant and a man is far less than the difference between any creator of all that is and a man.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2012, 03:29:16 AM »
DF, my comment was in direct response to Kin Hell's suggestion that Christians dodge the fact that we don't know how God came to exist. I should have quoted it properly I guess.

And if proponents of the big bang say they don't know what caused it..yet, then so can Christians say we don't know where God came from...yet.
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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2012, 03:30:23 AM »
And if proponents of the big bang say they don't know what caused it..yet, then so can Christians say we don't know where God came from...yet.

Of course you can. Once you've proven that your god actually exists. What you can't say is that it caused the Big Bang.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2012, 03:48:04 AM »
What we seem to have is an "unknown" that was the first cause in the subsequent cause and effect chain. Christians claim that "unknown" is God. We can't prove it, but at the very worst its a theory, right? Seems to me those who believe the world self-created don't even have a theory as to how.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2012, 04:01:11 AM »
What we seem to have is an "unknown" that was the first cause in the subsequent cause and effect chain. Christians claim that "unknown" is God. We can't prove it, but at the very worst its a theory, right? Seems to me those who believe the world self-created don't even have a theory as to how.

Of course those who believe the world self-created don't have a theory. That notion is just silly. How can something willfully create itself when it's incapable of having a will in the first place? It's almost as silly as calling a being by its designation; akin to calling your friends and family "Human" rather than using their names. But I digress.
Your "first cause" proposition has the assumption of a first cause. Have you ever considered that maybe there was no cause?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2012, 04:09:50 AM »
No, I haven't. Seems like a hard sell.
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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2012, 04:19:51 AM »
No, I haven't. Seems like a hard sell.

And yet your guess[1] requires either an infinite sequence of causes or no cause whatsoever.
 1. I'd call it a "theory" or even "hypothesis", but it is none of those things.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline kin hell

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2012, 04:46:34 AM »
DF, my comment was in direct response to Kin Hell's suggestion that Christians dodge the fact that we don't know how God came to exist. I should have quoted it properly I guess.

And if proponents of the big bang say they don't know what caused it..yet, then so can Christians say we don't know where God came from...yet.

...with all due respect mm, science is working towards understanding what went on, and prior to discovering, testing and verifying (to the best that anything can be "verified") that understanding which they seek, science only says, "we don't know".

Theism meanwhile isn't working towards anything, having already discovered the truth.
It doesn't check, test or verify anything, being inherently unable to.
It doesn't even feel the  need to test its suppositions.

And given that absolute lack of reality (beyond feelings and irrational belief systems) what does theism do?

It not only claims to know something science admits to not knowing (ie where/how the big bang), but it decrees awareness of a being whose scale complexity ability and attributes far overshadow our measly universe, a being of such staggering universality and essence, that not one solitary skerrik of it can be examined in any way (beyond feelings and irrational belief systems).


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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2012, 05:50:46 AM »
What we seem to have is an "unknown" that was the first cause in the subsequent cause and effect chain. Christians claim that "unknown" is God. We can't prove it, but at the very worst its a theory, right?

No, because if it's an unknown, anyone can say that it's anything.  That means it's not a theory; it's not even a hypothesis.  If a Christian can say it was their deity, the proponent of any other religion can also say that it was their deity -- or deities -- with the same amount of evidentiary support (i.e., none).  Saying "Yahweh did it" is no more meaningful than saying "Fred did it".

Quote
Seems to me those who believe the world self-created don't even have a theory as to how.

That does not mean that anyone who has a theory is automatically correct, or even on the right track to being correct.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Sun's size, distance, and energy output were all known pretty accurately.  One thing that nobody could figure out was how an object that size could be putting out as much energy as it was, or how it could be as old as it was.  If the sun were a solid lump of coal, for example, it would be completely burned out in a few thousand years or so.  This was a huge puzzle, and it had everyone stumped.

Analogous to your statements about the Big Bang, the competing viewpoints at that time could just as easily have been:

Science:  "We have no idea how the Sun could be generating this much energy."
Religion:  "God is doing it."

