Author Topic: If Intelligent Design was really science, what could you write a PhD thesis on?  (Read 3019 times)

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Offline rhocam

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It has been said before, but, when you consider the vastness of the universe, and I mean the real vastness, it is ludicrous (not impossible, but highly improbable) that there was a creator, and beyond ludicrous that such a being would take any interest in where the hairless monkeys left their keys, parked their cars or put their naughty bits.



Unless He made this all for them.

Offline rhocam

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1.  What do elements of the detected designs in nature tell us about the designer?

-The designs found in nature reflect a very thourough designer.
-Nothing is overlooked.
-The complete ecosystem is intertwined.
-From birth to death to life anew,
-Procreation,
-The ability to find and convert food energies.
-There is no niche unfilled, no system unaccounted for.

Welcome rhocam. On the scale that we living out west use, we're practically neighbors. You live in Saskatchewan, and I live in Montana. As the crow flies, you live about 400 miles away. Philosophically, we're much further apart.

You put a lot of energy into your post and I am hoping that others respond too. I chose the above to respond to first because it would be hard to hold anyone's attention by responding to all of it in one fell swoop. If nothing else, I want to find out how serious you are before I respond at length.

First you say "-The designs found in nature reflect a very thourough designer."

This is an opinion. You're allowed to have it, of course, but you seem to be assuming that it is correct. You're allowed to do that too, but don't assume that we see nature in the same way. I, for instance, see that designed appearance of nature to be a by-product of lot of undesigned events. Whether you're saying "Wow, five fingers on both hands, that can't be a coincidence" or you're staring through a microscope at a chain of DNA and being generally astonished (as we all should be) and seeing it as something "designed", it's an opinion. Neither ID or any other alternative approach to biological questions has come up with anything that qualifies as an alternative explanation (other than "god did it"), and most people who espouse such things seem to be in awe rather than curious.

Not counting abiogenesis, which science admittedly cannot yet explain (something we feel time will fix), a good deal of biology can be explained using non-astonished methods. Biologists can look at the similarities in the DNA of humans and fruit flies and plants and yeast and conclude that there is a connection. They can point to specific DNA sequences that are identical and perform similar tasks in very different organisms. We call this evidence. It's something that biology has a lot of, and yet very few biologists are claiming that there is a designer. Hence that evidence doesn't seem to support such an allegation. A designer is not obvious to those studying life the most intently.

Next you say "-Nothing is overlooked. "

I've no idea what your standards are here but if I were in the mood, I could come up with a lot of things that were overlooked. A designer made human backs inherently defective? Thirty percent or more of all humans will have back problems, most caused by the poorly designed spine. Poorly designed when walking upright. I for one am not impressed. I can add to that poorly designed abdominal muscle walls that allow 25% or so of the population to have to deal with hernias. Appendixes. The female susceptibility to vaginal infections. The need for bacteria to properly digest our food and keep our skin clean. That's just for starters, and just for humans. What's with the deer rack I found in the forest 20 years ago where one point of the antler grew into the skull and, if it didn't kill the poor thing, sure made it painful for awhile. Why do catbirds destroy the eggs of other bird species and lay their own eggs in those nests so that other non-catbird  birds can raise the catbird young? Or is there something else not overlooked that you were thinking of. I find tons of things pointing to a defective system that works despite it's shortcomings. But I don't find perfection.

Next you said, less controversially, that "-The complete ecosystem is intertwined. "

But again it sounds like you see that fact as a planned component of life, not a byproduct. When you're standing by the edge of a pond, fascinated by the interdependencies between fish and birds and frogs and plants and amoeba and fluke worms and mosquito larvae and such, you are not seeing all the efforts of other species to survive in the same environment, the ones that didn't make it. Perhaps a bird that needed more plankton to eat than the pond could provide. Or the fish that needed cooler water than the shallow water could produce. Or the plant with less robust roots that was crowded out by the cattails. Designers with the stature of a god shouldn't need to experiment, for millions and billions of years, to get it right. Especially since you say they weren't overlooking anything.

