Author Topic: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)  (Read 4540 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 03:51:40 PM »

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- knowing that the God of the Bible is the One true god.  If you look at every world religion, they all say that man can do something to help earn his way to heaven/nirvana, etc....except Christianity, which says that man can do nothing to earn salvation.  Man would not make up a religion like this.

I can think of lots of reasons that man would create such a religion.

Insanity, power, control, money, sloth, greed, a perceived need for tribal unity, vanity, jealosy, self loathing, even lust...yes many indeed.

You need look no further than two recently invented religions; Scientology and Mormonism. These demonstrate the multitude of reasons for making crap up.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Historicity

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2012, 03:52:02 PM »
My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard? 
God, of course, could be Brahma.  He resides in eternal bliss.  Sometimes He has a dream.  Then a new universe exists.  When He awakes the dream will disappear.  Is there evil in our universe?  That means that He is having a nightmare.[1]

This also logically follows from your premise tho not necessarily.  Even with your non-sequitur of skipping right into the Bible, Jesus does not follow necessarily from that premise, either.  Just ask a Jew or a Moslem.
 1. BTW, the Hindus have a number of contradictory creation stories.  This is just one.

Offline Omen

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2012, 03:53:26 PM »
God not outside of time - yes he is.

Actually, no.  This is the primary reason that the Kalam cosmological argument was made up, because if god exists forever then any act of god also exists forever and thus existence has existed for as long as god has existed.. ie forever. 
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Hatter23

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »
My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard? 
God, of course, could be Brahma.  He resides in eternal bliss.  Sometimes He has a dream.  Then a new universe exists.  When He awakes the dream will disappear.  Is there evil in our universe?  That means that He is having a nightmare.[1]

This also logically follows from your premise tho not necessarily.  Even with your non-sequitur of skipping right into the Bible, Jesus does not follow necessarily from that premise, either.  Just ask a Jew or a Moslem.
 1. BTW, the Hindus have a number of contradictory creation stories.  This is just one.

or in other words: Special Pleading.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jbcalvert

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2012, 03:58:00 PM »
Here are some more -

virtual particle, wave particle collapse, radiation - Sorry, I'll have to look that one up.

order takes intelligence - you said it is an argument from ignorance, but you didn't explain why it was ignorant.  I'm curious as to why you think that.

Bible isn't a history book - says who?

arguing against myself by saying God is eternal - no, not really.  Why can there not be an eternal God?

watch known to be created but universe is not - how do you know the universe is not created?  You're assuming that...

nothing to do to be forgiven - IF I made that unclear, I apologize.  We can't do anything to earn forgiveness.  It only comes from the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

I'm going to be away from a computer for most of the night, but please keep the posts coming or you may email me at jbcalvert0912@gmail.com.  I would love to hear from you.

Online Azdgari

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2012, 04:07:23 PM »
This one just doesn't have the horsepower for a real discussion of anything of substance.

Moving along...
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2012, 04:10:15 PM »
This one just doesn't have the horsepower for a real discussion of anything of substance.

Moving along...
but if he would put down his "daily bread" and listen, it could be a teaching moment. we see he was going to look up the particles and things. It takes a while to wipe clean the years of church abuse.

Offline Omen

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2012, 04:18:04 PM »
order takes intelligence - you said it is an argument from ignorance, but you didn't explain why it was ignorant.  I'm curious as to why you think that.

You don't actually know that order takes intelligence and your argument is inherently circular in that you already presuppose your conclusion.  We can already observe emergent properties where order arises on its own, it only requires the combination of random variation in an environment.

Not to mention that there really isn't any qualification for a lack of order, there is nothing to compare it to.  What would an existence without 'order' look like, but nothing at all.

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Bible isn't a history book - says who?

Says virtually every historical academia in the world.  The bible is not considered a historical treatise.  It has some references that are historical, but most of it is entirely rejected as cultural allegory.  At best the bible briefly confirms history in the early 8th century BCE and sometime beyond that.  However, virtually everything prior to that is simply non-existent.  No King David, no exodus, no great egyptian slave horde, no genocidal romping through the land of canaan, no tower of babel myth, no flood, no garden of eden, etc. etc.

We 'know' this precisely because what we don't find and what do find.  We don't have archaeological evidence of monolithic monotheistic judaism prior to the 8th century BCE, we do have various archaeological remains of polytheistic semitic cultures ( that doesn't mean jewish ) that are often considered to be canaanites.  We don't have evidence of genocidal jewish horde moving around the land of canaan from 1400 bce t0 1000 bce, we do have evidences of Egypt occuping portions of the land of canaan, waring canaanite tribes, and various other invaders by groups that the bible doesn't even see fit to mention.. yet.. made such an impact on the civilizations of the day that virtually all of them take note.  We don't have evidence of giant slave hordes building the monuments of egypt, we do have cultured communities which make up the worker camps and cities that surrounded major monuments.  It was just a way of life for them and the idea of egypt as having these huge groups of slaves that did their bidding is largely a fantasy.

The examples go on and on and on, but needless to say.. the bible is not historical.

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arguing against myself by saying God is eternal - no, not really.  Why can there not be an eternal God?

This is irrelevant.  Why can't there be an eternal existence?

The problem is that you don't actually seem to know how time works, you're stuck in thinking of time in a linear mode that extends in a line from point A to point B.  This fundamentally is NOT how time operates.  Instead time is directly dependent upon a function of mass and velocity, time changes based on how fast and how much mass we have.   In physics this is known as a B-theory of time or a 'block' universe, where all points in time exist and what we call the present is just a narrow illusion that we experience.

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watch known to be created but universe is not - how do you know the universe is not created?  You're assuming that...

I don't have to assume it is or it is not created.  I don't know.

You're already assuming that it is, unjustifiably.

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nothing to do to be forgiven - IF I made that unclear, I apologize.  We can't do anything to earn forgiveness.  It only comes from the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

Nope.

I have no will or choice as to the guilt that is laid upon me in christianity.  That is to say I have no choice in the action of adam and eve.  Their 'sin' is forced upon me in terms that are unjust and rob me of my will to choose.  This as a concept is fundamentally at odds with reality as to how we treat guilt, innocence, and responsibility.  It contradicts both ethical values that you claim, that are considered normal, and the rational application of those terms and their meaning in english.  I am no more guilty of the action of my father than the action of Adam and Eve ( ignoring that they didn't really exist ).

I am also not given a choice as to whether or not I would allow someone to be punished in my 'stead', I'm robbed again of both action and will as to whether or not I can determine my own responsibility or desire to make a difference.  Again, all notion of guilt, innocence, and responsibility are again at odds with how we deal with those terms in reality.  They are rendered utterly meaningless in a theological concept that makes one as guilty as they are innocent and deemed responsible for something that happened when they themselves did not even exist.

The 'sacrifice' of jesus is also empty rhetoric as well, the physical mutilation of flesh is of no consequence to a being of omnipotent and omniscient ability.  It can as easily be jesus or have jesus again as a child kicking over a pile of stones could simply pile the stones back up.  The child calling that act a 'sacrifice' is as pointedly without rational merit as calling the the physical torture and murder of jesus as a 'sacrifice'.  God does not give anything up that it does not still have.  Plus, we are still guilty and condemned for not believing, hence the sacrifice accomplished nothing.  Also, considering that the fall never happened, then jesus was 'sacrificed' for a metaphor rather than a real actual event that brought some kind of 'fall'.  Which again.. invites inherent contradiction to the theology.

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I'm going to be away from a computer for most of the night, but please keep the posts coming or you may email me at jbcalvert0912@gmail.com.  I would love to hear from you.

We are simply better educated JB are you sure you're not out of your league?
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Offline Historicity

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2012, 04:29:26 PM »
Bible isn't a history book - says who?

Historians and archeologists.  Joshua was supposed to massacre his way across Palestine in 5 years to establish the state of Israel.  Archeology has not identified 3 of the cities named but the rest have been.  Only 3 were destroyed in the time when Joshua could have been there.  The conquest of one in the era has been found in Egyptian records.  It was taken by the Egyptian army and the Egyptians negotiated a surrender.  Another city was destroyed after Joshua was long dead and it is datable to the statue of a pharoah so the Egyptians retained control of some of the cities in Israel.  Some of the cities were founded after the supposed conquest.  The Book of Joshua is a propaganda piece written about the same time as Homer.  The founding invasion of Israel did not happen.

Nazareth has never been found.  There is a valley with some caves alleged to be Nazareth but the Israelis don't want to contradict that so as not to offend their western supporters and tourists.  That valley has an abandoned graveyard and signs of temporary occupation.  It's not kosher to live on a graveyard so any inhabitants were not Jews.  And, no, there are no cliffs in the area from which people could throw Jesus to kill him.

There are also no cliffs near Gedara or Gesara, where a herd of mad pigs could rush into the lake.

