Does belief in an afterlife show a lack of maturity?

[The Wannabe]

Death seems to be one of the few things that we're certain of, it's inevitable. [1]  I understand why ancient man would create the concept of life after death as a way of coping with our fear of mortality, but in this modern age it seems more then a little childish to cling to a belief that is so plainly the product of human wish fulfillment. 

When a girls cat dies, her father will assure her there is assuredly a cat heaven and that Freckles is no doubt playing with a ball of yarn the size of the moon in a feline version of Hogwarts as they speak.  While the dad's claims of a cat afterlife may be very consoling to the grieving girl, anyone over the age of ten knows he's full of shit.  The dad is playing on her naivety, and making baseless assertions that are meant to shield her from a harsh reality that she is not yet mature enough to face.  Her cat is dead.

Why is it so hard for Christians (and theist in general) to see that their belief in an afterlife is the adult equivalent of a little girls belief in cat heaven?  Are they also lacking the maturity needed to face reality?

1.	"Brief and powerless is man's life; on him and all his race the slow, sure doom falls pitiless and dark." - Bertrand Russell

[One Above All]

Not directly, no. The fact that they are unwilling to accept the inevitable, however, does.

[Khyran Storm]

I think it comes down to the basic reasons most religions were founded in the first place; 1. to answer questions about the world that these people had no other answers for, 2. fear (of death, of nature, of injustice, of disease, etc) 3. social interactions and acceptance.

Just because humanity as a whole has made a lot of intellectual and technological advancements, doesn't mean that much of the above needs have been satisfied. I do agree that it shows some amount of mental immaturity on the part of the faithful; lets face it- most people just aren't capable of dealing with a finite existence. They need that security blanket; a mental and psychological crutch.

I've been trying to understand how and why people do what they do for quite a while, now (I'm almost 40), and sometimes I can only shake my head in disbelief at some of the willful denial people are capable of. It's these sorts of moments that make me wonder just how far we've really come.

BTW, this is my first post. Will be contributing a bit here and there (and will make an intro thread, when able). Been lurking for a while.  Greetings to everyone. I feel like I know many of you already. Heh, hope that didn't sound too creepy.

edited, because, yeah, its my first post, so I'm still learning.

[Nick]

Same mentallity telling the girl to be good so Santa will bring presents.  Then we move to the God figure.

[plethora]

It's not just plain immaturity. The reasons for belief are more complex than that.

There's the built in predisposition humans have to assume that our perceived authority figures are mostly right (parents, elders, respected members of the community, etc) ... and as social animals, there's a built in desire to belong to a group and follow whatever is popular among the group. (i.e. Most of my family/community believes this, they can't all be wrong so I believe it too).

As humans, our brains are highly evolved, capable of complex abstract thought and particularly good at finding patterns and correlating events. That ability helps us plan, understand, invent and do extraordinary things other species cannot do. The by-product of this ability is that we find correlations and patterns where there aren't any really. Combine this with ignorance about something and next thing you know we're making shit up and religions are born.

We find the idea of living forever in some form or another appealing, due to our natural instinct to preserve ourselves and avoid death at all costs.

So I wouldn't say it's immature to believe in an afterlife ... I'd say it's primitive to do so.

The dad is playing on her naivety, and making baseless assertions that are meant to shield her from a harsh reality that she is not yet mature enough to face.  Her cat is dead.

I think it's much healthier to let the child understand that death is natural. Let them know that it's okay to be sad and guide them through their grief until they get over it. They learn to cope with reality and be content with that instead of having the wool pulled over their eyes.

My kid has understood what death is since age 3. When she was 5, her grandmother (who had been living with us throughout my daughter's whole life) died. My daughter understood from the very beginning that her grandmother was gone forever. Of course there was some grief, but we helped her through it in a positive manner and she got over it. She's fine.

One can be content with reality. One can find happiness within the confines of reality. There's really no need for any bullshit. All you need is some tact.

[on:bread:alone]

before i say what i'm going to say... i'm a pessimist, a nihilist and very, very paranoid. with that said... you have to hand it to the corrupt genius of the guys that thought up religion. or at least to the guys that figured out how to manipulate people with it. it's all just scare tactics... same as santa clause. it's leverage used to retain control.

just this morning, i was in downtown clearwater (florida)... we're the scientologist capitol of the world. i was waiting for a bus, enjoying a reasonably cool morning, and i'm looking around at all these cultists. they all dress the same, none of them will even look at you (which is fine by me... i've got enough crazy, i don't need theirs too)... and it kinda freaked me out and made me sad at the same time. people can actually convince themselves to believe in cosmic space angels and sky-daddies and all this preposterous hooey, and all because someone wrote it down and sold it, and apprently did a damn good job.

slightly related, i went through a rough spot a few years back where i kinda lost myself somewhere between severe insomnia and self-medication. i spent countless hours at night watching television, and those are the hours of infomercials and televangelism. so basically, all fucked up in the head and all i could see was people trying to sell me shit i don't need. but you know, so many people are calling up and buying oxy-clean and slap-chops and donating half their life's savings to some fast talking snake-oil salesman because he appeals to their sense of fear with his hellfire and brimstone talk... or to their sense of faith with the laying on of hands and the talking in tounges.

it makes me wonder... am i missing some part of my brain that allows me to silently chew my cud and enjoy it? or is everyone really that fucked up?

