Author Topic: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?  (Read 3701 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2012, 10:29:26 PM »
It would appear there is a distinction between 'dwelling' with evil and temporary closeness. But I really can't say for sure.

It might also rest on distinctions between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As you're certain;y aware, the trinity is something Christians don't agree on.
Satan and Job ,,,,,,he hung around with Satan while he was fucking with Job

 Stop lying to US and YOURSELF

He hung around with Satan from the time of Adam and Eve and a few centuries thereafter
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 10:31:37 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2012, 10:45:21 PM »

No, we don't have a choice.  Not in the least. 

You can not CHOOSE to believe something.  If you think you can, then try to CHOOSE to believe in Santa Claus to see if you can do it.  You either believe something or you don't, and that is based on evidence and experience. 

That's true, as far as it goes. However, may I draw your attention to Romans 1:20, which states:   

New International Version (©1984)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


So, if there was somebody who had genuinely never for a moment suspected somewhere in their heart that God was real, that person may have some excuse. But the bible says that is not the case  ( although I don't know how this applies to those who, due to age or illness, are unable to think about God. )

Most users here seem to be former believers who decided the scientific evidence disproved God, or who were disillusioned that they couldn't see the proof of God or didn;t experience God the way others claimed to ( and if you're honest, the way they genuinely seemed to.

Jesus said "knock and the door shall be opened unto you, seek and you shall find", and He gave examples to indicate that sometimes perseverance is needed. I believe the Holy Spirit is available as a gift to all those who genuinely, sometimes persistently, seek Him.



He could give us all the evidence we need right here and now, but he chooses not to. 

I refer again to the Roman scripture, and wonder if you have ever had a time, even a moment, when you have known somewhere within you that God is real.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #147 on: February 09, 2012, 10:46:28 PM »
It would appear there is a distinction between 'dwelling' with evil and temporary closeness. But I really can't say for sure.

It might also rest on distinctions between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As you're certain;y aware, the trinity is something Christians don't agree on.
Satan and Job ,,,,,,he hung around with Satan while he was fucking with Job

 Stop lying to US and YOURSELF

He hung around with Satan from the time of Adam and Eve and a few centuries thereafter

A lie, as far as I'm concerned, is a deliberate mis-truth. Not applicable here.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #148 on: February 09, 2012, 10:50:37 PM »
Here's a question I asked you in another thread yesterday, Magic miles...it also applies here with the direction things have veered:

Quote
Quote from: magicmiles on February 07, 2012, 09:00:06 PM
Nothing new here, PP. We would all prefer God ticked all our boxes, but we have to take Him as He is I'm afraid. Well, I do.

And as nice as many old ladies are, none are perfect and none can dwell with God because of it. God's justice is greater than ours.

Quote
  (from Jynnan Tonnix) Now, here's something that puzzles me: If God cannot be in the presence of sin, and all of us have inherent sin nature, why is the only other option eternal hell?

I suppose this is sort of where the whole "hell as separation from God" concept sprung from, as most normal people tend to find it pretty impossible to worship a deity who condemns sweet little old ladies to eternal suffering...but then again, why should this separation be so bad in and of itself?

There's plenty of sin going on here on earth all the time, yet God supposedly still manages to reach in and intervene pretty consistently, if the testimonies are to be trusted. Despite Satan supposedly having dominion over the place for the time being.

Evidently, the lack of intimate communion with god isn't the worst thing imaginable... Those of other or no faith manage to lead comfortable, fulfilling lives...I for one wouldn't see a continuation of the life I have now as any major hardship. OK, eternity might get a little long, but in general, it's been pretty good.

Why, then, would it be impossible for him to set up a separate "holding area" for those who did their best, even if they failed the test of accepting him? Why could there be no possible alternative than hell, when Earthly life seems as though it's pretty much a working compromise already?

Maybe you could get around to it this time around?

Offline Tero

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #149 on: February 09, 2012, 10:53:38 PM »
But a holy spirit has no nutritional value. Show me the locusts Jesus ate and I've learned something of use.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2012, 11:32:49 PM »
Here's a question I asked you in another thread yesterday, Magic miles...it also applies here with the direction things have veered:

Quote
Quote from: magicmiles on February 07, 2012, 09:00:06 PM
Nothing new here, PP. We would all prefer God ticked all our boxes, but we have to take Him as He is I'm afraid. Well, I do.

And as nice as many old ladies are, none are perfect and none can dwell with God because of it. God's justice is greater than ours.

Quote
  (from Jynnan Tonnix) Now, here's something that puzzles me: If God cannot be in the presence of sin, and all of us have inherent sin nature, why is the only other option eternal hell?

