Author Topic: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?  (Read 3527 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #116 on: February 09, 2012, 06:46:43 PM »
There will be nothing good about hell, whatever that literally ends up being. Of that I'm sure. I don't suggest you choose it, because I don't think holding firm in a belief that you don't deserve to be there will be a lot of comfort. I know that sounds trite, but it's my honest belief. You don't have to quote Pascal's wager at me, either...leave that to Velkyn or she might get territorial on you.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #117 on: February 09, 2012, 06:47:49 PM »
Alzael, God said He looked at His creation and saw that it was good.

God didn't create "moral" evil, or evil as it's own thing. Rather, He is the cause of the evil experienced by many in that He allows them to do the wrong thing and experience natural consequences. He also directly punishes.

Then you clearly have never read your bible. Or the quote I noted.

I have, but I don't believe that it means God created Evil in the same sense that you do.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12224
  • Darwins +268/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #119 on: February 09, 2012, 06:53:39 PM »
There will be nothing good about hell, whatever that literally ends up being. Of that I'm sure.

You claimed that your god's punishments always yielded results that were good.  Hell is a punishment.  You've now said that there's nothing good about the idea of hell.  I concur.  Punishing children is justified by the goal of teaching them and/or keeping them from harm.  That doesn't at all fit in with the idea of an eternal Hell.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1993
  • Darwins +194/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #121 on: February 09, 2012, 06:57:49 PM »
I know you're not a parent, but I'm sure those that are can understand that it isn't evil to punish. It can be, done poorly. I don't think God punishes for bad reasons.

Why does a parent punish a child, magicmiles?  What is the purpose of the punishment? 

Once you've answer that, ask yourself what the purpose of hell is.
 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #122 on: February 09, 2012, 07:00:10 PM »
There will be nothing good about hell, whatever that literally ends up being. Of that I'm sure.

You claimed that your god's punishments always yielded results that were good.  Hell is a punishment.  You've now said that there's nothing good about the idea of hell.  I concur.  Punishing children is justified by the goal of teaching them and/or keeping them from harm.  That doesn't at all fit in with the idea of an eternal Hell.

I guess that ultimately hell will be the exception to that. But you have warning about it...don't choose it.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #123 on: February 09, 2012, 07:04:11 PM »
I know you're not a parent, but I'm sure those that are can understand that it isn't evil to punish. It can be, done poorly. I don't think God punishes for bad reasons.

Why does a parent punish a child, magicmiles?  What is the purpose of the punishment? 

Once you've answer that, ask yourself what the purpose of hell is.

See below. Ultimately, hell exists because God can't dwell with evil. You know the drill.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12224
  • Darwins +268/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #124 on: February 09, 2012, 07:05:17 PM »
Why does a parent punish a child, magicmiles?  What is the purpose of the punishment? 

Once you've answer that, ask yourself what the purpose of hell is.

I dunno, Jeff.  These parents seem to have a similar idea of punishment:

Afghan Canadian family convicted for honor killings
Quote
Three members of a Canadian family of Afghan origin have received life sentences for the first-degree murder of members of their immediate family.

The jury in Kingston, Ontario, found Mohammad Shafia, 58, his wife Tooba Yahya, 42, and their son Hamed, 21, guilty of murdering Shafia's three daughters and his other wife in a so-called “honor killing.”

Geeti, 13, Sahar, 17, Zainab, 19, and Shafia's other wife Rona Amir Mohammad, 52, were found drowned in a car in a canal in Kingston, Ontario, in June 2009.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #125 on: February 09, 2012, 07:09:15 PM »

I guess that ultimately hell will be the exception to that. But you have warning about it...don't choose it.
Free will is not possible in the Christian worldview. That's why it's never mentioned in the bible. Christiands are supposed to obey god. That's why we have god mind-controlling the pharoah to make him refuse Moses. It's why there are "Commandments".

The very notion of heaven and hell makes free will an impossibility in and of itself. One cannot have free will if we are commanded to make certain choices or face punishment. That's "circumstantial" will at best.

Furthermore the idea of an all-knowing god also removes any free will since in order to know the outcome ahead of time the outcome must already be set.

Also, I'll direct you to this part that you're overlooking from the other thread.

You cannot blame this suffering on us. God created us. He made us imperfect. He made us knowing this would happen and how we would turn out. He can stop it anytime that he wants to. For that matter he could have simply made us better than he did so that these things wouldn't have happened.

Also keep in mind that god could have simply created us without the ability to do evil. It does not interfere with free will. We wold still have choice we just would not have the ability. Just as I can choose to try and fly, but I don't have the ability to do so. However god made us perfectly capable of evil, then sat back and did nothing while we committed it.

The bottomline is that, by your own admission, the buck stops with god. This is entirely his fault since we have no other choice but to be as we are. Remember, you have already admitted that god knew it would turn out like this. So we had no say in the matter of any of this. It if the fault of the god who created us with full knowledge of the consequences of such an action.

That's the thing with an omnipotent deity. Ultimately the buck always stops with him.
[/quote
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12224
  • Darwins +268/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #126 on: February 09, 2012, 07:10:39 PM »
I guess that ultimately hell will be the exception to that.

If one exception exists, then there can easily be others.

But you have warning about it...don't choose it.

If someone tells you that from now on, if you step on a crack, it'll break your mother's back...are you then choosing to break your mother's back by going and stepping on a crack?  Remember, from now onward, so you can't prove it one way or the other.

You can only choose options in which you believe, mm.  Frankly, I'm keen to avoid the awful hell that people get sent to for believing in gods.  Can you prove it doesn't exist?  Stay safe!  ;)
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1993
  • Darwins +194/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #127 on: February 09, 2012, 07:14:03 PM »
I guess that ultimately hell will be the exception to that. But you have warning about it...don't choose it.