[velkyn]

to me, to cling to a belief in an afterlife only shows fear.  And often greed.   Pleth also has a good point, it is amazingly primitive.

and OBA, you're intelligent, so I'm guessing that yuo actually use your brain as opposed to the sheeple.  IMO, most humans are lazy and not too intelligent and they glom onto easy answers that make them feel special.   Unforunately, intelligence and using it fully, often seems to be accompanied by some mental health issues.  For instance, my bipolar husband and me with anxiety.

[wright]

to me, to cling to a belief in an afterlife only shows fear.  And often greed.   Pleth also has a good point, it is amazingly primitive.

and OBA, you're intelligent, so I'm guessing that yuo actually use your brain as opposed to the sheeple.  IMO, most humans are lazy and not too intelligent and they glom onto easy answers that make them feel special.   Unforunately, intelligence and using it fully, often seems to be accompanied by some mental health issues.  For instance, my bipolar husband and me with anxiety.

Lotta good points there, velkyn. By you and others. Intelligence and pattern-finding are great, but considering the compromises evolution has made with other parts of our minds and bodies, it makes sense (pattern-finding again!  ) that they would have some corresponding drawbacks.

And welcome to the forum, Storm.

[jaimehlers]

I've always thought that things that die have the potential to live on, but not in some fantastic afterlife.  They live on through the changes they make in the rest of us.  I mean, we still remember George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, because the things they did still reverberate through us today.  They, themselves, aren't alive, but the memory of them is.  Even some really ancient people still "live on" today through the same thing.  I mean, who hasn't heard of Julius Caesar?  Or the Three Hundred of Sparta?

[Tero]

It's all about loneliness. They cant face the fact that you are the only one that matters. Emotional attachment to friends amd family here and forever. The loneliness of death is what they cant face. They need to share that too.

Religion is a feeling. When we have no religion, they assume we have no feeling, no guilt.

[One Above All]

It's all about loneliness. They cant face the fact that you are the only one that matters.

That's not loneliness, nor is it true. Other people matter just as much, if not more so, than you.

[ParkingPlaces]

First of all, welcome Khyran Storm. I would add to your list of reasons for religion the need for some people to control others, be it for malevolent reasons or otherwise.

I don't think "immature" is the right word, even though the belief does not point directly at maturity. There are religions that don't believe in an afterlife, and they are equally messed up otherwise.

Wishful thinking in and of itself is not immature. I'm pretty sure that if I were trapped in a car sinking to the bottom of a river one of my last thoughts would be to wish I wasn't there. And I don't think anybody would begrudge me that. A more salient point is that it is just plain not useful. It causes people to focus at least some of their attention on a period of time that will be irrelevant for them. The old Ram Das mantra, "be here now" was silly enough. "Be there then" is no improvement.

Having unsubstantiated notions of a continued existence adds to that distortion field that we call reality reality. I for one prefer that all the things I am wrong about be discoverable. That way I can improve from time to time, when more and better information comes along. Being wrong about something unprovable is a total waste of brain cells.

[Hatter23]

to me, to cling to a belief in an afterlife only shows fear.  And often greed.   Pleth also has a good point, it is amazingly primitive.

and OBA, you're intelligent, so I'm guessing that yuo actually use your brain as opposed to the sheeple.  IMO, most humans are lazy and not too intelligent and they glom onto easy answers that make them feel special.   Unforunately, intelligence and using it fully, often seems to be accompanied by some mental health issues.  For instance, my bipolar husband and me with anxiety.

Plus there's a fairly strong correlation between Autism(or Asbergers) and atheism. Yes, it does make it diffult with that contentented cud chewing

[fishjie]

Humans are irrational by definition so of course they'd want to believe in the afterlife.   It was always kind of the opposite for me.   I was afraid of living *forever*, and I would lie awake in bed at night trying to wrap my head around the concept of infinity.   It seemed like a long fucking time.     

That being said, I wouldn't mind living a long ass time, or reincarnation.      So I can totally understand people's fears.   Its how they comfort themselves when they lose a loved one, or if they have a shitty life.    Consider someone living in a third world country where they grow up in poverty and get shit on by everyone.    Clinging to this idea of a magical paradise is what keeps them from putting a bullet in their brains, because realistically speaking, they have no shot of improving their life so wtf is the point of existence for them?    To suffer more?   That's fucking awful.

Compare to someone living in a wealthier nation.    They don't need that crutch.    Religion is inversely correlated with wealth/education, so of course to us it seems silly.   But it gives poor and stupid people hope.     Sucks to be them!

[Tero]

It's all about loneliness. They cant face the fact that you are the only one that matters.

That's not loneliness, nor is it true. Other people matter just as much, if not more so, than you.

It's more of a philosophical issue, you can never get anyone's head, despite our empathy.

