Author Topic: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?  (Read 6939 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2012, 12:47:45 AM »
Still not sure what's meant by right wing...conservative? Anyway, I can't speak for other Christians. I certainly would never think a woman SHOULD feel grateful about having a baby in those circumstances, but maybe one day she WILL feel grateful. It's even more likely the child will feel grateful.

Yeah, conservative.  Whatever you and Santorum self-identify as.

As for the gratitude - I am talking mainly about your position, not that of other Christians.  Why wouldn't you think that she "SHOULD feel grateful" for a gift from God?  After all, it's a gift from God.  That's holy.  That's precious.  That's the ultimate standard of goodness in the universe, according to you.  So the gift - and, by extension, God's chosen means of delivering the gift (without which, the gift wouldn't have been delivered) - are 100% good.  She should feel grateful.  She should feel guilty for not feeling grateful, if she doesn't feel grateful, because that's disrespectful to the wishes of God, an affront to everything that's good and holy in the universe.

This is all only true, of course, if you're working from the idea that the pregnancy-by-rape is a gift from God.  But that's the position to which you've staked a claim.  Care to un-stake it?

I guess I'm like the Dynamic Hypnotics. I've got a soul kind of feeling.

I was serious.  How do you know?  You can only see the body.  And intuition can be (and often is) wrong.  Maybe God's got this one covered.  Maybe He wants those babies to be aborted, and so doesn't put a soul in them so that no soul-possessed being would die.

Anything's possible when we use our imaginations.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2012, 01:05:47 AM »
God is the author of life, yes, but he made it possible for His creation to multiply on their own. He even made it pleasurable ( thanks God )

This will just become a free will discussion....I think you know my views in that regard.

This is what I said. Nowhere have I said that the specific result of a rape is a 'gift' from God in the same sense that a box of chocolates is a gift. The ability to live and exist is from God. The means by which that sometimes happens can be dreadful. To further the chocolate analagy...God gave us the gift of taste buds, it doesn't mean a pallet of chocolates which falls from a truck and hits me on the head is a gift from God.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2012, 01:14:10 AM »

I was serious.  How do you know?  You can only see the body.  And intuition can be (and often is) wrong.  Maybe God's got this one covered.  Maybe He wants those babies to be aborted, and so doesn't put a soul in them so that no soul-possessed being would die.

Anything's possible when we use our imaginations.

Well, of course I can't know it by means of empirical study. I take it on faith, as a bible believing Christian, and I also have a very strong feeling that I am more than flesh and bones.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2012, 01:37:26 AM »
This is what I said. Nowhere have I said that the specific result of a rape is a 'gift' from God in the same sense that a box of chocolates is a gift. The ability to live and exist is from God. The means by which that sometimes happens can be dreadful. To further the chocolate analagy...God gave us the gift of taste buds, it doesn't mean a pallet of chocolates which falls from a truck and hits me on the head is a gift from God.

So then, you disagree with mister Santorum.  Cool.  Not very conservative of you, but cool.

Well, of course I can't know it by means of empirical study. I take it on faith, as a bible believing Christian, and I also have a very strong feeling that I am more than flesh and bones.

Where in the Bible is it written that all conceived humans are given souls at that point?  I am unaware of that verse.  As for your feelings, fine, but at no point were we talking about you having (or not having) a soul.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2012, 11:13:46 AM »
I really get the impression that you are genuinely angry at a real God...not the idea of God. Am I off base on that? I don't want to use your personal story in the wrong way, so I hope I don't offend you by asking this.

Why yes, you are off base again.  You use this sad little theist attempt to try to claim that atheists “really really” believe in your god.  It seems to be a way to convince yourself that you were right all along.

MM, you have repeatedly claimed that God has a plan.  Therefore, every single action has to be taken into account by God and only allowed if it fits into his plan, yes?  So, by your own claims, god condones, and evidently needs rapists for his plan to work. 