I suppose this is sort of where the whole "hell as separation from God" concept sprung from, as most normal people tend to find it pretty impossible to worship a deity who condemns sweet little old ladies to eternal suffering...but then again, why should this separation be so bad in and of itself?

There's plenty of sin going on here on earth all the time, yet God supposedly still manages to reach in and intervene pretty consistently, if the testimonies are to be trusted. Despite Satan supposedly having dominion over the place for the time being.

Evidently, the lack of intimate communion with god isn't the worst thing imaginable... Those of other or no faith manage to lead comfortable, fulfilling lives...I for one wouldn't see a continuation of the life I have now as any major hardship. OK, eternity might get a little long, but in general, it's been pretty good.

Why, then, would it be impossible for him to set up a separate "holding area" for those who did their best, even if they failed the test of accepting him? Why could there be no possible alternative than hell, when Earthly life seems as though it's pretty much a working compromise already?

Maybe you could get around to it this time around?

I love being gently chided. 8)

I think the key to getting some sort of understanding on this is to grasp just how holy God is and to then realise how evil we are. And I think the problem we all struggle with is an inability to do this very well. I will certainly say that it must be almost impossibly hard for non-believers to see God as being so holy, and His need for justice so strong, that He wipes out sin completely. I find it mind-blowing myself.
I found this essay useful in reminding myself that at my core I am a helpless sinner:

http://hoperesources.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/a-fantastic-essay-the-room-by-brian-moore/

I know we have a tendency to rationalise our shortcomings and compare them favourably to murderers and rapists, and I think that's even part of the answer: Most people are horrified to hear of such crimes and justice is demanded. It shows that we have at least a partial perception of justice. But for things such as lying, cheating, sloth etc, whilst forwned upon generally, we don't have the same sense of outrage and need for justice. And I believe that is because we are fatally flawed - but God isn't. Therefore His demand for justice encompasses ALL wrong-doing.

As for the line of thought we all enage in - "why couldn't God just ease up a bit" - well, the answer again lies with just how holy He is. If we understood that, we'd probably understand why He CAN'T just ease up. Maybe it's a bit the part in Pride and Prejudice where Elizabeth first sees the home of Mr Darcy and gets an insight into the source of his pride.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #151 on: February 09, 2012, 11:36:07 PM »
But a holy spirit has no nutritional value. Show me the locusts Jesus ate and I've learned something of use.

I must admit that I find most of your posts confusing. This is no exception.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #152 on: February 10, 2012, 12:33:45 AM »
That's true, as far as it goes. However, may I draw your attention to Romans 1:20, which states:   

New International Version (©1984)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


This sentence is basically saying that because of... everything... we know God exists, right? That's what they mean by "understood from what has been made".  What an utterly ridiculous argument to make in the 21st century. It's just bat shit crazy to say that now.  The people back then believed lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, and just about everything that happened to them in the world (good or bad) had some sort of causative agent behind it (they named it god).  But nobody sees things that way anymore.  Do you look at lighting and think, "Wow, look at God's eternal power and divine nature", even though we have a completely fine understanding of it in terms of it being a naturally occurring phenomena?  Do you see the moon up in the sky and think about how great God is for moving it across the sky for us, even though it's easily understood as moving naturally under the force of gravity?  Of course not, because you're not an idiot; but the people back then... they DID think those things. 

In our modern times, everywhere you look, what you see is evidence that there is no supernatural force at work.  That the world works naturally and SCIENCE is what has given us the ability to overcome this ancient nonsensical position.  So isn't it possible that those people were just too ignorant to see the world any other way... so they made up god to explain things? Just like every other religion that has ever been invented does?  Honestly, can you tell me that's not possible?  Move past that brick wall of faith you've erected inside your brain, and see if you can find any flaws in that argument.  Why do we have to explain this stuff to you?  Why can't you see this for yourself that they were clearly just wrong?  I don't get it.  You're not 5 anymore, and this isn't rocket science. 

Based on reason, logic and evidence, the phrase from Romans is undeniably false.  I have every reason to reject God and so do you.  EVERY reason.  So I ask you what is more likely?  That there exists an invisible sky man who literally hides every bit of evidence from all of us, even though a magic book says 'everything exists, therefore the Christian God'... Or the people who wrote it were so scientifically ignorant that they saw God's fingerprints on everything as a means of explanation?   The answer is obvious.  Your book is just wrong.  Just like it's wrong about so many other things. 

So, if there was somebody who had genuinely never for a moment suspected somewhere in their heart that God was real, that person may have some excuse. But the bible says that is not the case  ( although I don't know how this applies to those who, due to age or illness, are unable to think about God. )

Which God?  And why do you think the bible is correct here?  Just because you do?  Or can you point to any sort of evidence that it's right? 

Most users here seem to be former believers who decided the scientific evidence disproved God, or who were disillusioned that they couldn't see the proof of God or didn;t experience God the way others claimed to ( and if you're honest, the way they genuinely seemed to.

