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Offline velkyn

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why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« on: February 07, 2012, 09:52:07 AM »
saw this on Pharyngula: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/02/07/how-a-christian-brain-works/

i'd put it as how a *Christian's* brain works (since I know they aren't all quite so willfully ignorant).

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 10:46:06 AM »
Something I cannot grasp or wrap my head around his how openly dishonest Christians tend to be. On second thought I can see it. When I was a Christian I wasnt dishonest, it was my honesty that opened the door for my escape. However I did rationalize the things I did that I thought werent consistant with the faith because i had the idea that I'll just be forgiven (come to find out the only thing consistant are the 'sins'). So I was able to do what I wanted to do without fear of retribution. Then I realised that I was only fooling myself.

Of course the things that I thought I'd need forgiveness for arent sins at all: lust, sex, swearing, listening to 2pac, etc...

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 11:30:09 AM »
We're contrary, but not for the purpose of being contrary. To extrapolate a desire to keep religion and government or government agencies separate to mean that we revile anything valued by any religion is taking things way too far.

We all have common grounds that bind us. Otherwise everybody would be busy killing everybody else and methinks that's hard on the evolutionary process. To insist on division because someone doesn't share identical beliefs is to go on an ego trip way bigger than the size of an imaginary god.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 12:25:59 PM »
I...wuht?


Where do they come up with this nonsense?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jbcalvert

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 12:45:46 PM »
I definitely think that Pat Robertson shouldn't be the spokesperson for Christianity.  His views are....well, they are his.

What I will say is that Christians aren't always right.  But then again, atheists aren't always right either.  What it comes down to is truth.  Does God exist?  Does God not exist?  "Foolish beliefs" are only foolish if they are not true.  So if God does exist, then it is not foolish to believe in Him.

My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?  Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.  Not a fun place according to the Bible.  Christ died to take our punishment, to pay our debts to a holy and just God.  If we repent of our sins and trust in His sacrifice, He has promised to save us! 

Offline Energized

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 12:51:27 PM »
I definitely think that Pat Robertson shouldn't be the spokesperson for Christianity.  His views are....well, they are his.

And he's watched by millions of people every day who genuinely believe he is the protestant version of the pope. If christians don't feel he should be their spokesperson, why is he still on TV with this nonsense? Moreover, how many of your Chosen Brothers and Sisters share the same belief?

Quote from: jbcalvert
What I will say is that Christians aren't always right.  But then again, atheists aren't always right either.  What it comes down to is truth.  Does God exist?  Does God not exist?  "Foolish beliefs" are only foolish if they are not true.  So if God does exist, then it is not foolish to believe in Him.

My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?  Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.  Not a fun place according to the Bible.  Christ died to take our punishment, to pay our debts to a holy and just God.  If we repent of our sins and trust in His sacrifice, He has promised to save us!

What does this preaching have to do with the topic at hand?

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Offline Traveler

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 12:54:56 PM »
Wow. What a complete and utter FAIL on Robertson's part to understand, well, anything.  :o

As for you, jbcalvert, you've left out one very important concept. When you say ...

Quote
...if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?  Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.  Not a fun place according to the Bible.  Christ died to take our punishment, to pay our debts to a holy and just God.  If we repent of our sins and trust in His sacrifice, He has promised to save us! 


...  you're assuming that your god is the one, only, and correct one. There are TONS of religions out there. Well over 30,000 varieties of christianity, various versions of judaism, muslim, wiccan, etc, etc, etc. It is, in my opinion, a massive arrogance to assume that you have a lock on truth.
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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 12:56:21 PM »
My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?  Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.

This is called Pascal's Wager, and most of us here lost count long ago of how many times we've heard it.  You would do well to research it yourself to understand why atheists do not find it persuasive.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 01:13:32 PM »
I definitely think that Pat Robertson shouldn't be the spokesperson for Christianity.  His views are....well, they are his.

What I will say is that Christians aren't always right.  But then again, atheists aren't always right either.  What it comes down to is truth.  Does God exist?  Does God not exist?  "Foolish beliefs" are only foolish if they are not true.  So if God does exist, then it is not foolish to believe in Him.

My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?  Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.  Not a fun place according to the Bible.  Christ died to take our punishment, to pay our debts to a holy and just God.  If we repent of our sins and trust in His sacrifice, He has promised to save us!