It’s also cute to see Christians ask for help finding things in their supposed holy book.  Funny how ignorant so many of you are in it.  Really, do any of you actually bother reading it?  It seems not with your willful ignorance in full swing for that.

and love to see you excusing rapists here
Quote
I do think, though, that there is a much finer line than we probably think between sex offenders and non sex-offenders ( I use the term in its modern vernacular ). I'm sure you'll agree that our sex urge as men is very powerful. Unchecked, atrocities occur. I know many sex offenders look back with horor and see a slow but gradual removal of the "checks" to the point that they do something which they'd have never thought possible. It's a terrifying thought.
  poor things, it’s not their fault, it’s the removal of “checks”.  What are these “checks”, MM?

You try to repeatly excuse the comments of your fellow Christians.  What if Santorum wouldn’t take back what he said?  He’s had the chance and he’s not done so.  It seems your revisionism on what he “really meant” fails in this case.  Concern for the mother would entail allowing the mother to do what she felt best.  Not forcing her to deal with a reminder of the violence done against her for months and years.  And please do make an argument for forcing women to have children.  I’ll be happy to address that nonsense too.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2012, 04:59:24 PM »
I really get the impression that you are genuinely angry at a real God...not the idea of God.

No, mm.  God isn't real.  All of that stuff was said for you in hopes that you would see how awful it is for YOU to believe it.  I know that my mothers stroke was a condition she suffered from naturally when a blood clot formed in her brain.  I know her hatred of men was a natural circumstance of that stroke.  I know her paralysis is a natural condition of her stroke.  Not for one second did I think that her suffering and my family's suffering was good for the universe. I am unhappy about how awful my childhood was, but that is no reason to not believe in God.  I do not believe in God because there is no evidence to support the notion that it exists. 

I am angry at the idea of God.  I do think it's poison for the world.  I am angry at believers who say that in some way what happened to her was for the betterment of the universe.  That makes me angry, yes.  It makes you a worse person to believe in God, not better. 

I've never been angry with any fictional characters that I know of. 

Am I off base on that?

Yes. 

I don't want to use your personal story in the wrong way, so I hope I don't offend you by asking this.

Like I said; I told it that way so you could see how terrible it was to think the way you do.  If you honestly believe God is real, the very notion that you worship Him disgusts me.  You simply can't do it without shrugging off all the horrible, terrible things that happen in our world.  I could see you believing and hating... but loving God?  The thought is repulsive. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2012, 05:14:03 PM »
Thanks for responding Jeff.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2012, 05:16:37 PM »
Any woman who does not want to be pregnant should be able to get an abortion under clean, medically safe, legal conditions. No further discussion needed.

Incidentally, do the "raped women should have the baby" contingent think that there should be any financial assistance, health care, day care, etc provided? Or is the lady supposed to deal with this gift from god all on her own?  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2012, 05:43:30 PM »

Why yes, you are off base again.  You use this sad little theist attempt to try to claim that atheists “really really” believe in your god.  It seems to be a way to convince yourself that you were right all along.

Please read Jeff's response for an example of how to respond to somebody forcefully AND politely. The question wasn't even asked of you.


MM, you have repeatedly claimed that God has a plan.  Therefore, every single action has to be taken into account by God and only allowed if it fits into his plan, yes?  So, by your own claims, god condones, and evidently needs rapists for his plan to work. 

You can't understand how free will and God being in control can co-exist. I can.


It’s also cute to see Christians ask for help finding things in their supposed holy book.  Funny how ignorant so many of you are in it.  Really, do any of you actually bother reading it?  It seems not with your willful ignorance in full swing for that.

You sure like to twist things. Of course I read the bible. I've never memorised the passages in the OT which discuss rape - have you?  The poster clearly had a verse in mind, I asked him to post it.


and love to see you excusing rapists here
Quote
I do think, though, that there is a much finer line than we probably think between sex offenders and non sex-offenders ( I use the term in its modern vernacular ). I'm sure you'll agree that our sex urge as men is very powerful. Unchecked, atrocities occur. I know many sex offenders look back with horor and see a slow but gradual removal of the "checks" to the point that they do something which they'd have never thought possible. It's a terrifying thought.
  poor things, it’s not their fault, it’s the removal of “checks”.  What are these “checks”, MM? 