And yet, any religious believer expressing that viewpoint[1] would today be known to be wrong, due to the discovery of nuclear fusion.
 1. And although I don't know enough about the history of this problem to be sure, I'd be willing to be a year's pay that there were, indeed, preachers who insisted that it was the case.  After all, we do know that it was the case with lightning.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2012, 09:41:15 AM »
No evidence to support them?  We have evidence all around us.  That's the point.  We use this principle in solving a crime.  You may see evidence as a bloody knife, or a human hair, or a messed up crime scene and conclude..."Something bad happened here"  Were you there?  Did you see the crime?  No.  But you see the effects of the crime.  Nobody would conclude, "Nothing happened here, the wind must have blown this blood onto the knife because the door was left open".  That is absurd.  A creation ALWAYS requires a creator.  Better yet, a design requires a designer.  The hummingbird evolved?  Can we go there?
   
So which god was the creator?  You see, rockv, each religion claims this that one can see “evidence all around us”.  Show me that your god created the universe. Where and what is the evidence that supports your claim?  Why wasn’t it the gods of the Chinese pantheon? The Egyptian one?   

and yes a hummingbird evolved.  Considering your ignorance, do you want me to say that the hummingbird is the sun in disguise like the Maya believed?  Is the hummingbird one of a pair of star crossed lovers according to the Jatibonicu Taino Tribal Nation?  The Chayma people think that hummingbirds are the souls of the dead, is that the story we should believe?
Quote
Yes.  Natural ocurrence did create all you said.  The Biblical account of Creation and the Flood will answer your questions.  Before the flood, there was no rain.  This is why we had humans living nearly 1,000 yrs.  The world was a different place, very humid, and vegetative.  Rain came, the flood came, and changed everything.  Tectonic plates moved and mountains rose up, and with all the water flowing and receding, we find the Grand Canyon....the best evidence for a monster flood.  Check it out.
And more ignorance from you.  The bible account of caretion and the flood is just one more myth.  No evidence again for your bible lies.  It’s hysterical that you want to claim that there was magically no rain.  My my, how did Noah and those people live?  No evidence for your lies about the earth being “very humid and vegetative”.  Seems that you are one more person who believes in the idiotic canopy theory: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/canopy.html  .  Sorry, but again your fellow creationist have told lies.  Their and your ignorance about simple physics shows itself again.  It’s so cute to see creationists trying to use real science to support their lies.  No, rockv, tectonics doesn’t work like that.  Your claims are simply “last Thursdayism”, the delusion that your god hid all of the evidence of such utter nonsense, so we may as well decide that your god created the world last Thursday and we only think we remember our lives before it.     

Oh and I love this little bit of nonsense from MM.
And if proponents of the big bang say they don't know what caused it..yet, then so can Christians say we don't know where God came from...yet.
  what BS.  poor MM, can’t admit that Christians don’t believe that their god had a origin so they get stuck with their attempts at special pleading. 
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2012, 01:05:54 PM »
No evidence to support them?  We have evidence all around us.  That's the point.  We use this principle in solving a crime.  You may see evidence as a bloody knife, or a human hair, or a messed up crime scene and conclude..."Something bad happened here"  Were you there?  Did you see the crime?  No.  But you see the effects of the crime.  Nobody would conclude, "Nothing happened here, the wind must have blown this blood onto the knife because the door was left open".  That is absurd.  A creation ALWAYS requires a creator.  Better yet, a design requires a designer.  The hummingbird evolved?  Can we go there?
   
So which god was the creator?  You see, rockv, each religion claims this that one can see “evidence all around us”.  Show me that your god created the universe. Where and what is the evidence that supports your claim?  Why wasn’t it the gods of the Chinese pantheon? The Egyptian one?   

I'm glad someone caught this. He claimed the evidence "is all around us," but what's the point if he cannot prove which of the thousands of gods that created the universe and the Earth, which one really did it? After all, Amen-Ra, Ishtar, Kirin, Tiamat, and the Annunaki were here a long time before El, YHWH and Jesus ever were. His blather may as well be seen as thus:
The sun exists proves Ra exists.
Life exists proves Ishtar exists.
The seasons changing proves Persephone, Ceres and Hades exists.
That People die proves Pluto exists..

after all, the existence is all around us. Rockv, prove your god is a real god and not just an upstart wipper-snapper that rebelled against his parents.

rockv12,

If you caught the bacteria that causes leprosy today, would you take a scientifically proven antibiotic or would you take the biblically proscribed pigeon sacrifice to cure yourself?

??? Pardon?

You didn't know that the All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Powerful god actually left a perscription to cure leprosy? Seriously, if you contracted it, would you rather cast your lot in with a fallible, limited human or with your god? It consists of sacrificing 2 pigeons and wiping blood on your cheeks or something like that. Is god's cure hogwash or fact? If it was so reliable/infallible, why were people still trying to find a cure thousands of years later?