Next: "-From birth to death to life anew, "

Yes indeed. The various elements and chemicals within each of us are recycled (if given the chance) into other critters. (If we're embalmed and stuck in a metal box, it takes a bit longer. But it presumably still happens). Life is dependent upon the various organic elements and compounds that it is made of, and it has to recycle, because many of those components are unavailable otherwise. Do yo personally know where to get enough carbon to make your next kid if you use any other method then the next item on your list, procreation? Of course not. Nor does anyone else. We have to have ways to get it from living or once living sources, and evolution has made the tools for such recycling available. It gets messy. A dead cow in the desert crawling with millions of larvae is not one of the prettiest sites I've ever seen, but it was memorable. The rotting bodies and bones of deceased critters returns the pieces of their life to the soil and makes it available for later use by other living things. You think that was part of a grand design. I'm thinking it is a rather natural byproduct of a system created ad hoc by life. One that apparently works, or we wouldn't be here.

I already mentioned the next item on your list, "-Procreation". Very nice. Apparently sinful, but very nice. Quite necessary for any species to survive. It doesn't always require human type sex (single celled organisms split in half, flowers at least have the decency to casually distribute pollen rather than get all sweaty, etc) But something has to happen to cause one or more new little critters to be produced by the parent unit, whatever it may be. That ability is one of the basic definitions of life. Something that can move around all day and yet not reproduce isn't alive. By our definition. It may or may not be a sign that there is a designer. I see no reason to think that one is involved.

Then you listed "-The ability to find and convert food energies." The only thing we humans (and other mammals) eat that is not derived from living material is salt. (I'm not counting red dye #7 and other human created additives. I'm sure we all agree those are not necessary.) Now some bacteria can live off of things like sulfur and iron and sunlight. They are the ones that start the food chain. Most of the rest of us are required to eat things that were once alive, be they cows or carrots. This fits in nicely with evolution and life being intertwined, but it doesn't automatically point to a designer. It is easy for me to see this as yet another byproduct of life's little experiment. Something that it is doing on its own quite nicely.

And finally, you said : " -There is no niche unfilled, no system unaccounted for." Hmmm. Why does the species Demodex folliculorum live hamlessly in only about one third of the human population's eyelashes? Why don't all dogs have dog heartworm? Why aren't all ants infected by the fungus Ophiocordyceps? Lots of them are, but by no means are all of them. If no niche is unfilled, why don't I have malaria? How can you extirpate an animal from an area? Isn't that a niche unfilled? Amazing niche's are filled. Black smokers at the bottom of oceans, whatever the heck they find alive in that long buried Antarctic lake. But there is still plenty of room for new niches and new critters to fill them. The bacteria growing in jet fuel tanks, for instance. Where the heck did they live before humans invented jet fuel tanks? It is indeed amazing the types of niche's and the critters that live in them, but a guy big on creating the heavens and the earth and then taking the time to create the polio virus. What a sweetheart.

And what does "no system unaccounted for" mean? I haven't the slightest idea, so I can't respond.

You've come up with a nice list, but I've no idea how some of it applies to science as we know it. And I can't figure out how or why a designer is considered necessary. Like the christian god, it sounds like you have to have faith, because there is nothing to show otherwise.

And I have to ask. A god that's big on being anonymous and who requires faith and belief as proof of subservience, etc. isn't going to use some system or method of creating life that leaves tell-tales clues behind. If DNA were shown to be absolute proof that he exists, that little requirement of his would be thrown right out the window.

And please don't' be one of those guys that says ID has nothing to do with gods. I hate it when that happens. You're born again. So that's probably not one of your issues.  But correct me if I'm wrong.

Note: I did not get into the issue of abiogenesis, though you discussed it. And of course there were other parts of your post I did not respond to here. But the fact that we don't know how life happened does not mean that there are not facts that can explain it. Facts that we don't have yet. I'd rather give science more time than roll over and play dead. No, we don't know how. But no, that doesn't mean we have to give props to a sky daddy either.

Again, welcome. And you don't need to apologize for the improper quoting problem as long as you take earnest steps to do it right and hence keep the rest of your posts clearer. Magicmiles gave you the right link to learn how to do it right, and when you next post, notice that you have a "Preview" button available to look at your post before it goes live. Very handy, especially when you want to be sure you are quoting clearly.

I appreciate your kindness.
I have spent a good part of the day mulling over which immutable laws of God could not be challenged by evolution.
Here are three:

People have will, reasoning, and emotions because God created us that way.

