Poll

Will the SuperPac millions spent influence your choice for president?

Yes, the way the money is spent will help me decide who to vote for
0 (0%)
It is a waste of money and will not influence my decision.
5 (55.6%)
Other
4 (44.4%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: Obama Caves in on SuperPac  (Read 409 times)

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Offline shnozzola

Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« on: February 08, 2012, 07:35:18 PM »
With Obama caving into the grand presidential superpac cornucopia, I started to wonder if the vast sums spent are as unnecessary as it seems.  After Nixon and Watergate, I pretty much became a Dem.  I voted for Carter (who I very much admire), Carter, Nobody, George HW Bush (who I also very much admire),Clinton, Clinton , Gore, Kerry, Obama.   It doesn’t seem to me any amount of SuperPac money would have made a difference.  I pretty much know what person and policies I want long before the attack dogs arrive.  While this poll may not be too well constructed, I wanted to get an idea if others feel the same.

 Can you imagine what could be done with that superpac money if spent wisely – say, all money spent went to improve lifelong benefits, hospitals, and support for our veterans.

Are that many Americans unsure of a choice between Barack and anybody that the money matters?  Especially when rep and dem policies are so far apart.

Having said that, lets say John Huntsman wanted to be president so badly he ran as an independent, refusing superpac money, embracing healthcare reform, cutting 1 percent federal government spending evenly across the board, and raising taxes on the wealthy to pre- Bush levels – I might reconsider voting for Obama.  But the media and debates, without George Soros vs the Koch Bros., would tell me everything I need to know.

I remember Senator Bill Bradley running an early internet campaign in 2000, and I liked the guy, but maybe he was too middle of the road, and against Clinton, just couldn’t light it up.  But Bradley’s view of the money needed seemed more realistic than Obama’s. 
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 07:47:34 PM »
I remember Senator Bill Bradley running an early internet campaign in 2000, and I liked the guy, but maybe he was too middle of the road, and against Clinton, ...

You may want to correct that sentence.

Offline Nick

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 08:06:18 PM »
The way things are now you have to play on a level playing field...or as level as possible.  After this election, if Obama wins I would hope he would pursue legislation to get this kind of money shut down.  The money, the manipulation of voting, etc. has really divided Americans from the process.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 08:18:19 PM »
I tend to agree.  But it might be an indication that I'm close-minded on considering a conservative candidate.  I listened to McCain when he came to our work place in 2008, and I listened to Huntsman when he did the same in 2011.  They both seemed nice enough in person, and they both had some interesting things to say.  But it always breaks down for me.

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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 08:19:32 PM »
If money is a megaphone, it's foolish to ignore all the noise your opponents are making.[1]

Largely the only reason people have a problem with President Obama has been the relentless attacks on him, going all the way back to before he was elected and never, for a single moment letting up.  The reason that was able to happen was vast sums of money and political zealotry.  President Obama's poltical counterparts have no problem flatly lying about their intentions, or lying about the outcome of their own actions.

How often do you see Conservatives talking about how Obama had a 'Super Majority' for XX period of time and scoffing that he didn't do anything with it?  I can tell you right now, it's a lot more often than you see people pointing out that said super majority only existed for about 45 days[2]

In the war of propaganda, the President is on the losing side.  He has been for a long time, despite his many accomplishments.  Heck, based purely on his record, he should be on the Republican ticket of 20 years ago.


Besides, for what it's worth, he doesn't have a choice about the so called 'super pacs'.  They're free to do what they want without his permission, that's the whole point of a pac.
 1. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/03/koch-brothers-100-million-obama_n_1250828.html
 2. From the time Franken[1]. was seated to the time Kennedy died, and was littered with blue dogs.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 08:22:38 PM »
I remember Senator Bill Bradley running an early internet campaign in 2000, and I liked the guy, but maybe he was too middle of the road, and against Clinton, ...

You may want to correct that sentence.

Yeah, sorry, I guess it was our man Gore - hmmm, why did Bradley lose? :?  Maybe Gore  $, which blows my whole theory sky high - back to the drawing board.   :-[
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 08:34:48 PM »
Thanks for the links, MB.

Yeah, my opinion is uninformed, and idealistic.

But,
Quote
The fact that the wealthy conservative donors pledged $100 million for the 2012 elections shows how intent they are on trying to get Obama out of office -- and previews how intense, and likely nasty, the general election will be.

There are limits on how much an individual can give to a political candidate. Therefore, much of the money pledged at the recent gathering will likely go to super PACs or nonprofits that can spend and accept unlimited amounts of funds. GOP primary voters have already gotten a glimpse of how the political system looks with super PACs around: record amounts of money spent on a large number of negative ads in the early primary states.

I guess I'm still  surprised the Koch Bros. 100 million will change many minds.  Maybe like you are saying, Jetson, hard to stand in the middle and view a conservative w/o my liberal glasses.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 08:38:07 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Frank

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 03:22:11 PM »
Quote
There are limits on how much an individual can give to a political candidate. Therefore, much of the money pledged at the recent gathering will likely go to super PACs or nonprofits that can spend and accept unlimited amounts of funds. GOP primary voters have already gotten a glimpse of how the political system looks with super PACs around: record amounts of money spent on a large number of negative ads in the early primary states.


