Author Topic: How Stupid Was Adam.........  (Read 3226 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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How Stupid Was Adam.........
« on: February 09, 2012, 12:35:03 PM »
So God places Adam in the Paradise Garden with the fliest of fruit trees and vines imaginable. At least 2 of them a magical trees in that one will grant god-like knowledge with the other granting eternal life. Why didn't Adam's ass make his very first damn bite a bite off of the Tree of Life then backdoor and eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Offline One Above All

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2012, 12:38:36 PM »
The snake "tricked" Eve (by telling the truth) into eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, who then offered its fruit to Adam. They weren't stupid, they just didn't have any knowledge of what they were doing.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 12:39:47 PM »
For the same reason the Three Bears didn't lock their front door when they went out for a walk.

For the same reason that the witch crouched in front of the hot oven to show Hansel how to be thrown in.

Offline velkyn

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 12:42:22 PM »
hmmm, so even God can't kill an immortal? :)  And he could have gotten off scotfree for eating from that one since god is only protective of the tree of G&E.   
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“You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

of course this forgets that in the first version of the story, no magic trees are present and "every" plant is perfectly fine for A&E to eat.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2012, 12:44:46 PM »
The same reason Kid Icaris flew too close to the sun...

but in all seriousness, I thought the price of sin was death so why would there be a tree of everlasting life if there was no death?

Offline One Above All

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2012, 12:46:41 PM »
The same reason Kid Icaris flew too close to the sun...

but in all seriousness, I thought the price of sin was death so why would there be a tree of everlasting life if there was no death?

Just because the price for sin is death doesn't mean that death couldn't occur. That's like saying that you need to pay $1 for a burger, but that if you don't buy burgers, you won't spend any money.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 12:51:37 PM »

Just because the price for sin is death doesn't mean that death couldn't occur. That's like saying that you need to pay $1 for a burger, but that if you don't buy burgers, you won't spend any money.

But the tree existed before they ate the fruit which as I understand caused humans to not only be kicked out of paradise and to have to work the land and have pain during child birth... but also death.

It'd be like having day and night before the sun was created... wait.  :o

Offline One Above All

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 12:53:07 PM »
But the tree existed before they ate the fruit which as I understand caused humans to not only be kicked out of paradise and to have to work the land and have pain during child birth... but also death.

That was not my understanding at all. IIRC, the tree simply gave them knowledge of good and evil. They were not immortal before.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 12:55:34 PM »
But the tree existed before they ate the fruit which as I understand caused humans to not only be kicked out of paradise and to have to work the land and have pain during child birth... but also death.

If you read the pertinent section of Genesis closely, you will see that it does not state anywhere that Adam and/or Eve were immortal.  It doesn't even imply it.  To the shock of absolutely no one here at WWGHA, this has led to all kinds of disagreement (among believers and nonbelievers alike) about whether they were immortal at first, and if so, whether the tree had anything to do with it.

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It'd be like having day and night before the sun was created... wait.  :o

Well, yes, there is that...
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 12:59:02 PM »
For all we know, maybe they were already eating from the tree of life...do we know they were not? Maybe it's like the sort of potion which keeps you alive and youthful indefinitely as long as you keep taking it. With their banishment from Eden, thus no access to the tree of life, they would continue on to age & die?

Makes as much sense as anything else.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 01:00:52 PM »
For all we know, maybe they were already eating from the tree of life...do we know they were not? Maybe it's like the sort of potion which keeps you alive and youthful indefinitely as long as you keep taking it. With their banishment from Eden, thus no access to the tree of life, they would continue on to age & die?

Makes as much sense as anything else.

Yes, it does, and that's the view that some people do take -- I think our own Graybeard is one of them, IIRC.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 01:27:06 PM »
The same reason Kid Icaris flew too close to the sun...

but in all seriousness, I thought the price of sin was death so why would there be a tree of everlasting life if there was no death?

It was spiritual death!  Duuh!  Why can't you atheists understand?  Just because it doesn't say anything about spiritual death it obviously had to be spiritual death, because they obviously didn't die and the bible obviously cannot be wrong about anything.  God!  What's so hard to understand?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 01:28:55 PM »
It was spiritual death!  Duuh!  Why can't you atheists understand?  Just because it doesn't say anything about spiritual death it obviously had to be spiritual death, because they obviously didn't die and the bible obviously cannot be wrong about anything.  God!  What's so hard to understand?

They did die. Almost one thousand years later, IIRC.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 01:35:22 PM »
Here's my take on why Adam was riding the short bus.

Initially God and His Host were in a gathering like the one mentioned in Psalms 82 and some of them were like, "Mr. YHWH Sir, we are bored. Why won't you create any more sentient beings to inhabit this vast expanding universe?"

God
Sentient life is detrimental to itself and ultimately everything it encounters. It's a bad idea.

Smart Host Member
"Master, is that why we do not have free will?"

