Author Topic: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?  (Read 3509 times)

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Online One Above All

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2012, 05:04:40 PM »
You haven't answered the question. Is there anything good in your world?

More like a way for the evil to decrease.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2012, 05:08:26 PM »
Yeah that just makes no sense. You either have aspects of your life that you consider good or you don't. Stop trying to over-analyse everything.
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Offline The Wannabe

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2012, 05:16:10 PM »



You haven't answered the question. Is there anything good in your world?

Think about it this way, a great portion of what we find "good" in this world is only here because of us.  We molded our environment to suit our needs through long periods of human trial and error.  We didn't just pop into a pre-ordained paradise where everything is "good", we struggled to create "good" in an indifferent universe because it was necessary for our survival to do so.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #90 on: February 09, 2012, 05:16:22 PM »
Yeah that just makes no sense.

To you.

You either have aspects of your life that you consider good or you don't.

An example is in order, I believe:
I am in great (psychological) pain. I don't know how long it has been, but I think it's approaching six months, if it hasn't already been more than that. I write to express it, which results in it diminishing. Is the pain good? No. Is the writing good? Also no.
I don't think I have to explain why pain isn't good. As for the writing, it isn't good or bad. It's a tool to decrease the pain (evil).

Get it now?

Stop trying to over-analyse everything.

I read this as "Don't think about things once you see them the way that I do".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #91 on: February 09, 2012, 05:21:09 PM »
Pain can be good. It lets us know something is wrong.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2012, 05:24:07 PM »
Pain can be good. It lets us know something is wrong.

Back to the main point:
Is there a single act performed by YHWH in the Bible that is good?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #93 on: February 09, 2012, 05:28:54 PM »



You haven't answered the question. Is there anything good in your world?

Think about it this way, a great portion of what we find "good" in this world is only here because of us.  We molded our environment to suit our needs through long periods of human trial and error.  We didn't just pop into a pre-ordained paradise where everything is "good", we struggled to create "good" in an indifferent universe because it was necessary for our survival to do so.

Mankind fails in it's attempts at survival.

How has mankind created good?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2012, 05:30:10 PM »
Pain can be good. It lets us know something is wrong.

Back to the main point:
Is there a single act performed by YHWH in the Bible that is good?

I've addressed the OP. The single act was the creation of the world. He created it good.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2012, 05:31:33 PM »
I've addressed the OP. The single act was the creation of the world. He created it good.

If YHWH had created the world 100% good, evil would not happen. YHWH also stated that it created evil.
Try again.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2012, 05:40:57 PM »
The only way you can say God created evil is to say allowing freedom was evil. I don't think it was.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2012, 05:42:38 PM »

Mankind fails in it's attempts at survival.

How has mankind created good?

A world population pushing into 7 billion is a failure? What's your definition of "survival"?

Despite its share of stupidity, deliberate cruelties and accidental suffering, our current age enjoys unprecedented improvements in the human condition overall. Increasing supplies of food, health measures, education... all in all, a pretty good time to exist, compared to the rest of human history.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2012, 05:43:12 PM »

I've addressed the OP. The single act was the creation of the world. He created it good.

Evidence please.

The only way you can say God created evil is to say allowing freedom was evil. I don't think it was.

God outright says that he created evil. Have you actually read the bible before?
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2012, 05:43:53 PM »
The only way you can say God created evil is to say allowing freedom was evil. I don't think it was.

Isaiah 45:7 is the way I say it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2012, 05:46:08 PM »
The only way you can say God created evil is to say allowing freedom was evil. I don't think it was.

Isaiah 45:7 is the way I say it.

Or Proverbs 16:4
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #101 on: February 09, 2012, 05:48:26 PM »

Mankind fails in it's attempts at survival.

How has mankind created good?

A world population pushing into 7 billion is a failure? What's your definition of "survival"?

Despite its share of stupidity, deliberate cruelties and accidental suffering, our current age enjoys unprecedented improvements in the human condition overall. Increasing supplies of food, health measures, education... all in all, a pretty good time to exist, compared to the rest of human history.

Hi Wright!

I mean it in the sense that we all die. In that sense, we don't survive. As individuals.