I invite somebody other than Velkyn to read what I posted and give their opinion on whether I was 'excusing rapists". 

To answer your question about 'checks', I know that many sex offenders have said that their crime was a result of a gradual warping of their mind and attitude to women, often starting with soft porn, progressing to hard porn  and to a chemical addition that is harder and harder to satisfy. I guess much the same way as a drug dealer.


You try to repeatly excuse the comments of your fellow Christians.  What if Santorum wouldn’t take back what he said?  He’s had the chance and he’s not done so.  It seems your revisionism on what he “really meant” fails in this case.  Concern for the mother would entail allowing the mother to do what she felt best.  Not forcing her to deal with a reminder of the violence done against her for months and years.  And please do make an argument for forcing women to have children.  I’ll be happy to address that nonsense too.

I didn't try to change what the Guy meant at all and I agree with most of what he said in the article that was posted. I speculated that perhaps he's think twice about saying "horrible gift", but I really don't know. And I'm not going to debate abortion with you.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2012, 06:05:11 PM »
Does the rapist dad get visitation rights? Can he argue for custody?

What a nightmare-- it is hard to imagine something worse than being physically and emotionally connected to the person who assaulted you for the rest of your life....

I know there are women who can handle that. There are hundreds of women and girls in central Africa who were raped during the civil war there. Some became pregnant and most have kept and raised the children, with the support of their communities. But a woman who does not want to deal with that should never have to. :'(
Incidentally, I hope that everyone who thinks that raped women should have the children is sending generous donations to the health organizations helping women and kids in Africa. (And not to the religious organizatons that deny women birth control.)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2012, 07:34:32 PM »
^^^^ he has yet to answer for the scripture that says to pay the father 50 silver and to marry the daughter because she is "damaged" goods. How do religous people dismiss scripture as such as it is? It is the word of God after all,how did theists change the writings so the rapists no longer has to marry the "damaged" daughter? The word of God has not changed,why has the concept of what he wants changed? MM why are daughters,wives and women in genteral not treated as scripture instructed?

 Well changed for Christian sects anyways,Muslums seem to adhere more to the commands of their God and still treat women as property
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2012, 07:47:56 PM »
No, rapists are not angels doing God's work. Rapists are men (usually) who are unable or unwilling to control their sexual compulsion or need to harm women. Which is a terriblr, terrible tragedy.

If a child results from this, there is of course potential for the child to be a huge blessing for everyone. I'm no psychologist - I have no idea what sort of difficulties there are in a mother bonding with a child that was born from a rape. But I'm sure its possible, because I believe love is more powerful than hate.
here

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm

in case its NOT clear here is the verse

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Deuteronomy%2022.28-29

I don't see how that verse can be seen as condoning rape. It's clearly cited as a violation. And I just don't know enough about the culture to comment on whether the cosequence for the act was as bad, comparitively, as a prison sentence today.
The verse clearly  shows that the penalty was payed to the father for damaging his property(his daughter in this case) So the rape victim holds no interest to God,just that the father be payed for his damaged goods,like it was a broken donkey cart. Why has this now changed from 50 silver pieces to a lengthy prison sentence? Why do women have rights,why did men change to give them rights,why has the world evovled to see women as equals? it is certianly NOWHERE in scripture,your God has no interest in the freedoms of women....if he does and it says so in any form of the bible anywhere SHOW ME!!
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2012, 07:51:08 PM »
I invite somebody other than Velkyn to read what I posted and give their opinion on whether I was 'excusing rapists". 
I’ve read what you wrote and I do not think you are excusing rapists.
But, You also said this:
Well, I could argue that point but I'm quite sure this forum doesn't need an abortion discussion.
We know abortion was exactly the reason Santorum said it, right?  It was never about rapists.  The same old thing MM, prochoice folks are absolutely convinced the women must have the right to make the horribly excruciating decision that only she can make, and prolife folks think if she chooses abortion - it is murder.  It only ever was about abortion.