Welcome to the board first and foremost.

A) The issue you are going to have here is that the burden is on YOU to prove this existance of god.

B) What makes Pat a bad spokesperson for Christianity? Can you apply that to every Christian?

C) Is it ever NOT foolish to believe in something without ANY evidence?



Offline Azdgari

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 01:14:20 PM »
My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?  Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.


It's useful to count and identify the assumptions you make in a question like this.  Let's see...

You have assumed that if there is a god, then:
1. A god would have a holy standard.
2. This god would judge us by it.
3. The god would be male.[1]
4. The god is not a part of a potentially-conflicted pantheon of gods, and would be able to judge us on its own.
5. There are places called heaven and hell.
6. Heaven is a good place to be, while hell is a bad place to be.[2]
7. The god's judgment for or against us rests on whether we believe in its existence, with belief yielding a positive judgment and disbelief yielding a negative one.
8. The god would use these places as reward or punishment based on its judgment.
9. We know what the law is in the first place, in order to determine that we've broken it.

There may be more.  These 9 are only the assumptions you've made in the 3 sentences above.  As a non-believer, I have no reason to make any of these assumptions.  And yet, with the exception of assumption #3, they are all required in order for Pascal's Wager (as you've used it) to work at all.

What if there's a real god, who rewards disbelief and punishes belief?  Who's better off then?
 1. Whatever that means in terms of gods...and it's not a component of your reasoning, but you do make this assumption nonetheless.
 2. Not explicitly stated, but certainly implied.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 01:48:43 PM »
I definitely think that Pat Robertson shouldn't be the spokesperson for Christianity.  His views are....well, they are his.

What I will say is that Christians aren't always right.  But then again, atheists aren't always right either.  What it comes down to is truth.  Does God exist?  Does God not exist?  "Foolish beliefs" are only foolish if they are not true.  So if God does exist, then it is not foolish to believe in Him.
so they are foolish since there is no evidence of any god/supernatural at all.

From my experience of being a Christian, Robertson isn't that strange compared to other Christians.

Quote
My question to you is: if God does exist, and He judges us all by His holy standard?  Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell?  if we have broken His law (which we have), then we end up in hell.  Not a fun place according to the Bible.  Christ died to take our punishment, to pay our debts to a holy and just God.  If we repent of our sins and trust in His sacrifice, He has promised to save us!

pascal's wager.  No, we have broken no "law" since there is nothing that gave such a law or enforces such a law.  Christians can't even decide if hell is cartoon devils and flame, or being "seperate from God" or if there is a hell at all.  With all of the baseless claims,  no reason to believe in any of them or threats concerning them. 
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Offline jbcalvert

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 02:17:21 PM »
Wow, that spurred a lot of talk :)

So let me try to answer some questions/comments.
 - proving that God exists.  If you look at a wrist watch, you know it has been made by someone.  You don't have to know the person who did it to know it has been created.  You look at the universe, by the same way it had to get here someway.  Time has to be made by Something outside of time.  That would be God.
 - knowing that the God of the Bible is the One true god.  If you look at every world religion, they all say that man can do something to help earn his way to heaven/nirvana, etc....except Christianity, which says that man can do nothing to earn salvation.  Man would not make up a religion like this.
 - Christians can't decide if there is a hell or devil.  The Bible says there is, so there is.

9. We know what the law is in the first place, in order to determine that we've broken it. - the Law is the Ten Commandments.  You can know if you have broken them: have you lied?  Have you stolen?  Have you put God first always?

Burden of proof - no, the burden of proof is on you.  I have God's Word that He is real.  What do you have that He is not?

Pat Robertson as spokesperson - that is my view alone, not Christians all over.

Foolish to believe when there is no evidence - I have evidence.  Creation is evidence.  If you would have known me before Christ came to live in me, then you would have seen other evidence.  For those who say "well, I was a Christian and He didn't change me".....no offense, but you weren't really saved.

In 1 Corinthians, God says He uses foolishness to save.  If we could do something or explain something out and do anything of our own to save us, then God wouldn't be glorified.


Offline rev45

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 02:24:12 PM »
It's every troll argument rolled up in one nice little post.
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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 02:24:21 PM »
- proving that God exists.  If you look at a wrist watch, you know it has been made by someone.  You don't have to know the person who did it to know it has been created.  You look at the universe, by the same way it had to get here someway.  Time has to be made by Something outside of time.  That would be God.