God isn't real.  The former believers on this site were wrong about God, and now they're right.  All you have to do is open your eyes.  But you won't.  You're more than happy to stay brainwashed thinking that everyone is evil and that we all deserve death, and that you, for some reason, have found the correct religion, even though every religious person in the world thinks that about their religion too. 

Jesus said "knock and the door shall be opened unto you, seek and you shall find", and He gave examples to indicate that sometimes perseverance is needed. I believe the Holy Spirit is available as a gift to all those who genuinely, sometimes persistently, seek Him.

And lots of other people say that's just not true.  Maybe you should hear them out instead of just blindly sticking to your ancient superstition.   

I just think the entire premise is so dumb.  You're saying that the difference between getting the greatest gift in the history of the universe all rides on the difference between a please and a pretty please with sugar on top.  How stupid is that? 

Here is the other possibility, magicmiles.  What if you've just been brainwashed to believe he's there when he's really not?  That could also explain why I don't believe and you do, couldn't it?  Isn't that EXACTLY what the case would be with ANY other religion on the planet other than your super special God version?  I mean, if a Thor worshiper said I wasn't seeking Thor with all my heart, would you say he was right, or that he was delusional and Thor doesn't exist?  When you realize that's all I'm doing to you, maybe you'll see how embarrassingly stupid the entire premise of Christianity is. 

I refer again to the Roman scripture, and wonder if you have ever had a time, even a moment, when you have known somewhere within you that God is real.

No.  I really haven't.  I was never a believer.  I do not think my mind works like that. 

For a good portion of my life, the question of religion was as important to me as knowing the average temperature at the north pole.  I just didn't care.  Now, after digging into it a lot, I do not believe my mind is set up to work the way yours does.  I won't blindly believe the things I read in the bible (or any other book) just because it's old and some people seem to think holds truth.  I need more than that.  Maybe that's because nobody drilled God into me; or maybe I'm just way less gullible than you.  The fact is, the bible doesn't hold truth.  Every facet of biblical Christianity that is critical to the faith is more likely untrue than true.  Examples: It is more likely untrue that Jesus rose from the dead.  It is more likely untrue that God created the world in 6 days.  It is more likely untrue that Jesus was born from a virgin.  It is more likely untrue that God sent himself down to Earth to sacrifice himself to himself so we could be free to do bad things and still get to the happy place when we die.  Nonsense, all of it.   

I'm sorry if some of the things I said in this post were offensive to you, but you're just so obviously wrong here.  God isn't real, and it's frustrating as hell trying to get you to see that when you obviously can't seem to get past your faith wall and look at the others side of the argument with an open mind. 

I think the key to getting some sort of understanding on this is to grasp just how holy God is and to then realise how evil we are. And I think the problem we all struggle with is an inability to do this very well. I will certainly say that it must be almost impossibly hard for non-believers to see God as being so holy, and His need for justice so strong, that He wipes out sin completely. I find it mind-blowing myself.
I found this essay useful in reminding myself that at my core I am a helpless sinner:

Here is yet another possibility, magicmiles.  You are a good person.  Your son is a good person.  Everyone you surround yourself with every day is a good person.  God doesn't exist, but you believe He does because you've been brainwashed to believe so.  When you see tragedy in the world, that thought that goes through your mind about how a loving God could ever do such a thing, is trying to make you see the truth, and you should be listening to it.  The reason you find the notion that God wants to wipe out sin 'mind blowing' is because it's an utter crock of shit.  You've never sinned in your life because to sin is a crime against God, and there is no God to begin with.  Sometimes you do bad things just like everyone else, but that's because you're human, not evil. 

At the very least, PLEASE do not pass your superstitious nonsense on to your child.  Do you really want him going through life thinking every person he meets is evil?  That is father is evil?  Have you told him that you think HE is evil?  If you don't find that disgusting, then you're just not right in the head.   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 12:36:13 AM by JeffPT »
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #153 on: February 10, 2012, 05:24:39 AM »
indeed people destroy their children with this BS...

My child already suffers from low confidence in some arenas, the last thing i need is a bunch of ignorant bronze age superstition believers telling her she's worthless without this fictional being, and that she's evil for being born. Look at the self hatred they instill in their followers, look at mm's posts, he hates himself. Look at the great lengths  christianity will go to in order to get their tithes from the most people possible.Theyre willing to make you all into worthless beings and condemn all to enternal torment. If god clearly existed and was good it wouldnnt take that type of coersion at all.