But again, you seem perhaps open minded enough, after reading what Velkyn
and nogodsforme have written – hmmm, if you hang around long enough...............your views about god ....
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2012, 08:11:30 PM »
No, rapists are not angels doing God's work. Rapists are men (usually) who are unable or unwilling to control their sexual compulsion or need to harm women. Which is a terriblr, terrible tragedy.

If a child results from this, there is of course potential for the child to be a huge blessing for everyone. I'm no psychologist - I have no idea what sort of difficulties there are in a mother bonding with a child that was born from a rape. But I'm sure its possible, because I believe love is more powerful than hate.
here

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm

in case its NOT clear here is the verse

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Deuteronomy%2022.28-29

I don't see how that verse can be seen as condoning rape. It's clearly cited as a violation. And I just don't know enough about the culture to comment on whether the cosequence for the act was as bad, comparitively, as a prison sentence today.
The verse clearly  shows that the penalty was payed to the father for damaging his property(his daughter in this case) So the rape victim holds no interest to God,just that the father be payed for his damaged goods,like it was a broken donkey cart. Why has this now changed from 50 silver pieces to a lengthy prison sentence? Why do women have rights,why did men change to give them rights,why has the world evovled to see women as equals? it is certianly NOWHERE in scripture,your God has no interest in the freedoms of women....if he does and it says so in any form of the bible anywhere SHOW ME!!

I think the key is cultural. From the limited knowledge I have of the Jewish culture and society God was giving these laws to, a daughter was extremely important to a father in terms of a dowry when she got married. A daughter who had been violated would probably not get married and that could be a significant disadvantage to the father. It's quite clear that daughters were seen as possessions in that sort of context. And yes, that idea is horrible to us in our culture. I don't think you can say God didn't care about the victim of rape unless you can know what her plight might be if she hadn't been married.  To me, the key thing is that the rape was seen as a bad thing which shouldn't happen. It wasn't being condoned. Perhaps you'd like to do some reading on the culture of the day? I don't have the time, and I don't need to be convinced that God is good.

As for what has changed today, thats easy: Jesus. Jesus was the fulfillment of God's plan to rescue humanity from its sin and rebellion. In Jesus we have grace, an undeserved offer of forgiveness. Jesus demonstrated grace many times, in one specific example he rescued an adultress who was in danger of being stoned. Jesus tells husbanbds to love theri wives as He has loved. That means sacrifice, putting her first.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2012, 08:17:14 PM »
MM scripture is SCRIPTURE,Jesus had no interest in womens rights,God has no interest either.....the 50 silver was to re-imburse the father for his damaged goods.

 Scripture has not changed,why has your view of women? they are STILL property,and if you can show me clearly in scripture where I am wrong I CAN change my mind
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2012, 08:59:47 PM »
Thats right, scripture is scripture, it's all from God. God gave certain laws to various people thousands of years ago, and I believe they served a purpose. God also uses scripture to tell us of Jesus, who quite clearly loved women as well as men and children for that matter. He loved all. He stayed with the outcasts of society.

Goodness, and Christians are accused of cherry picking scripture...
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2012, 09:04:58 PM »
So the Ten Commandments were laws given to other people.  Not today's people.  Gotcha.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2012, 09:14:59 PM »
So the Ten Commandments were laws given to other people.  Not today's people.  Gotcha.
Good, then we can get them out of our court rooms and off buildings.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline jetson

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2012, 09:19:52 PM »
Thats right, scripture is scripture, it's all from God. God gave certain laws to various people thousands of years ago, and I believe they served a purpose. God also uses scripture to tell us of Jesus, who quite clearly loved women as well as men and children for that matter. He loved all. He stayed with the outcasts of society.

Goodness, and Christians are accused of cherry picking scripture...

And it will go on and on and on, for how many more centuries?  Scripture say's this, God said that, Jesus loved us all, the end is nigh...

When you take the completely unsupportable position that the character in the OT is actually real, you leave yourself no option but to make up whatever you have to make up, in order to keep the story alive.  All believers do it, we call it SPAG (self projection as god).  It is the almost sad, but easily demonstrable point that each Christian gets to create God in whatever image suits them.  Period.

