Author Topic: Burn or Bury?  (Read 6777 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2012, 04:36:50 PM »
Funerals have purpose. Family members can gather to mourn and get closure. This is not superstition. I never even remotely suggested that it was, nor did I say that we should forget people when they die.

Of course it's not superstitious.  A funeral serves the emotional needs of the family.  As does ceremony regarding the body of the deceased.

You're saying I said something I didn't, then arguing against that. That's a strawman.

No, I'm pointing something out in an analogous situation to highlight something you're ignoring in the situation under discussion.  That's not a strawman.  But then, intellectual honesty hasn't been your strong point so far on this forum, so I don't expect you to acknowledge the fact...

On the other hand, preserving bodies for centuries by embalming then encasing them in an airtight tomb, as is the modern practice, is simply modern mummification. There is no afterlife, therefore no reason to preserve the bodies this way. It's also a huge waste of land and resources. It is stupid.

Wait, are you saying that if there was an afterlife, then it would make sense to bury our dead?  That seems to be the dichotomy you're presenting:  The idea the lack of afterlife means there is no need to bury only makes sense if it was true that the presence of an afterlife would somehow mean that there was a need to bury.  Maybe that makes sense in the old Egyptian style of religion, but is that even related to the modern superstition of our culture?  Most of those are Abrahamic, or similarly derived.  The "soul" is supposed to have departed the body.  In that superstitious context, burial makes no sense with respect to an afterlife.  The dead person's soul has gone to whevever it was supposed to go, and the body is a husk.  I've been to Christian funerals, and they actually call the body an empty husk at some of them.  It doesn't hold some superstitious meaning to them.

This whole "burial necessarily means superstition" thing has all the hallmarks of something you've just pulled out of your ass without any evidence to back it up.  Kind of like a religious belief, only with fewer excuses.  Not to mention that, as jaimehlers has pointed out, the body's not generally preserved in an air-tight casket for centuries.  I'm guessing that the prevalence of such preservation is something that you've also made up out of thin air.

Cremation is less stupid, but more creepy.

Creepy, eh?  Sounds superstitious.  Afraid of ghosts?

I mean if a funeral is for closure, then why keep the dead in your house?

Because one wants to keep a monument to the dead.  This is also part of the justification for burial.  Cremation just happens to be more practical in many cases.

And how many generations are you expected to keep?

Passive voice is cowardly writing.  Come on, Joe - expected by whom?

Should my father pass down his father's ashes to me, and I pass them on to my kids, and so on? At some point, you've got a closet full of jars of human remains. That kind of crazy only happens for religious reasons.

If the ashes no longer mean anything to the one(s) holding them, then there is no need to keep them.

By all means, have a funeral, say goodbye. Then let the city body disposal service take it away and make compost out of it.

Why?  They're dead.  Gone.  It's not like they're looking backward from an afterlife.  Whyever would we need a funeral?[1]

By the way, does your local compost service accept meat?  I'm pretty sure mine doesn't.

It only seems offensive because it's new. I'm sure the first guy who said "Dude, let's set your dead mom on fire," or probably got some disapproving looks in his day.

No.  It seems offensive because it ignores the human need to remember and honor our dead.  Are you ignoring that aspect out of ignorance, or out of malice?
 1. This question is rhetorical, and not a strawman.  It is designed to get you to think critically about your position.  Though I expect you will not, regardless of what anyone says, given your attitude.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 04:45:49 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2012, 04:44:29 PM »
Most modern coffins are metal, not wood, and the coffin is placed inside a concrete tomb when finally ready to be put in the ground. The concrete tomb is airtight and protects the corpse from both nature and graverobbers. This is fairly standard practice now.

Every funeral I've been at that has had a body in a coffin has had a coffin made of wood, which was put directly in the ground.  That's anecdotal, of course.  Maybe the style I'm familiar with is the outlier.  But it seems needlessly wasteful to prepare a burial plot in the way you describe, so I'm not sure what the appeal would be, especially considering the prevalence of Christian superstition in our culture, with its belief that the body is an empty husk after death.

So, could you please cite your source of statistics about modern funerary practices with respect to the composition of the coffin and the lining of the burial plot?
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Offline atheola

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2012, 05:43:51 PM »
I guess it depends which branch of batshit crazy people fall from. The old woman I took care of for 7 yrs died in November and was embalmed then put in a suitcase (coffin) then sealed in a cement box beside her husband's suitcase and cargo of dead carcass.
Personally I don't really care how they dispose of me. I HOPE nobody goes deep in debt to do it, but the only thing I'm contributing is a dead body.
That's not to say I want anyone using my carcass for paintball target practice or something, but even if they do what am I gonna do about it? Haunt someone?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2012, 05:57:59 PM »
Most modern coffins are metal, not wood, and the coffin is placed inside a concrete tomb when finally ready to be put in the ground. The concrete tomb is airtight and protects the corpse from both nature and graverobbers. This is fairly standard practice now.