People have mastery over the animals because God created us that way.

Things fall when you drop them because God decreed it so.

You will all focus on the last one because you can't deal with the first two.
 

Offline Azdgari

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Unless He made this all for them.

Doesn't that strike you as mind-blowingly arrogant?
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline ParkingPlaces

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People have will, reasoning, and emotions because God created us that way.

That's one possibility. I've never seen any evidence for it, but it is one possibility. Another is that said will, reasoning and emotions evolved along with everything else we consider a part of us. There is lots of evidence for that. Even if you don't like the 'evolved' part, there is plenty of research done in the fields of psychology and brain science and such that points to each of those capacities being built into us biologically.

Some people have little or no will. Others cannot reason. And still others have either no emotions or too many. Quite consistent with a biological process that occasionally goes wrong for physical or chemical reasons. Not at all consistent with an omnipotent god mucking up. Omnipotent gods don't muck up. If their followers are to be believed.

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People have mastery over the animals because God created us that way.
Yea, my cousin, while a game warden in Alaska, had to shoot a charging grizzly bear. That was in the 1980's. Had he been charged in 1580 he would have died. Lacking a gun and all. We don't have mastery over grizzlys. We don't have mastery over lions or tigers or rattlesnakes or the amoeba that cause malaria or pirañas. Humans have domesticated 73 species. Out of at least 1.7 million species known. Why am I not impressed.

I get a big frickin' moose in my yard every once in a while during the summer months. Huge dude with a antlers the size of Rhode Island. Lets just say I don't do much lawn mowing when he's around. Should I just read a verse or two of the bible and go out there and kick him in the butt? I don't think so. But you can if you want.

We have mastered cats. Sort of. If you don't count Toxoplasma gondii, a parasite carried by cats that, when contracted by humans, causes them to treat cats nicer. Makes us actually sick in other ways too, but it somehow convinces us to hang around large numbers of kitties. Who is being mastered there?

I'm not kidding: http://www.livescience.com/933-study-cat-parasite-affects-human-culture.html

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Things fall when you drop them because God decreed it so.

No need to respond to this. You think he loves us. If he exists, I think he's a tad bit inconsiderate if he's going to let us die this way too. There is little ground for compromise, so lets not worry about it.

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You will all focus on the last one because you can't deal with the first two.

Oh sorry. I tried to fulfill your prediction, but I just couldn't do it.

Edit: added moose story which I hadn't thought of when I first wrote this post.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:57:17 AM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline rhocam

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Unless He made this all for them.

Doesn't that strike you as mind-blowingly arrogant?

so?

Offline Ivellios

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Yeah, god created the entire universe, the vast majority that could not be seen until the Hubble went into orbit... yet he made it all for them.

What's the point since Jesus and Paul claimed Jesus would return before the people in that generation would die?

I think that if the Earth were designed, it would be in the way that children think everything works. Why blood? Why breathe? Why death? Why pain? If the Earth were designed, there wouldn't be any of these things. They would work, because God decreed it so.

Online jetson

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nogods...interesting point, and it triggered a further thought.

How big is God?

Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha....

why would it matter how big He is?

I'm just curious.  Any guesses?

Offline Azdgari

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so?

I don't know, usually when a thought crosses my mind that's mind-blowingly arrogant, I take a 2nd look at it because arrogance usually isn't justified.  It's a self-indulgent quality.  It's self-flattery.

Do you embrace self-flattery in other contexts?  If not, then why do you do so in this one?
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline Ivellios

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Easy. YHWH created the entire universe just for him. If he was the only person in existence Jesus would sacrifice himself for rhocam. The truth is, he is the only person in this world. rhocam is the protaginist in this storybook we call reality. The rest of us are either support characters or antagonists to strengthen him for the final confrontation with the main boss, Satan, at the very end. You see, the entirety of self-indulgent boasting and self flattery are justified when you realize the truth that without YHWH, he is truly alone in the universe, since we are not really real.