Offline velkyn

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2012, 04:29:39 PM »
So this is for velkyn's reply:
God not outside of time - yes he is.  If I make an aquarium, can I not influence what goes on in it?
Not if you can’t tell what time it is.  You would have no idea what to do when.  All you’ve done is special pleading, JB, which every single other religion does too. Again, nothing special.  Every theist is sure they are some special snowflake that has some magical truth about the universe and that some magical being cares for them and only them.   
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Bible says man can work way to heaven - I would really like to know what verse that is, because I, too, have read the Bible and it says that man gets to heaven by grace through faith, and that is a gift from God
Alas, it does not.  The bible has various ways to get to heaven, including grace, and often it contradicts itself.  JC said himself that only believe in him was required (John 3, you remember?).  He then said that works were needed (Matthew 25).  James also agrees (James 2). The usual Christian excuse for this is to falsely claim that only good Christians can do good works.  Alas, the real world shows that this is wrong. It is only Paul who says that one gets to heaven (well, you get there only if you are Jewish virgin, it’s the city of New Jerusalem on a new earth that everyone else gets) by faith.  Even Paul isn’t quite sure about that since he tells Timothy that women only get saved by childbirth.   
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Other Christians refute hell - so if I read a history book that says George Washington was the first president, but then I claim he wasn't, does that make me right?
Nope, but as I have said, Christians don’t agree on what God really meant. Your supposed savior also said to give up all of your possessions, including your family and follow him.  Have you done that, JB?  Or will you claim that JC was only talking to that one young man?  Many Christians do so they won’t have to give up their comfy chairs and computers and modern medicine. 
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More laws than the Ten Commandments - yes, under the old covenant there were more rules than the Ten Commandments, but Christ said that since He has come to make payment, that not all of those rules continue.  We have a new covenant with Christ.
Oh but those first ten were under the old convenant too.  So, decide, JB, which way do you want to have it?  JC never said only follow the first ten. He said to follow all of his father’s laws repeatedly and he came to fulfill the laws, not to end them.  He only had trouble with the Pharisees since he thought they were misusing them.
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Matthew 23: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
JC is saying follow the law and don’t become hypocrites as the Pharisees are when they do not follow it.
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Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
seems that the earth and heavens are still here, JB.  It is only Paul and those who are seeking a new audience since JC failed to return that decide that the law doesn’t have to be followed. Shall you follow your messiah or someone who claimed to see him on a road and who contradicts the supposed messiah? 

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Thor is real. - Really?  When did say he was real?
I did, just like you are saying about your god.  You have nothing more than a book that is so ridiculously flawed that it makes me laugh to think of a god that would allow such a thing. Your god is as useless and imaginary as any gods.  Unless, of course you care to show that he exists.  Can you?  Where are those miracles, JB? 
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Christians agreeing - no, we don't always agree...but neither do atheists
Why no atheists don’t agree?  We also don’t tell lies that we know some magical nonsense that gods have told us is the only way not to go to hell. 
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testing God and healing - No, I would not claim that we shouldn't test God, because there are places in the Bible that says we should test God in some areas of life.  No, I will not claim that God will strike down an alter for me like He did for Elijah.  No, I will not say that God will let me heal like He did Jesus, or Peter, or Paul.  I will not claim that I am the only right Christian, for there are many who know more than I do.  What I will claim, though, is that God has healed me and made me a different person than I was.  I did NOTHING to help myself, nor did anyone else, but God did it.  Why He chose me to do this for, only He knows, but I am a witness to the miracle He did in me.  That, my friend, is truth.
Good for you, you know this much at least.  JB, you’ve already declared you are the only right Christian, so too late for that.  Of course you won’t do anything like you should be able to.  You’d fail and you can't have that, can you? But there goes your fait out the door, since you don't trust your god and what he supposedly said.  JC said that anyone who follows him would be able to do the same miracles as he did and even more.  Do you follow Jesus Christ, JB?  IF so, then make with the miracles.  Anything less indicates that you are simply a wannabee. 
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John 14: 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
People get better all of the time and not by  only Christianity. So you fail there too.
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Wisdom of the world - The Bible doesn't say that wisdom of the world is bad.  God said that He doesn't use the wisdom of the world to save, so that man might think he saves himself.
  So, now foolish isn’t bad; e.g. in opposition to your bible verse, the world isn’t foolish, it isn’t bad to not know about your god.  Good to know.    And JC does say that the wisdom of the world is bad. Matthew 16, Luke 16, oh, John 7 is a good one
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John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil
  So, hurry, JB, and get rid of all of those things that God hates. 
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One personal question for you, Velkyn:  Why are you so angry?  Toward me?  Toward Christianity?  Did someone in the church hurt you?  I don't want this to be a public issue, but I have no other way to contact you to ask you personally.  I would like to know where your anger stems from?  No disrespect intended.
It’s not too personal at all, JB.  I’d ask the same type of questions.  Sorry to disappoint you, JB, but I’m not angry with you at all.  I think you are mistaking anger with me ridiculing your religion just like I ridicule any religion hat makes claims with no evidence.  You are just one more delusional Christian and heck, my parents are that.  I do get angry with the lies inherent in Christianity, but they are the same as the lies in any religion.  I read the bible and found it was utterly wrong.  I prayed and prayed and gee no god message, just like you get from praying to Allah or Krishna, the Goddess or any other god.  I did notice that Christians weren’t any better than anyone else but boy did they want people to think that.  So, it was simply evidence that made me an atheist.

I do get angry when Christians harm others over their religion.  I’m sure you would be to, if it weren’t your religion.  I know you’d love to think that I have some horrible psychological scarring but, no, I just find people who believe in imaginary nonsense and then who hurt people over it to be pretty silly.  I mean wouldn’t you, if someone said that their god said it was okay to kill Christians because they broke that god’s laws and they had nothing to back up their claims?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2012, 04:46:06 PM »

Hi jbcalvert

Welcome to our forum.  You are new, so please understand the green text indicates I am acting as a moderator, not a participant in the discussion.

You are treading in a minefield, but don't worry, I'm here to help.  First, if you have not done so already, please read the forum Rules, the Users Guide and the Quoting Tutorial

After that, read some of the threads.  A lot of what you are saying is old hat for the more experienced posters. We have not come to lose our belief in gods lightly nor without serious consideration. Most of us were religious once and many people here probably know the bible a lot better than you do.

If after that you still want to have a discussion, I recommend posting an Introduction thread and maybe a Testimonial thread so we have a better idea of who you are and what you believe.

If you have any questions, feel free to send a private message to a mod or other staff member.

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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2012, 06:13:04 PM »
OK.  So let me try to tackle a few more of these posts.

Assumption that all things were created. - The universe has order.  Cell structure, grouping of protons and electrons, mathematics, etc.  And the atheist believes that this came from nothing.  So nothing became something and made everything.  I don't know of any proof that nothing can become something and make order.  That takes intelligence....

Just because something seems to violate your version of common sense doesn't mean that it is wrong. That you cannot understand how order comes from disorder doesn't mean that it does not happen. That only means that you are confused by the concept. And that you find your answer somewhat comforting.

The scientists that we follow and appreciate have no trouble seeing where that which we call order came from.

Your biggest error is assuming that nothing could happen in the first place. The default is obviously "something" for you (i.e. god) while for us it is energy and matter, two states of being that move from one condition to the other on a regular basis. The big bang wasn't making something from nothing. It was changing energy to matter on a larger scale than before. At least as far as this universe is concerned. And I for one appreciate it.  :)

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Why there is the "odd exception" - being God - who wasn't created - For time and space to exist, something out of time and space would have had to make it exist.  Things don't just appear out of nothing.

So it's okay with you that the state of nothing never existed (again, either your god or the forces that created him had to be eternal) but it's not okay for the conditions that created our universe as we know it to always exist. Why do you think that your way is absolutely right and the one that science describes is wrong? You aren't perchance a bit biased, are you?

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realizing that my audience doesn't consider the Bible to be reliable - What?!?!  This isn't the the Bible blog???  I must be in the wrong place  :)  The Bible has more accurate copies of manuscripts than any other book in history.  I don't understand how it's not reliable.  Are the history books in schools reliable?

I'm not quite sure who decided the bible is so accurate. Again, it sounds a little biased to me. Hindu's are pretty sure their book is accurate too. As are the muslims. How are their standards different and worse than yours, given that both are relying on their own religion to tell them that it is right. As are you.

And no, the history books in schools are not accurate. Winners wrote them. And myths have snuck in. Paul Revere is studied not because he was the most heroic dude in Boston that night, but because his name rhymed with "hear", while poor William Dawes got ignored (Look my children and you shall saws, of the midnight ride of William Dawes? Doesn't sound right, does it.) There were other riders as well that seldom get mentioned. And the Lewis and Clark expedition? We've all studied that, but did you know there was a a concurrent expedition into the southwest called the "Red River Expedition" that was turned back by the French and hence weren't gone as long or quite as successful? Nope, school history isn't accurate. Nor is the bible, which is also full of academic shortcomings. If you're not biased.

