why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)

[Alzael]

Nothing new here, PP. We would all prefer God ticked all our boxes, but we have to take Him as He is I'm afraid. Well, I do.

Actually, I and (I think) most of us here would just settle for it if God ticked the boxes that he actually promised to tick. I'd call that fair enough.

[jynnan tonnix]

Nothing new here, PP. We would all prefer God ticked all our boxes, but we have to take Him as He is I'm afraid. Well, I do.

And as nice as many old ladies are, none are perfect and none can dwell with God because of it. God's justice is greater than ours.

Now, here's something that puzzles me: If God cannot be in the presence of sin, and all of us have inherent sin nature, why is the only other option eternal hell?

I suppose this is sort of where the whole "hell as separation from God" concept sprung from, as most normal people tend to find it pretty impossible to worship a deity who condemns sweet little old ladies to eternal suffering...but then again, why should this separation be so bad in and of itself?

There's plenty of sin going on here on earth all the time, yet God supposedly still manages to reach in and intervene pretty consistently, if the testimonies are to be trusted. Despite Satan supposedly having dominion over the place for the time being.

Evidently, the lack of intimate communion with god isn't the worst thing imaginable... Those of other or no faith manage to lead comfortable, fulfilling lives...I for one wouldn't see a continuation of the life I have now as any major hardship. OK, eternity might get a little long, but in general, it's been pretty good.

Why, then, would it be impossible for him to set up a separate "holding area" for those who did their best, even if they failed the test of accepting him? Why could there be no possible alternative than hell, when Earthly life seems as though it's pretty much a working compromise already?

[ParkingPlaces]

Why, then, would it be impossible for him to set up a separate "holding area" for those who did their best, even if they failed the test of accepting him? Why could there be no possible alternative than hell, when Earthly life seems as though it's pretty much a working compromise already?

If he were real, I'm guessing it would be a cinch. And if he were real, he would do good to use you as an advisor, jt, because you've got the right stuff.

If he's not real, things would be just about like they are right now. Hey, I wonder if that qualifies as proof that he doesn't exist? 

[wright]

And as nice as many old ladies are, none are perfect and none can dwell with God because of it. God's justice is greater than ours.

If you're basing your god's justice from what's revealed in the Bible, then no, magic. Human justice and compassion are superior to that god's version.

It frightens me, that you think a greater justice is served by condemning human beings to eternal torment for simply refusing to acknowledge an invisible, evidence-less being.

[ParkingPlaces]

You guys can give a name to your god's way of handling troublemakers, but don't use the word "justice". Your god has no idea what that is.

[Astreja]

My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?

It actually doesn't matter if a god's standard is "holy," "unholy," or randomly generated.  If a super-powerful being gets it in its mind that it wants to judge us, its motives and character are completely irrelevant because this being will do whatever it wants to do regardless of whether it's right or wrong.

Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.  Not a fun place according to the Bible.

A god that would toss mortals into a place of eternal punishment is infinitely evil and utterly undeserving of our respect.  Why do you debase yourself by worshipping such a being?

Christ died to take our punishment, to pay our debts to a holy and just God.

I once wrote an essay on this topic:  The Crucifixion Proves the Unjust Nature of the Christian God.  If we are unable to pay our own debts, then the debts are bogus.

And anyone who would deliberately let "Jesus" (or anyone else, for that matter) die in his place is, in My opinion, neither moral nor trustworthy.  Whom else would you sell up the river if the price was right?

[Historicity]

A windigo is not a god.  It's a vampire/ghoul/undead thing that used to be human.

When it cannibalizes someone (like a vampire it attacks its own family first) it grows but it grows skinnier with an even greater gnawing hunger. 

[Astreja]

To the Bible not being historically correct - Nazareth has been found; King David has existed.

New York City exists; in fact, I've been there Myself.  Casey Kasem exists.  Does that mean that Ghostbusters is historically correct?

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you follow Him?

If you mean the god described in the Bible, the answer is an emphatic NO.  I would, however, give it My best shot to destroy him.