Offline MadBunny

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Sorry to re-post, but just in case you missed it, I had a simple question, hopefully you can apply it to ID, as stipulated in the OP.  I suppose you could apply it to your religion as a whole since you seem to be going that route with these answers.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21418.msg477153.html#msg477153
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline velkyn

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The reason I turn to ID as evidence is not for me, Its so you will engage me in dialogue.
  ROFL.  Oh, of course it’s not for you.  Of course not, since I actually asked for evidence. You can’t provide any so you run away.  Cue the coconuts.  And on the risk of derailing this thread, here's a response to the usual Christian nonsense about slavery.
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Biblical slavery was closer to the slavery we know now, people who had no money did jobs for people who had money. American slavery is not found in the Bible, check it.
Sorry, Rhocam, but it is in the bible so you are lying again. You see, I was a Christian once and unlike many Christians, I read the bible.  I’m also quite familiar with the culture of that area during the purported time bible events were supposed to be happening.  You depend on ignorance to cling to your false beliefs.  The Israelites and many other cultures had slavery just like in the US during its first century or so.  They captured people and forced them to be slaves.  They did exactly like US slave owners did, forcing families apart, using the women as sex slaves, etc.  It was not only indentured servitude as so many Christians would try to claim.  Your own bible shows you are a liar: Leviticus 25:44-46; Exodus 21:7-11; Exodus 21:20-21; Ephesians 6:5 (slavery is good, obey your master); 1 Peter 2:18-19 (put up with being treated badly).  My favorite pro-slavery verse in the bible shows just how “family friendly” the bible is: 
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Exodus 21: If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.
What a nice law from God, choose between slavery and love.
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I find it humerous that this is the sticking point with you. Women are no different than men. the roles and responsibilities are different but not value. Why don't you focus on Husband love your wife? Or treat those working for you fairly. You know nothing of God, only that if He exists you don't like Him.
  Again, more lies based on your ignorance of your own bible.  How entertaining.  Their value is different.  Women are considered property in the bible. The commandments from Exodus have them listed as such.  They do not have the same rights as men.  In the New Testament, women are considered less than men, they may not speak in church, they must obey their husband, etc.  Again, totally different and lesser, rights.   I find it amusing that you want me to “focus” on some bible verses and ignore others.  That would be convenient for you, wouldn’t’ it, but it does underline how you intentionally ignore your own bible when it says things you don’t like.  I also enjoy when Christians run to Paul’s supposed letters but when they say thing they don’t like, oh those parts are only meant for that particular audience.  In Ephesians, it does say for husbands to love their wives, but it says that it’s the only way for women to be considered “pure”.  Such lovely condescension.  Let’s see what else Paul has to say about women: Also in Ephesians, a wife must submit to her husband in “everything”.  Lovely words about how young widows are just horrible people, and “need” to marry in 1 Timothy.  More in 1 Timothy that women should never be allowed to teach men or assume authority over him (golly, how many Christians sin with that!), should always be submissive and can only be “saved” by childbirth.  Adam was “formed first” so he’s better (funny how only one version of the genesis story says this).  Pity that “Paul” suddenly forgets what he supposedly said in Galatians, that women were indeed equal.  One more screw up in a book full of errors. Same with 1 Corinthians 11 says that women can indeed pray and prophecy (albeit with their head covered), but then says that they have to be quiet always.  And gee, since the bible is from god, evidently God can’t make up his mind (or this god can’t keep forgeries out of his bible, as some bible scholars evidently think: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/03/St-Paul-Friend-Or-Enemy-Of-Women.aspx?p=2

No, Rhocam, I wouldn’t worship your god because it is either an idiot or imaginary, not simply because I don’t like it. I know quite a lot about your god though, having read the bible. If you want to claim that it’s wrong, then you’ll have to show me how you know what parts are the right ones and which aren’t?  What magic decoder ring do you use?  All Christains have one, and I do enjoy when their claims contradict each others.  Combine that with no Christian being able to do what JC said you could do and I’m pretty sure you are all simply wannabees.
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The biblical account also has an explaination for screw ups, it is called sin.The whole of creation groans as with birth pangs waiting for the reavealing of the son of God
The fact that you try SO hard to deny design shows it.
Really?  Funny how that claim has been made for 2000+ years now and still no revelation.  People have been saying your bible and religion are nonsense and still nothing has happened, just lots of lies told by Christians about how your god is coming back on various dates with no-shows all the way.

