Author Topic: Burn or Bury?  (Read 8068 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2012, 06:16:09 PM »
Cremation and burial are superstitious practices, wasteful and useless.

Superstitious?  My memories of my family are not superstitious.  If something happens to my wife or children, forgive me if I don't immediately shove them in a meat grinder and sprinkle them over the garden.

I hope this comment was just poorly constructed, and that you aren't actually so callused to love.

Now, now - that's a stupid-assed strawman and doesn't deserve a response!

/sarcasm
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Offline pingnak

Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #117 on: February 29, 2012, 12:05:28 AM »
SO much more caring to burn them to ashes, or let them liquefy in a box.  As long as you don't have to watch it, any old disposal method will do, once you've said your buh-byes.

Maybe just something like this favorite old web classic! 

Four Animals, One Grinder
http://robert-lindsay.blogspot.com/2009/10/four-animals-one-grinder.html

That's a 'Muffin Monster' type grinder verus several large animals at a rendering facility.  Mega-icky, if you don't have the stomach for watching a whole dead [calf, pig, cow, full-grown horse] chewed up by a giant machine.  Just sing 'My Little Pony' for the last bit.  I bet that horse was some girl's favorite, that she rode every day.  But you can't just keep it around after it starts stinkin', no matter how much you loved it.

If you have an even stronger stomach, you can watch various human bodies rot in time lapse.  This will give you much worse nightmares than the animal eating machine.  So please don't watch, if you're prone to that sort of thing.
http://www.liveleak.com/browse?q=decomposition


Offline pingnak

Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #118 on: February 29, 2012, 01:11:29 AM »

Offline pingnak


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #120 on: February 29, 2012, 02:04:09 AM »
I think we can safely say this thread is dead. Dead dead dead. Burn it, bury it, grind it, let it rot. Won't matter. We have descended right past Nazi references to videos of rotting bodies.  Can't go lower. Ding dong, the thread is dead. 8)
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Offline pingnak

Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #121 on: February 29, 2012, 02:39:25 AM »

Offline pingnak

Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #122 on: February 29, 2012, 02:40:45 AM »

Offline pingnak

Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2012, 02:21:06 AM »
Oh wait!  I found something WORSE than any snuff films!


Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2012, 10:53:43 AM »
But assuming we are agreed that your options ARE the most logical and rational.....how do we get them into the wider consciousness?  Is now even the time?

Passing laws banning metal caskets, embalming, and concrete tombs would be a start. In China they've banned burial altogether, everyone is cremated except for some in the countryside where nobody is enforcing the laws. There was some resistance at first, but most people understand that it's wasteful. Today it's just the accepted norm.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2012, 11:13:04 AM »
Passing laws banning metal caskets, embalming, and concrete tombs would be a start. In China they've banned burial altogether, everyone is cremated except for some in the countryside where nobody is enforcing the laws. There was some resistance at first, but most people understand that it's wasteful. Today it's just the accepted norm.
China also has almost a billion people in it, in a country the size of the continental 48 states.  Not to mention that they have a millennium-long tradition of obedience from the lower classes to the dictates of the country's rulers, whether they're party leaders or emperors.  Somehow, I don't see your idea flying all that well in a country like America.

Have you bothered to consider the logistics of what you're suggesting?  Bodies start to rot very quickly after someone dies.  As in, the process has already started within hours.  Embalming is not intended to keep bodies from rotting indefinitely, just to delay the process long enough for the funeral and burial.  I don't really care whether you think burial is a waste of time or not, you don't have the right to dictate what a family does or doesn't do to honor their dead, certainly not just because it isn't expedient enough.

Now, if you want to try to convince people to adopt your idea, well, that's fine.  But you might want to work on your manner, because I can guarantee that you're not going to convince anyone as long as you think that the "waste" of resources involved in burials is more important than how the family feels about it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 11:49:22 AM by jaimehlers »

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2012, 11:35:00 AM »

<snip>
Are you saying that it would be impossible for families to grieve properly if the dead were not embalmed in formaldehyde, buried in an expensive coffin then encased in concrete forever?

1: That is one out of dozens of burial methods.

1. I will remind you, I was specifically saying that all the wood, steel, bronze, copper, concrete, and formaldehyde used in modern burials is wasteful, in reply to Velkyn's post (#93). By stating that there are other burial methods, aren't you just reinforcing my point that that waste is unnecessary?

2: Even that doesn't last forever.