The Watchmaker Analogy, too, is one that we've heard countless times before.  What are you going to go for next, the Ontological Argument?

Quote
- knowing that the God of the Bible is the One true god.  If you look at every world religion, they all say that man can do something to help earn his way to heaven/nirvana, etc....except Christianity, which says that man can do nothing to earn salvation.  Man would not make up a religion like this.

I can think of lots of reasons that man would create such a religion.

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- Christians can't decide if there is a hell or devil.  The Bible says there is, so there is.

Way to miss the point.

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9. We know what the law is in the first place, in order to determine that we've broken it. - the Law is the Ten Commandments.  You can know if you have broken them: have you lied?  Have you stolen?  Have you put God first always?

We can't know whether it's the law, though.

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Burden of proof - no, the burden of proof is on you.  I have God's Word that He is real.  What do you have that He is not?

No, the burden of proof is on you.  Your claim extends ontology.  Most atheists don't even claim that Yahweh does not exist, but even if they did, your burden of proof would still be greater for this reason.

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Pat Robertson as spokesperson - that is my view alone, not Christians all over.

I'm sure that quite a few other Christians agree with you on this one.

Quote
Foolish to believe when there is no evidence - I have evidence.  Creation is evidence.

You are assuming that the universe was created.

Quote
If you would have known me before Christ came to live in me, then you would have seen other evidence.  For those who say "well, I was a Christian and He didn't change me".....no offense, but you weren't really saved.

No True Scotsman.

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In 1 Corinthians, God says He uses foolishness to save.  If we could do something or explain something out and do anything of our own to save us, then God wouldn't be glorified.

Why does an omnimax being want or need to be glorified?  Indeed, how is it even possible for an omnimax being to want or need anything?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 02:27:42 PM »
- proving that God exists.  If you look at a wrist watch, you know it has been made by someone.  You don't have to know the person who did it to know it has been created.  You look at the universe, by the same way it had to get here someway.  Time has to be made by Something outside of time.  That would be God.

You look at a wristwatch and know that it was made because you know that people make watches. You look at the universe and falsely assume that it was created because you believe it. Then you assume that it was your god that created it, because you also believe it.
Try again.

- knowing that the God of the Bible is the One true god.  If you look at every world religion, they all say that man can do something to help earn his way to heaven/nirvana, etc....except Christianity, which says that man can do nothing to earn salvation.  Man would not make up a religion like this.

So we're all going to hell according to your religion? Are christians masochists then?
I'll leave someone else to show how christianity is no different from every other religion on Earth.

- Christians can't decide if there is a hell or devil.  The Bible says there is, so there is.

So let's kill homosexuals, kids who disobey their parents, non-believers, people who work on the Sabbath, people who dare claim that the Earth is spherical and moves, people who dare say that the sky is not as hard as cast bronze...
The Bible says that's what we should do, so that's what we should do.

If you don't see the problem with that "thinking" style... Well, I don't think I have to complete this sentence.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 02:35:21 PM »
Jb, in case you didn't realize it - your audience here does not consider any of the Christian bibles to be reliable sources of truth.  If we did, then we'd be Christians.

Since we don't, you might do well to stop premising your statements on the truth of that book's contents.  Back up a step.  You're not there yet.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 02:45:11 PM »
So let me try to answer some questions/comments.
 - proving that God exists.  If you look at a wrist watch, you know it has been made by someone.  You don't have to know the person who did it to know it has been created.  You look at the universe, by the same way it had to get here someway.  Time has to be made by Something outside of time.  That would be God.

Special pleading.  You make an effort to point out that everything has to "has been made", then you point out something that is NOT "has been made".  You don't explain why there's an odd exception, you just ask that we go along with this.