I do like your argument though, since it shows that there is no way for you to really know what your god meant for you to do since you have no idea what parts of the bible screwups are from “sin”.  It could completely be wrong, and evidently your god doesn’t care who gets the message wrong.  But you in your preening arrogance, think that only you and those who agree with you are the TrueChristians.
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Offline Turbo SS

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Biblical slavery was closer to the slavery we know now, people who had no money did jobs for people who had money. American slavery is not found in the Bible, check it.


I love it when fundies post this because then I get my chance to post my favorite Bible verse.   :laugh:

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21) 

I dont know about you but I dont think I would work at a job where my employer was allowed to beat me.  &)

EDIT:  I just saw Velkyn beat me (no pun intended) to it in the last post.  :-[

Online One Above All

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I dont know about you but I dont think I would work at a job where my employer was allowed to beat me.  &)

Well, speaking from a PoV that I totally do not share, it might depend on how hard they would hit you, where and with what.
Just saying. &)
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Offline Ivellios

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Biblical slavery was closer to the slavery we know now, people who had no money did jobs for people who had money. American slavery is not found in the Bible, check it.

Yeah, if you're hebrew they own you for 6 years and get released on the 7th. If you're not hebrew, it's for life. Next, it's not you the slave that gets the money, it's someone else that claims ownership over you. They also had terms for people that "did jobs for people why had money." maid servant, man servant, sheperd, etc.

Have you ever heard of animal husbandry? the jews practiced human husbandry. Buy a man, buy a woman, give the woman to be the man's wife, let them make babies, rape her every once in awhile and whip her because she was raped by her owner, at the guy's 7th year he must choose between love and not being property, even if the man chooses freedom, the woman and children are slaves for life. Which means, of course, you can sell off the children for profit.

Yup, sure sounds like just doing jobs for money. Doing odd jobs like mowing my neighbor's lawn is just like biblical slavery because rhocam says so, so he MUST know.  &)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:06:24 PM by TruthSeeker »

Offline rhocam

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nogods...interesting point, and it triggered a further thought.

How big is God?

Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha....

why would it matter how big He is?

He is bigger than your god

I'm just curious.  Any guesses?

Offline rhocam

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Biblical slavery was closer to the slavery we know now, people who had no money did jobs for people who had money. American slavery is not found in the Bible, check it.

Yeah, if you're hebrew they own you for 6 years and get released on the 7th. If you're not hebrew, it's for life. Next, it's not you the slave that gets the money, it's someone else that claims ownership over you. They also had terms for people that "did jobs for people why had money." maid servant, man servant, sheperd, etc.

Have you ever heard of animal husbandry? the jews practiced human husbandry. Buy a man, buy a woman, give the woman to be the man's wife, let them make babies, rape her every once in awhile and whip her because she was raped by her owner, at the guy's 7th year he must choose between love and not being property, even if the man chooses freedom, the woman and children are slaves for life. Which means, of course, you can sell off the children for profit.

Yup, sure sounds like just doing jobs for money. Doing odd jobs like mowing my neighbor's lawn is just like biblical slavery because rhocam says so, so he MUST know.  &)

How long do you have to work? How long can you stop working? You are a slave, you can't stop working, or you have no money. I have to get up go do what someone else wants me to, I am unable to do what i want most of the day. Do I have a choice? sure if I want my kids to go hungry

Offline rhocam

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Biblical slavery was closer to the slavery we know now, people who had no money did jobs for people who had money. American slavery is not found in the Bible, check it.

Yeah, if you're hebrew they own you for 6 years and get released on the 7th. If you're not hebrew, it's for life. Next, it's not you the slave that gets the money, it's someone else that claims ownership over you. They also had terms for people that "did jobs for people why had money." maid servant, man servant, sheperd, etc.

Now you have to back up a minute. God was not creating slavery, He was making rules because they were practicing it.

Have you ever heard of animal husbandry? the jews practiced human husbandry. Buy a man, buy a woman, give the woman to be the man's wife, let them make babies, rape her every once in awhile and whip her because she was raped by her owner, at the guy's 7th year he must choose between love and not being property, even if the man chooses freedom, the woman and children are slaves for life. Which means, of course, you can sell off the children for profit.