Let me leave you with this:  Since you all believe I am talking "fairy tales", let me ask an "IF" question - If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?  Just think about it.  Be open minded.

That is the argument of a moral coward, who believes in an unconscionable and absurd scenario "just in case."  I must admit that the prospect of being tortured for eternity is somewhat displeasing to Me, but it's a vast improvement over spinelessly playing along with Biblegod's human sacrifice game.

[caveat_imperator]

Thor is real. - Really?

Looks like one god was able to keep a promise.

[Hatter23]

order takes intelligence - you said it is an argument from ignorance, but you didn't explain why it was ignorant.  I'm curious as to why you think that.

Ignorant, as in lacking knowledge...not as in obnoxious. If you claims something and same it it is true because you cannot disprove it, it is an argument from ignorance.

To see why it is a bad way of thinking look up the Flying Spaghetti monster. You should notice that it relies on an argument from ignorance, just like the creationist version of Yahweh does.

[pianodwarf]

I don't think crucifixion was easy - imagine undergoing that voluntarily? And thats just the physical suffering.

How do you know that Jesus suffered?  If we were talking about anybody else, I wouldn't be asking, but this is a guy who is purported to be omnipotent.  That being the case, it seems to me that he would be able to simply choose not to feel pain, wouldn't he?  If I were him, I know that that's exactly what I would do.  Why feel pain when there's no need or reason to?  And standard Christian doctrine doesn't say Jesus had to die horribly or in agony for our sins, it just says he had to die.  (For that matter, him dying of old age would have fulfilled the doctrine just as well.)

On the other hand, if there's anything in the gospels that actually says that he suffered, well, then, OK, I'll concede that you're correct, at least as far as the mythology goes.  I'm not aware of any such passage, but I'm not as well read on scripture as I should be (and as most others here are).

[Hatter23]

I don't think crucifixion was easy - imagine undergoing that voluntarily? And thats just the physical suffering.

How do you know that Jesus suffered?  If we were talking about anybody else, I wouldn't be asking, but this is a guy who is purported to be omnipotent.  That being the case, it seems to me that he would be able to simply choose not to feel pain, wouldn't he?  If I were him, I know that that's exactly what I would do.  Why feel pain when there's no need or reason to?  And standard Christian doctrine doesn't say Jesus had to die horribly or in agony for our sins, it just says he had to die.  (For that matter, him dying of old age would have fulfilled the doctrine just as well.)

On the other hand, if there's anything in the gospels that actually says that he suffered, well, then, OK, I'll concede that you're correct, at least as far as the mythology goes.  I'm not aware of any such passage, but I'm not as well read on scripture as I should be (and as most others here are).

Then we get to the point of WHY this was all needed; after all it was supposedly Jahweh who set up the rules in the first place. If someone told me I should really be grateful to a guy who banged his toes with a hammer and dangled them in raw sewage, because he decided that him doing so would have me grow less unwanted body hair, because he as the writer of the virtual reality program I lived in decided that to trigger the less unwanted body hair subroutine, it was needed to execute the hammer toes raw sewage program, I would think him just to be some sort of insane masochist, not someone I should be really grateful towards and worship.

[Frank]

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you follow Him?

No. I don't agree with his politics.

[One Above All]

To God being eternal so all of His acts are eternal - that makes no logical sense at all.  That would be like saying that anything you do in your lifetime would end the moment you do.

It does. You can't act if you're not alive. The repercussions, which is what you're talking about, do continue even after you're dead.

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you follow Him?

Your god? No. I will not worship anything less than what I consider perfect, and I most definitely would not worship evil.

Let me leave you with this:  Since you all believe I am talking "fairy tales", let me ask an "IF" question - If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?  Just think about it.  Be open minded.

I do not fear death, nor do I fear torture.

[screwtape]

Hi jb

First to the moderator with the green type: I know I'm treading in a mindfield.  Jesus says that those who persecute Him will also persecute me, so I'm willing to take it

Missing my point.  First of all, no one here persecuted jesus nor are they persecuting you. 