As far as I know Romney has more money than than the rest put together yet it is by no means certain that he will be the GOPs choice come November. Santorum appears to have had a recent surge and he has far less money to splurge slagging off his opponents.

The fact is that in any election the vast majority of those who actually vote know who they are going to vote for long before the election and no amount of money spent on negative advertising will change their minds.

You need more than money to win elections. You also need an electable candidate and no amount of money can disguise the fact the GOP just don't have one. In these days of the internet it is easy to find out about those who would try to garner our votes and the GOP boys are nothing more than a bunch of nutters carrying more baggage than the luggage carousel in Heathrow airport.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 08:44:15 PM »
I don't think the GOP needs an electable candidate to win the White House.

I think it's a pretty fair assumption that other than a few ardent Ron Paul supporters, most of the Conservatives will fall in line and vote for whomever is on the Republican ticket at election time.  Even if it's Santorum.

Look at the last US election.  President Obama won by a landslide of... ten million votes.  This with an eligible voter base of 208,323,000 people.

To win the White House with a smaller vote there are a few things the Republicans can do.  They can try (again) to enact a proportional assignment of delegate votes based on individual counties.  So, for a state with an imaginary 50 counties, if 30 from the countryside voted Red and the remaining 20 in the cities voted Blue, as is typical, then the electoral votes would go 30-20 to each candidate.

They can also make voting less attractive to minorities, which they assume tend to vote Blue.  Things like placing voting booths in unsavory neighborhoods, or making them English only or as usual advertising that you can be arrested and deported if somebody thinks you're illegal.

Mostly, they can focus on trying to get people to NOT vote.

Right now, the Conservative base is pretty motivated.  They've been stoking the fires of hate, fear and anger for several years now.  It's reached a point where the discussions on the subject tend to have a frothing rabies infected feel to them on public forums.  Read any articles comment section from a public source and you'll see it right away.  The people who hate our President in many cases don't even know why they hate him, or that the reasons they do are based largely on lies.
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 11:35:07 PM »
The grim reality is that a substantial proportion of the electorate is not very bright. I mean...what the hell, they buy magazines like the National Enquirer and actually believe some of the lunatic stuff the mag contains.. Truth to tell most of that segment does not read at all except for trash mags like the enquirer and maybe some horny stuff like Hustler. If this sounds like an indictment of many of the voters, it is.

Where do the less intellectual voters get their political information?  From TV commercials, of course, and maybe from the likes of Hannity, Beck, or Limbaugh.  So the Pac money that buys all that radio and TV time is influential and is ,too often, totally estranged from the truth.  Pac money interprets the congresional record, recent history, and the character and intent of elected officials in any way that suits their own devices. Truth be damned. People with under developed intellects tend to relish conspiracy theories so they are easy targets for all sorts of twisted facts.  Sample:  Obama is a muslim communist who was born in the Sudan and he is bent on destroying America and, according to Santorum, he is bent on destroying religion, favors the guillotine, and will cause another french revolution....And Obama has single handedly destroyed zillions of American jobs because that is part of his scheme.....Bernanke is secretly on Saudi payroll......  People believe this kind of stuff because it is repeated or slyly inferred so often. Pac money makes it easy to disseminate that kind of trash.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 11:57:26 PM »
Why is the American system set up so a president can only serve two terms? ( that's my understanding  - sorry if I have it wrong )

Is it in your constitution? Seems to me a shame if there happens to be a president who is universally liked and does much good.
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Online Aaron123

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2012, 12:47:30 AM »
Why is the American system set up so a president can only serve two terms? ( that's my understanding  - sorry if I have it wrong )

Is it in your constitution? Seems to me a shame if there happens to be a president who is universally liked and does much good.

Long story short; Washington served two terms, decided he had enough.  Two terms became a tradition.

Then Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected four four terms, and it was decided that four terms was too much, so a constitutional two-term limit was set up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2012, 03:58:04 AM »
The last clean thing that happened in American politics was right before baby George Washington needed his first diaper change. It's been downhill ever since. It's dirty all the way down, and the only office allowed to admit it is dogcatcher. I tend to assume that, other than a few enlightened countries of which I know little, all politics is like this, differing onlyslightly by culture.

The number of people able to make responsible and socially viable decisions in America is apparently zero, a relatively small number compared to 100 senators, 435 representatives, nine members of the supreme court, one president, 50 governors and a supporting cast of billions (trillions?) of dollars. Because someone a long time ago invented money and that ruined everything.

The only reason we aren't actually slaves is that it costs more to guard us than it does to let us pretend we live in a democracy and have us guard ourselves.

The only two things worth living for are love and work (I don't like the second one either but making sure one has a roof over their head, food in their belly and clothes to wear cannot, technically, be done any other way). The purpose of government, like the purpose of religion, is to allow at least some members of society to pretend they have a greater role to play so they can get out of both of those requirements. And apparently, a good superpac makes funding that part easy.