Only a few hundred thousand years or more. A blink of an eye in geological terms, but since I'm a human I consider that to be a long damn time. The entire human race will cease to exist in any recognizable form by the time these concrete-encased metal coffins have completely decomposed. But no, not forever. You got me on that one. /eyeroll

3: Some people might not be able to get over it without that level of preservation. That's what you're not factoring into your "reasonable" suggestion. Your feelings are not shared throughout the human race.

I've already said this. Twice. So... yeah. I know that. Or more accurately I know most people believe that, but it is not true.

Your claim is that some people emotionally need to preserve the dead, they can't handle the idea of their loved ones decomposing. But what if these people grew up in a society that had no preservation traditions, perhaps a society that set their dead afloat down the river with a mouthfull of strawberries to bribe the fairies to fly the spirit up to the top of the tallest mountain? My theory is that they would be just fine with that, because it's tradition. I bet if you suggested burial or cremation to these people they would think you insane.

So no. We don't need burial, or cremation. We don't need to preserve corpses. What we need is to change our traditions.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2012, 11:44:08 AM »
Cremation and burial are superstitious practices, wasteful and useless.

Superstitious?  My memories of my family are not superstitious.  If something happens to my wife or children, forgive me if I don't immediately shove them in a meat grinder and sprinkle them over the garden.

I hope this comment was just poorly constructed, and that you aren't actually so callused to love.

Now, now - that's a stupid-assed strawman and doesn't deserve a response!

/sarcasm

I said cremation and burial are superstitious. He said memories of his family are not superstitious. Those two statements are not analogous. They are completely different.
I said we should remember the dead, take time to grieve, mourn, hold funerals and wakes before disposing of the body in a way that does not use resources, preferably turning the body into a resource. He compared that to "immediately shoving them in a meat grinder".

Not a strawman?

I'm not sure you understand what a strawman arguement is. Which is funny, because you use them all the time.
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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2012, 11:53:01 AM »
1. I will remind you, I was specifically saying that all the wood, steel, bronze, copper, concrete, and formaldehyde used in modern burials is wasteful, in reply to Velkyn's post (#93). By stating that there are other burial methods, aren't you just reinforcing my point that that waste is unnecessary?

Waste is unnecessary, yes. That's its definition and is not in question here. What's in question is your unsupported assertion that burial rituals are unnecessary and wasteful.

Only a few hundred thousand years or more. A blink of an eye in geological terms, but since I'm a human I consider that to be a long damn time. The entire human race will cease to exist in any recognizable form by the time these concrete-encased metal coffins have completely decomposed. But no, not forever. You got me on that one. /eyeroll

And do you really think that that coffin will remain buried for all that time? Remember that to form emotional connections with other people requires actually knowing them. Do you really think that people will care about the remains of their great-great-great-great grandparents?

I've already said this. Twice. So... yeah. I know that. Or more accurately I know most people believe that, but it is not true.

What you think supports your claim that people will adapt to something if we remove the alternatives is flawed, as was pointed out by jaimehlers. In a country where the traditions include blind obedience the dictator in charge, people are not adapting. They're just following their traditions.

<snip>
So no. We don't need burial, or cremation. We don't need to preserve corpses. What we need is to change our traditions.

So yes. We need burial, or cremation. We need to preserve corpses. Because people will want to honor their dead in a way that's meaningful to them. Maybe that way is based on tradition. Doesn't matter. You need to deal with it.
In addition, this part is just a non-sequitur. "If people had been raised differently they wouldn't think the way they do now, so people are thinking the wrong way."
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 12:24:27 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2012, 11:53:58 AM »
Assuming that you could get local, state or federal lawmakers to go ahead and pass such a law is a pretty hefty example of wishful thinking. One need only look at the level of discourse on this forum to understand the magnitude of opposition such legislation would face from the public at large. It would take a massively coordinated and well funded campaign to convince enough people that it's a good idea.

Before I deployed to Iraq I started really thinking about my mortality and how I wanted my body to be handled in case I died. I really really really did not want to pay a funeral home to pump my body full of chemicals and slap my body in a vault. I want my body to be returned to the earth with little fan fare and no barriers between me and the worms.

I was under the impression that the only legal choices one had were either cremation or burial services. What I discovered was very refreshing.

In the state of Tennessee all I needed to do was have my death reported to the local authority in order to have my body examined and death confirmed with the issue of a death certificate. After that it was just basic stuff about what I couldn't have done with my body. I couldn't have my wife just dump me on the side of the road or on someone else's property or hire a taxidermist to stuff and mount me for display.

I COULD be buried on family property.

