Author Topic: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?  (Read 8108 times)

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Online One Above All

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Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« on: February 08, 2012, 04:16:48 PM »
Before I get dozens of replies with "subjective morality" on them, let me remind you that although morality is not the same for all humans, there are certain things that most agree on, particularly if their cultures are similar.

Now then, I'm talking about an act that's actually good, not something that's "not evil". There's a difference.
As far as I know, every act directly performed by YHWH in the Bible is either evil[1] or neutral[2]

Note that offering "salvation" is not good.
It created a problem (omniscience means that it already knew what would happen and did nothing about it, not to mention that it created the snake and the tree in the first place) and then offered a solution (worship me for eternity). If said solution is refused, the person is tortured for eternity. Manipulation at its finest.
 1. Mass murder, ordering mass murder, general hatred, et cetera.
 2. "Let there be light" and such.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 04:44:12 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline Dante

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 04:36:52 PM »
C'mon Luci! You know "good" is subjective!  ;)

But, I, subjectively, find turning water into wine particularly GOOD!

Or does JC not count as Yahweh?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 04:58:58 PM »
Does not letting Enoch taste death count?

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 05:01:38 PM »
Does not letting Enoch taste death count?

Explain the situation in full.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 05:08:56 PM »
I find the whole Earth-creation thing to be kind of good.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 05:14:05 PM »
I find the whole Earth-creation thing to be kind of good.

How? It has no influence on any sentient beings. By my understanding, an act is only good or evil if it affects a sentient being (usually a person).
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 05:21:21 PM »
If Earth didn't exist, then its sentient beings wouldn't exist.

Since Earth does exist, its sentient beings exist.

That's quite a significant difference, as far as I can tell.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 05:23:34 PM »
If Earth didn't exist, then its sentient beings wouldn't exist.

Since Earth does exist, its sentient beings exist.

That's quite a significant difference, as far as I can tell.

If Earth didn't exist, this deity would be unable to manipulate its sentient beings into worshiping it to compensate for its insecurity. It would be unable to create the problem that allowed for this manipulation as well.

That's quite a negative difference, as far as I can tell.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 05:34:06 PM »
Eh, the existence may suck at times, but IMO it's better than nothing.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 05:42:01 PM »
Eh, the existence may suck at times, but IMO it's better than nothing.

If we look at it from the Bible's perspective, YHWH created the Earth as a means to an end; the end being what I mentioned in the OP. That is evil.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 05:52:14 PM »
It's sort of the opposite of the "ends justifying the means", isn't it?  Instead of doing a lesser evil in order to achieve a greater good, it's doing a lesser good in order to achieve a greater evil.   :P
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 08:19:07 PM »
It's sort of the opposite of the "ends justifying the means", isn't it?  Instead of doing a lesser evil in order to achieve a greater good, it's doing a lesser good in order to achieve a greater evil.   :P
this god guy goes from less than say 50,000(an estiamte)original Jewish worshippers and the rest of humanity will be sent to hell. What exactly is the purpose of a universe if he is only interested in a small number of worshippers? This God needed only to create worshippers and NOTHING else,not even an earth is needed just a plane on which his worshippers can exist to worship him.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 08:30:51 PM »
The point is 99.99% of humanity is to suffer because they fail to worship this God....that sounds EVIL
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 03:01:11 AM »
Guys we're on the verge of getting off-topic here. So, once again, this question is for theists - does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 04:03:22 AM »
Created sex. Often good, sometimes great, occasionslly magnificent, and once we even...um...sorry.

Continue.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 04:13:03 AM »
Created sex. Often good, sometimes great, occasionslly magnificent, and once we even...um...sorry.

Continue.

Sex requires a partner. Remember how it didn't create Eve until way after creating Adam? It did not create sex; Adam did.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 04:30:20 AM »
adam was just the first to experience an orgasm. God created the ability for it to happen.

It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 04:30:51 AM »
from whose perspective?
From what Ive been told by believers is that god is intrinsically good, thus everything he did is good b/c he did it. By what moral standard can we lowly humans hold god to? And this is the only available answer for theists that wish to keep their delusion or else admit that this god character is evil.

But we probably also have to ask if it is possible to do something with no negative results. For instance I think Lucifer the Gawd, convincing Eve to eat the fruit and give it to Adam too was a good thing because it gave them knowledge BUT it opened the door for god to unleash his sadistic punishment on all mankind. So can I consider that good?

In the end I'd say no, but I'm not a theist. This is what happens when you turn a myth into something its not supposed to be.

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 04:40:20 AM »
Yahweh doesn't do much of anything in the new testament. So, we need to look at the old testament. But in the old testament, Yahweh is very much a tribal god. So, any good he does is good only towards the in crowd.
The golden rule, for instance, is expressed in Leviticus 19:18 as "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself"
Which isn't really the golden rule at all; more like a bronze rule.
We see the same thing with the ten commandments. Moses is told, don't kill. He comes down his mountain and the first thing he does is kill 3000 people. the moral being ... Don't kill ... the in crowd ... everyone else, you can slice and dice however you want.
So, Yahweh does plenty of good stuff ... for the Ancient Hebrew ... everyone else is fucked.
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 04:41:45 AM »
But we probably also have to ask if it is possible to do something with no negative results. For instance I think Lucifer the Gawd, convincing Eve to eat the fruit and give it to Adam too was a good thing because it gave them knowledge BUT it opened the door for god to unleash his sadistic punishment on all mankind. So can I consider that good?