Can you understand why this argument is NOT convincing?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline velkyn

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 03:08:29 PM »
Wow, that spurred a lot of talk :)
So let me try to answer some questions/comments.
 - proving that God exists.  If you look at a wrist watch, you know it has been made by someone.  You don't have to know the person who did it to know it has been created.  You look at the universe, by the same way it had to get here someway.  Time has to be made by Something outside of time.  That would be God.
  That would be various gods, to hear their adherents claim the exact same thing.  And your god, per your very own bible, has that your god is not outside of time.  It depends on action/reaction, it interferes with humans. It’s the usual thoughtless excuse for your god, a claim that ha nothing to support its assertion.
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- knowing that the God of the Bible is the One true god.  If you look at every world religion, they all say that man can do something to help earn his way to heaven/nirvana, etc....except Christianity, which says that man can do nothing to earn salvation.  Man would not make up a religion like this.
  Unfortunately for you, your bible does say that man can earn his way into heaven.  It also contradicts this.  JB, I was a Christian and I have read the bible completely at least twice, once as a believer. 
Quote
- Christians can't decide if there is a hell or devil.  The Bible says there is, so there is.
  But Christians just as good as you, with just as much claim to the title, say that there is not, that God didn’t really mean that.  Each Christian creates his own version of Christianity, by claiming that they and only they know what God “really” meant.  The bible says that one should kill those who work on the Sabbath. Should we?  It says that raped women should be forced to marry their attackers. Should they?  It says that women should never be allowed to teach men or be allowed to speak in church. Should they? 
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9. We know what the law is in the first place, in order to determine that we've broken it. - the Law is the Ten Commandments.  You can know if you have broken them: have you lied?  Have you stolen?  Have you put God first always?
oooh, sorry, there JB but the commandments don’t stop at ten. All of them, in Exodus, Leviticus, etc, are for everyone.  Again, you should really read your bible and not depend on others to tell you what it says.  Since there is no more evidence for your god than oh, Tezcaltipoca or Enlil, there’s no reason to think that these laws are any more than human claims. Let see, JB, have you always   
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Burden of proof - no, the burden of proof is on you.  I have God's Word that He is real.  What do you have that He is not?
I have Thor’s word he’s real.  Is he? 
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Pat Robertson as spokesperson - that is my view alone, not Christians all over.
  Yep, again Christians can’t agree on much.
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Foolish to believe when there is no evidence - I have evidence.  Creation is evidence.  If you would have known me before Christ came to live in me, then you would have seen other evidence.  For those who say "well, I was a Christian and He didn't change me".....no offense, but you weren't really saved.
  Yawn, yep, again, all religions claim this and all religions fail at showing that their particular god created anything, much less exists. But, in the bible we can know for sure, JB.  Just agree to meet me at a pair of altars and show me that your god exists.  Elijah did it and God was all for it.  Surely that can work again?   But I’m sure you’ll claim that God says not to test him.  That’s wrong to since the Bible has him tested repeatedly.  Gideon, Thomas, all tests to show that God was real.  I do love when people like you claim to be the only real Christians.  That means you can also do miracles just like Jesus Christ promised you would.  So, JB, how about it?  Healings at a local veteran’s hospital should be something anyone would do if they could. I’m more than willing to be your witness. But I’m guessing you can’t do those miracles either; same with your prayers not working.     
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In 1 Corinthians, God says He uses foolishness to save.  If we could do something or explain something out and do anything of our own to save us, then God wouldn't be glorified.
Why yes the bible claims this:
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20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Hmmm.  It took the wisdom of the world to make computers, antibiotics, and tampons. Widsom that you in your lovely hypocrisy use all of the time.  Best hurry and live in a mud hut to avoid angering this god.

This god was so ignorant to claim that menstruating women were somehow “unclean” a process that he supposedly made them do.  Men used to claim that disease was God’s will and it needed to be placated, but gee, now this god can be safely ignored since it doesn’t exist at all.  Your religion is a primitive little thing, nothing special at all, even though you try and try to make it so. 
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Offline jbcalvert

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 03:10:53 PM »
OK.  So let me try to tackle a few more of these posts.

Assumption that all things were created. - The universe has order.  Cell structure, grouping of protons and electrons, mathematics, etc.  And the atheist believes that this came from nothing.  So nothing became something and made everything.  I don't know of any proof that nothing can become something and make order.  That takes intelligence....

Why there is the "odd exception" - being God - who wasn't created - For time and space to exist, something out of time and space would have had to make it exist.  Things don't just appear out of nothing. 

realizing that my audience doesn't consider the Bible to be reliable - What?!?!  This isn't the the Bible blog???  I must be in the wrong place  :)  The Bible has more accurate copies of manuscripts than any other book in history.  I don't understand how it's not reliable.  Are the history books in schools reliable?