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All people are going to hell according to Christianity - no, not everyone.  Everyone has the chance to repent and trust in the sacrifice of Christ for the payment of their debt to God.  If you don't, then yes, hell will be the final destination.

How sweet. As much as that attracts me to your loving god, you should know that hundreds of christians have come here and tried to tell us more or less the same thing (there are many christian interpretations as to what hell is, but that's beside the point), Those of not inclined to be suckered into silly tales see the many similarities between the christian myth and the many other myths in existence, myths that even you would agree are just that: myths. That you happen to see one as not mythical but rather factual explains little. And if the best you can do is repeat the various christian mantras (going to hell, jc loves us, etc) you are unlikely to make any headway in explaining why christianity is the truth. Toss in atheistic biases (ones we've worked hard to create, I'm sure) and your task is that much harder.

There is no hell, so nobody is going there. That it is important to you that billions suffer for not doing things your way while we atheists think the concept a pretty frickin' horrible and empty threat doesn't say a whole lot about your morality. Well, nothing you should broadcast, anyway.

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Bible speaking to killing homosexuals, etc. - Everyone has broken the Laws of God.  Everyone deserves to die.  So for these things to happen is not out of place.  We deserve a righteous judgement for sinning against a Righteous Judge.  But God extends grace to us.  He wants us to repent.  That is why this death isn't extended out to every one yet.

Lets see. He created Adam and Eve. He knows everything (not inlcuding that time he had to ask where Eve was. Go figure) so he knew they would violate his one rule, then he does it with a virgin and gets a kid to sacrifice (something he also knew would happen) and he limited the sacrifice to three days, a period of time that matched the sacrifice length of many previous and obviously false god figures, then he insists that we are born evil and do nothing but evil and wants us to accept the semi-death of the kid he sent here to semi-die so that we can be born again (or whatever variation you think is absolutely correct) and if we don't, it's into the barbecue for us, whether we killed 500 people or farted in the produce aisle. As sensible as that may sound to you, there are those of us who look at the overall tale a bit more critically, and we see flaw upon flaw with all of it. I always remember the time when I was living in New England and a local baptist church had a sign out front: Come to the Clam Bake Tonight!" Homosexuals are an abomination. So is eating from the sea little thingies that are not of scale or fin, or whatever it says. Clams are definitely not on the list. So they could damn the homosexuals while sitting around the fire and enjoying their clam bake and think nothing of it. Are perhaps the rules spelled out in the bible only their for people's convenience: i.e., if it's convenient, they follow them. If not, they don't. I can't help but notice there aren't many news stories out there covering all the people who sin by working on Sunday, or who stone their christian daughters (the muslims have other standards) for whatever reason, nor any stories about how a woman has been sentence to have her hand chopped off because she happened to touch her husband's attacker's genitals while trying to protect her hubby. But the homosexual thing. I hear that all the time. What gives?

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hearing the watch maker analogy - you may have heard it many times, but I didn't disprove it.

You are starting to remind of of the theist who said "It takes energy to create order and without god the only way order could be created on earth would be if there were an external source!" (I'm paraphrasing. I don't know how to quote an idiot enough to find his exact words in google.)

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not knowing whether the Ten Commandments is the Law - if the Supreme God of all things gives a law, is it not the law?

I'm pretty sure it is the law if a real live supreme being said it. Given that there is no god, his ability to influence such things is minimal.

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Why an omnimax being needs to be glorified - here is a similar example: if the President of the United States showed up at the Oval office one day and came out to a news press and said, "you know, I don't think this position is very important.  My cousin Bob, who is a professional couch potato, is going to take over for me.  Good luck with everything", took off his jacket, dropped it on the floor, and walked out the front door, what would you think?  What would the world think?  The United States would be a laughing stock and no one would take the position as seriously as they did before.  God is the Holiest, the most Righteous.  He deserves glory and honor above all like the position of president deserves glory and honor above the position of couch potato.

Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of fundy republicans who would be pretty happy if our current president handed power over to someone whose weight was consistent with their idea of the perfect body, or even a comatose jehovah's witness (but I repeat myself). However, the issue here is glorification, a subject so far outside of my own interests that it is not currently worthy of discussion. I'm sure I'll look at the situation a bit differently if you can manage to convince me that there might be a god. But until you can get past the basic flaws in your way of thinking (he loves me, so it's okay if I fart in the produce aisle), I suggest you stay away from the deep and heavy aspects of your belief system. If you haven't made progress one on convincing us that there is a god, attempting to school us on appropriate ways to prostrate ourselves is a bit premature.

A little word of advice. Sitting in front of your keyboard and asking yourself "I don't see why they don't believe all this sh*t" while we atheists sit in front of our keyboards asking other atheists "Do you believe this sh*t" is not a sign or progress. Those are two very different attitudes, and you are going to have to find some other way besides just barely rephrasing the words of the many, many other christians whose presence here we have enjoyed for years, if you hope to do anything more than just use up bandwidth.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline jbcalvert

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2012, 07:00:08 PM »
OK.  Lots has happened since I was off the computer, so let me start with a few things.

First to the moderator with the green type: I know I'm treading in a mindfield.  Jesus says that those who persecute Him will also persecute me, so I'm willing to take it :)

To being out of my league - bring it on

to not doing miracle - look at the context of the Scripture before you start applying it to whatever you want to

To God being eternal so all of His acts are eternal - that makes no logical sense at all.  That would be like saying that anything you do in your lifetime would end the moment you do.

To the Bible not being historically correct - Nazareth has been found; King David has existed.  There is lots of proof of that outside that Bible, the same with Jesus, the places of Paul's journeys as recorded by Luke, etc.

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you follow Him?

Let me leave you with this:  Since you all believe I am talking "fairy tales", let me ask an "IF" question - If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?  Just think about it.  Be open minded.


TO Velkyn, my friend, I am glad that you are not psychologically damaged.  But I am sad that you are not saved.   

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2012, 07:24:28 PM »

Let me leave you with this:  Since you all believe I am talking "fairy tales", let me ask an "IF" question - If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?  Just think about it.  Be open minded.


If he exists, he has fallen far short of my expectations of a deity. The hell thing is a case in point. And no, even if it is real I don't fear it. If it's good enough for billions of others, it's good enough for me. An eternity of suffering beats the crap out of kissing some guys ass for equally as long.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline The Gawd

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2012, 07:29:42 PM »
to not doing miracle - look at the context of the Scripture before you start applying it to whatever you want to
Magic Decoder Ring much? You'll have to explain why you are the only on the face of the earth with the correct context of the miserable book.

Then, I'll need you to provide the context to when genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, and the subjugation of women is EVER acceptable.

To the Bible not being historically correct - Nazareth has been found; King David has existed.  There is lots of proof of that outside that Bible, the same with Jesus, the places of Paul's journeys as recorded by Luke, etc
You should have no problem providing the links to these... and please a reputable site.

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you follow Him?
Which god? Zeus? Allah (who IS actually the god of the bible too)? Thor? Flying Spaghetti Monster? I need to know which one. The god of the bible? nope, he wouldnt be worthy of my following if the bible is true. As a matter of fact he'd probably spit in your face for suggesting that book described him.

Let me leave you with this:  Since you all believe I am talking "fairy tales", let me ask an "IF" question - If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?  Just think about it.  Be open minded.
see above answer.
TO Velkyn, my friend, I am glad that you are not psychologically damaged.  But I am sad that you are not saved.
saved from what? imaginary eternal torment for using her brain? Prove it exists.


Lets be honest, the bible gives detailed examples of thousands of years of failure after failure of your god. Even if he exists I doubt he has the capability to even pull off his threat of eternal torment. He'd be bound to fail at that too.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 07:48:22 PM by The Gawd »

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2012, 07:43:36 PM »
Let me leave you with this:  Since you all believe I am talking "fairy tales", let me ask an "IF" question - If God really exists, if we have all really sinned against Him, and if His Son Jesus is really the only way to heaven, then aren't you fearful?  Just think about it.  Be open minded.

Again, what god are you saying exists for the purposes of this argument? I'm betting it's your own image; what we here call SPAG (Self Projection As God). That's what we usually get from Christians who pose this question.

The literal god of the Bible, as contradictory, petulant and cruel as it is clearly shown to be, would only be something to be feared and resisted. Even if the worst contradictions and cruelty were shown to be wrong and god proved to be closer to the "nice" version found in the New Testament, that god would have a lot to answer to before I could accept its authority.

Here's my signature quote in it's entirety. It sums up my views pretty well...
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Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Willie

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2012, 07:53:26 PM »
To the Bible not being historically correct - Nazareth has been found; King David has existed.  There is lots of proof of that outside that Bible, the same with Jesus, the places of Paul's journeys as recorded by Luke, etc.
It takes more than that. It is not at all uncommon for works of fiction to mention real places or people, and sometimes significant historical events as well. All that the confirmation of the existence of Nazareth, King David, etc. proves is that the authors knew of those things. Some real-world cameos in what otherwise appears to be a book of mythology (talking snakes, giants, etc.) is not a good reason to think that it must be a historical work.