You see I dont have to demean my child in order for her to know I exist, I dont have to demean her in order for her to listen to me. Thats because unlike yahweh and ALL of the other made up gods its clear I'm here. And I dont tell my daughter bullshit and expect her to believe it because "Its me" to the contrary I told her if I tell her something and it doesnt make sense to her to have me explain it, if its BS then disregard it. And undountedly she'll one day disregard something that wasnt BS and learn a lesson from it, and when that happens I wont ground her or beat her forever. Because I dont need that type of coersion for her to believe that Im real and have her best interest in mind.

God doesnt exist so the stakes have to be higher.

Offline changeling

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #154 on: February 10, 2012, 06:37:20 AM »
I think that magicmiles answered the OP in an earlier post.

Jesus is dead, good. God had Jesus killed, good.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #155 on: February 10, 2012, 09:24:56 AM »
At the very least, PLEASE do not pass your superstitious nonsense on to your child.  Do you really want him going through life thinking every person he meets is evil?  That is father is evil?  Have you told him that you think HE is evil?  If you don't find that disgusting, then you're just not right in the head.

I can at least respect my own father's guts in telling me this ^^ despite how disgusting it is.  Yeah, it drove a wedge between us from then until he died ~15 years later.  But hey, at least he was true to his belief that his son an evil person who worshipped evil by playing magic cards.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2012, 10:32:36 AM »
It would appear there is a distinction between 'dwelling' with evil and temporary closeness. But I really can't say for sure.

It might also rest on distinctions between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As you're certain;y aware, the trinity is something Christians don't agree on.
Satan and Job ,,,,,,he hung around with Satan while he was fucking with Job

 Stop lying to US and YOURSELF

He hung around with Satan from the time of Adam and Eve and a few centuries thereafter

A lie, as far as I'm concerned, is a deliberate mis-truth. Not applicable here.
So Satan is not evil,,,,he just does what God wants...and GOD wants EVIL?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #157 on: February 10, 2012, 11:00:00 AM »
I think the key to getting some sort of understanding on this is to grasp just how holy God is and to then realise how evil we are. And I think the problem we all struggle with is an inability to do this very well. I will certainly say that it must be almost impossibly hard for non-believers to see God as being so holy, and His need for justice so strong, that He wipes out sin completely. I find it mind-blowing myself.
  Sorry, MM, but I'm not evil.  Never have been and for you to so arrogantly claim anyone is, with no evidence, is rather pathetic.  But claimign thigns without evidence is pretty standard for Christians.  There is nothing to show that your god even exists and what I see in the bible, sure doesn't make him good.  Unless, you're down with genocide and damning people for other people's actions.   There is no justice shown by this god at all.  And your claim that this god "wipes out sin completely", that's hysterical considering all of the "sin" in the world and how many time your god totally failed to "wipe out sin completely" even in your story book.  I doubt you would really like justice like that, MM; you revel in the happily secular laws of the US, I'm guessing; which is not like your god's vengeful bratty acts at all.   
Quote
As for the line of thought we all enage in - "why couldn't God just ease up a bit" - well, the answer again lies with just how holy He is. If we understood that, we'd probably understand why He CAN'T just ease up. Maybe it's a bit the part in Pride and Prejudice where Elizabeth first sees the home of Mr Darcy and gets an insight into the source of his pride.
yawn, the usual theist claim that atheists just are rebellign against a god. No, I don't engage in that silly line of thought at all.  So tedious and such a pathetic lie told by theists to themselves so they feel superior. 
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #158 on: February 10, 2012, 11:06:35 AM »
MM, as I see it, judging someone to deserve to be horribly tortured constantly for 50 years requires some degree as hatred for them.

What kind of hatred does it require to deem someone to deserve constant torture for 1000 years?

What about eternity?

That's a level of hatred I find difficult to comprehend.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2012, 12:08:05 PM »
http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

miles, this is weak shit.  And unfortunately for you, you didn't bother to understand or question your source.  Of course not.  You people turn off your brains and defer to authority at every opportunity.  Pathetic.  Following is the response used by a former giant of this forum to crush the claim you have given.  Enjoy.

Quote from: DTE
Indeed you may and I apologize. Tbright had proactively responded to my input. Still, I might like to discuss the matter of translation issues...

The word translated evil in Isaiah 45:7 is ra'. You might recognize it better from Genesis 2:9: "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Same word. Do you submit to me that it should be the tree of good and disaster?

How about Genesis 6:5, when God was sorry for having made the world and decided to destroy it by flood:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Same word. Do you submit to me that it should be "thoughts of his heart was only disaster continually?"

What about create? Well, that's the word bara', which always has God as it's subject. So not only did God create ra', God bara' ra'. He created evil, in only the way God can create.

Here are some bible examples:

Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "

Same word.

Genesis 5:1 - "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; "

Amos 4:13 - "For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name."

Same word.