[One Above All]

It's more of a philosophical issue, you can never get anyone's head, despite our empathy.

It's not a philosophical issue. Who will be here after you're gone? Nobody? Or the hundreds of humans whom you've had contact with?

[Khyran Storm]

Thanks for the welcome. 

Anyway, I most definitely agree that the desire to control and influence others is a common thread in religious contemplation ('we're the Chosen', etc.). But for the purpose of this topic, I didn't include it. Examining the reasoning behind the desire for an afterlife, at least if you're just trying to incorporate it into your beliefs to mollify your fears, didn't really make the 'control' angle one that I felt applied. After some thought, though, maybe that is incorrect.

Afterall, controlling this method by which one can attain the aforementioned afterlife (you gotta pray to Our Poppa only the way we say you can, or you ain't goin'), is directly on point. Interesting. Considering the motivation of the controlling entity, it makes me wonder if their desire to attain an afterlife is really a concern, or if they merely feel that they will be rewarded in the 'hereafter' for their diligence in spreading the 'correct' way to know their god.

Of course, IMO, I think it kind of matters what nature of afterlife awaits me. In the OP, its regarding seeing loved ones, friends and family, pets, et al. Some have pointed out that many wouldn't appreciate an everlasting existence, that this would be more of a burden than a boon. For me, personally, I think I would be just fine with an extended existence as long as I could explore and continue to learn new things. Seeing and learning about the nature of the universe would be about as fantastic as it gets. To look into a quasar, or witness a star being born, or a nova. Checking out other galaxies...just, wow.  Sorry. Gets my nerdiness up a bit thinking about this kinda stuff.

Then again, maybe in another 20 or 30 years (if I live that long), I could just say 'meh, I'm tired and wanna take a long nap. Learnin' is for them youngers.' I hope not, but you never know. That, and you know, the whole 'I don't really believe in spiritual hooey, anyway' stuff. Atheist, and all...

[Tero]

It's more of a philosophical issue, you can never get anyone's head, despite our empathy.

It's not a philosophical issue. Who will be here after you're gone? Nobody? Or the hundreds of humans whom you've had contact with?

True, but Im trying to get into their thought process. They think there is some telepathy when they pray together. "a bigger whole"

[fishjie]

no, it has nothing to do with telepathy.    praying together in a packed room is a pretty powerful emotional experience, that's why people do it.   its kind of like going to a live sports game.   or a live music concert.  everyone feeds off each other's energy.    its not the same as just watching alone on your tv.     

[Tero]

That again is true. But for the believer the illusion of a whole they join is "real". A group mind orgasm.

[fishjie]

it is real, at least in their heads anyway.    the rush/high i got from my religious experience truly is a group orgasm.    just like the high i get when i do drugs.   its real.   its just chemicals in the brain.     

and that is why people use religious experience, even though its a totally subjective and emotional state, to validate their beliefs.   sure everyone else from the outside looking in recognizes it for what it is, but not the person who is high.   

[atheola]

I hate to point out the absurdity obviously simple truth that none of us have died personally so all our own posturing about our own 'intellectual prowess' while proably factual none has yet to be proven because dead men tell no tales.... yeah, probably one big run on sentence.. these dinky phone keys make editing strange..

[joebbowers]

There is no afterlife, of any kind. Anyone who believes in it is stupid and yes, OP, immature.

[atheola]

I doubt there is an afterlife, but I also don't recall having died for more than a moment or so in hospitals. If I do rise from the dead I'll keep ya posted.

[The Wannabe]

I hate to point out the absurdity obviously simple truth that none of us have died personally so all our own posturing about our own 'intellectual prowess' while proably factual none has yet to be proven because dead men tell no tales.... yeah, probably one big run on sentence.. these dinky phone keys make editing strange..

The gist of my post was that it is immature to believe in an afterlife that is postulated by the decidedly fallible living.  If there was verifiable proof that religious claims were the product of something other than blind human speculation and wish fulfillment, then maybe i would give these claims some credence.  Even so, you would still have all your work ahead of you, as there are a plethora of supernatural creeds to choose from.  Mormon or catholic, sunni or shiite, scientology or wicca, decisions, decisions.

[atheola]

Im not backing religion in any way and Im almost certain when I die I merely rot in a box, but I still haven't died so there may be eternal life, but it's just millions of organisms feeding on my carcass passing me onto generations forever...It's still mere speculation.

[Tero]

There is also the bit about molecules. In order for something to exist, you usually need to put it together with molecules. Complex structures are usually made of stuff. Simple things like lightning might have a large energy component.

[fishjie]

Well we do live forever.    The stuff that comprises our body returns to the universe which is indestructible.    Eventually, some of those molecules will recombine to form new life, which is kind of like reincarnation.    That's kind of how I look at it.   I also believe that life exists as a way for the universe to understand itself.   I know its a pretty far out there idea, but I prefer it to all the other religions out there.    I think Carl Sagan, a fellow pothead, first came up with that idea.     

Is there any way to prove it?  NOPE.     Is there any evidence for it?  NOPE.     but damn I find it poetic.

[atheola]

Make sure to document everything after you die.