Yup, sure sounds like just doing jobs for money. Doing odd jobs like mowing my neighbor's lawn is just like biblical slavery because rhocam says so, so he MUST know.  &)

Offline velkyn

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How long do you have to work? How long can you stop working? You are a slave, you can't stop working, or you have no money. I have to get up go do what someone else wants me to, I am unable to do what i want most of the day. Do I have a choice? sure if I want my kids to go hungry

And that's not slavery, rhocam.  that's called working and responisiblity.   It's so nice to see you try to devalue the suffering of millions of people so you can excuse your storybook. 
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Offline Brad the Bold

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So just an attempt to steer back to the premise of the thread. (Not likely, I know.)

Rhocam, so far you have presented only a series of unfalsifiable ad hoc fallacies that purport to explain your limited grasp of the nature of our biology, the planet earth and the wide wide universe.

Saying that the bible tells you that the universe is "just so" does not make it so. It is certainly not using the scientific method to test your beliefs.

No PhD for you, so far.

You've made some statements about the nature of the designer. Please, turn one of them into a testable hypothesis and tell how you would test it.

Offline rhocam

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The reason I turn to ID as evidence is not for me, Its so you will engage me in dialogue.
  ROFL.  Oh, of course it’s not for you.  Of course not, since I actually asked for evidence. You can’t provide any so you run away.  Cue the coconuts.  And on the risk of derailing this thread, here's a response to the usual Christian nonsense about slavery.
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Biblical slavery was closer to the slavery we know now, people who had no money did jobs for people who had money. American slavery is not found in the Bible, check it.
Sorry, Rhocam, but it is in the bible so you are lying again. You see, I was a Christian once and unlike many Christians, I read the bible.  I’m also quite familiar with the culture of that area during the purported time bible events were supposed to be happening.  You depend on ignorance to cling to your false beliefs.  The Israelites and many other cultures had slavery just like in the US during its first century or so.  They captured people and forced them to be slaves.  They did exactly like US slave owners did, forcing families apart, using the women as sex slaves, etc.  It was not only indentured servitude as so many Christians would try to claim.  Your own bible shows you are a liar: Leviticus 25:44-46; Exodus 21:7-11; Exodus 21:20-21; Ephesians 6:5 (slavery is good, obey your master); 1 Peter 2:18-19 (put up with being treated badly).  My favorite pro-slavery verse in the bible shows just how “family friendly” the bible is: 
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Exodus 21: If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.
What a nice law from God, choose between slavery and love.
No, Rhocam, I wouldn’t worship your god because it is either an idiot or imaginary, not simply because I don’t like it. I know quite a lot about your god though, having read the bible. If you want to claim that it’s wrong, then you’ll have to show me how you know what parts are the right ones and which aren’t?  What magic decoder ring do you use?  All Christains have one, and I do enjoy when their claims contradict each others.  Combine that with no Christian being able to do what JC said you could do and I’m pretty sure you are all simply wannabees.

I do like your argument though, since it shows that there is no way for you to really know what your god meant for you to do since you have no idea what parts of the bible screwups are from “sin”.  It could completely be wrong, and evidently your god doesn’t care who gets the message wrong.  But you in your preening arrogance, think that only you and those who agree with you are the TrueChristians.

You claim to have been a Christian once. So. I used to be an athiest once. I even believed evolution through high school. When I was I child I believed childish things, when I grew up I put those things behind me.
You are unwilling to accept that God is willing to Love whatever we give Him to work with.
He created us in His own image. We have taken what He created, and dragged it down to what it is now.
 God did not create slaves. Man turned fellow men into slaves. You take what is now and imply that this is the way God made it. No God made it and it was good. We have taken what He created and made this mess of it. The Biblical truth of His desire to be a part of our lives is not unfounded. The Fact that He is still willing to offer salvation to us through His Son does not invailidate His work. It displays a vested interest in us.

Offline rhocam

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So just an attempt to steer back to the premise of the thread. (Not likely, I know.)

Rhocam, so far you have presented only a series of unfalsifiable ad hoc fallacies that purport to explain your limited grasp of the nature of our biology, the planet earth and the wide wide universe.

Saying that the bible tells you that the universe is "just so" does not make it so. It is certainly not using the scientific method to test your beliefs.