Of course there are certain zoning laws which affect this choice but if one is so inclined and prepares ahead of time, it's an easy enough hurdle to jump. My problem was convincing my family to go in on a land purchase to be designated as a family burial ground.

Perhaps an environmentally motivated campaign to raise awareness about the waste of resources and materials combined with a little education about our options would go a long way in changing our attitudes about how we dispose of the dead?

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2012, 12:03:40 PM »
Passing laws banning metal caskets, embalming, and concrete tombs would be a start. In China they've banned burial altogether, everyone is cremated except for some in the countryside where nobody is enforcing the laws. There was some resistance at first, but most people understand that it's wasteful. Today it's just the accepted norm.
China also has almost a billion people in it, in a country the size of the continental 48 states.  Not to mention that they have a millennium-long tradition of obedience from the lower classes to the dictates of the country's rulers, whether they're party leaders or emperors.  Somehow, I don't see your idea flying all that well in a country like America.

Have you bothered to consider the logistics of what you're suggesting?  Bodies start to rot very quickly after someone dies.  As in, the process has already started within hours.  Embalming is not intended to keep bodies rotting indefinitely, just to delay the process long enough for the funeral and burial.  I don't really care whether you think burial is a waste of time or not, you don't have the right to dictate what a family does or doesn't do to honor their dead, certainly not just because it isn't expedient enough.

Now, if you want to try to convince people to adopt your idea, well, that's fine.  But you might want to work on your manner, because I can guarantee that you're not going to convince anyone as long as you think that the "waste" of resources involved in burials is more important than how the family feels about it.

I love how everyone is ignoring my actual point and instead, making my point. You love to hate me so much that you don't bother to read what I'm actually saying. This is not specifically directed at you Jamie, but you're just helping me demonstrate this amusing fact.

I've said so many times, I know it won't change any time soon. And I know why. My point is that it should, and must, change. Eventually.

Otherwise, what's the alternative? Every square of inch of land will be cemetery. It's ridiculous.

I never said that using bodies as fertilizer was the only option, I was simply pointing out an alternative to burial or cremation that is logical and does not waste resources. People reject the idea because it's new.

I never said we shouldn't mourn, or have funerals, or remember the dead, but please feel free to continue the strawman attacks to defeat that arguement that nobody is making.
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Offline inveni0

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2012, 12:20:39 PM »
Cremation is not useless, that's the point I was trying to make.  I'd like to hang onto the remains until I'm ready to let go.  I can't do that if I don't preserve or cremate, can I?

You jump to extremes before thinking.  That's why people don't want to listen.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2012, 12:29:33 PM »
Waste is unnecessary, yes. That's its definition and is not in question here. What's in question is your unsupported assertion that burial rituals are unnecessary and wasteful.

How are they necessary when alternative options are available that can meet the same emotional need to grieve and remember the dead?
How are they not wasteful when alternative options are available that do not consume resources?

And do you really think that that coffin will remain buried for all that time? Remember that to form emotional connections with other people requires actually knowing them. Do you really think that people will care about the remains of their great-great-great-great grandparents?

Are you saying that burial plots should have an expiration date? Because currently they do not. I don't know what it's like in your country, but in the US, there are cemeteries that are centuries-old where no living descendents can be located. In those days there were not metal coffins or concrete tombs, the cemeteries are falling apart. But even then, just try to dig it up to build a shopping mall. See how many people support that. Even if you could get the local's agreement to dig up the bodies, what do you do with them then? Move them to a more modern cemetery?

You are making a false point, based on an ideal fantasy that doesn't exist.

What you think supports your claim that people will adapt to something if we remove the alternatives is flawed, as was pointed out by jaimehlers. In a country where the traditions include blind obedience the dictator in charge, people are not adapting. They're just following their traditions.

I'm going to ignore your glaring ignorance of Chinese culture and history and simply suggest that most people are more reasonable than you give them credit for. A public information campaign explaining the wastefulness of the current burial practice, and suggesting less resource-hogging alternatives might gain a lot of positive attention. A petition to ban metal coffins and concrete tombs might get enough signatures to get on the ballot. Whether it is voted into law or not, it will bring attention the issue.

So yes. We need burial, or cremation. We need to preserve corpses. Because people will want to honor their dead in a way that's meaningful to them. Maybe that way is based on tradition. Doesn't matter. You need to deal with it.

Are you saying there are no alternatives to burial or cremation that honor the dead in a meaningful way? That seems like a slap in the face to cultures that don't bury or cremate their dead. I guess they're doing it wrong.