Some parts of the Harry Potter stories take place in London. London is provably real. Also mentioned is Kings Cross Station, a real rail station in London. Therefore Harry Potter is a historical narrative and Hogwarts, Lord Voldemort, etc. must be real. Not a very compelling argument, is it?

Edit: Changed "author" to "authors" in the third sentence.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 08:35:07 PM by Willie »

Offline Energized

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2012, 08:00:52 PM »
You are out of your league. You're also being disrespectful to some people who have directly answered your posts with well thought out replies and who have asked you questions. But rather than answer, you simply continue to preach and lie about your evidence. You aspire to be more like Jesus, yet your own bible teaches he didn't try to skirt controversy like you have.

You ask a question:

Let me ask you all one question - IF God was proven to exist beyond any doubt, would you....

Which god?


There’s Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-’Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba’Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du’uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), Zurvan, Ba, Caishen, Chang Fei, Chang Hsien, Chang Pan, Ch’ang Tsai, Chao san-Niang, Chao T’eng-k’ang, Chen Kao, Ch’eng Huang, Cheng San-Kung, Cheng Yuan-ho, Chi Po, Chien-Ti, Chih Jih, Chih Nii, Chih Nu, Ch’ih Sung-tzu, Ching Ling Tzu, Ch’ing Lung, Chin-hua Niang-niang, Chio Yuan-Tzu, Chou Wang, Chu Niao, Chu Ying, Chuang-Mu, Chu-jung, Chun T’i, Ch’ung Ling-yu, Chung Liu, Chung-kuei, Chung-li Ch’an, Di Jun, Fan K’uei, Fei Lien, Feng Pho-Pho, Fengbo, Fu Hsing, Fu-Hsi, Fu-Pao, Gaomei, Guan Di, Hao Ch’iu, Heng-o, Ho Po (Ping-I), Hou Chi, Hou T’u, Hsi Ling-su, Hsi Shih, Hsi Wang Mu, Hsiao Wu, Hsieh T’ien-chun, Hsien Nung, Hsi-shen, Hsu Ch’ang, Hsuan Wen-hua, Huang Ti, Huang T’ing, Huo Pu, Hu-Shen, Jen An, Jizo Bosatsu, Keng Yen-cheng, King Wan, Ko Hsien-Weng, Kuan Ti, Kuan Ti, Kuei-ku Tzu, Kuo Tzu-i, Lai Cho, Lao Lang, Lei Kung, Lei Tsu, Li Lao-chun, Li Tien, Liu Meng, Liu Pei, Lo Shen, Lo Yu, Lo-Tsu Ta-Hsien, Lu Hsing, Lung Yen, Lu-pan, Ma-Ku, Mang Chin-i, Mang Shen, Mao Meng, Men Shen, Miao Hu, Mi-lo Fo, Ming Shang, Nan-chi Hsien-weng, Niu Wang, Nu Wa, Nu-kua, Pa, Pa Cha, Pai Chung, Pai Liu-Fang, Pai Yu, P’an Niang, P’an-Chin-Lien, Pao Yuan-ch’uan, Phan Ku, P’i Chia-Ma, Pien Ho, San Kuan, Sao-ch’ing Niang, Sarudahiko, Shang Chien, Shang Ti, She chi, Shen Hsui-Chih, Shen Nung, Sheng Mu, Shih Liang, Shiu Fang, Shou-lao, Shun I Fu-jen, Sien-Tsang, Ssu-ma Hsiang-ju, Sun Pin, Sun Ssu-miao, Sung-Chiang, Tan Chu, T’ang Ming Huang, Tao Kung, T’ien Fei, Tien Hou, Tien Mu, Ti-tsang, Tsai Shen, Ts’an Nu, Ts’ang Chien, Tsao Chun, Tsao-Wang, T’shai-Shen, Tung Chun, T’ung Chung-chung, T’ung Lai-yu, Tung Lu, T’ung Ming, Tzu-ku Shen, Wa, Wang Ta-hsien, Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang, Weiwobo, Wen-ch’ang, Wu-tai Yuan-shuai, Xi Hou, Xi Wangmu, Xiu Wenyin, Yanwang, Yaoji, Yen-lo, Yen-Lo-Wang, Yi, Yu, Yu Ch’iang, Yu Huang, Yun-T’ung, Yu-Tzu, Zaoshen, Zhang Xi, , Zhin, Zhongguei, , Zigu Shen, , Zisun, Ch’ang-O, Aba-khatun, Aigiarm, Ajysyt, Alkonost, Almoshi, Altan-Telgey, Ama, Anapel, As-ava, Ausaitis, Austeja, Ayt’ar, Baba Yaga (Jezi Baba), Belobog (Belun), Boldogasszony, Breksta, Bugady Musun, Chernobog (Crnobog, Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog), Cinei-new, Colleda (Koliada), Cuvto-ava, Dali, Darzu-mate, Dazhbog, Debena, Devana, Diiwica (Dilwica), Doda (Dodola), Dolya, Dragoni, Dugnai, Dunne Enin, Edji, Elena, Erce, Etugen, Falvara, The Fates, The Fatit, Gabija, Ganiklis, Giltine, Hotogov Mailgan, Hov-ava, Iarila, Isten, Ja-neb’a, 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Hari-Hara, Hulka Devi, Jagganath, Jyeshtha, Kama, Karttikeya, Krishna, Krtya, Kubera, Kubjika, Lakshmi or Laksmi, Manasha, Manu, Maya, Meru, Nagas, Nandi, Naraka, Nataraja, Nirriti, Parjanya, Parvati, Paurnamasi, Prithivi, Purusha, Radha, Rati, Ratri, Rudra, Sanjna, Sati, Shashti, Shatala, Sitala (Satala), Skanda, Sunrta, Surya, Svasti-devi, Tvashtar, Uma, Urjani, Vach, Varuna, Vayu, Vishnu (Avatars of Vishnu: Matsya; Kurma; Varaha; Narasinha; Vamana; Parasurama; Rama; Krishna; Buddha; Kalki), Vishvakarman, Yama, Sraddha, Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Ama no Uzume, Ama-terasu, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Benten (Benzai-Ten), Bishamon, Chimata-No-Kami, Chup-Kamui, Daikoku, Ebisu, Emma-O, Fudo, Fuji, Fukurokuju, Gekka-O, Hachiman, Hettsui-No-Kami, Ho-Masubi, Hotei, Inari, Izanagi and Izanami, Jizo Bosatsu, Jurojin, Kagutsuchi, Kamado-No-Kami, Kami, Kawa-No-Kami, Kaya-Nu-Hima, Kishijoten, Kishi-Mojin, Kunitokotatchi, Marici, Monju-Bosatsu, Nai-No-Kami, No-Il Ja-Dae, O-Kuni-Nushi, Omoigane, Raiden, 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Ogyinae , Ag, Agwe , Aida Wedo , Ajalamo, Aje, Ajok, Akonadi, Akongo, Akuj, Amma, Anansi, Asase Yaa, Ashiakle, Atai , Ayaba, Aziri, Baatsi, Bayanni, Bele Alua, Bomo rambi, Bosumabla, Buk, Buku, Bumba, Bunzi, Buruku, Cagn, Candit, Cghene, Coti, Damballah-Wedo, Dan, Deng, Domfe, Dongo, Edinkira, Ef, Egungun-oya, Eka Abassi, Elephant Girl Mbombe, Emayian, Enekpe, En-Kai, Eseasar, Eshu, Esu, Fa, Faran, Faro, Fatouma, Fidi Mukullu, Fon, Gleti, Gonzuole, G, Gua, Gulu, Gunab, Hammadi, Hbiesso, Iku, Ilankaka, Imana, Iruwa, Isaywa, Juok, Kazooba, Khakaba, Khonvum, Kibuka, Kintu, Leb, Leza, Libanza, Lituolone, Loko, Marwe, Massim Biambe, Mawu-Lisa (Leza), Mboze, Mebeli, Minepa, Moombi, Mukameiguru, Mukasa, Muluku, Mulungu, Mwambu, Nai, Nambi, Nana Buluku, Nanan-Bouclou, Nenaunir, Ng Ai, Nyaliep, Nyamb, Nyankopon, Nyasaye, Nzame, Oboto, Obumo, Odudua-Orishala, Ogun, Olokun, Olorun, Orisha Nla, Orunmila, Osanyin, Oshe, Osun, Oya, Phebele, Pokot-Suk, Ralubumbha, Rugaba, Ruhanga, Ryangombe, Sagbata, Shagpona, Shango, Sopona, Tano, Thixo, Tilo, Tokoloshi, Tsui, Tsui’goab, Umvelinqangi, Unkulunkulu, Utixo, Wak, Wamara, Wantu Su, Wele, Were, Woto, Xevioso, Yangombi, Yemonja, Ymoa, Ymoja, Yoruba, Zambi, Zanahary , Zinkibaru, Alinga, Anjea, Apunga, Arahuta, Ariki, Arohirohi, Bamapana, Banaitja, Bara, Barraiya, Biame, Bila, Boaliri, Bobbi-bobbi, Bunbulama, Bunjil, Cunnembeille, Daramulum, Dilga, Djanggawul Sisters, Eingana, Erathipa, Gidja , Gnowee, Haumia, Hine Titama, Ingridi, Julana, Julunggul, Junkgowa, Karora, Kunapipi-Kalwadi-Kadjara, Lia, Madalait, Makara, Nabudi, Palpinkalare, Papa, Rangi, Rongo, Tane, Tangaroa, Tawhiri-ma-tea, Tomituka, Tu, Ungamilia, Walo, Waramurungundi, Wati Kutjarra, Wawalag Sisters, Wuluwaid, Wuragag, Wuriupranili, Wurrunna, Yhi, Aizen-Myoo, Ajima,Dai-itoku-Myoo, Fudo-Myoo, Gozanze-Myoo, Gundari-Myoo, Hariti, Kongo-Myoo, Kujaku-Myoo, Ni-O, Agaman Nibo , Agwe, Agweta, Ah Uaynih, Aida Wedo , Atabei , Ayida , Ayizan, Azacca, Baron Samedi, Ulrich, Ellegua, Ogun, Ochosi, Chango, Itaba, Amelia, Christalline, Clairm, Clairmezin, Coatrischie, Damballah , Emanjah, Erzuli, Erzulie, Ezili, Ghede, Guabancex, Guabonito, Guamaonocon, Imanje, Karous, Laloue-diji, Legba, Loa, Loco, Maitresse Amelia , Mapiangueh, Marie-aime, Marinette, Mombu, Marassa, Nana Buruku, Oba, Obtala, Ochu, Ochumare, Oddudua, Ogoun, Olokum, Olosa, Oshun, Oya, Philomena, Sirne, The Diablesse, Itaba, Tsilah, Ursule, Vierge, Yemaya , Zaka, Abarta, Abna, Abnoba, Aine, Airetech,Akonadi, Amaethon, Ameathon, An Cailleach, Andraste, Antenociticus, Aranrhod, Arawn, Arianrod, Artio, Badb,Balor, Banbha, Becuma, Belatucadros, Belatu-Cadros, Belenus, Beli,Belimawr, Belinus, Bendigeidfran, Bile, Blathnat, Blodeuwedd, Boann, Bodus,Bormanus, Borvo, Bran, Branwen, Bres, Brigid, Brigit, Caridwen, Carpantus,Cathbadh, Cecht, Cernach, Cernunnos, Cliodna, Cocidius, Conchobar, Condatis, Cormac,Coronus,Cosunea, Coventina, Crarus,Creidhne, Creirwy, Cu Chulainn, Cu roi, Cuda, Cuill,Cyhiraeth,Dagda, Damona, Dana, Danu, D’Aulnoy,Dea Artio, Deirdre , Dewi, Dian, Diancecht, Dis Pater, Donn, Dwyn, Dylan, Dywel,Efnisien, Elatha, Epona, Eriu, Esos, Esus, Eurymedon,Fedelma, Fergus, Finn, Fodla, Goewyn, Gog, Goibhniu, Govannon , Grainne, Greine,Gwydion, Gwynn ap Nudd, Herne, Hu’Gadarn, Keltoi,Keridwen, Kernunnos,Ler, Lir, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Lludd, Llyr, Llywy, Luchta, Lug, Lugh,Lugus, Mabinogion,Mabon, Mac Da Tho, Macha, Magog, Manannan, Manawydan, Maponos, Math, Math Ap Mathonwy, Medb, Moccos,Modron, Mogons, Morrig, Morrigan, Nabon,Nantosuelta, Naoise, Nechtan, Nedoledius,Nehalennia, Nemhain, Net,Nisien, Nodens, Noisi, Nuada, Nwywre,Oengus, Ogma, Ogmios, Oisin, Pach,Partholon, Penard Dun, Pryderi, Pwyll, Rhiannon, Rosmerta, Samhain, Segidaiacus, Sirona, Sucellus, Sulis, Taliesin, Taranis, Teutates, The Horned One,The Hunt, Treveni,Tyne, Urien, Ursula of the Silver Host, Vellaunus, Vitiris, White Lady, Amaunet, Amen, Amon, Amun, Anat, Anqet, Antaios, Anubis, Anuket, Apep, Apis, Astarte, Aten, Aton, Atum, Bastet, Bat, Buto, Duamutef, Duamutef, Hapi, Har-pa-khered, Hathor, Hauhet, Heket, Horus, Huh, Imset, Isis, Kauket, Kebechsenef, Khensu, Khepri, Khnemu, Khnum, Khonsu, Kuk, Maahes, Ma’at, Mehen, Meretseger, Min, Mnewer, Mut, Naunet, Nefertem, Neith, Nekhbet, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra , Re, Renenet, Sakhmet, Satet, Seb, Seker, Sekhmet, Serapis, Serket, Set, Seth, Shai, Shu, Shu, Sia, Sobek, Sokar, Tefnut, Tem, Thoth, Acidalia, Aello, Aesculapius, Agathe, Agdistis, Ageleia, Aglauros, Agne, Agoraia, Agreia, Agreie, Agreiphontes, Agreus, Agrios, Agrotera, Aguieus, Aidoneus, Aigiokhos, Aigletes, Aigobolos, Ainia,Ainippe, Aithuia , Akesios, Akraia, Aktaios, Alalkomene, Alasiotas, Alcibie, Alcinoe, Alcippe, Alcis,Alea, Alexikakos, Aligena, Aliterios, Alkaia, Amaltheia, Ambidexter, Ambologera, Amynomene,Anaduomene, Anaea, Anax, Anaxilea, Androdameia,Andromache, Andromeda, Androphonos, Anosia, Antandre,Antania, Antheus, Anthroporraistes, Antianara, Antianeira, Antibrote, Antimache, Antimachos, Antiope,Antiopeia, Aoide, Apatouria, Aphneius, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apotropaios, Areia, Areia, Areion, Areopagite, Ares, Areto, Areximacha,Argus, Aridnus,Aristaios, Aristomache, Arkhegetes, Arktos, Arretos, Arsenothelys, Artemis, Asclepius, Asklepios, Aspheleios, Asteria, Astraeos , Athene, Auxites, Avaris, Axios, Axios Tauros,Bakcheios, Bakchos, Basileus, Basilis, Bassareus, Bauros, Boophis, Boreas , Botryophoros, Boukeros, Boulaia, Boulaios, Bremusa,Bromios, Byblis,Bythios, Caliope, Cedreatis, Celaneo, centaur, Cerberus, Charidotes, Charybdis, Chimera, Chloe, Chloris , Choreutes, Choroplekes, Chthonios, Clete, Clio, clotho,Clyemne, cockatrice, Crataeis, Custos, Cybebe, Cybele, Cyclops, Daphnaia, Daphnephoros, Deianeira, Deinomache, Delia, Delios, Delphic, Delphinios, Demeter, Dendrites, Derimacheia,Derinoe, Despoina, Dikerotes, Dimeter, Dimorphos, Dindymene, Dioktoros, Dionysos, Discordia, Dissotokos, Dithyrambos, Doris, Dryope,Echephyle,Echidna, Eiraphiotes, Ekstatophoros, Eleemon, Eleuthereus, Eleutherios, Ennosigaios, Enodia, Enodios, Enoplios, Enorches, Enualios, Eos , Epaine, Epidotes, Epikourios, Epipontia, Epitragidia, Epitumbidia, Erato, Ergane, Eribromios, Erigdoupos, Erinus, Eriobea, Eriounios, Eriphos, Eris, Eros,Euanthes, Euaster, Eubouleus, Euboulos, Euios, Eukhaitos, Eukleia, Eukles, Eumache, Eunemos, Euplois, Euros , Eurybe,Euryleia, Euterpe, Fates,Fortuna, Gaia, Gaieokhos, Galea, Gamelia, Gamelios, Gamostolos, Genetor, Genetullis, Geryon, Gethosynos, giants, Gigantophonos, Glaukopis, Gorgons, Gorgopis, Graiae, griffin, Gynaikothoinas, Gynnis, Hagisilaos, Hagnos, Haides, Harmothoe, harpy, Hegemone, Hegemonios, Hekate, Hekatos, Helios, Hellotis, Hephaistia, Hephaistos, Hera, Heraios, Herakles, Herkeios, Hermes, Heros Theos, Hersos, Hestia, Heteira, Hiksios, Hipp, Hippia, Hippios, Hippoi Athanatoi, Hippolyte, Hippolyte