God
You do have a will of your own, it's just not fully free due to the limitations the fact that you all aren't G-d in the sense that I am. So, pretty much.

Other Host Guys
"What is freewill? Can we have it?

God
Trust me, you really don't want to go there.

Smart Host dude
"You're right, but Master, can you just give it to a 3rd of us so that the rest can see what happens?"

God
I told you what would happen. Is that not enough?

Smart Host Dude
"Of course it is G-d, but I don't think everyone fully grasps it so I'll make the sacrifice and bite the bullet.

God
You sure you want to do that? Everyone's gonna end up hating you and blaming all the universe's problems on you and by extension Me. I can handle the criticism and the burden of being G-d. Do you want that burden without all the bells and whistles that come with actually being G-d?

Smart Host Dude
"Sure, why not. I'm bored with my day job anyway."

God
Cool, I'll give you what you ask and place you in a world of living sentient beings where you can do your thang. The rest of us will watch as the drama plays out.

Smart Host Dude
"So I get to be the God of this world?"

God
Kinda, but not quite. If I create sentient beings will freewill to inhabit the world, you go have to convince them to get on bored.

Smart Host Dude
"No problem. I'll show you that sentient life can thrive and be as good as the Host has always been."

God
We'll see how that will work for you. I give you a chance to change your mind, you sure you wanna do this? I'm tellin' you, It's gonna end badly for you and I'm gonna have to step in and get my hands dirty. it's just not a good look.

Smart Host Dude
"I hear you G-d, but I got this."

God
Good luck. Now let there be light.........Let the waters swarm with living creatures...........Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind...........and Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

Smart Host Dude
"Hey 1/3 of the Stars, we go make it do what it damn do, ya' heard me!"

God
I can hit the rewind button. You sure you wanna go thru with this? For the last time I'm telling you, it's gonna end badly for you and your clique. Sentient free-willed beings are ultimately self serving (look at me) and ones that aren't God don't have the foresight and ability to right wrongs they create and undue the fuckuptedness that ensues the way I can. In addition, they not even that smart.

Smart Host Dude
"C'mon G. The dude looks like you would if you were contained by time and space, he can't be all bad, plus he's got me here to influence him."

God
Okay enough, this some bullshit! If I let this all play out cats go call me the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
I cannot give this man knowledge of good and bad.

The Host
"But Mr. YHWH Sir, you've already created him, can't we see how this great contraversy (shout out to Ellen White) plays out?"

God
So you all think it's a game. Fine, I'll let it play out for you, but just to prove I am right at the jump I'ma take away the man's Host-like knowledge and good and evil and make him into what we call mortal. I will then tell him that he can have knowledge of good and evil if he eats from this tree I'll place in the midst of the paradise I created for him. I will then tell him that if he eats from this tree he will surely die and I will also create a magic tree of life and place it in the same damn garden paradise that I will explain will give him immortality should he eat from it.
Now watch what his dumb ass go do...............

 

Offline screwtape

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 01:36:07 PM »
They did die. Almost one thousand years later, IIRC.

yeah, that's what I meant.  I was just so offended I forgot to type that part.  They didn't die right away physically.  They died spiritually right away.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 01:48:34 PM »
Truth,

I kinda wanna hear the rest of that version you were typing... That sounds like a book I could get into. See, sometimes its just in how you put things that makes all the difference.

Offline Nick

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 02:38:54 PM »
Adam who?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 03:03:32 PM »
The snake "tricked" Eve (by telling the truth) into eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, who then offered its fruit to Adam. They weren't stupid, they just didn't have any knowledge of what they were doing.
Soon as they ate from one tree,knowledge gained,,,,enough to eat from the other tree to outsmart IDIOT God. Of course it is all fiction,we must remember that important point.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 03:05:20 PM »
Soon as they ate from one tree,knowledge gained,,,,enough to eat from the other tree to outsmart IDIOT God. Of course it is all fiction,we must remember that important point.

They were basically robots. No free will; their only "directive" was to worship YHWH, so they didn't even try.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 03:13:00 PM »
Soon as they ate from one tree,knowledge gained,,,,enough to eat from the other tree to outsmart IDIOT God. Of course it is all fiction,we must remember that important point.
lets expand on this idea that yahweh is/was an idiot. Now the bible is a very long book which goes into details about his many many failures. This is precisely why Pascals Wager doesnt worry me even if god does exist and it is the god of the bible that is real. I just dont have enough faith that he is capable of carrying out his plan of eternal torment without humans foiling it. Of course its not faith because I base it off of the apparent facts in his autobiography... the bible.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 03:16:28 PM »
Soon as they ate from one tree,knowledge gained,,,,enough to eat from the other tree to outsmart IDIOT God. Of course it is all fiction,we must remember that important point.