Are there good people in the world? You bet. Millions. Sadly, even with a 100 or 200 or 300:1 ratio against the bad guys, the good are just too frickin' good. They are so busy being responsible people, paying their bills, raising their kids, doing their jobs, loving their country, that they just don't have time to either recognize or respond to the blatant selfishness of those that control our lives (paranoid government types) or out pocketbook (bankers and wall street and other selfish money grubbing bottom feeders). It is a case where decency is so busy being decent that it too naive to know it needs to kick the indecent in the balls. Hence Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum and Armani suited executives on Wall Street are able to walk upright and impersonate human beings fairly well. At least from a distance.

As long as those skilled in bullsh*t can find enough people skilled in being bullsh*tted, we're in trouble. And sadly both of those skill sets predominate, at least in American society. People have been asking what we can do to make our government more honest and transparent for over 200 years, and nobody yet has come up with an answer. Well, that's not true. There are lots of answers. It's just that each one pales in comparison to the answer the powerful came up with a long time ago (Kick 'em while their down. Tha'llt make them more likely to vote the way you want).

Having freedom is irrelevant in an world where it can be used against us easier it can be used for us. Sometime soon, the dictionary people will remove the word "hope" from the book because it doesn't apply any more, And every day from now until the end of eternity, people will stand around discussing all the things wrong with the government and the economy and imagine they have real live solutions. In fact a whole  bunch of people will absolutely "know" what the problem is and how to fix it. And each of those days, what will be will be, and all of those proposed solutions will, at best, end up as footnotes in our unpublished history.

On the bright side, we've got each other. Which will make the prison camps a bit more tolerable.

P.S. Sorry for the downer, but I couldn't think of anything nice to say. Who brought politics anyway?



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Offline shnozzola

Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2012, 06:57:27 AM »
The only reason we aren't actually slaves is that it costs more to guard us than it does to let us pretend we live in a democracy and have us guard ourselves.

I claim this as a future sad but true signature.

Quote
On the bright side, we've got each other. Which will make the prison camps a bit more tolerable

No, It will make the undiscovered caves a bit more tolerable.  :) If you want to go to the heart of government and say  nothing we do matters, then lets go to the heart of life, and say, well then, if it is true (and it is) that nothing matters, lets have as much fun as we possibly can, while we remain the good guys and take care of our families and treat those we meet with respect, even those who don't deserve it (ahhh, the tricky part), and continue to fight that much harder against any oppression of our collective humanity.  PP, I can imagine you reading over your post and realizing you needed the PS.  We always got hope, man.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 07:29:59 AM by shnozzola »
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2012, 01:16:32 PM »
The only reason we aren't actually slaves is that it costs more to guard us than it does to let us pretend we live in a democracy and have us guard ourselves.

I claim this as a future sad but true signature.

Quote
On the bright side, we've got each other. Which will make the prison camps a bit more tolerable

No, It will make the undiscovered caves a bit more tolerable.  :) If you want to go to the heart of government and say  nothing we do matters, then lets go to the heart of life, and say, well then, if it is true (and it is) that nothing matters, lets have as much fun as we possibly can, while we remain the good guys and take care of our families and treat those we meet with respect, even those who don't deserve it (ahhh, the tricky part), and continue to fight that much harder against any oppression of our collective humanity.  PP, I can imagine you reading over your post and realizing you needed the PS.  We always got hope, man.

Good reply, Shnoz. I've got hope, but I'm not trapped mentally by political and social realities. That's one of the great advantages of age. It gives you both great perspective and little time to enjoy it.

I hope others have hope. And a way to employ it for better good. My cynicism comes from my personal perspective. I could be wrong. However, the current crop of republican candidates and the disappointment of Obama causes me to think otherwise. Why can't we go back to the good old days with Gerald Ford battling it out with Jimmy Carter? Mostly because the game is only for cheaters only now, and that's sad.

I hope there is hope. Sadly, I have no way personally of pointing that out. Besides, I've always wanted to shout Jack Nicholson's famous line "The truth! You can't handle the truth!" to whoever it is that shoots me.
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Offline atheola

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Re: Obama Caves in on SuperPac
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 10:16:12 PM »
Uhg...so much to say on such a crappy little android phone and so I'll at least try to keep it short... One thing is Obey doesn't have to outspend the rubes this time because everyone, including the rubes themselves knows that the rubes offered up pure clowns across the board.. Rubes know they're going to lose so they're doing the same crap of years past, offering no new ideas ang going ultra negative hoping that democrats of all persuations crap out like in 2010.
I have hope for the simple reason that I remember what it was like when I was a child when one entire side of town was nearly reduced to rubble in the riots and dad made us ride on the car floor to grandma's house and church was all but compulsory.

All that said I still long for certain bygone days,but the rubes are still pushing the ignorance agenda of little or no education and hoping everyone believes in Santa and Rudolph and hoping Richie and Fonzie make a comeback. They're stuck on Ronald McReagan of 30 years ago and the days when phones were still bolted to kitchen walls.. I must believe we're heading to a new age of progressive politics... I gave up on my old negative ways.. They got me exactly jack doodly shit for over 50 years.
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