So not only did God create ra', God bara' ra'. He created evil, in only the way God can create. God creates evil, because only he can create it. Of course, that piece of the bible offends the sensibilities of most Christians, so they do what tbright did. Ignore it and breath out (if you will) their own versions.

Christianity is Self-Projection as God.


God creates evil, because only he can create it.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=22711.msg553568#msg553568


Miles, as I told you in the other thread, if this is your A game, give up.  You don't know squat about your dopey beliefs.  You should either apply more scrutiny to them, or shut up about them.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2012, 03:52:35 PM »
Not trying to. I post my honest, immediate reactions to your posts.


Before you said that:

 "I'm not just posting any old nonsense that pops into my head. I give my responses a lot of thought and my views reflect what I believe."


So which is it? Whichever is most convenient for you to claim to get away from giving a proper response?

It would appear there is a distinction between 'dwelling' with evil and temporary closeness. But I really can't say for sure.

It might also rest on distinctions between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As you're certain;y aware, the trinity is something Christians don't agree on.

Miles.....seriously. Do you actually read your own words to yourself? This excuse is so weak and sad that I'm not even sure what to say about it. I feel like anything I say to take it apart would be like smashing a wheelchair bound man with a semi-truck.

So, if there was somebody who had genuinely never for a moment suspected somewhere in their heart that God was real, that person may have some excuse. But the bible says that is not the case  ( although I don't know how this applies to those who, due to age or illness, are unable to think about God. )

You're still ignoring the obvious facts that choice cannot exist in the Christian worldview.

Also you're forgetting that god also states that he will deliberately cause some people to disbelieve in him. And again, which god? People talk about all sorts of gods, and they use the same evidence you do.


Jesus said "knock and the door shall be opened unto you, seek and you shall find", and He gave examples to indicate that sometimes perseverance is needed. I believe the Holy Spirit is available as a gift to all those who genuinely, sometimes persistently, seek Him.

I notice you have a habit of making a lot of these underhanded, severely egotistical/arrogant statements.

You're outright claiming that everyone that doesn't believe in your particular god only does so because they have never actually looked for him. Not just atheists, but all of the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. and everyone else who came to a different conclusion has just never looked hard enough because if they had then they would have obviously come to the same conclusion that you did.

You have just actively passed judgement on the vast majority of humanity. Making assumptions about all of their thoughts and actions in a single broad sweep, because (according to you) no one who actually looked for god could have come to any other conclusion than you have. This also includes other Christians who came to different conclusions about Jesus and god than you did (who you have previously claimed are not True Christians).

Might I also point out that you are making this claim despite your utter inability to provide even a single iota of evidence to justify your own beliefs. Or to even separate your own beliefs from something you just made up.

I invite you to honestly consider for a few moments the complete arrogance and close-mindedness implicit in your words and your position. Not to mention the sheer disrespect you show for every other human being on Earth who is not a Christian of your particular brand of faith.

I think the key to getting some sort of understanding on this is to grasp just how holy God is and to then realise how evil we are.

He can't be that Holy since he created us, who you say are evil. Created Satan, who is evil, and did all of this knowing it would be like this.

This is one of the many reasons why I pity you so much, Miles. There is so much in this world and you let your own ignorance taint your mind into thinking that it's all evil, and the only way that anything can be good is through an invisible tyrant who can only possibly exist inside your own mind.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2012, 06:25:48 PM »

So you think all atheists are evil then?   

Yes. And all theists, and agnostics, etc etc

" We have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God ".

I would be able to buy your line of reasoning if there were only two kinds of people in the world: atheists who just don't get it, and Christians who all agree on everything. It would be like blind people and sighted people, or the chosen and the unchosen, however you want to categorize the two groups. But since there are hundreds of religions besides your version of Christianity, you have to accept that you may be wrong about the way the world works.

If there is really one Christian god who communicates with everyone, he has done a piss-poor job getting the message across to the devout Sikhs, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, Jews, Cao Dai, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, Bahais, etc who all are certain that they have it right.

I think where we atheists are different from theists is that we try to see what is really there, not what we think or wish or fear was there. When you look at a week-old baby, MM, do you see evil or potential evil? I don't. I see a sweet little newborn human being. Nothing evil about it.

It is hard for me to see evil in anyone unless they are a dictator starving everyone in North Korea, or a psycho who likes raping mentally handicapped children, or beating up elderly homeless people. Most of us are never going to do anything like that. Sloth?

Can animals be evil? I don't think so. If a puppy chews up a shoe is it evil? Of course not, that is normal behavior. We are also animals, MM. Clothes-wearing, intelligent, talky animals, but still animals. Just like other social animals, humans have rules for managing behavior. And when someone is way out of line we humans correct them. We don't have to wait for god or rely on ancient sacred books.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2012, 02:44:17 AM »
Hey Lucifer; is there anything the god in question could -- in principle -- do that you would consider good? If not, then your question is merely rhetorical and you've been wasting everyone's time. So far you've placed the god in a context where there is absolutely nothing the god could possibly do that you would consider good. If the god helps a little old lady across the street, he's guilty of creating the street and its dangers and therefore is evil. The omni-qualities of the god make it impossible for the god to do good.