If you suspected your spouse of cheating on you, would you use the magic potion in Numbers 5 that he "gave us" so you can know beyond a shadow-of-doubt wether they are or not? 

Online One Above All

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2012, 01:20:08 PM »
Guys, I just wish to point out that the only god is Me. I'm the one rockv12 is referring to. You have evidence of My existence (this post and thousands like it) and My power (creation, which I totally created).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2012, 02:32:32 PM »
Guys, I just wish to point out that the only god is Me. I'm the one rockv12 is referring to. You have evidence of My existence (this post and thousands like it) and My power (creation, which I totally created).

okay, Lucifer, what do I have to do for you to make sure my husband gets this new job he's interviewing for?  ;D  What are your commandments so that we know how to live our lives?   ;D
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Online One Above All

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2012, 03:01:18 PM »
okay, Lucifer, what do I have to do for you to make sure my husband gets this new job he's interviewing for?  ;D

Pray several times every day. If he doesn't get it, don't worry. It's all part of the Grand Design.

What are your commandments so that we know how to live our lives?   ;D

Don't do drugs, don't drink large amounts of alcohol, don't have unprotected sex unless you're trying to get pregnant and both you and your partner are STD-free, don't run with scissors, don't sit too close to the TV... In short, don't be an idiot. Simple enough.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline atheola

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2012, 05:47:41 PM »
...and DON'T climb wayyy up in the tallest tree in the county less ye fall down, break thy neck, poke thee eye out and get pneumonia.  :angel:
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2012, 09:21:20 PM »
rockv12,

If you caught the bacteria that causes leprosy today, would you take a scientifically proven antibiotic or would you take the biblically proscribed pigeon sacrifice to cure yourself?

??? Pardon?

What??  Haven't you read the bible??

I'll point you to the relevant verses. Look up:

Leviticus 14:2-52

After you read it, answer the question honestly, which would you turn to in order to cure your own leprosy?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Tero

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2012, 09:28:32 PM »
No, I haven't. Seems like a hard sell.
Man has been seeing causes and purposes for eons.
Wind rain and rain must have been caused.
Thus we have been interpreting nonliving objects in terms of man. Or at least some sort of Superman. God.

But sorry, now we know too much.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #105 on: March 14, 2012, 10:39:06 PM »
So today i've been asked one of those simple questions today by a faitful christian saying: "Which came first, the chicken or the egg"? So i start to explain that through evolution and abiogenesis the chicken was formed through the cycle of evolution which later on would have the ability to reproduce other chickens through the egg. What are your thoughts and opinioins?

The Rooster came first. Then the Hen. Then the egg.

Offline atheola

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2012, 03:46:09 AM »
Weee..just like buybull-land..the hen was ripped painfully from the roosters rib cage...just for sufferings sake.. Sufffferin succotash! There's your answer. :laugh:
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Offline ungod

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2012, 06:49:02 AM »
So today i've been asked one of those simple questions today by a faitful christian saying: "Which came first, the chicken or the egg"? So i start to explain that through evolution and abiogenesis the chicken was formed through the cycle of evolution which later on would have the ability to reproduce other chickens through the egg. What are your thoughts and opinioins?

The Rooster came first. Then the Hen. Then the egg.

Fossil evidence? (No gaps, please.)
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Offline Dante

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2012, 07:22:29 AM »
So today i've been asked one of those simple questions today by a faitful christian saying: "Which came first, the chicken or the egg"? So i start to explain that through evolution and abiogenesis the chicken was formed through the cycle of evolution which later on would have the ability to reproduce other chickens through the egg. What are your thoughts and opinioins?

The Rooster came first. Then the Hen. Then the egg.

Fossil evidence? (No gaps, please.)

I'm pretty sure ILY was making a sexual joke.  ;)
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians and their annoying questions
« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2012, 10:17:09 AM »
What??  Haven't you read the bible??

I'll point you to the relevant verses. Look up:

Leviticus 14:2-52

After you read it, answer the question honestly, which would you turn to in order to cure your own leprosy?

I really like how in my translation states in verse 12, a guilt offering. It's as if getting a skin disease is a sin in of itself. What is the person that got the microbes guilty of? Oh, right, if you get sick, you OBVIOUSLY sinned even if no one knows what it is you did. So... GUILTY!