YHWH created the snake and the tree. It was all part of its plan, therefore it is entirely to blame and is evil for doing it.

adam was just the first to experience an orgasm. God created the ability for it to happen.

Did it now? I must've missed that part in the Bible.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 04:43:25 AM by Lucifer »
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 04:42:43 AM »
So, Yahweh does plenty of good stuff ... for the Ancient Hebrew ... everyone else is fucked.

And yet it supposedly created all of them. Once again, evil.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 04:49:36 AM »
But we probably also have to ask if it is possible to do something with no negative results. For instance I think Lucifer the Gawd, convincing Eve to eat the fruit and give it to Adam too was a good thing because it gave them knowledge BUT it opened the door for god to unleash his sadistic punishment on all mankind. So can I consider that good?

YHWH created the snake and the tree. It was all part of its plan, therefore it is entirely to blame and is evil for doing it.

adam was just the first to experience an orgasm. God created the ability for it to happen.

Did it now? I must've missed that part in the Bible.

if you are discussing the subject on the basis that the bible is true, then how else would you explain the orgasm?

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 04:53:36 AM »

YHWH created the snake and the tree. It was all part of its plan, therefore it is entirely to blame and is evil for doing it.

And thats exactly my point, is there anything he couldve done after 'creation' that couldnt be regressed back to this initial creation, and thus seen as bad?

for the sake of argument lets say yahwizzle created television. I think we can all agree television is great. But why is television great? because it entertains or eleviates boredom. Thus by creating us he created boredom and TV exposes that.

Alas, he didnt create TV though. How about trees? is creating trees a good thing? Minus that whole forbidden fruit thing. They supply us with oxygen, food, clothes for Adam and Eve to hide their genitals, something to climb on...

Offline The Wannabe

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 05:16:24 AM »
adam was just the first to experience an orgasm. God created the ability for it to happen.

Maybe God experienced the first orgasm when he ejaculated the universe into existence Ex nihilo?  I mean, wouldn't that be the perfect explanation for what caused the "Big Bang"!
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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 07:34:48 AM »
if you are discussing the subject on the basis that the bible is true, then how else would you explain the orgasm?

I used that poor argument to see your reaction. And yes, I know that this sounds like an excuse, but it is not. I also know that my reassurance won't (or shouldn't) mean anything to you, but whatever.

The thing is, orgasms are not as good as you make them out to be. Pleasurable activities have always been portrayed negatively in the Bible as "temptation". Orgasms are no different. You are not allowed to have them unless you have inflated YHWH's ego through marriage[1].

And thats exactly my point, is there anything he couldve done after 'creation' that couldnt be regressed back to this initial creation, and thus seen as bad?

YHWH is omnipotent, remember? It could easily do something like that.

How about trees? is creating trees a good thing? Minus that whole forbidden fruit thing. They supply us with oxygen, food, clothes for Adam and Eve to hide their genitals, something to climb on...

"Minus that whole forbidden fruit thing" is a bad way to start an argument. Obviously if we don't take into account everything that's wrong with something, we only get the good stuff (or nothing at all, depending on what the thing is).
 1. Marriage must first be approved by YHWH.
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Offline changeling

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 07:49:06 AM »
God only let Moses see his ass instead of his front parts.

That was a good thing. It could have destroyed the
self esteem of Moses for life having to compare his manhood to a God dong.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 08:15:45 AM »

"Minus that whole forbidden fruit thing" is a bad way to start an argument. Obviously if we don't take into account everything that's wrong with something, we only get the good stuff (or nothing at all, depending on what the thing is).
Yes, but thats because I used the word 'trees' as opposed to 'tree' if I were to point out each individual tree in the GOE excluding the tree in question would 'trees' then be negative? Would 'tree' be negative? Does one bad apple spoil the bunch? (monster of the double entendres)

Obviously the fact that we have to go to such semantics to show one good thing that this yahweh did proves the point. I mean sometimes I'm disbelief that we're here discussing some ancient tribal myth as if it has an effect on our lives. God is probably a message board administrator and we're all the posters... and he's trolling us with this yahweh.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 09:55:59 AM »
Interesting discussion, but it keeps getting derailed by extrapolation. I think the original question was, of the things which are explicitly recorded in the Bible as direct works of Yahwe, are there any which are unambiguously positive?

Creation takes up only a few lines, and it seems we have covered that without getting into the minutiae...What else has God specifically done? Allowed Satan to test Job? Saved Noah and his family at the expense of everyone else? Saved the firstborn of Israel at the expense of those of the Egyptians? Allowed various and sundry victories, leading to rape and pillage of those on the losing side?

I'm no Bible scholar, so I'm sure there are a lot of things in there which don't spring easily to mind, but it would seem that enough of Yahwe's direct acts would be described that a decent list could be made, with pros and cons of said actions.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Theists, does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 10:35:01 AM »
Guys we're on the verge of getting off-topic here. So, once again, this question is for theists - does YHWH do anything good in the Bible?

Since nothing will count to you as "good" due to it being included in a scenario that you see as broadly evil, I don't see why you're bothering with the question.
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