Every funeral I've been at that has had a body in a coffin has had a coffin made of wood, which was put directly in the ground.  That's anecdotal, of course.  Maybe the style I'm familiar with is the outlier.  But it seems needlessly wasteful to prepare a burial plot in the way you describe, so I'm not sure what the appeal would be, especially considering the prevalence of Christian superstition in our culture, with its belief that the body is an empty husk after death.

So, could you please cite your source of statistics about modern funerary practices with respect to the composition of the coffin and the lining of the burial plot?

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Offline wright

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2012, 06:38:24 PM »
That's not to say I want anyone using my carcass for paintball target practice or something, but even if they do what am I gonna do about it? Haunt someone?

A good point and reason for being on good terms with the executors of your last request. If we want our wishes to be respected when we're dead, we have to earn that respect while we still can.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2012, 07:35:05 PM »
Buried or burned?

Neither for me thanks. If I had my way in a perfect world, when my time comes I would wander off into the woods, lay down and die....like a stray dog. I refuse to give money to anyone to "process" my dead body. I have been processed my whole fucking life. Tired of it. None of us chose to be here, we should at least extend the common courtesy out of mutual respect to allow each other to choose our own way out.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2012, 08:57:42 PM »
Cremation and burial are superstitious practices, wasteful and useless.

I think all people should be ground up and used for fertilizer. The sad part is that superstitious traditions are so ingrained in us that while my solution is logical, cheap, and beneficial, most people would say it's crazy.

Joe, there is already a movement in Sweden that does that -- but with sentimentality.  The freeze dried, ground up decedent is returned in a sturdy cardboard box and you are to bury it and plant a tree over it.  Then you can show the children the tree that is great grandmother.  Or the city can grow a tree over her in a park.

I read about it at the end of Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers (2004) by Mary Roach.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 08:59:36 PM by Historicity »

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2012, 09:16:32 PM »
Joe, there is already a movement in Sweden that does that -- but with sentimentality.  The freeze dried, ground up decedent is returned in a sturdy cardboard box and you are to bury it and plant a tree over it.  Then you can show the children the tree that is great grandmother.  Or the city can grow a tree over her in a park.

Reminds me of the Pequeninos and their father trees.


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Offline atheola

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2012, 07:32:44 AM »
"In a perfect world..." Being we're allegedly patterned afted father perfecf aka god something went REALLY wrong in the manufacturing process so perhaps we ought to do what we do with all defective products...toss em in a landfill and build overpriced homes on them.
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Offline RNS

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2012, 02:00:29 PM »
I think i would like to be burned AND buried xD

I don't like the idea of bugs and stuff eating me when i'm dead (i find bugs extremely repulsive), so i'd like to be burned, but then buried, but with a tree seed or something so that my remains go back into the system (nature and that).
This growing tree could also serve as a somewhat of a gravestone, giving people something to visit should they want to.

I went to a funeral a few months ago and i was watching how they buried the caskets; they use so much cement and stuff. it seems like such a waste of space and resources, filling the ground with all these things. can't be good for the earth either, preventing the remains from being reabsorbed.

i used to think that i wanted to be burnt then scattered at the top of a mountain or something, but i've since realised that it's possibly slightly egocentric/conceited to expect people to shlep up a mountain to do that- you don't know what situations people will be in when that time comes.
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Offline Devils Advocate

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2012, 02:50:24 PM »
I have not investigated this at all, but I have heard that cremation is worse for the environment than burial, because of the chemicals released into the atmosphere through the smoke. Could it be that burial is the more earth friendly method of cadaver disposal?
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Offline atheola

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2012, 06:32:29 PM »
GRANDMA! Uncle Frank wanted you to scatter his ashes on Mt. Everest and it's a long walk so get going before we have to drag your dead ass up there too! >:(
Somehow I don't see that happening...at least not to often.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2012, 06:37:20 PM »
I want to be rendered and put in makeup, with bits of me living on on beautiful women's faces..

I guess I'd really like my body to be consumed by piranha on video and then have it posted on youtube.
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Offline atheola

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2012, 06:58:31 PM »
I want to be rendered and put in makeup, with bits of me living on on beautiful women's faces..

I guess I'd really like my body to be consumed by piranha on video and then have it posted on youtube.
How about being consumed filmed in time lapsey photography by flies and maggots?
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You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
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Offline pingnak

Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2012, 09:32:32 PM »
There are alternatives to burn or bury.  Not even considering the Monty Python skit ("I think we've got an eater!")

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/09/13/8-alternative-burial-technologies-that-are-going-mainstream/

'Natural Burial' or Resomation, or if nothing else, cremation and discard the ashes.

What I worry about more is the transportation fees.  As non-green as cremation is, moving a stinky corpse around is worse, and VERY expensive.  So if the body would have to be transported hundreds of miles (and anyone who wanted to view the interment, as well) to bury it, cremate it and chuck the cremains in the trash, or in the roses, or a lake, or wherever you like.  It's not like I'd care.  At least they can be bagged up and mailed pretty cheap, if someone is feeling sentimental about charcoal and bonemeal.


Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2012, 08:14:48 AM »
Science and/or organ donor. At least that way I have a chance to help out someone decent. No need to use up space. My loved ones will find that they are fully capable of thinking of me without having to take a bus to a cemetery.

I will, however, look into the possibility of preserving my skull for a friend who will share my silent chuckle at this little feat of just-because.

What? I'm dead, I don't need it anymore. If you want to be remembered, what better way than to be a conversation piece in someone's living room?
Hell, I could be of great use, scaring away JWs and whatnot.
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Offline atheola

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2012, 01:54:40 PM »
Now that you mention it I might have my penis dried, stuffed and preserved then donated to planned parenthood so young women will get one tiny peek and give up on unwanted kids before ever even thinking of having...you know.. S E X.. :o
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Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2012, 03:37:30 PM »
Or you could donate condoms ... not that I'm entirely in favor of doing something simple when something elaborately contrived would do just as well.
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Offline changeling

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2012, 07:08:09 AM »
Now that you mention it I might have my penis dried, stuffed and preserved then donated to planned parenthood so young women will get one tiny peek and give up on unwanted kids before ever even thinking of having...you know.. S E X.. :o

If the tiny peek was intentional, you can always include a magnifying glass.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2012, 04:49:27 PM »
Now that you mention it I might have my penis dried, stuffed and preserved then donated to planned parenthood so young women will get one tiny peek and give up on unwanted kids before ever even thinking of having...you know.. S E X.. :o

:o
Looking at that might turn them into lesbians for life. It's not easy to make someone switch sides, but I think a glimpse of a "dried, stuffed and preserved" dingle would just about do it.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2012, 04:50:27 PM »
:o
Looking at that might turn them into lesbians for life. It's not easy to make someone switch sides, but I think a glimpse of a "dried, stuffed and preserved" dingle would just about do it.

It would probably turn me straight...
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2012, 05:58:04 PM »
:o
Looking at that might turn them into lesbians for life. It's not easy to make someone switch sides, but I think a glimpse of a "dried, stuffed and preserved" dingle would just about do it.

It would probably turn me straight...

Don't give the aversion therapy people any ideas.... &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2012, 05:59:29 PM »
Don't give the aversion therapy people any ideas.... &)

Then again, seeing the real thing might erase that horrible image, or at least make me focus on what it really looks like.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2012, 03:21:22 PM »
I guess it depends which branch of batshit crazy people fall from. The old woman I took care of for 7 yrs died in November and was embalmed then put in a suitcase (coffin) then sealed in a cement box beside her husband's suitcase and cargo of dead carcass.
Personally I don't really care how they dispose of me. I HOPE nobody goes deep in debt to do it, but the only thing I'm contributing is a dead body.
That's not to say I want anyone using my carcass for paintball target practice or something, but even if they do what am I gonna do about it? Haunt someone?

Can we use this phrase instead of asking people what religion they practice? When people come to the door with religious literature, say, "By the way, which branch of batshit crazy did you say you fell from again? Jehovah's Witness? Oh, Mormon, that's right. LDS." ;D

Speaking of which, are there lots of signs on buses and billboards everywhere that say "I'm a Mormon" where you live? Pictures of all these diverse-looking, happy smiling people, like an old Benetton ad. What's with that? Is Mitt Romney's pocket change burning a hole in his pocket? I want to vandalize all the signs by erasing the second "m".  :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2012, 03:22:43 PM »
Damn, been a while since Joe was on this thread.  Wonder where he went?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2012, 04:00:12 PM »
Speaking of which, are there lots of signs on buses and billboards everywhere that say "I'm a Mormon" where you live? Pictures of all these diverse-looking, happy smiling people, like an old Benetton ad. What's with that? Is Mitt Romney's pocket change burning a hole in his pocket? I want to vandalize all the signs by erasing the second "m".  :P

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Offline atheola

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2012, 10:39:57 AM »
...heading to the big and tall mens magic underwear department at Sears.. Do they still sell the "tough skin" brand?  :D

You know....it seems to me women get the magical undies because it often has an intoxicating effect on me and they come in so many nice colors..not to mention how dental floss doubles as magic underwear. :laugh:
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 10:53:30 AM by atheola »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2012, 10:10:02 AM »
I want to be rendered and put in makeup, with bits of me living on on beautiful women's faces..

I guess I'd really like my body to be consumed by piranha on video and then have it posted on youtube.

The choices were burn or bury. If we're just making up fantasies I want to have my skin made into women's bicycle seats.
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Re: Burn or Bury?
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2012, 10:12:08 AM »
Damn, been a while since Joe was on this thread.  Wonder where he went?

Someone pointed out that my insane idea was already being done by some people, and I didn't feel the need to defend it any further.

Also, my laptop is broken.
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