By the way, just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's right, or the only option, or should continue forever. The founding fathers had a tradition of keeping slaves.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2012, 12:35:40 PM »
I said cremation and burial are superstitious. He said memories of his family are not superstitious. Those two statements are not analogous. They are completely different.
I said we should remember the dead, take time to grieve, mourn, hold funerals and wakes before disposing of the body in a way that does not use resources, preferably turning the body into a resource. He compared that to "immediately shoving them in a meat grinder".
This coming from someone who thinks embalming should be outlawed?  How droll.  Tell me, how do you intend to give people time to remember the dead, to grieve, and hold funerals and wakes, before disposing of the body, if you think embalming techniques intended specifically to give people at least some time to come to terms with things before the body is "disposed of" should be against the law?

I think it can be pretty well proven that cremation and burial are not themselves superstitious practices.  A grave (or a shrine with a sealed pot of cremated ashes) gives people a place to go to remember and honor their loved ones.  In and of itself, it has nothing to do with superstition.  It can take years - decades, even - for a person to finish grieving for a loved one, even if they aren't a human being.  And in some ways, they never really stop grieving.  Again, nothing to do with superstition in and of itself.

Quote from: joebbowers
Not a strawman?
Nope.  Just because you misinterpret something as a strawman doesn't mean it is one.  And you are not one to talk, given how you tend to contradict yourself.

Quote from: joebbowers
I'm not sure you understand what a strawman arguement is.
Hello, pot.  Calling the kettle black again?

Quote from: joebbowers
Which is funny, because you use them all the time.
The only thing that's "funny" is how poorly you tend to comprehend other people's arguments, especially given that you tend to contradict yourself periodically.

----

In response to your response to me:

I love how everyone is ignoring my actual point and instead, making my point. You love to hate me so much that you don't bother to read what I'm actually saying. This is not specifically directed at you Jamie, but you're just helping me demonstrate this amusing fact.
Let's see.  How many people have posted here saying that you're right in your attitude towards burial rituals?  Yet we're "ignoring your actual point" because we "hate you so much"?  Get over yourself.  I don't hate you at all - I don't know you well enough to justify hate.  To be honest, the only things I feel about you are contempt at your callous attitudes and pity at how you think none of us are capable of being rational in your case.

However, I can honestly say that I do read what you say (I always read posts that I disagree with), and apparently remember it better than you did, as I described above.  You keep contradicting yourself, as I illustrated one example of above, yet you apparently think the problem is with the people who disagree with you instead of it being with you yourself.  I can't really say I'm surprised at that attitude.  If there was ever an example of someone who demonstrated the truism that a person cannot learn if they're already convinced they know the answer, it's you.

Quote from: joebbowers
I've said so many times, I know it won't change any time soon. And I know why. My point is that it should, and must, change. Eventually.

Otherwise, what's the alternative? Every square of inch of land will be cemetery. It's ridiculous.
Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't.  But I somehow doubt that every square inch of land on Earth will be a cemetery.  This seems like the sort of exaggeration common to people who take a trend and extrapolate it to its logical end point, no matter how absurd that end point is in practice.

Quote from: joebbowers
I never said that using bodies as fertilizer was the only option, I was simply pointing out an alternative to burial or cremation that is logical and does not waste resources. People reject the idea because it's new.
Yes, because nobody has ever thought that bodies could be used to fertilize crops before.  Even though farmers have always used dead plant and animal matter in order to fertilize their crops, before we came up with methods that let us make fertilizer that could be stored for long periods of time.  Would you get real already?

Quote from: joebbowers
I never said we shouldn't mourn, or have funerals, or remember the dead, but please feel free to continue the strawman attacks to defeat that arguement that nobody is making.
No, but you did say that we should outlaw using metal coffins, embalming, and concrete vaults as a first step to changing funeral rituals to what you want them to be.  The problem is, embalming allows us to have funerals where the members of an extended family can gather together.  If we outlawed embalming, that would be impossible.  Far-off relatives, and even nearby relatives, wouldn't have time to arrange for a proper funeral; the body would have to be disposed of quickly in order to keep it from rotting and making other people get sick.  And I don't mean sick to their stomachs.

That's obviously not as important to you as not wasting the resources from the body by cremating or burying the body, but to be blunt, I don't really care.  You aren't the one who gets to decide what is and isn't important to a family that's planning a funeral.  You aren't the one who gets to say that they shouldn't have a grave or a shrine where they know the person's remains are interred so that they can visit that place in order to remember their loved ones.  You aren't the one who gets to dictate what kind of mourning are appropriate for them, either.