Secondly, "be obnoxious" was not among jesus' directives.  "Love your enemies," however, was.  So, please, love your enemies and and do as I asked.  Read the rules, learn to quote, introduce yourself properly and try to understand us before saying a bunch of stuff that is inapplicable and insulting.  It will make baby jesus smile. 

Thanks.

[velkyn]

OK.  Lots has happened since I was off the computer, so let me start with a few things.
First to the moderator with the green type: I know I'm treading in a mindfield.  Jesus says that those who persecute Him will also persecute me, so I'm willing to take it

ah, a wannabee martyr.  Sorry, you are no martyr, you are only one more Christian with the same poor excuses. 

To being out of my league - bring it on

  oh, it will be brought.  Let me make a prophecy now.  You’ll suddenly declare that you simply have no time for discussing the claims you’ve meant here. Let me inform you that you can request a one on one discussion and make your baseless claims to them for a more limited response. 

to not doing miracle - look at the context of the Scripture before you start applying it to whatever you want to

  I could say that to any Christian.  I know the context. Most Christians have no idea what it is and make it up as they want various pieces to mean different things.  It is cute to watch you try to avoid the hard questions by skipping from post to post.  It’s a rather obvious attempt.  No response to my evidence that you are wrong in so many of your claims about what the bible says?  Tsk.   The bible says clearly that anyone who follows JC will be able to do miracles.  I guess you can’t.  So, what are you doing wrong, JB?  Are you as damned as you hope we are? 

To God being eternal so all of His acts are eternal - that makes no logical sense at all.  That would be like saying that anything you do in your lifetime would end the moment you do.

So, god’s acts aren’t permanent.  Better tell the bible then.  Unfortunately for you, you are wrong again. 

To the Bible not being historically correct - Nazareth has been found; King David has existed.  There is lots of proof of that outside that Bible, the same with Jesus, the places of Paul's journeys as recorded by Luke, etc.

Again, you are wrong.  King David has not been shown to exist.  Nazareth *might* have one foundation somewhere close to where Christians want Nazareth to be.  And by your claims, that the ible is true because it mentions other cities?  That would make any modern thriller true, and would make Greek myths true.  Are they?  If they are, can I worship Athena just like your god?

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you follow Him?

Not if he’s the evil bastard shown in the bible.  I have higher standards than a run of the mill bronze/iron age god. 

Let me leave you with this:  Since you all believe I am talking "fairy tales", let me ask an "IF" question - If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?  Just think about it.  Be open minded.

Nope, not fearful at all.  Poor JB, is that all your religious faith is based on?  That you are so scared that you’d worship anything anytime anywhere if you thought you’d get out of hell? 

TO Velkyn, my friend, I am glad that you are not psychologically damaged.  But I am sad that you are not saved.

  How can you tell I’m not saved?  Maybe I am and you are the one who pissed off this god.  You can’t do any miracles can you so per your bible, that must be the reason. 

[velkyn]

Nothing new here, PP. We would all prefer God ticked all our boxes, but we have to take Him as He is I'm afraid. Well, I do.

And as nice as many old ladies are, none are perfect and none can dwell with God because of it. God's justice is greater than ours.

hmm, just how fair and just is it to damn someone for something that they didn't do?   Would you punish your son for something your wife did?  that's what your bible claims your god is doing. 

[Truth OT]

Bible says man can work way to heaven - I would really like to know what verse that is, because I, too, have read the Bible and it says that man gets to heaven by grace through faith, and that is a gift from God.

What verse says that jb? The text you are attempting to quote says NOTHING about Heaven. It is you and those that want to belief in a heavenly inheritance that have assumed Heaven into the text. The verse addresses a 1st century audience and tells them that THEY are to be saved because of the faith they have that has prompted them to believe and behave accordingly. The question that an honestly openminded reader should ask in reference to the text you mention is this: What did the grace spoken of allow the faith of the hearers to be saved from? Heaven and Hell are nowhere present in the context of the verse of book that you referenced.