No, we don't have a choice.  Not in the least. 

You can not CHOOSE to believe something.  If you think you can, then try to CHOOSE to believe in Santa Claus to see if you can do it.  You either believe something or you don't, and that is based on evidence and experience. 

The bottom line is this.  If God exists, he gave you the experience and evidence you need in order to believe in him, yet he has not remotely done the same for us.  In that respect, whether we go to hell or not is undoubtedly HIS choice.  God's choice.  He could give us all the evidence we need right here and now, but he chooses not to.  And even if we were to SAY we believe in God, then God would ultimately KNOW we were just trying to fool him to cover our own ass, don't you think? 

The other possibility is that God isn't real, there is no such thing as heaven or hell, and nobody has to worry about it at all.  Since there is not a single shred of evidence to support the notion of heaven or hell, I'm going with that with a completely clear conscience and no fear at all.

Ultimately, hell exists because God can't dwell with evil. You know the drill.

So you think all atheists are evil then?   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #128 on: February 09, 2012, 07:16:53 PM »

That's the thing with an omnipotent deity. Ultimately the buck always stops with him.

I agree.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline The Gawd

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • Darwins +78/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #129 on: February 09, 2012, 07:19:54 PM »
See below. Ultimately, hell exists because God can't dwell with evil. You know the drill.
Since when can god not dwell with evil? How does he intervene on earth then? If jesus is god then how did he walk with men?

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #130 on: February 09, 2012, 07:20:50 PM »

So you think all atheists are evil then?   

Yes. And all theists, and agnostics, etc etc

" We have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God ".
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #131 on: February 09, 2012, 07:22:35 PM »

That's the thing with an omnipotent deity. Ultimately the buck always stops with him.

I agree.

Then he must be held accountable for all evil.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #132 on: February 09, 2012, 07:23:05 PM »
See below. Ultimately, hell exists because God can't dwell with evil. You know the drill.
Since when can god not dwell with evil? How does he intervene on earth then? If jesus is god then how did he walk with men?

By making Himself a man, one of us. Radical.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #133 on: February 09, 2012, 07:25:12 PM »

That's the thing with an omnipotent deity. Ultimately the buck always stops with him.

I agree.

Then he must be held accountable for all evil.

You go ahead and do that. Have a chat with Him about it.

Sometimes it's hard to remember you blokes are discussing an imaginary being.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2012, 07:25:45 PM »

By making Himself a man, one of us. Radical.

Then he can dwell with evil.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2012, 07:26:34 PM »
Then he must be held accountable for all evil.

You go ahead and do that. Have a chat with Him about it.

Sometimes it's hard to remember you blokes are discussing an imaginary being.
[/quote]

Not the point. You're just dodging now.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2012, 07:27:12 PM »

By making Himself a man, one of us. Radical.

Then he can dwell with evil.

When He chooses to make Himself a man. He won't re-enter the earth as a man.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2012, 07:28:39 PM »
Then he must be held accountable for all evil.

You go ahead and do that. Have a chat with Him about it.

Sometimes it's hard to remember you blokes are discussing an imaginary being.

Not the point. You're just dodging now.
[/quote]

Not trying to. I post my honest, immediate reactions to your posts.

I have to log out now for a while, I actually have somee work to do for a change. Lucky me.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1993
  • Darwins +194/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2012, 07:36:00 PM »

So you think all atheists are evil then?   

Yes. And all theists, and agnostics, etc etc

" We have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God ".

Please answer the other part of my previous post where I talk about evidence and choosing to believe.  I would like to see you address it. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2012, 07:41:07 PM »
Not trying to. I post my honest, immediate reactions to your posts.

I have to log out now for a while, I actually have somee work to do for a change. Lucky me.

I find that highly doubtful.

You just figured that you destroyed your own argument and chose to respond like that instead.

There was little "honest" about it.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline The Gawd

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • Darwins +78/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2012, 07:48:35 PM »
as someone said earlier this omnipotence is going to be the death of yahweh. he just cant be everything his followers want him to be or that he's described as. Had he stayed as whatever tribes god of war he'd be more believable... but still a myth. However, his lemmings wouldnt paint themselves into every available corner.

Theyd be better served claiming the real yahweh was the god of the OT and they were believing to save their own ass. thats the only version that even makes an attempt at making sense. Like he's the mad jealous boyfriend in the sky looking over you, you know you should leave, but youre scared to. Reason, though, has a safe haven for you.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2012, 08:44:46 PM »
When He chooses to make Himself a man. He won't re-enter the earth as a man.

That was not a qualification you made previously.

Regardless, he also talks face to face with Satan, and there's also nothing stopping him from becoming a man again, except his lack of desire.

Also Isaiah was in gods presence, despite being sinful.

While we're on the subject, if god is everywhere then he has to be in the presence of sin and evil constantly.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2012, 10:22:50 PM »
It would appear there is a distinction between 'dwelling' with evil and temporary closeness. But I really can't say for sure.

It might also rest on distinctions between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As you're certain;y aware, the trinity is something Christians don't agree on.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12224
  • Darwins +268/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2012, 10:25:20 PM »
It would appear there is a distinction between 'dwelling' with evil and temporary closeness. But I really can't say for sure.

So he's only omnipresent for some of the time?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4587
  • Darwins +104/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2012, 10:28:10 PM »
It would appear there is a distinction between 'dwelling' with evil and temporary closeness. But I really can't say for sure.

It might also rest on distinctions between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As you're certain;y aware, the trinity is something Christians don't agree on.
How the god of a smal obscure tribe of sheep herders came to get 2 billion followers is beyond me. Fool some of the people some of the time...as the saying goes
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)