All people are going to hell according to Christianity - no, not everyone.  Everyone has the chance to repent and trust in the sacrifice of Christ for the payment of their debt to God.  If you don't, then yes, hell will be the final destination.

Bible speaking to killing homosexuals, etc. - Everyone has broken the Laws of God.  Everyone deserves to die.  So for these things to happen is not out of place.  We deserve a righteous judgement for sinning against a Righteous Judge.  But God extends grace to us.  He wants us to repent.  That is why this death isn't extended out to every one yet.

hearing the watch maker analogy - you may have heard it many times, but I didn't disprove it.

not knowing whether the Ten Commandments is the Law - if the Supreme God of all things gives a law, is it not the law?

Why an omnimax being needs to be glorified - here is a similar example: if the President of the United States showed up at the Oval office one day and came out to a news press and said, "you know, I don't think this position is very important.  My cousin Bob, who is a professional couch potato, is going to take over for me.  Good luck with everything", took off his jacket, dropped it on the floor, and walked out the front door, what would you think?  What would the world think?  The United States would be a laughing stock and no one would take the position as seriously as they did before.  God is the Holiest, the most Righteous.  He deserves glory and honor above all like the position of president deserves glory and honor above the position of couch potato.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 03:12:55 PM »
Jb, do you know what an uncreated thing looks like?

According to your beliefs, you do not.  Because everything you've ever observed, was supposedly created.

Therefore you have no idea how to tell them apart.  Order doesn't work, because disordered things within our universe are also supposedly designed.

See the problem?  Also, re: your reply:

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realizing that my audience doesn't consider the Bible to be reliable - What?!?!  This isn't the the Bible blog???  I must be in the wrong place    The Bible has more accurate copies of manuscripts than any other book in history.  I don't understand how it's not reliable.  Are the history books in schools reliable?

You're lying.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 03:15:13 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 03:18:56 PM »
Assumption that all things were created. - The universe has order.  Cell structure, grouping of protons and electrons, mathematics, etc.  And the atheist believes that this came from nothing.  So nothing became something and made everything.  I don't know of any proof that nothing can become something and make order.  That takes intelligence....

So everything, including evil, was created by your god. Thanks for playing.

Why there is the "odd exception" - being God - who wasn't created - For time and space to exist, something out of time and space would have had to make it exist.  Things don't just appear out of nothing. 

Virtual particles and special pleading. Look them up.

All people are going to hell according to Christianity - no, not everyone.  Everyone has the chance to repent and trust in the sacrifice of Christ for the payment of their debt to God.  If you don't, then yes, hell will be the final destination.

Bible speaking to killing homosexuals, etc. - Everyone has broken the Laws of God.  Everyone deserves to die.  So for these things to happen is not out of place.  We deserve a righteous judgement for sinning against a Righteous Judge.  But God extends grace to us.  He wants us to repent.  That is why this death isn't extended out to every one yet.

You just said that there was nothing we could do to be forgiven, so you're lying in one of your posts. Try again.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Omen

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 03:22:09 PM »
What it comes down to is truth.  Does God exist?  Does God not exist?

Why aren't you concerned whether or not bob the magical evil hamster exists or not? Or how about the mighty Marflarg?

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My question to you is: if God does exist,

If the magical evil hamster exists..

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and He judges us all by His holy standard?

And the magical evil hamster judges you by the standard written on his furry hide?

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Then were will we spend eternity: heaven or hell? 

Then where will we spend existence: the hamster wheel of suffering that does not turn or the playpen of desire to fill our cheeks with dried food?

-----

If I have no reason to believe X, I have no reason to be concerned about what X may or may not do.  Nothing about what X may or may not do has anything to do with believing X to exist.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 03:25:08 PM »
this isnt going to end well...

Offline Omen

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 03:25:54 PM »
If you look at a wrist watch

Ok, I'm with you.

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you know it has been made by someone.

Ok .. so far.

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You look at the universe

Ok what now?

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by the same way it had to get here someway.

Wait.. what happened to knowing whether or not it was made by 'someone'?

Your first analogy uses something KNOWN to be created, your second analogy skips over whether or not its 'known' that the universe is created by someone.  You don't immediately see that as a distinctly false analogy and even blatantly dishonest?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Aaron123

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 03:32:24 PM »
Assumption that all things were created. - The universe has order.  Cell structure, grouping of protons and electrons, mathematics, etc.  And the atheist believes that this came from nothing.  So nothing became something and made everything.  I don't know of any proof that nothing can become something and make order.  That takes intelligence....