II, Hippomache,Hippothoe, Horkos, Hugieia, Hupatos, Hydra, Hypate, Hyperborean, Hypsipyle, Hypsistos, Iakchos, Iatros, Idaia, Invictus, Iphito,Ismenios, Ismenus,Itonia, Kabeiria, Kabeiroi, Kakia, Kallinikos, Kallipugos, Kallisti, Kappotas, Karneios, Karpophoros, Karytis, Kataibates, Katakhthonios, Kathatsios, Keladeine, Keraunos, Kerykes, Khalinitis, Khalkioikos, Kharmon, Khera, Khloe, Khlori,Khloris,Khruse, Khthonia, Khthonios, Kidaria, Kissobryos, Kissokomes, Kissos, Kitharodos, Kleidouchos, Kleoptoleme, Klymenos, Kore, Koruthalia, Korymbophoros, Kourotrophos, Kranaia, Kranaios, Krataiis, Kreousa, Kretogenes, Kriophoros, Kronides, Kronos,Kryphios, Ktesios, Kubebe, Kupris, Kuprogenes, Kurotrophos, Kuthereia, Kybele, Kydoime,Kynthia, Kyrios, Ladon, Lakinia, Lamia, Lampter, Laodoke, Laphria, Lenaios, Leukatas, Leukatas, Leukolenos, Leukophruene, Liknites, Limenia, Limnaios, Limnatis, Logios, Lokhia, Lousia, Loxias, Lukaios, Lukeios, Lyaios, Lygodesma, Lykopis, Lyseus, Lysippe, Maimaktes, Mainomenos, Majestas, Makar, Maleatas, Manikos, Mantis, Marpe, Marpesia, Medusa, Megale, Meilikhios, Melaina, Melainis, Melanaigis, Melanippe,Melete, Melousa, Melpomene, Melqart, Meses, Mimnousa, Minotaur, Mneme, Molpadia,Monogenes, Morpho, Morychos, Musagates, Musagetes, Nebrodes, Nephelegereta, Nereus,Nete, Nike, Nikephoros, Nomios, Nomius, Notos , Nyktelios, Nyktipolos, Nympheuomene, Nysios, Oiketor, Okyale, Okypous, Olumpios, Omadios, Ombrios, Orithia,Orius,Ortheia, Orthos, Ourania, Ourios, Paelemona, Paian, Pais, Palaios, Pallas, Pan Megas, Panakhais, Pandemos, Pandrosos, Pantariste, Parthenos, PAsianax, Pasiphaessa, Pater, Pater, Patroos, Pegasus, Pelagia, Penthesilea, Perikionios, Persephone, Petraios, Phanes, Phanter, Phatria, Philios, Philippis, Philomeides, Phoebe, Phoebus, Phoenix, Phoibos, Phosphoros, Phratrios, Phutalmios, Physis, Pisto, Plouton, Polemusa,Poliakhos, Polias, Polieus, Polumetis, Polydektes, Polygethes, Polymnia, Polymorphos, Polyonomos, Porne, Poseidon, Potnia Khaos, Potnia Pheron, Promakhos, Pronoia, Propulaios, Propylaia, Proserpine, Prothoe, Protogonos, Prytaneia, Psychopompos, Puronia, Puthios, Pyrgomache, Python, Rhea, Sabazios, Salpinx, satyr, Saxanus, Scyleia,Scylla, sirens, Skeptouchos, Smintheus, Sophia, Sosipolis, Soter, Soteria, Sphinx, Staphylos, Sthenias, Sthenios, Strife, Summakhia, Sykites, Syzygia, Tallaios, Taureos, Taurokeros, Taurophagos, Tauropolos, Tauropon, Tecmessa, Teisipyte, Teleios, Telepyleia,Teletarches, Terpsichore, Thalestris, Thalia, The Dioskouroi, Theos, Theritas, Thermodosa, Thraso, Thyonidas, Thyrsophoros, Tmolene, Toxaris, Toxis, Toxophile,Trevia, Tricephalus, Trieterikos, Trigonos, Trismegestos, Tritogeneia, Tropaios, Trophonius,Tumborukhos, Tyche, Typhon, Urania, Valasca, Xanthippe, Xenios, Zagreus, Zathos, Zephryos , Zeus, Zeus Katakhthonios, Zoophoros, Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin zoc, Abaangui , Ababinili , Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achiyalatopa , Acna, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adaox , Adekagagwaa , Adlet , Adlivun, Agloolik , Aguara , Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Patnar Uinicob, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah UincirDz’acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Ah Wink-ir Masa, Ahau Chamahez, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahnt Alis Pok’, Ahnt Kai’, Aholi , Ahsonnutli , Ahuic, Ahulane, Aiauh, Aipaloovik , Ajbit, Ajilee , Ajtzak, Akbaalia , Akba-atatdia , Akhlut , Akhushtal, Akna , Akycha, Alaghom Naom Tzentel, Albino Spirit animals , Alektca , Alignak, Allanque , Allowat Sakima , Alom, Alowatsakima , Amaguq , Amala , Amimitl, Amitolane, Amotken , Andaokut , Andiciopec , Anerneq , Anetlacualtiliztli, Angalkuq , Angpetu Wi, Anguta, Angwusnasomtaka , Ani Hyuntikwalaski , Animal spirits , Aningan, Aniwye , Anog Ite , Anpao, Apanuugak , Apicilnic , Apikunni , Apotamkin , Apoyan Tachi , Apozanolotl, Apu Punchau, Aqalax , Arendiwane , Arnakua’gsak , Asdiwal , Asgaya Gigagei, Asiaq , Asin , Asintmah, Atacokai , Atahensic, Aticpac Calqui Cihuatl, Atira, Atisokan , Atius Tirawa , Atl, Atlacamani, Atlacoya, Atlatonin, Atlaua, Atshen , Auilix, Aulanerk , Aumanil , Aunggaak , Aunt Nancy , Awaeh Yegendji , Awakkule , Awitelin Tsta , Awonawilona, Ayauhteotl, Azeban, Baaxpee , Bacabs, Backlum Chaam, Bagucks , Bakbakwalanooksiwae , Balam, Baldhead , Basamacha , Basket Woman , Bead Spitter , Bear , Bear Medicine Woman , Bear Woman , Beaver , Beaver Doctor , Big Heads, Big Man Eater , Big Tail , Big Twisted Flute , Bikeh hozho, Bitol, Black Hactcin , Black Tamanous , Blind Boy , Blind Man , Blood Clot Boy , Bloody Hand , Blue-Jay , Bmola , Bolontiku, Breathmaker, Buffalo , Buluc Chabtan, Burnt Belly , Burnt Face , Butterfly , Cabaguil, Cacoch, Cajolom, Cakulha, Camaxtli, Camozotz, Cannibal Grandmother , Cannibal Woman , Canotila , Capa , Caprakan, Ca-the-a, Cauac, Centeotl, Centzonuitznaua, Cetan , Chac Uayab Xoc, Chac, Chahnameed , Chakwaina Okya, Chalchihuitlicue, Chalchiuhtlatonal, Chalchiutotolin, Chalmecacihuilt, Chalmecatl, Chamer, Changing Bear Woman , Changing Woman , Chantico, Chaob, Charred Body , Chepi , Chibiabos , Chibirias, Chiccan, Chicomecoatl, Chicomexochtli, Chiconahui, Chiconahuiehecatl, Chie, Child-Born-in-Jug , Chirakan, Chulyen , Cihuacoatl, Cin-an-ev , Cinteotl, Cipactli, Cirap , Cit Chac Coh, Cit-Bolon-Tum, Citlalatonac, Citlalicue, Ciucoatl, Ciuteoteo, Cizin, Cliff ogre , Coatlicue, Cochimetl, Cocijo, Colel Cab, Colop U Uichkin, Copil, Coyolxauhqui, Coyopa, Coyote , Cripple Boy , Crow , Crow Woman , Cum hau, Cunawabi , Dagwanoenyent , Dahdahwat , Daldal , Deohako, Dhol , Diyin dine , Djien , Djigonasee , Dohkwibuhch , Dzalarhons , Dzalarhons, Eagentci , Eagle , Earth Shaman , Eeyeekalduk , Ehecatl, Ehlaumel , Eithinoha , Ekchuah, Enumclaw , Eototo, Esaugetuh Emissee , Esceheman, Eschetewuarha, Estanatlehi , Estasanatlehi , Estsanatlehi, Evaki, Evening Star, Ewah , Ewauna, Face , Faces of the Forests , False Faces , Famine , Fastachee , Fire Dogs , First Creator , First Man and First Woman, First Scolder , Flint Man , Flood , Flower Woman , Foot Stuck Child , Ga’an, Ga-gaah , Gahe, Galokwudzuwis , Gaoh, Gawaunduk, Geezhigo-Quae, Gendenwitha, Genetaska, Ghanan, Gitche Manitou, Glispa, Glooskap , Gluscabi , Gluskab , Gluskap, Godasiyo, Gohone , Great Seahouse, Greenmantle , Gucumatz, Gukumatz, Gunnodoyak, Gyhldeptis, Ha Wen Neyu , Hacauitz , Hacha’kyum, Hagondes , Hahgwehdiyu , Hamatsa , Hamedicu, Hanghepi Wi, Hantceiitehi , Haokah , Hastseoltoi, Hastshehogan , He’mask.as , Hen, Heyoka , Hiawatha , Hino, Hisakitaimisi, Hokhokw , Hotoru, Huehuecoyotl, Huehueteotl, Huitaca , Huitzilopochtli, Huixtocihuatl, Hummingbird, Hun hunahpu, Hun Pic Tok, Hunab Ku, Hunahpu