But if we place the god in a shallower -- non-omni -- context, it's just as good an act as if a Boy Scout did it. I think you would agree that if you view the stories in a shallow context, the god does a few good things.

But if you wish to continue your question in a big-picture context, it would help if you could supply an act that the god could do that you would consider good, and see if people can find examples of that kind of act carried out by the god in the bible. That should simplify things.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2012, 03:02:46 AM »
Hey Lucifer; is there anything the god in question could -- in principle -- do that you would consider good?

Obviously. Otherwise, as you said, the question would be rhetorical, and the OP would be a lot different than it is, although the thread's progression would be very similar, if not exactly the same as it was. Theists trying to prove me wrong, atheists and theists asking what you asked here, although it would be rhetorical, and theists using real-life examples when I asked for examples from the Bible.

So far you've placed the god in a context where there is absolutely nothing the god could possibly do that you would consider good. If the god helps a little old lady across the street, he's guilty of creating the street and its dangers and therefore is evil. The omni-qualities of the god make it impossible for the god to do good.

YHWH did not create the street and its dangers, we did. It is responsible for creating us, but I'm willing to put that aside for a moment.
If it helped the old lady cross the street and didn't turn around and say "Worship me because I helped you cross the street" at any given point in the old lady's life afterward, I would consider it a good thing. It didn't do it because it because it was trying to get something in return; it just did it just because it was the right thing to do.
Of course, if the old lady robbed a bank or did something evil once on the other side of the street, I might reconsider.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2012, 01:44:24 PM »
Skotos.....save your breath
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2012, 03:09:31 PM »
Quote
YHWH did not create the street and its dangers, we did.

Well, no. If the god is omniscient, omnipotent, and created the universe, then everything is happening according to its omniscient plan. If the god wanted different things to happen in the universe, it simply would have created a different universe in which those things happen. The act of creation is the coercion. But that's beside the point and outside the scope of the thread. (my bad.)

Back to the actual topic:

Quote
If it helped the old lady cross the street and didn't turn around and say "Worship me because I helped you cross the street" at any given point in the old lady's life afterward, I would consider it a good thing.

How about if it said: "It was no trouble ma'am. Oh, by the way, if you want to avoid an eternity of torture in a lake of fire in the afterlife you sorta need to worship me. Sorry." What then?  Here the god is helpfully advising the old lady of a path to a likely desired goal. It is providing information so she can make an informed decision. Would this be evil?

My attempt to answer your question would be to point out that the god-character went to the trouble of creating the Eve character because it saw that the Adam character was lonely. That seems on the surface to be a perfectly empathetic reaction to seeing someone suffering. I don't think it commanded the humans to worship it in return, but just gave instructions on what not to eat. This seems to fulfill your requirements. Was the creation of Eve a good thing in your opinion?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 03:11:42 PM by dloubet »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2012, 03:46:54 PM »
Well, no. If the god is omniscient, omnipotent, and created the universe, then everything is happening according to its omniscient plan. If the god wanted different things to happen in the universe, it simply would have created a different universe in which those things happen. The act of creation is the coercion.

Just because YHWH has a plan for some things doesn't mean it has a plan for virtually everything in existence. That's why my question refers only to the Bible's stories, where its intentions are (sometimes) made clear.

How about if it said:
<snip>
It is providing information so she can make an informed decision. Would this be evil?

It's coercion, so yes.

My attempt to answer your question would be to point out that the god-character went to the trouble of creating the Eve character because it saw that the Adam character was lonely. That seems on the surface to be a perfectly empathetic reaction to seeing someone suffering. I don't think it commanded the humans to worship it in return, but just gave instructions on what not to eat. This seems to fulfill your requirements. Was the creation of Eve a good thing in your opinion?

That depends. As you (kinda) said and as was pointed out by Azdgari, YHWH is believed by many christians to be an omnimax deity, but it is not actually portrayed as such in the Bible. If we consider the omnimax deity many christians worship, it would be evil, as Eve was just a scapegoat for its plan to succeed. If we consider YHWH as portrayed in the Bible, it would be good.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #167 on: February 11, 2012, 05:47:03 PM »
Not trying to. I post my honest, immediate reactions to your posts.


Before you said that:

 "I'm not just posting any old nonsense that pops into my head. I give my responses a lot of thought and my views reflect what I believe."


So which is it? Whichever is most convenient for you to claim to get away from giving a proper response?