That's why we now have 38,000 sects of Christianity - you know, that Christianity that God wanted us all to have, and so sent his boy Jesus down to die for it all.  Go Jesus!

Anyway, scripture is one of the best ways to get to atheism, so I suppose I should embrace it more than I do.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2012, 09:57:40 PM »
So the Ten Commandments were laws given to other people.  Not today's people.  Gotcha.

Are the ten commandments culturally relevant today? I'd think so, most of them. They seem to have been intended for all time.

Many of the levitican laws on the other hand do not apply today and its reasonable to deduce that they were meant to apply only to a certain culture at a certain time.

Makes sense to me.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2012, 10:01:22 PM »

That's why we now have 38,000 sects of Christianity - you know, that Christianity that God wanted us all to have, and so sent his boy Jesus down to die for it all.  Go Jesus!

What do you mean by a sect? Are baptists one sect, lutherans another?

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Offline Lorax

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2012, 10:02:01 PM »
Do you suppose it's possible that objective moral values can change over time?

I rather think they do.

It seems to me that as society progresses the bar get's higher.

Veganism for instance, may become a standard moral virtue in 100 years considering it's efficiency (you can grow grain once and feed people, rather than growing grain to feed cows to feed people) But long ago veganism would have been tantamount to insanity when you live on the land where most plants will make you sick but all furry animals can be caught cooked and eaten.

Slavery is unimaginable now, but pet ownership is considered virtuous. Is it possible that we may one day progress so much that we begin to recognize the intrinsic canine rights of German Shepherds? I think it might, but that day is not today, and insisting that we aught to begin now will only result in a lot of unadopted pets and a distraction away from more important issues like aids in Africa.

What about War? Could the virtue of violence be in flux, (not our opinion of what is virtuous but the actual reality of what represents the greatest good for mankind?)

I am by no means prepared to defend my answer. but I like thinking about it.

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2012, 10:03:00 PM »
So the Ten Commandments were laws given to other people.  Not today's people.  Gotcha.

Are the ten commandments culturally relevant today? I'd think so, most of them. They seem to have been intended for all time.

Many of the levitican laws on the other hand do not apply today and its reasonable to deduce that they were meant to apply only to a certain culture at a certain time.

Makes sense to me.

So everything in the perfect word of God (the Bible) is 100% just and 100% true... except for everything that we flawed humans concluded isn't.
And you don't see a problem with that?
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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2012, 10:03:57 PM »
Do you suppose it's possible that objective moral values can change over time?

I rather think they do.
<snip>

Only if you can somehow explain how objective morality is subjective.
Go ahead. Try it.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2012, 10:04:15 PM »

That's why we now have 38,000 sects of Christianity - you know, that Christianity that God wanted us all to have, and so sent his boy Jesus down to die for it all.  Go Jesus!

What do you mean by a sect? Are baptists one sect, lutherans another?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2012, 10:56:47 PM »
Are the ten commandments culturally relevant today? I'd think so, most of them. They seem to have been intended for all time.

Anything can be made relevant if it's focused on.  Let's take a look at these, though...

1. "I am the lord thy God, who brought you out of the lands of Egypt.  You shall have no other gods before me"
...wait, we were brought out of the lands of Egypt?  No, he's talking exclusively to the Hebrews here.  And the content of the commandment is only relevant to Christian exclusivism.  0/1 points.

2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments."
Not sure what's relevant here.  Are we to stop drawing things?  I realize it was meant to forbid sculpted/graven idols, but doesn't that mean it's not so relevant to today's culture, as written?  Sure does.  Plus, it's got that "your children are guilty for your crimes" bit in it.  Not relevant to our culture.  0/2 points.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."
I interpret this to mean "don't swear on God's name trivially or falsely".  Relevant, to be sure.  1/3 points.

4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."
As the absolute prohibition it's written as, this is not relevant to our culture.  It's relevant to the culture of some modern Jews, who have devised all manner of interesting means to keep alive and well despite following this law.  But people work Sundays all the time.  And we expect it of them.  And making food is work.  Technically, driving to church is work.  Heck, Jesus supposedly threw this one out himself!  No points here.  1/4 points.