Utiu, Hunahpu, Hunahpu-Gutch, Hunhau, Hurakan, Iatiku And Nautsiti, Ich-kanava , Ictinike , Idliragijenget , Idlirvirisong, Igaluk , Ignirtoq , Ikanam , Iktomi , Ilamatecuhtli, Illapa, Ilyap’a, i’noGo tied , Inti, Inua , Ioskeha , Ipalnemohuani, Isakakate, Ishigaq , Isitoq , Issitoq , Ite , Itzamn, Itzananohk`u, Itzlacoliuhque, Itzli, Itzpapalotl, Ix Chebel Yax, Ixbalanque, Ixchel, Ixchup, Ixmucane, Ixpiyacoc, Ixtab, Ixtlilton, Ixtubtin, Ixzaluoh, Iya , Iyatiku , Iztaccihuatl, Iztacmixcohuatl, Jaguar Night, Jaguar Quitze, Jogah , Kaakwha , Kabun , Kabun , Kachinas, Kadlu , Ka-Ha-Si , Ka-Ha-Si , Kaik , Kaiti , Kan, Kana’ti and Selu , Kanati, Kan-u-Uayeyab, Kan-xib-yui, Kapoonis , Katsinas, Keelut , Ketchimanetowa, Ketq Skwaye, Kianto, Kigatilik , Kilya, K’in, Kinich Ahau, Kinich Kakmo, Kishelemukong , Kisin, Kitcki Manitou, Kmukamch , Kokopelli , Ko’lok , Kukulcan, Kushapatshikan , Kutni , Kutya’I , Kwakwakalanooksiwae , Kwatee , Kwekwaxa’we , Kwikumat , Kyoi , Lagua , Land Otter People , Lawalawa , Logobola , Loha, Lone Man , Long Nose , Loon , Loon Medicine , Loon Woman , Loo-wit, Macaw Woman, Macuilxochitl, Maho Peneta, Mahucutah, Makenaima , Malesk , Malina , Malinalxochi, Malsum, Malsumis , Mam, Mama Cocha, Man in moon , Manabozho , Manetuwak , Mani’to, Manitou , Mannegishi , Manu, Masaya, Masewi , Master of Life , Master Of Winds, Matshishkapeu , Mavutsinim , Mayahuel, Medeoulin , Mekala , Menahka, Meteinuwak , Metztli, Mexitl, Michabo, Mictecacihuatl, Mictlan, Mictlantecuhtli, Mikchich , Mikumwesu , Mitnal, Mixcoatl, Mongwi Kachinum , Morning Star, Motho and Mungo , Mulac, Muut , Muyingwa , Nacon, Nagenatzani, Nagi Tanka , Nagual, Nahual, Nakaw, Nanabojo, Nanabozho , Nanabush, Nanahuatzin, Nanautzin, Nanih Waiya, Nankil’slas , Nanook , Naum, Negafook , Nerrivik , Nesaru, Nianque , Nishanu , Nohochacyum, Nokomis, Nootaikok , North Star, Nujalik , Nukatem , Nunne Chaha , Ocasta, Ockabewis, Odzihozo , Ohtas , Oklatabashih, Old Man , Olelbis, Omacatl, Omecihuatl, Ometecuhtli, Onatha , One Tail of Clear Hair , Oonawieh Unggi , Opochtli, Oshadagea, Owl Woman , Pah , Pah, Paiowa, Pakrokitat , Pana , Patecatl, Pautiwa, Paynal, Pemtemweha , Piasa , Pikvhahirak , Pinga , Pomola , Pot-tilter , Prairie Falcon , Ptehehincalasanwin , Pukkeenegak , Qaholom, Qakma, Qiqirn , Quaoar , Quetzalcoatl, Qumu , Quootis-hooi, Rabbit, Ragno, Raven, Raw Gums , Rukko, Sagamores , Sagapgia , Sanopi , Saynday , Sedna, Selu, Shakuru, Sharkura, Shilup Chito Osh, Shrimp house, Sila , Sint Holo , Sio humis, Sisiutl , Skan , Snallygaster , Sosondowah , South Star, Spider Woman , Sta-au , Stonecoats , Sun, Sungrey , Ta Tanka , Tabaldak , Taime , Taiowa , Talocan, Tans , Taqwus , Tarhuhyiawahku, Tarquiup Inua , Tate , Tawa, Tawiscara, Ta’xet , Tcisaki , Tecciztecatl, Tekkeitserktock, Tekkeitsertok , Telmekic , Teoyaomqui, Tepeu, Tepeyollotl, Teteoinnan, Tezcatlipoca, Thobadestchin, Thoume’, Thunder , Thunder Bird , Tieholtsodi, Tihtipihin , Tirawa , Tirawa Atius, Tlacolotl, Tlahuixcalpantecuhtli, Tlaloc, Tlaltecuhtli, Tlauixcalpantecuhtli, Tlazolteotl, Tohil, Tokpela , Tonantzin , Tonatiuh, To’nenile, Tonenili , Tootega , Torngasak, Torngasoak , Trickster/Transformer , True jaguar, Tsentsa, Tsichtinako, Tsohanoai Tsonoqwa , Tsul ‘Kalu , Tulugaak , Tumas , Tunkan ingan, Turquoise Boy , Twin Thunder Boys, Txamsem , Tzakol, Tzitzimime, Uazzale , Uchtsiti, Ud , Uentshukumishiteu , Ueuecoyotl, Ugly Way , Ugni , Uhepono , Uitzilopochtli, Ukat , Underwater Panthers , Unhcegila , Unipkaat , Unk, Unktomi , Untunktahe , Urcaguary, Utea , Uwashil , Vassagijik , Voltan, Wabosso , Wabun , Wachabe, Wah-Kah-Nee, Wakan , Wakanda , Wakan-Tanka, Wakinyan , Wan niomi , Wanagi , Wananikwe , Watavinewa , Water babies , Waukheon , We-gyet , Wemicus , Wendigo , Wentshukumishiteu , White Buffalo Woman, Whope , Wi , Wicahmunga , Wihmunga , Windigo, Winonah, Wisagatcak , Wisagatcak, Wishpoosh , Wiyot , Wovoka , Wuya , Xaman Ek, Xelas , Xibalba, Xilonen, Xipe Totec, Xiuhcoatl, Xiuhtecuhtli, Xiuhtecutli, Xmucane, Xochipili , Xochiquetzal, Xocotl, Xolotl, Xpiyacoc, Xpuch And Xtah, Yacatecuhtli, Yaluk, Yanauluha , Ya-o-gah , Yeba Ka, Yebaad, Yehl , Yeitso, Yiacatecuhtli, Yolkai Estsan, Yoskeha , Yum Kaax, Yuwipi , Zaramama, Zipaltonal, Zotz, Aegir, Aesir, Alfrigg, Audumbla, Aurgelmir, Balder, Berchta, Bergelmir, Bor, Bragi, Brisings, Buri, Etin, Fenris, Forseti, Frey, Freyja, Frigga, Gefion, Gerda, Gode, Gymir, Harke, Heimdall, Hel, Hermod, Hodur, Holda, Holle, Honir, Hymir, Idun, Jormungandr, Ljolsalfs, Loki, Magni, Mimir, Mistarblindi, Muspel, Nanna, Nanni, Nerthus, Njord, Norns, Odin, Perchta, Ran, Rig, Segyn, Sif, Skadi, Skirnir, Skuld, Sleipnir, Surt, Svadilfari, tanngniotr, tanngrisnr, Thiassi, Thor, Thrud, Thrudgelmir, Thrym, Thurs, Tyr, Uller, Urd, Vali, Vali, Valkyries, Vanir, Ve, Verdandi, Vidar, Wode, Ymir, Abeguwo, Abere, Adaro, Afekan, Ai Tupua’i, ‘Aiaru, Ala Muki, Alalahe, Alii Menehune, Aluluei, Aruaka, Asin, Atanea, Audjal, Aumakua, Babamik, Bakoa, Barong, Batara Kala, Buring Une, Darago, Dayang-Raca, De Ai, Dogai, Enda Semangko, Faumea, Giriputri, Goga, Haumea, Hiiaka’, Hina, Hine, Hoa-Tapu, ‘Imoa, Io, Kanaloa, Kanaloa, Kane, Kapo, Kava, Konori, Ku, Kuhuluhulumanu, Kuklikimoku, Kukoae, Ku’ula, Laka, Laulaati, Lono, Mahiuki, MakeMake, Marruni, Maru, Maui, Melu, Menehune, Moeuhane, MOO-LAU, Ndauthina, Ne Te-reere, Nevinbimbaau, Ngendei, Nobu, Oro, Ove, Paka’a, Papa, Pele, Quat, Rangi, Rati, Rati-mbati-ndua, Ratu-Mai-Mbula, Rua, Ruahatu, Saning Sri, Ta’aroa, Taaroa, Tamakaia, Tane, Tanemahuta, Tangaroa, Tawhaki, Tiki, Tinirau, Tu, Tuli, Turi-a-faumea, Uira, Ukupanipo, Ulupoka, Umboko Indra, Vanuatu, Wahini-Hal, Walutahanga, Wari-Ma-Te-Takere, Whaitiri, Whatu, Wigan, Abaangui, Aclla, Akewa, Asima Si, Atoja, Auchimalgen, Axomama, Bachu, Beru, Bochica, Boiuna, Calounger, Catequil, Cavillaca, Ceiuci, Chasca, Chie, Cocomama, Gaumansuri, Huitaca, Iae, Ilyap’a, Ina, Inti, Ituana, Jamaina , Jandira, Jarina, Jubbu-jang-sangne, Ka-ata-killa, Kilya, Kuat, Kun, Luandinha, Lupi, Mama Allpa, Mama Quilla, Mamacocha, Manco Capac, Maret-Jikky, Maretkhmakniam, Mariana, Oshossi, Pachamac, Pachamama, Perimb, Rainha Barba, Si, Supai, Toptine, Viracocha, Yemanja (Imanje), Zume