Other Christians refute hell - so if I read a history book that says George Washington was the first president, but then I claim he wasn't, does that make me right?

So if I read a book that says that jbcalvert's great, great, great, great grandmother, Martha Calvert was the first president of the USA as opposed to George Washington, does that make it right and should I believe it?

More laws than the Ten Commandments - yes, under the old covenant there were more rules than the Ten Commandments, but Christ said that since He has come to make payment, that not all of those rules continue. We have a new covenant with Christ.

Do we? There's a New Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah that was specific to the land of ANE Israel, there's another New Covenant spoken of supposedly by Jesus according to Luke in chapter 20 that promised Jesus' select 12 a place at Jesus' table, and there is a hint of a New Covenant that 1st century believers that had been baptised and subsequently sealed with God's Holy Spirit were to be party to and reap the benefits of when King Jesus returned during the lifetime of their generation to judge the world and gather his elect to him in the SKY! However, I am not aware of any covenant with the names of our contemporaries on it.............

What I will claim, though, is that God has healed me and made me a different person than I was.  I did NOTHING to help myself, nor did anyone else, but God did it.  Why He chose me to do this for, only He knows, but I am a witness to the miracle He did in me.  That, my friend, is truth.

You attribute your change, excuse me your "healing" to the god you believe in; why? What evidence do you have that leads you to reasonably conclude such a thing? Are you relying on a feeling, or perhaps you saw this god in action? If you saw God in action can you describe God for us? What did God look like? Did God speak the healing into reality or did God spit on dirt and rub mud in the eyes your affliction?


-----------------------
    Here's the reality of the situation sarcasm finger pointing aside; there is no way to varify the existance of any specific deity/god. If granted the given premise that there is even a god, we have been given no way to understand it, describe it coherantly, and here's the biggie; to be able to TEST what we think we understand. In otherwords, we cannot even be sure that a god is, let alone what a god is like.
 

[nogodsforme]

There are no "originals" of the bible. There are some really old manuscripts, but these are copies of copies. The NT of the bible relied on oral stories passed around for a few decades before they were written down. There were alterations as the stories were written down.

Then there was a series of committee meetings to determine what manuscripts and stories would be included, and which would be left out. Other meetings decided what the correct beliefs about the writings were, and who would be a heretic and run out of town. Over the centuries various rulers and groups commissioned different translations and versions of the bible for their own purposes.

The bible is so long and convoluted that most people who profess to follow it and base their lives on it never read the whole thing. But, even without reading it,  they certainly try to get other people to follow it and base their lives on it, too. Because that is the only way to spread the religion, slowly, one missionary or (conquering army) bringing the word of god to the heathen at a time.

Only 1/3 of the world is Christian, and most of them are Catholics in 3rd world countries. Pretty poor showing for a god, after 2000 years of trying. There will be more Muslims than Christians someday, and the Christians had a 700 year long head start.

Now, would an all-powerful being rely on such a hit-and-miss method (oral stories, hand transcription, language translation, royal editing) to get his most important message out? Is that the best way to communicate to the entire world of humanity? We humans have invented better ways of communicating than that just in the past 100 years:  phone, internet, satellite tv....

Could he not just put the message in everyone's head at once, in their own language with no wasted time or chance of distortion? Why would this all-powerful being be limited to what primitive, fallible, ignorant humans can do? Hmmmm. Seems to be the same as if there was no god at all and people were just doing it all themselves.

[rev45]

Could he not just put the message in everyone's head at once, in their own language with no wasted time or chance of distortion?

How awesome would it be if god would do a reversal of the Tower of Babel?  Everyone on the planet suddenly speaking the same language.  Bye bye Rosetta Stone commercials. 

[Historicity]

Could he not just put the message in everyone's head at once, in their own language with no wasted time or chance of distortion? Why would this all-powerful being be limited to what primitive, fallible, ignorant humans can do?