When I posted that my responses were considered and thought through, that was generally true. In some threads there are posts which I give immediate, gut instinct response to. This thread, and some of your posts, were examples.

There are other posts on here which I am still considering.

I trust that answers your question.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #168 on: February 11, 2012, 08:24:16 PM »

I trust that answers your question.

So here what we have are answers in that what I see are two contradictory statements from you, both stated as absolutes by you. Each statement provided just after being called out on something and each statement aimed at covering your ass. Then upon being called out on that I see a statement trying to claim a mid ground that was not claimed before wherein you sometimes think about it, but sometimes don't. Apparently, as near as I can tell, whenever the spirit moves you.

So yes, actually yes it does. My assumption was correct, you simply claim whichever one lets you get away from giving a proper response.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #169 on: February 11, 2012, 08:29:56 PM »
So cynical. 

If you simply never intend to accept an explanation I provide I really do have no future on these boards.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2012, 01:27:42 AM »
Quote
Just because YHWH has a plan for some things doesn't mean it has a plan for virtually everything in existence.

Just because YHVH is omniscient, omnipotent, and the creator, means it has a plan for absolutely everything in existence.

Quote
It's coercion, so yes.

Providing people with "facts" so they can make an informed decision is coercion? Really? You're actually going to stick with that story? I think this is a fundamental disagreement. You're going to have to make one hell of an argument make me agree with you on this point.

Quote
That depends.


Aargh! I'm trying to respond to the author of the OP, and that would be you! Does my answer satisfy your OP question as posted? It seems to meet the requirements of the scenario that you yourself said would be good. The god character helps the little old lady across the street and doesn't demand worship and The god character creates a companion for a solitary person to ease his loneliness and doesn't demand worship. are equivalent! How is one "good" and the other "That depends"?
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #171 on: February 12, 2012, 01:57:08 AM »
Just because YHVH is omniscient, omnipotent, and the creator, means it has a plan for absolutely everything in existence.

How so?

Providing people with "facts" so they can make an informed decision is coercion? Really? You're actually going to stick with that story? I think this is a fundamental disagreement. You're going to have to make one hell of an argument make me agree with you on this point.


The creation of hell was coercion. Reminding people that they will be tortured for eternity unless they worship it (YHWH) is also coercion.

<snip>
How is one "good" and the other "That depends"?

Just using your own logic to screw with you a bit, although it also has a basis in my morality. I am still deciding whether doing nothing when one has the opportunity to stop evil is also evil or just cowardice. Ergo, if one considers the omnimax deity most theists worship (which is what I was considering), and without knowing its motives[1], I cannot say for certain whether it would be good or bad.
 1. In my previous post I assumed to know its motives, which was a mistake.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #172 on: February 12, 2012, 05:59:29 AM »
That's true, as far as it goes. However, may I draw your attention to Romans 1:20, which states:   

New International Version (©1984)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


This sentence is basically saying that because of... everything... we know God exists, right? That's what they mean by "understood from what has been made".  What an utterly ridiculous argument to make in the 21st century. It's just bat shit crazy to say that now.  The people back then believed lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, and just about everything that happened to them in the world (good or bad) had some sort of causative agent behind it (they named it god).  But nobody sees things that way anymore.  Do you look at lighting and think, "Wow, look at God's eternal power and divine nature", even though we have a completely fine understanding of it in terms of it being a naturally occurring phenomena?  Do you see the moon up in the sky and think about how great God is for moving it across the sky for us, even though it's easily understood as moving naturally under the force of gravity?  Of course not, because you're not an idiot; but the people back then... they DID think those things. 

In our modern times, everywhere you look, what you see is evidence that there is no supernatural force at work.  That the world works naturally and SCIENCE is what has given us the ability to overcome this ancient nonsensical position.  So isn't it possible that those people were just too ignorant to see the world any other way... so they made up god to explain things? Just like every other religion that has ever been invented does?  Honestly, can you tell me that's not possible?  Move past that brick wall of faith you've erected inside your brain, and see if you can find any flaws in that argument.  Why do we have to explain this stuff to you?  Why can't you see this for yourself that they were clearly just wrong?  I don't get it.  You're not 5 anymore, and this isn't rocket science. 

Based on reason, logic and evidence, the phrase from Romans is undeniably false.  I have every reason to reject God and so do you.  EVERY reason.  So I ask you what is more likely?  That there exists an invisible sky man who literally hides every bit of evidence from all of us, even though a magic book says 'everything exists, therefore the Christian God'... Or the people who wrote it were so scientifically ignorant that they saw God's fingerprints on everything as a means of explanation?   The answer is obvious.  Your book is just wrong.  Just like it's wrong about so many other things. 