And all those things that you list - what makes them good? Are the things themselves just good, or are they good because they make us happy? And isn't the ability to feel happy part of our human-ness? Created by God...( which the OP assumes )
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #102 on: February 09, 2012, 05:52:21 PM »
Humans die, to be sure, but "mankind" refers to our species.  Which so far has survived quite nicely.
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Offline The Wannabe

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #103 on: February 09, 2012, 05:56:24 PM »


Hi Wright!

I mean it in the sense that we all die. In that sense, we don't survive. As individuals.

And all those things that you list - what makes them good? Are the things themselves just good, or are they good because they make us happy? And isn't the ability to feel happy part of our human-ness? Created by God...( which the OP assumes )

Only 500 years ago the average life expectancy of humans was about a third of what it is today, disease and famine were rampant, and natural disasters wreaked unopposed havoc on society.  Seems like god didn't necessarily have our "good" in mind when he created us and this tumultuous terrestrial ball that we inhabit.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2012, 05:57:02 PM »
Alzael, God said He looked at His creation and saw that it was good.

God didn't create "moral" evil, or evil as it's own thing. Rather, He is the cause of the evil experienced by many in that He allows them to do the wrong thing and experience natural consequences. He also directly punishes.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2012, 05:58:25 PM »
Humans die, to be sure, but "mankind" refers to our species.  Which so far has survived quite nicely.

I take your point.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2012, 06:05:05 PM »
The only way you can say God created evil is to say allowing freedom was evil. I don't think it was.

Isaiah 45:7 is the way I say it.

Or Proverbs 16:4

http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil
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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #108 on: February 09, 2012, 06:11:44 PM »
http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

BS. Creating calamity IS evil.

I know you're not a parent, but I'm sure those that are can understand that it isn't evil to punish. It can be, done poorly. I don't think God punishes for bad reasons.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #109 on: February 09, 2012, 06:12:51 PM »
What good reasons can you cite?
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #110 on: February 09, 2012, 06:16:06 PM »
I know you're not a parent, but I'm sure those that are can understand that it isn't evil to punish. It can be, done poorly. I don't think God punishes for bad reasons.

Now you're just adding to the Bible. I have already conceded that "evil" actually means "calamity", something which I know is wrong (I remember someone else explaining why, but I don't remember the actual explanation), but it makes no mention that "calamity" means "punishment". And remember that YHWH's version of punishment means entire cities and whole families, regardless of their guilt. Hell, one time it killed nearly every living being on the planet just for shits and giggles. But I'm sure it had good reasons to kill all those babies and animals who had nothing to do with it...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline The Wannabe

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #111 on: February 09, 2012, 06:21:20 PM »
I know you're not a parent, but I'm sure those that are can understand that it isn't evil to punish. It can be, done poorly. I don't think God punishes for bad reasons.

Now you're just adding to the Bible. I have already conceded that "evil" actually means "calamity", something which I know is wrong (I remember someone else explaining why, but I don't remember the actual explanation), but it makes no mention that "calamity" means "punishment". And remember that YHWH's version of punishment means entire cities and whole families, regardless of their guilt. Hell, one time it killed nearly every living being on the planet just for shits and giggles. But I'm sure it had good reasons to kill all those babies and animals who had nothing to do with it...

I also like the bible's vagueness when it comes to animals.  Do they have souls?  Are they capable of sinning?  Does Yaweh hold them responsible for their actions?  Is it "wrong" for a male lion to commit infanticide?  What makes us different then the rest of gawd's critters? 

I'd absolutely love to see a theologian tackle that mess ^  &)
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #112 on: February 09, 2012, 06:26:03 PM »
What good reasons can you cite?

The eventual salvation of all those worship Jesus as their saviour. I see that as good, I know you don't.

And, no - I cannot and do not understand why God brought about the birth and eventual death of Jesus through such a long and torturous process.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #113 on: February 09, 2012, 06:35:43 PM »
Oh.  When you said "punishment" I thought you were talking about Hell.

What good is supposed to come from that punishment, mm?
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Offline Alzael

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #115 on: February 09, 2012, 06:43:36 PM »
Alzael, God said He looked at His creation and saw that it was good.

God didn't create "moral" evil, or evil as it's own thing. Rather, He is the cause of the evil experienced by many in that He allows them to do the wrong thing and experience natural consequences. He also directly punishes.

Then you clearly have never read your bible. Or the quote I noted.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.