No PhD for you, so far.

You've made some statements about the nature of the designer. Please, turn one of them into a testable hypothesis and tell how you would test it.

Oh no. I am so hurt. You are unwilling to give validity to God. Shocking!! I did give hypothesis and was told that although possible its probably not. And now your telling me that I don't meet your standards. I'm crushed. You ignore my evidence, write if off without serious investigation on your part. You are told that there is "probably" not a God, so you tell me there is "probably" not a God.

Offline rhocam

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How long do you have to work? How long can you stop working? You are a slave, you can't stop working, or you have no money. I have to get up go do what someone else wants me to, I am unable to do what i want most of the day. Do I have a choice? sure if I want my kids to go hungry

And that's not slavery, rhocam.  that's called working and responisiblity.   It's so nice to see you try to devalue the suffering of millions of people so you can excuse your storybook.

Nice to see you devalue the suffering of millons now by calling it working. We still have to do what we don't want to do for people most don't even like

Offline Azdgari

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Saying that people with paying jobs are "working" rather than "slaves" does not devalue their efforts.  Working can be very hard at times, but to call it slavery does a disservice to all those people who actually have been enslaved throughout history.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline Ivellios

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Rhoham, when you work... ahem, slave your day away... who gets the money you make, you to do with how you see fit: buy the home you want, the food you want, the possessions you want, etc. or does it go to your owner who decides for you: your home, your food, your wife? Does your 'owner' make your children work out in the fields because sending them to school takes away from thier profit? When you leave you job, ahem, slave master, can you take your wife and children with you, or must they stay with your owner?

Offline velkyn

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You claim to have been a Christian once. So. I used to be an athiest once. I even believed evolution through high school. When I was I child I believed childish things, when I grew up I put those things behind me.
   Believing in it is not the same as understanding it.  That is what you are asked to do and what you have obviously gone out of your way to avoid.  You attack a strawman and not the actual science.  So, again, not impressed by someone who is intentionally deceitful.  and golly, a bible quote.  Unfortunately for you, to actually do as you say, and if you wish to define evolutionary theory as “childish” by all means do so, you’ll have to put away your computer, your car, any reliance on modern medicine, your hybrized food, etc.  All of that is based on the same science that supported evolutionary theory, the Big Ban theory, etc.  I’m going to guess that you are too much of a liar and a hypocrite to actually put away all of the things that scientists have discovered and invented, to actually follow through on your claim.   

I noticed that you’ve ignored all of those inconvenient verses about slavery and how much effort your god supposedly has put into making laws about something that you want to claim that it doesn’t like.  You’ve also ignored my point about how your bible could be completely wrong.  Funny how that is, Rhocam, you have no idea if you have the right religion at all since you have no idea it any of it is true since there is no way for you to know which parts are from this god and which parts are from humans.   
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You are unwilling to accept that God is willing to Love whatever we give Him to work with.
  Nope, I’m not.  I just know that your bible says you are a liar. God hates liars, God hates the “sexually immoral”, etc.  All of them are condemned per your bible, to the lake of fire. 
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He created us in His own image. We have taken what He created, and dragged it down to what it is now.
Again, you fail, rhocam.  First, there is no evidence of any god creating anything, especially your particular god.  Please do show that man wasn’t created by any one of a thousand other creator gods that have been worshipped by humans.  Second, your bible says that your god controls everything, correct?  And he’s the one who either intentionally allowed the “snake” to talk to A&E and allowed them to eat of the tree of good and evil; or was too stupid to know that the “snake” was there and too stupid to know what would happen. Your god arranged for it, or was too stupid, for everything to play out like it supposedly has.  So much for omniscience and omnipotence. 
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God did not create slaves. Man turned fellow men into slaves. You take what is now and imply that this is the way God made it. No God made it and it was good. We have taken what He created and made this mess of it. The Biblical truth of His desire to be a part of our lives is not unfounded. The Fact that He is still willing to offer salvation to us through His Son does not invailidate His work. It displays a vested interest in us.