So, if there was somebody who had genuinely never for a moment suspected somewhere in their heart that God was real, that person may have some excuse. But the bible says that is not the case  ( although I don't know how this applies to those who, due to age or illness, are unable to think about God. )

Which God?  And why do you think the bible is correct here?  Just because you do?  Or can you point to any sort of evidence that it's right? 

Most users here seem to be former believers who decided the scientific evidence disproved God, or who were disillusioned that they couldn't see the proof of God or didn;t experience God the way others claimed to ( and if you're honest, the way they genuinely seemed to.

God isn't real.  The former believers on this site were wrong about God, and now they're right.  All you have to do is open your eyes.  But you won't.  You're more than happy to stay brainwashed thinking that everyone is evil and that we all deserve death, and that you, for some reason, have found the correct religion, even though every religious person in the world thinks that about their religion too. 

Jesus said "knock and the door shall be opened unto you, seek and you shall find", and He gave examples to indicate that sometimes perseverance is needed. I believe the Holy Spirit is available as a gift to all those who genuinely, sometimes persistently, seek Him.

And lots of other people say that's just not true.  Maybe you should hear them out instead of just blindly sticking to your ancient superstition.   

I just think the entire premise is so dumb.  You're saying that the difference between getting the greatest gift in the history of the universe all rides on the difference between a please and a pretty please with sugar on top.  How stupid is that? 

Here is the other possibility, magicmiles.  What if you've just been brainwashed to believe he's there when he's really not?  That could also explain why I don't believe and you do, couldn't it?  Isn't that EXACTLY what the case would be with ANY other religion on the planet other than your super special God version?  I mean, if a Thor worshiper said I wasn't seeking Thor with all my heart, would you say he was right, or that he was delusional and Thor doesn't exist?  When you realize that's all I'm doing to you, maybe you'll see how embarrassingly stupid the entire premise of Christianity is. 

I refer again to the Roman scripture, and wonder if you have ever had a time, even a moment, when you have known somewhere within you that God is real.

No.  I really haven't.  I was never a believer.  I do not think my mind works like that. 

For a good portion of my life, the question of religion was as important to me as knowing the average temperature at the north pole.  I just didn't care.  Now, after digging into it a lot, I do not believe my mind is set up to work the way yours does.  I won't blindly believe the things I read in the bible (or any other book) just because it's old and some people seem to think holds truth.  I need more than that.  Maybe that's because nobody drilled God into me; or maybe I'm just way less gullible than you.  The fact is, the bible doesn't hold truth.  Every facet of biblical Christianity that is critical to the faith is more likely untrue than true.  Examples: It is more likely untrue that Jesus rose from the dead.  It is more likely untrue that God created the world in 6 days.  It is more likely untrue that Jesus was born from a virgin.  It is more likely untrue that God sent himself down to Earth to sacrifice himself to himself so we could be free to do bad things and still get to the happy place when we die.  Nonsense, all of it.   

I'm sorry if some of the things I said in this post were offensive to you, but you're just so obviously wrong here.  God isn't real, and it's frustrating as hell trying to get you to see that when you obviously can't seem to get past your faith wall and look at the others side of the argument with an open mind. 

I think the key to getting some sort of understanding on this is to grasp just how holy God is and to then realise how evil we are. And I think the problem we all struggle with is an inability to do this very well. I will certainly say that it must be almost impossibly hard for non-believers to see God as being so holy, and His need for justice so strong, that He wipes out sin completely. I find it mind-blowing myself.
I found this essay useful in reminding myself that at my core I am a helpless sinner:

Here is yet another possibility, magicmiles.  You are a good person.  Your son is a good person.  Everyone you surround yourself with every day is a good person.  God doesn't exist, but you believe He does because you've been brainwashed to believe so.  When you see tragedy in the world, that thought that goes through your mind about how a loving God could ever do such a thing, is trying to make you see the truth, and you should be listening to it.  The reason you find the notion that God wants to wipe out sin 'mind blowing' is because it's an utter crock of shit.  You've never sinned in your life because to sin is a crime against God, and there is no God to begin with.  Sometimes you do bad things just like everyone else, but that's because you're human, not evil. 

At the very least, PLEASE do not pass your superstitious nonsense on to your child.  Do you really want him going through life thinking every person he meets is evil?  That is father is evil?  Have you told him that you think HE is evil?  If you don't find that disgusting, then you're just not right in the head.   

Jeff, I don't go around calling myself or anyone else evil on a daily basis, because the context 99% of the time just isn't right. The word evil is accepted by society to refer to the worst type of mis-deed. I accept that.

And perhaps when you hear of heart breaking tragedies you might question how a collection of cells can suffer such non physical pain and distress, and can have such a powerful need for justice.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #173 on: February 12, 2012, 06:07:54 AM »
non physical pain and distress

Someone needs to study biology...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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