Hey, give each ethnicity a chapter in their own language with enough continuity at the beginning and end and a checksum.  Then humanity would have to quest forth to assemble the holy scriptures and at the same time discover the brotherhood of man and peace and so on.  Add some swordplay and a damsel and 1200 pages of verbiage and I'd have a sellable swashbuckler.

[The Gawd]

I was thinkin he coulda made everyone be born with a Kindle or Nook, whichever they would prefer (he knows all) and simply download the shit he wanted to tell you on a personal level on an up to the minute basis. And if he woulda done this 2000 years ago how could I deny his greatness?

[jaimehlers]

- proving that God exists.  If you look at a wrist watch, you know it has been made by someone.  You don't have to know the person who did it to know it has been created.  You look at the universe, by the same way it had to get here someway.  Time has to be made by Something outside of time.  That would be God.

Oh?  Who says that time didn't always exist?  Who says the universe didn't always exist?  Who says you need to complicate matters unnecessarily by positing some "creator" who brought everything into existence, yet somehow existed without being brought into existence?  You see, you're just deferring things back one step and pretending that you don't have to explain that, too.  Simple explanations tend to be right, and the simplest one here is either "the universe always existed" or "the universe brought itself into existence".  Then you don't have to add in extra steps such as "creators" who have to have either always existed or brought themselves into existence.

- knowing that the God of the Bible is the One true god.  If you look at every world religion, they all say that man can do something to help earn his way to heaven/nirvana, etc....except Christianity, which says that man can do nothing to earn salvation.  Man would not make up a religion like this.

Why not?  You underestimate the human imagination.  And even if you're right that no other religion posits the "you can't win heaven for yourself" idea except Christianity, that doesn't say the first thing about which is actually correct.

- Christians can't decide if there is a hell or devil.  The Bible says there is, so there is.

Oh, please.  Christians can and do decide whether there is a hell and/or a devil, regardless of anything the Bible says (some Christians believe that hell is a false idea, others that it's an allegory, all the way to those who take it absolutely literally).  It's a variation on Self-Projection-As-God.

9. We know what the law is in the first place, in order to determine that we've broken it. - the Law is the Ten Commandments.  You can know if you have broken them: have you lied?  Have you stolen?  Have you put God first always?

Nope.  The Ten Commandments were a simplified set of rules which were dramatically expanded on in Leviticus.  You may note that Leviticus is what Moses came back with after getting pissed off at the Hebrews worshiping an idol.

Burden of proof - no, the burden of proof is on you.  I have God's Word that He is real.  What do you have that He is not?

You have words written by humans as proof.  In other words, you have no proof at all.  This would be akin to me claiming Anne McCaffrey's books prove that there is a Pern with Thread and dragons on it out there.

Foolish to believe when there is no evidence - I have evidence.  Creation is evidence.  If you would have known me before Christ came to live in me, then you would have seen other evidence.  For those who say "well, I was a Christian and He didn't change me".....no offense, but you weren't really saved.

No offense, but you aren't really a Christian.  Doesn't matter that you claim you are, doesn't matter that you believe you are, because I think you're wrong, and you don't fit my definition of what a Christian is.  That's the same fallacy you just used, in claiming that other people weren't really Christians or weren't really saved because they don't match your expectations.

Also, how is "creation" evidence?  You're basically saying that you're convinced of God because the universe exists.  Yet, God does not follow from the mere existence of the universe.  You have to be able to demonstrate that the universe could not have come about without this "being from outside time" to do it, and then you have the problem of where the being came from.

In 1 Corinthians, God says He uses foolishness to save.  If we could do something or explain something out and do anything of our own to save us, then God wouldn't be glorified.

The two books of Corinthians were written by Paul, not God.  Don't you even read your own Bible?

[pingnak]

I think we need some light viewing, re: How Jesus Suffered...

[nogodsforme]

I think we need some light viewing, re: How Jesus Suffered...

Thanks Mel.
Gibson, not Brooks.