God created everything right?  Your bible says so, good and evil, Satan, etc. If he didn’t want it or need it, why make it?  Your god is ultimately responsible for everything.  Your god gave laws on how to deal with slaves rather than saying “Stop that!” Why is this, rhocam?   Poor little god, can’t do a thing on his own and puny humans are more powerful than him.  This god that supposedly could create a world, murder almost every human in flood, smites a man for daring to keep his magic box from falling over, conjure up plagues for Egypt, can’t stop slavery.  Tsk, not much of a god. 
I do enjoy when Christians depower their god to create an excuse and end up making their god ridiculous.  He encouraged his people to take slaves, including young girls to use as sex slaves.  Your god is a party to rape, Rho.  Just read your bible. Numbers gives a lovely review of how your god was all about accepting war booty for his temple.

Rhocam, you’ve obviously never actually read your bible (or a science book). You’ve let other tell you what it says and they’ve lied to you.  Your bible says that your god gives salvation on whim and intentionally damns people through no fault of their own.  Read Romans 9, if you want to see. I’m sure you’ll turn your head away.  This is not love, this is the actions of an abusive being.  There is nothing in your bible that shows this being wants to do any thing to humans other than to control them or harm them.  IF you think that is love, I feel sorry for you.  I’m in love, with my husband, and I would *never* act the way your god supposedly does.  It can’t even fulfill the bible’s own definition of love which is pretty funny. 


I've prayed even after becoming a atheist, figuring on that any god that really was loving and really was concerned would give me at least as much evidence as he supposedly did in the bible.  Funny how that never has happened.  So, so much for your baseless claims.

I love this
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Nice to see you devalue the suffering of millons now by calling it working. We still have to do what we don't want to do for people most don't even like
   Yep, I'm sure your master beats you, and like TS said, makes you give him all of the money that you earned, paying you nothing, making you live on what he gives you to eat and were he makes you live.  Why, if you try to run away, he'll beat you more or shoot or hang you!  Or does he make you buy all the things you need to live from the "company store" and keeps you in the mines until that is paied off   You have to everything they say, work when you are sick, even give your children to him so they can be put to work too.  ;D Oh, how I love Christians when they show their true desperation.

Rho, wehre is your evidence for ID, dear.  Or is it that you have none and are just one more lying creationist who is wsting our time?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 02:14:45 PM by velkyn »
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Offline Brad the Bold

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Oh no. I am so hurt. You are unwilling to give validity to God. Shocking!! I did give hypothesis and was told that although possible its probably not. And now your telling me that I don't meet your standards. I'm crushed. You ignore my evidence, write if off without serious investigation on your part. You are told that there is "probably" not a God, so you tell me there is "probably" not a God.

I did nothing of the kind.

The premise of thread is that intelligent design is to be tested using the scientific method. The standard I'm holding ID to is not my own, but the basic standards of scientific investigation.

I have not invalidated your God or your faith. They are an untestible hypothesis.  The point is that religious beliefs are not science and should not be presented as such.

Did I miss the post where you presented a falsifiable hypothesis, and how you would test it. It appears to me that you ran down my list of potential questions to test, assuming the existance of an intelligent designer, and "answered" them as if they were obvious.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Damn, I forgot to insult rhocam again. When I don't, he doesn't respond to my posts. Since I'm not a believer it's not natural for me to diss the crap out of other humans, but I guess I gotta do it. It's going to take awhile to think something up. You guys keep at it. And don't let him get away.
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Offline Turbo SS

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How long do you have to work? How long can you stop working? You are a slave, you can't stop working, or you have no money. I have to get up go do what someone else wants me to, I am unable to do what i want most of the day. Do I have a choice? sure if I want my kids to go hungry

And that's not slavery, rhocam.  that's called working and responisiblity.   It's so nice to see you try to devalue the suffering of millions of people so you can excuse your storybook.

Nice to see you devalue the suffering of millons now by calling it working. We still have to do what we don't want to do for people most don't even like

Why did you ignore the verse about beating the slaves? :?

Offline Brad the Bold

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Damn, I forgot to insult rhocam again. When I don't, he doesn't respond to my posts. Since I'm not a believer it's not natural for me to diss the crap out of other humans, but I guess I gotta do it. It's going to take awhile to think something up. You guys keep at it. And don't let him get away.

I didn't insult him either, but he pretended that I did, and used it as a pretense to ignore my request for a testible hypothesis based on ID theory.

So, I guess I'm special.  :)