5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
Even if they're the extremist Muslim ones who've just decided to engage in honor-killing?  Your days aren't likely to be "long upon the land" if you do.  And the parents who don't know a thing about parenting, and condition their kids to be socially and personally stilted?  Ones that molest their children?  This works more as a general guideline than a commandment.  Still, it's usually a good guideline.  Half points for this one.  1.5/5 points.

6. "Thou shalt not murder"
This one is redundant, as murder is defined as wrongful or illegal killing in the first place.  Somehow people manage to ignore that one anyway, probably by justifying the killing in their minds.  All it does is assert that people should follow their society's laws about killing.  So, by this divine standard, abortion absolutely cannot be murder, since it is legal.  And in areas without any laws in force, killing anyone is fair game, to the Lord...according to this law.  Half points.  2/6 points.

7. “You shall not commit adultery."
In the sense of not cheating on your partner?  Sure.  I'll take that one.  3/7 points.

8. "You shall not steal."
Ditto.  4/8 points.

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
In today's urban culture, neighbours are rarely even acquaintances.  Especially in apartment buildings.  It's more important not to lie to people you actually interact with, most of whom are unlikely to be neighbours.  That probably wasn't true back in the Old Testament days, and this rule's relevance hasn't survived the change in how people live.  4/9 points.

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”
Directly treats humans as property.  That went out of style ages ago in most civilized places on Earth.  Abhorrent.  No points for this one.  4/10 points.

The Ten Commandments appear to be about 40% relevant to today's culture.  Intended for all time?  Maybe, but not by someone who knew anything about what "all time" was going to look like.  More likely "intended for all time" by men, with their own cultural blinders on.  Happens all the time.

Many of the levitican laws on the other hand do not apply today and its reasonable to deduce that they were meant to apply only to a certain culture at a certain time.

That's the easy way out, to be sure.  Taking the Bible seriously and as a whole is a serious undertaking, and not one that's relevant to today's culture.

Makes sense to me.

Of course it does.  You designed your standard that way.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2012, 10:59:40 PM »
Do you suppose it's possible that objective moral values can change over time?

Objective physical reality changes over time.  So sure, objective things can objectively change over time.

I rather think they do.

It seems to me that as society progresses the bar get's higher.

Veganism for instance, may become a standard moral virtue in 100 years considering it's efficiency (you can grow grain once and feed people, rather than growing grain to feed cows to feed people) But long ago veganism would have been tantamount to insanity when you live on the land where most plants will make you sick but all furry animals can be caught cooked and eaten.

Slavery is unimaginable now, but pet ownership is considered virtuous. Is it possible that we may one day progress so much that we begin to recognize the intrinsic canine rights of German Shepherds? I think it might, but that day is not today, and insisting that we aught to begin now will only result in a lot of unadopted pets and a distraction away from more important issues like aids in Africa.

What about War? Could the virtue of violence be in flux, (not our opinion of what is virtuous but the actual reality of what represents the greatest good for mankind?)

I am by no means prepared to defend my answer. but I like thinking about it.

You're describing how our morality changes over time.  Do you consider our morality to be objective?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2012, 11:12:06 PM »
So the Ten Commandments were laws given to other people.  Not today's people.  Gotcha.

Are the ten commandments culturally relevant today? I'd think so, most of them. They seem to have been intended for all time.

Many of the levitican laws on the other hand do not apply today and its reasonable to deduce that they were meant to apply only to a certain culture at a certain time.

Makes sense to me.

So everything in the perfect word of God (the Bible) is 100% just and 100% true... except for everything that we flawed humans concluded isn't.
And you don't see a problem with that?

I didn't say that any aspect of the bible is less than 100% true and just.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Rapists doing god's work according to Santorum?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2012, 11:15:04 PM »

That's why we now have 38,000 sects of Christianity - you know, that Christianity that God wanted us all to have, and so sent his boy Jesus down to die for it all.  Go Jesus!

What do you mean by a sect? Are baptists one sect, lutherans another?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

So refer to them as denominations...
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.