I never saw that movie because I heard it was so violent it bordered on torture porn. From this clip I think that is absolutely correct. I could not watch the whole thing. And there were Christian families that forced their children to watch this. That is emotional child abuse. It would give me nightmares.

BTW I am not trying to minimize the torture of anyone, but even if Jesus was whipped and dragged and nailed, didn't that happen to lots of people back then? (Jesus was a political prisoner, and they are tortured even today in dictatorships...) Weren't those other guys hanging up there just thieves?

Seems to me the point should be to make sure nobody is ever tortured, not to celebrate and glorify one guy who was tortured.

[pingnak]

Bah, your peaceful hippy notions of 'golden rule' don't translate to rightwing politics.

If it's not hateful, and from fox news, it's anti-christian.

[Anfauglir]

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you follow Him?
.....If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?

No.  And Yes.  In that order.

You see, its not enough that your god be proven to exist for me to follow it.  Sure - belief would come - if your god were proven in the same way as cheese or Nelson's Column or whatever - then it'd be ridiculous not to.  But to follow it?  Worship it?  Sorry, but those do not necessarily follow, it would depend on what your god is actually proven to be.

Without your god appearing to each and every person and explaining its action, and answering our questions, all we have is the information given in the Bible - which , as Velkyn and others have said, is regularly contradictory.  But what DO we know, those of us bereft of Yahweh's direct revelation?  I'll just touch on one for now.....

That salvation comes at his whim, regardless of what we do, something you have asserted yourself to be the case.  Lets say I do everything the way he wants it - am I guaranteed a place in his heaven?  If so - and I have the unfettered ability to do those things - then you are wrong, and salvation rests entirely on my actions.  Result?  Yahweh cannot be described as good.
The alternative is that I can NOT assure my salvation, despite doing everything "right"...which means salvation comes at Yahweh's whim and will be granted to him, but not to him, despite them having lived identical lives.  Result?  Yahweh cannot be described as good.

So whichever way you cut it, your god isn't good - and that is immediately reason enough not want to follow him.  But there's more....

There is a state which humans can acheive where they are fitted for heaven.  An omnipotent god could have created each being IN that state, thus ensuring that nobody ever suffered for all eternity.  But he didn't - so he is not good.

Your god sets stringent conditions on how to earn salvation - one of which is "belief in Christ".  Belief in something undemonstrable is NOT under my control, nor under yours - I can prove that to you if you wish.  So your god sets conditions for salvation that may simply be impossible to acheive, despite the will being there.  So he is not good.

Are you seeing a pattern yet?

On to your next question - do I fear?  Fortunately not, because I have no reason to suppose that your chosen god from the thousands I could choose from is "really real".  Do YOU quake in your boots at night, wondering what Shiva will do to you when you die?  Are you wracked with guilt that your heart may be too heavy on the scales of Anubis?  Of course you don't - so neither am I fearful of your randomly chosen deity.

But if your god were proven to exist?  Yes, I'd fear - because for all the reasons I've given above, your god is NOT good, in any way that I understand it.  And as I try to be good, as I understand it, my choice would be to abase myself before something I believed to be wrong, or suffer the consequences of opposing a being who has shown himself to be vengeful, wrathful, and more than happy to consign people to torment for all eternity, just for disagreeing with him.

I hope that I would have the strength to stand up and say "no", rather than become a collaborator for fear of saving my own skin.

And I'll leave YOU with THIS thought......

Why would a good and loving god who wants the best for his creation and is worthy of our love and respect and worship.....why would such a creature have any need to make me "fearful"? 

[dloubet]

jbcalvert wrote:

If you look at a wrist watch, you know it has been made by someone.

But since according to you everything is designed, the statement might as well read: "If you look at a rock, you know it has been made by someone."

To you, rocks are just as designed as Space Shuttles. It must be hard for you to tell the difference between them.

[nogodsforme]

Both rocks and the Space Shuttle hurt when they fall on your head. Theory of Gravitation, but the again, it's just a theory.