You may not be saying that people shouldn't be able to mourn, or have funerals, or remember their loved ones, but you're sure doing a great job of suggesting that only the means you approve of for doing these things should be valid.  And that's what people are criticizing with these so-called "strawmen", which aren't strawmen at all.

EDIT:
Are you saying there are no alternatives to burial or cremation that honor the dead in a meaningful way? That seems like a slap in the face to cultures that don't bury or cremate their dead. I guess they're doing it wrong.
For someone who likes to call out strawmen, you sure aren't shy about doing it yourself.  Lucifer in no way said that burial and cremation were the only options, here or anywhere else.  He was saying that we shouldn't get rid of burial and cremation because of the people who find them to be useful ways to honor their traditions.

Quote from: joebbowers
By the way, just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's right, or the only option, or should continue forever. The founding fathers had a tradition of keeping slaves.
Given that the traditions of various burial practices in no way equate to the tradition of slavery, I don't see this as being a valid point.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 12:44:24 PM by jaimehlers »

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2012, 12:47:17 PM »
How are they necessary when alternative options are available that can meet the same emotional need to grieve and remember the dead?

But that's just it - there aren't. You don't seem to understand that some people simply require things to be done in a certain way in order to be able to deal with death.

How are they not wasteful when alternative options are available that do not consume resources?

...And? Wasteful would imply that the resources being expended do nothing. As people have pointed out repeatedly, resources are being used to help people deal with the death of their loved ones.

Are you saying that burial plots should have an expiration date? Because currently they do not.

No. I'm saying that there are dead people that nobody gives a crap about.

But even then, just try to dig it up to build a shopping mall. See how many people support that.

Please, tell me more about what people would do using your psychic powers.

You are making a false point, based on an ideal fantasy that doesn't exist.

Actually that would be you. Minus the "ideal" part.

I'm going to ignore your glaring ignorance of Chinese culture and history and simply suggest that most people are more reasonable than you give them credit for.

Show me where I'm wrong. It had always been my understanding that the point of a dictatorship would be for one person to dictate what happens to the country. It was also my understanding that China had always been a dictatorship. If you'd care to explain Chinese culture a bit more, I'll be willing to listen. Of course, I'll need to verify everything that you say.

A public information campaign explaining the wastefulness of the current burial practice, and suggesting less resource-hogging alternatives might gain a lot of positive attention. A petition to ban metal coffins and concrete tombs might get enough signatures to get on the ballot. Whether it is voted into law or not, it will bring attention the issue.

Then make one. Nobody's stopping you. However, the "positive attention" you'll gain isn't the type you want.

Are you saying there are no alternatives to burial or cremation that honor the dead in a meaningful way? That seems like a slap in the face to cultures that don't bury or cremate their dead. I guess they're doing it wrong.

Nice strawman. I'm saying, as I always have, that people have different coping mechanisms. Some need the deceased person's ashes to be kept in a small jar. Others need the body preserved. None are objectively wrong because there is nothing to be wrong about.

By the way, just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's right, or the only option, or should continue forever. The founding fathers had a tradition of keeping slaves.

...And how does this answer my point that your logic was a non-sequitur? Here's what I said:
In addition, this part is just a non-sequitur. "If people had been raised differently they wouldn't think the way they do now, so people are thinking the wrong way."
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2012, 12:52:38 PM »
I'm not contradicting myself when I say that we can both ban preservation and still have funerals and take time to grieve. Your mistake is assuming that the body must be present and viewable in order to mourn.

I don't think the body needs to be at the funeral to grieve. Are you suggesting that in cases where a body is destroyed, lost or otherwise unrecoverable that they shouldn't bother with a funeral?

Also, there are ways to have the body present and unpreserved while not risking the health of the mourners. Wrapping it in a shroud for example.

You're basically saying "Don't be stupid! If we don't do things they way we've always done things, then we can't do them at all!"

I'm saying there are plenty of options that can meet the emotional needs with very little waste.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2012, 12:58:06 PM »
Are you saying there are no alternatives to burial or cremation that honor the dead in a meaningful way? That seems like a slap in the face to cultures that don't bury or cremate their dead. I guess they're doing it wrong.
For someone who likes to call out strawmen, you sure aren't shy about doing it yourself.  Lucifer in no way said that burial and cremation were the only options, here or anywhere else.  He was saying that we shouldn't get rid of burial and cremation because of the people who find them to be useful ways to honor their traditions.