They were basically robots. No free will; their only "directive" was to worship YHWH, so they didn't even try.
The "knowledge" gained from eating from the first tree would make ME immediatly eat from the second tree.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 03:17:30 PM »
lets expand on this idea that yahweh is/was an idiot. Now the bible is a very long book which goes into details about his many many failures. This is precisely why Pascals Wager doesnt worry me even if god does exist and it is the god of the bible that is real. I just dont have enough faith that he is capable of carrying out his plan of eternal torment without humans foiling it. Of course its not faith because I base it off of the apparent facts in his autobiography... the bible.
indeed.  dumb gods are a dime a dozen in the bronze/iron age.  with this god's amazing ineptitude, hell will empty. 
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 03:20:21 PM »
Soon as they ate from one tree,knowledge gained,,,,enough to eat from the other tree to outsmart IDIOT God. Of course it is all fiction,we must remember that important point.
lets expand on this idea that yahweh is/was an idiot. Now the bible is a very long book which goes into details about his many many failures. This is precisely why Pascals Wager doesnt worry me even if god does exist and it is the god of the bible that is real. I just dont have enough faith that he is capable of carrying out his plan of eternal torment without humans foiling it. Of course its not faith because I base it off of the apparent facts in his autobiography... the bible.
Of course God is/was an IDIOT. look at how many times he failed humanity. The first thing you can look at is why he would let Adam and Eve live after eating from the tree? He(God) could have easily killed them and started over. Why if they were equal to God but not immortal like God would he(god) let their bloodline continue?

Just KILL A&E and start fresh
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Offline The Wannabe

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 03:56:35 PM »
Well, if you look at the actual narrative there's a verse (Genesis 3:22) that reads:  And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.  He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever"

It seems like Yahweh withheld the tree of life from humanity after A&E acquired the knowledge of good and evil so that man wouldn't become "like one of us".  If i didn't know any better, it would seem the almighty, all knowing creator of the cosmos felt threatened by Adam and Co.  But what's REALLY great about this verse is that it implies that there's more then one deity hanging out up there.  Church friends have tried to explain this away with the trinity, but isn't the trinity at its core really just a way for christian apologists to have their polytheistic cake, re-brand it as a "monotheistic" cake, and then eat it too?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 04:17:50 PM »
  But what's REALLY great about this verse is that it implies that there's more then one deity hanging out up there.  Church friends have tried to explain this away with the trinity, but isn't the trinity at its core really just a way for christian apologists to have their polytheistic cake, re-brand it as a "monotheistic" cake, and then eat it too?

The Biblical narratives very rarely if ever present a monotheistic concept. What a reader instead sees is a henotheistic view of deity that has a pantheon of deities all subordinate to the "Father Deity", presummably YHWH.

Offline velkyn

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 04:19:53 PM »
how stupid was Adam....

he listened to Eve over his supposed magic god?  Did she make a good argument after eating that apple, being all smart now and him still rather dumb? :)
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 04:29:05 PM »
Well, if you look at the actual narrative there's a verse (Genesis 3:22) that reads:  And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.  He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever"

It seems like Yahweh withheld the tree of life from humanity after A&E acquired the knowledge of good and evil so that man wouldn't become "like one of us".  If i didn't know any better, it would seem the almighty, all knowing creator of the cosmos felt threatened by Adam and Co.  But what's REALLY great about this verse is that it implies that there's more then one deity hanging out up there.  Church friends have tried to explain this away with the trinity, but isn't the trinity at its core really just a way for christian apologists to have their polytheistic cake, re-brand it as a "monotheistic" cake, and then eat it too?
Indeed.

The trinity just doesnt work for their explanations because it supposedly references "the word" and jesus, when the writer, Moses, would have had no knowledge of either. It assumes knowledge not yet revealed. Its obvious that the writer still believed in ALL the gods of the different tribes at the time. Or maybe yahweh and the gods are up there playing spades and drinkin jungle juice... they didnt want us to join so they left us on earth and created college.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 04:40:45 PM by The Gawd »

Offline magicmiles

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 04:47:25 PM »
how stupid was Adam....

he listened to Eve over his supposed magic god?  Did she make a good argument after eating that apple, being all smart now and him still rather dumb? :)

Yes, it's a strange concept, a man being tempted by the promise of something better than he currently has. I don't think it's happened since.
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Offline The Wannabe

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Re: How Stupid Was Adam.........
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 04:55:40 PM »
how stupid was Adam....

he listened to Eve over his supposed magic god?  Did she make a good argument after eating that apple, being all smart now and him still rather dumb? :)

It does seem like we're rather better off having "eaten of the fruit".  The knowledge of good and evil has allowed the once destitute humans to create society and culture, systems of ethics, medicine, and eventually modern science (yay!).  The alternative of course was living forever as Yaweh's blissfully ignorant sock puppets. 

I'm sure Eve had quite the persuasive argument for her husband, although i'm not so sure Adam had the capacity to understand it, not having yet obtained the knowledge of good and evil and all.  &) 
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