Dude, your god and his bible are nothing more than poor retellings of myths based on the gods listed above, foisted upon the masses by a man (Paul) who, IMO, was a psychologically damaged zealot.

Please be courteous and respond to omen and velkyn's post and save your "wish you were saved" nonsense for those who sadly don't know any better.

BTW and FYI - right now, I am a pissed off atheist. I can't believe in this day and age people are still arguing about whose fairy tale is more believable.

E.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 08:11:49 PM by Energized »
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2012, 08:07:18 PM »
Energized, you're my kind of pissed off atheist. I'm not pissed much any more. Guess I've been doing this too long. I miss the good old days.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2012, 08:16:29 PM »
I'm actually laughing a little now.

It just bugs me when people come to atheist message boards to preach because they like the sound of their own voice and yet ignore well thought out posts... hiding under the guise of being too busy or away from their computers because they have other things to do.

It's so disrespectful and rude.

Make a claim, back it up. It isn't rocket science.

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Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

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Offline thunderridge

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2012, 08:17:20 PM »
jbcalvert  is obviously a Ray Comfort fan.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2012, 08:31:03 PM »

I have no will or choice as to the guilt that is laid upon me in christianity.  That is to say I have no choice in the action of adam and eve. 

But you do have the choice and ability to do right or wrong ( regardless of what you consider those to be ).


Their 'sin' is forced upon me in terms that are unjust and rob me of my will to choose.   

Their sin doesn't excuse yours. No more than a rapist is excused by their own suffering of abuse.


This as a concept is fundamentally at odds with reality as to how we treat guilt, innocence, and responsibility.

No it isn't. At law, we are found guilty if we knowingly do the wrong thing. Sometimes we are legally guilty if we didn't know we were doing the wrong thing. No one tries to pretend that there aren't usually reasons for doing the wrong thing - but they don't excuse us. So why would being born with a sinful nature excuse you?


I am no more guilty of the action of my father than the action of Adam and Eve ( ignoring that they didn't really exist ). 

Of course you aren't. You're guilty of your own actions.


I am also not given a choice as to whether or not I would allow someone to be punished in my 'stead', I'm robbed again of both action and will as to whether or not I can determine my own responsibility or desire to make a difference.   

Yes you are. True, God didn't ask for your permission before asking Jesus to die for our sin. But you can certainly decide whether you wish to be included in those of us who ask Jesus to be one of the ones He died to save. Just as you can choose to face God alone and give your own account of yourself.


The 'sacrifice' of jesus is also empty rhetoric as well, the physical mutilation of flesh is of no consequence to a being of omnipotent and omniscient ability. 

I don't think crucifixion was easy - imagine undergoing that voluntarily? And thats just the physical suffering.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 08:34:46 PM by magicmiles »
Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2012, 08:45:59 PM »
I don't think crucifixion was easy - imagine undergoing that voluntarily? And thats just the physical suffering.

Tens of thousands of regular humans were crucified over the centuries. None of them had a free "get out of jail" card like you guys say jc did. So it hurt. I'm pretty sure that if there is a hell, I'll end up suffering a heck of a lot more than the kid did. If there isn't a hell, then you christians are suffering; living in fear of something that isn't there.

And the sin thing? Painting everybody's behavior in such broad strokes contributes nothing to the causes of right and wrong. Saying that sweet little old ladies who never hurt a soul (I know one. She carefully catches the flies in her house and takes them outside to set them free). But she hasn't accepted jc. As per the christians around here, she is going to hell just like Hitler presumably did. Why the insistence on equivalence?

If all your god could make was sinners, he should have at least gone to the trouble of being believable. That would have helped a lot.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2012, 08:50:55 PM »
I googled one of those Gods listed by Energized - Bor. Nothing relevant came up. So I googled "Bor God", and in the drop down list of suggestions the first is "For God so loved the world..."

You can probably see how I found that amusing.


Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Willie

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2012, 08:57:45 PM »
Bor is mentioned here: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation.html

Seems he is the father of Odin.


Offline magicmiles

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2012, 09:00:06 PM »
I don't think crucifixion was easy - imagine undergoing that voluntarily? And thats just the physical suffering.

Tens of thousands of regular humans were crucified over the centuries. None of them had a free "get out of jail" card like you guys say jc did. So it hurt. I'm pretty sure that if there is a hell, I'll end up suffering a heck of a lot more than the kid did. If there isn't a hell, then you christians are suffering; living in fear of something that isn't there.

And the sin thing? Painting everybody's behavior in such broad strokes contributes nothing to the causes of right and wrong. Saying that sweet little old ladies who never hurt a soul (I know one. She carefully catches the flies in her house and takes them outside to set them free). But she hasn't accepted jc. As per the christians around here, she is going to hell just like Hitler presumably did. Why the insistence on equivalence?

If all your god could make was sinners, he should have at least gone to the trouble of being believable. That would have helped a lot.

Nothing new here, PP. We would all prefer God ticked all our boxes, but we have to take Him as He is I'm afraid. Well, I do.

And as nice as many old ladies are, none are perfect and none can dwell with God because of it. God's justice is greater than ours.
Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2012, 09:06:42 PM »
mm, if your god didn't instill fear in you, would you still be inclined to take him as he is?

I still say god's expectation of perfection from humans he made imperfect is asking a bit much. Even from a god. It may be nothing new, but it remains idiotic.

I don't fear a god for the same reason I don't own, let alone carry, a gun. I'll not spend my whole life being afraid just so that I'm prepared for that slightly possible few seconds of my life where a gun might come in handy.

I'm no good at conjuring up ghosts just for the sake of scaring myself.
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Offline Nick

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2012, 09:10:15 PM »
I can't see the forest for all these damn trees.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2012, 09:29:59 PM »
But you do have the choice and ability to do right or wrong ( regardless of what you consider those to be ).


Actually you don't. Free will is not possible in the Christian worldview. That's why it's never mentioned in the bible. Christiands are supposed to obey god. That's why we have god mind-controlling the pharoah to make him refuse Moses. It's why there are "Commandments".

The very notion of heaven and hell makes free will an impossibility in and of itself. One cannot have free will if we are commanded to make certain choices or face punishment. That's "circumstantial" will at best.

Furthermore the idea of an all-knowing god also removes any free will since in order to know the outcome ahead of time the outcome must already be set.

Also, I'll direct you to this part that you're overlooking from the other thread.

You cannot blame this suffering on us. God created us. He made us imperfect. He made us knowing this would happen and how we would turn out. He can stop it anytime that he wants to. For that matter he could have simply made us better than he did so that these things wouldn't have happened.

Also keep in mind that god could have simply created us without the ability to do evil. It does not interfere with free will. We wold still have choice we just would not have the ability. Just as I can choose to try and fly, but I don't have the ability to do so. However god made us perfectly capable of evil, then sat back and did nothing while we committed it.

The bottomline is that, by your own admission, the buck stops with god. This is entirely his fault since we have no other choice but to be as we are. Remember, you have already admitted that god knew it would turn out like this. So we had no say in the matter of any of this. It if the fault of the god who created us with full knowledge of the consequences of such an action.

That's the thing with an omnipotent deity. Ultimately the buck always stops with him.
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