How are they [cremation and burial] necessary when alternative options are available that can meet the same emotional need to grieve and remember the dead?

But that's just it - there aren't. You don't seem to understand that some people simply require things to be done in a certain way in order to be able to deal with death.

 :laugh:
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 12:59:56 PM by joebbowers »
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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2012, 01:02:05 PM »
:laugh:

I assumed we were assuming that burial and cremation where the only alternatives to the method you suggested, for the sake of discussion and shortening posts. If you want, I can rephrase my statement.
But that's just it, for some people, there aren't. You don't seem to understand that some people simply require things to be done in a certain way in order to be able to deal with death.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 01:10:16 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2012, 01:13:16 PM »
Are you saying there are no alternatives to burial or cremation that honor the dead in a meaningful way? That seems like a slap in the face to cultures that don't bury or cremate their dead. I guess they're doing it wrong.
For someone who likes to call out strawmen, you sure aren't shy about doing it yourself.  Lucifer in no way said that burial and cremation were the only options, here or anywhere else.  He was saying that we shouldn't get rid of burial and cremation because of the people who find them to be useful ways to honor their traditions.

How are they [cremation and burial] necessary when alternative options are available that can meet the same emotional need to grieve and remember the dead?

But that's just it - there aren't. You don't seem to understand that some people simply require things to be done in a certain way in order to be able to deal with death.

 :laugh:
What's that saying about he who laughs?  You just shot yourself in the foot here.

Lucifer was not saying that cremation and burial should be the only options for everyone.  What he said was that they are the only options for some people.  The two statements are anything but identical.  Because you apparently assumed that they were the same, you made a strawman argument, that Lucifer must be trying to argue that other groups which don't use burial or cremation are wrong.  And when you got called out on it, you made a fool out of yourself by illustrating how badly you misunderstood what we were saying.

Offline ungod

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2012, 02:00:33 PM »
How come no one offers taxidermy as an alternative???
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2012, 02:37:50 PM »
How come no one offers taxidermy as an alternative???

Me and my wife discussed the idea. It is apparently illegal but I couldn't find an explanation why. I told my wife she could still use certain parts of my anatomy if properly preserved and reinforced[1]...on second thought, maybe THAT'S why it's illegal  :?
 1. She wasn't buying it
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Offline Frank

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2012, 03:35:21 PM »


And do you really think that that coffin will remain buried for all that time? Remember that to form emotional connections with other people requires actually knowing them. Do you really think that people will care about the remains of their great-great-great-great grandparents?


Maybe not for all time but for a good chunk of it by human standards. The fact is we live in a world with more and more people and less and less room. Now the idea of using large pieces of land, especially in crowded cities, as corpse warehouses is pure waste. That is valuable land that could be used to build on, houses shops, but no it's full of dead bodies. I know we'll just concrete over the local parks instead. After all who needs grean space. So far all the deceased members of my family, including my dad, have been cremated and when my time comes so will I be. I will relieve my family of the burden of an expensive funeral, and the cost of an expensive box to bury my lifeless carcass in for the next few centuries. They can scatter my ashes to wind and I'll get to visit all those places I never travelled to while I was alive. No fuss, no muss.
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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2012, 03:46:49 PM »
How come no one offers taxidermy as an alternative???

Me and my wife discussed the idea. It is apparently illegal but I couldn't find an explanation why. I told my wife she could still use certain parts of my anatomy if properly preserved and reinforced[1]...on second thought, maybe THAT'S why it's illegal  :?
 1. She wasn't buying it

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2012, 03:48:18 PM »
Maybe not for all time but for a good chunk of it by human standards.

Correction: By your standards. Unless you wish to claim that I'm not human.

The fact is we live in a world with more and more people and less and less room.
<snip>

Unless you wish to make the claim that if it's good enough for you then it's good enough for the other 7 billion humans on this planet, I don't see your point. How about instead of removing the spaces where people can honor their dead, we try to make certain that our population doesn't increase exponentially? You know, getting rid of the problem at the source, rather than complaining about its results.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Frank

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2012, 03:57:26 PM »


Unless you wish to make the claim that if it's good enough for you then it's good enough for the other 7 billion humans on this planet, I don't see your point. How about instead of removing the spaces where people can honor their dead, we try to make certain that our population doesn't increase exponentially? You know, getting rid of the problem at the source, rather than complaining about its results.

Interesting idea. Restrict human reproduction just so we can have enough room to carry on burying, sorry I mean "honouring" dead people. You don't need a hole in the ground to honour someone
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