Arguing a strawman.

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Why there is the "odd exception" - being God - who wasn't created - For time and space to exist, something out of time and space would have had to make it exist.  Things don't just appear out of nothing. 

You're refuting your own argument.  You're saying that "Things don't just appear out of nothing", yet you also want exemption for your god.  Again, this is known as special pleading.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline velkyn

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 03:34:08 PM »
So how about it, JB?  Up for actually showing that you are a Christian just like the bible says?
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Omen

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 03:41:15 PM »
And the atheist believes that this came from nothing.

False.

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  So nothing became something and made everything.

False.

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I don't know of any proof that nothing can become something and make order.  That takes intelligence....

Argument From ignorance.

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Things don't just appear out of nothing. 

Virtual particles, wave particle collapse, radiation.

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I don't understand how it's not reliable.  Are the history books in schools reliable?

The bible is not a history book, education history books are actually reliable because they are supported by what the bible is not, evidence and research.

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Everyone has the chance to repent

False, predestination is the only logical possibility.  The christian mythological god is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, which renders your will immaterial.  It knows exactly who will and will not believe, yet creates both anyway.

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hearing the watch maker analogy - you may have heard it many times, but I didn't disprove it.

Its disproven quite easy by pointing out the assumption and false analogy.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 03:45:29 PM »
So if God does exist, then it is not foolish to believe in Him.


Actually, that's where you are wrong. It may be paradoxical. I am going to use that parable of the Intelligent Alien dream


Let us say someone has a dream that there is an adanced civilarizion(but not possessing FTL  technology) on the fouth planet around a star that is 9670 light years from earth. They propose it is real, do you "accept this" theory as reasonable? Or would you ignore it as unsupported?

Lets us say the 1200 years from now that we find out that there is actually an advanced civilization on said planet. Yes, the theory was valid, but it was...given the fact it was unsupported and untestable it was still reasonable to ignore it. Certainly it would be unreasonable to change our behavior and expend resources on a welcome center for these aliens in the present time and any proposing to do so is foolish. Wars over what people think what these aliens want ludicrous.

Your method doesn't adress the fact that people can conceive of an infinite number of things, both true and false. Most flights of fancy are false. If they cannot be substantiated, they are ignorable, to believe them foolish.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jbcalvert

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Re: why atheists should hate trees (of course it's Pat Robertson)
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 03:46:11 PM »
So this is for velkyn's reply:

God not outside of time - yes he is.  If I make an aquarium, can I not influence what goes on in it?

Bible says man can work way to heaven - I would really like to know what verse that is, because I, too, have read the Bible and it says that man gets to heaven by grace through faith, and that is a gift from God

Other Christians refute hell - so if I read a history book that says George Washington was the first president, but then I claim he wasn't, does that make me right?

More laws than the Ten Commandments - yes, under the old covenant there were more rules than the Ten Commandments, but Christ said that since He has come to make payment, that not all of those rules continue.  We have a new covenant with Christ.

Thor is real. - Really?  When did say he was real? 

Christians agreeing - no, we don't always agree...but neither do atheists

testing God and healing - No, I would not claim that we shouldn't test God, because there are places in the Bible that says we should test God in some areas of life.  No, I will not claim that God will strike down an alter for me like He did for Elijah.  No, I will not say that God will let me heal like He did Jesus, or Peter, or Paul.  I will not claim that I am the only right Christian, for there are many who know more than I do.  What I will claim, though, is that God has healed me and made me a different person than I was.  I did NOTHING to help myself, nor did anyone else, but God did it.  Why He chose me to do this for, only He knows, but I am a witness to the miracle He did in me.  That, my friend, is truth.

Wisdom of the world - The Bible doesn't say that wisdom of the world is bad.  God said that He doesn't use the wisdom of the world to save, so that man might think he saves himself.

One personal question for you, Velkyn:  Why are you so angry?  Toward me?  Toward Christianity?  Did someone in the church hurt you?  I don't want this to be a public issue, but I have no other way to contact you to ask you personally.  I would like to know where your anger stems from?  No disrespect intended.