Author Topic: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists  (Read 11096 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3717
  • Darwins +244/-85
  • Gender: Male
    • Christian comics
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2012, 03:00:23 AM »
Claim to be Christian and deny that Jesus Christ was God and died for our sins? Yeah, whatever mate.

Why not? According to the Bible, every Christian denies Christ. That is the very basis of Christianity. Whether Christ actually existed or not is another story.


With my beliefs, I can separate them from fantasy, because I can point to objective evidence that shows they are real and make logical arguments for them.

As can Christian apologists. They can point to it, and it is scorned - I know this. But its wrong to say there is no evidence for the Christian God, the best you can say is that you flat out reject the evidence.

I don't want to link in apologist websites here - it's not what I'm about. Besides you know the points they make.

As I said, I'm happy with my analogy. I've made my point. I haven't convinced you..mercy me.

Yes, you have made your point quite clear.

Your point is that you believe that you are unquestionably right and above the need for evidence, and that anyone who disagrees with your opinion of reality is automatically wrong, despite any proof they might have to the contrary.

I can't imagine why that wasn't convincing.

What I have said is that, beyond the  apologist-style argument and evidence which DOES exist, I have an unassailable assurance in what I believe which could only be a gift of God.

Let me be clear that I don't think any atheist is wrong for questioning and not believing something which doesn't add up to them. That's only natural.

You have 2 posts that say you have evidence. Since you obviously are enlightened and are trying to “inform” us, please post us this evidence you claim to have. Failure to do so, could actually get you banned if you keep insisting you have evidence without showing it.

You are making the claim, and I’m demanding you show it before you make another post anywhere else.

OK. Some links:

http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/category/apologetics/scientific_apologetics/

http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/category/apologetics/historical_apologetics/

and this is just a really good essay:

http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/index.html
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17023
  • Darwins +334/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2012, 11:00:12 AM »
Presumably there was some basis upon which you were sure about Christianity? I'd be interested to know what that was if you care to share.
I trusted people. I mistakenly beleived that they told the truth since they had before.  From my observations, that is the only reason that theists believe what they do. 
Quote
If a liar is somebody who has told lies, then we are all liars. I'm sure you won't claim never to have told them. Point is, I'm sure you try not to. So do I. Why do you have trouble with forgiveness?

love this.  Absolutely hilarious, when you have to declare that "gee, since I'm alive I simply *must* be a liar."  Sorry, dear, but just because you are a liar doesn't mean everyone is.  I would have no problem lying if it would save someone's life, but just casualy for something as petty as on a forum like this?  Nope, I respect myself and others too much to do that.  Have I lied when I was too immature to know better, yep.  But here and now, I am not a liar and that's the context we're speaking in, not your desperate attempt to excuse your actions.

And forgiveness is only given to those who are actually sorry.  You intentionally lied here.  You were caught but you didn't think you'd be because of your ignorance of how computer networks work.   I'm not as evidently as stupid as your god is made out to be, accepting apologies when I know you'll lie again and lie intentionally.  The bible even addresses how your god really hates lies and liars, even those that are supposedly told *for* him. 

Evidence is how we determine truth.  There is no evidence at all for the claims made in your bible, and thus the religion is full of false claims too.  Every religion claims that it's true, but of course can't prove it.  If there were one religon that could produce evidence for its god and evidence for the miracles, etc, wow, how many converts it would get.  But religion depends on people trusting other people, and the human desire to be "right" and "special".  Your warm fuzzy feeling is claimed by other theists. Does that make their gods and religions the true ones?  What make yours any different than theirs?

oh my, and those links.  ROFL.  I love the declartion f the "law of biogenesis".  hmmm, I'm not familiar with that "law" at all. Golly, something from Louis Pasteur!  SThe usual creationist garbage of running back to superseded science to attack it.  Funny how that always happens since creationists can't actually address contemporary science. Oh and here we go eith another lie "There is no evidence of transitional forms (missing links)."  Poor things.  Nice ot see that Dr. Phil didn't actually get a doctorate in actual science, but only from a diploma mill.  Gee, how could I doubt him!   ;D

EDIit: at the one link has a creationist trying to defend Behe and his irredoucible complexity.  A quote from it is
Quote
Behe’s fundamental principle is that “scientists should follow the physical evidence wherever it leads, with no artificial restrictions.” Science has come as far as it has because scientists of the past were willing to describe the universe as it really is, rather than as the prejudices current in their times would have preferred it to be. The question is whether today’s scientists have lost their nerve.
It's a lovely demonstration of how yet one more creatonist ignores contempoary science, the science that shows Behe to be totally wrong, and then tries to claim that Behe is some saint for ignoring science whilst claiming that other scientists do something they do not.  Behe's restriction is that he thinks the bible is true and is desperate to make reality fit that delusion.  He ignores anything that shows he's wrong and is one more creationist who has yet to produce evidences for his nonsense.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 11:13:32 AM by velkyn »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline albeto

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1182
  • Darwins +219/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2012, 11:23:28 AM »

well hot damn, that church had better have a more credible piece of evidence than  feeling warm and fuzzy inside after reading a story about Jesus.

It better? Or what? I'm not trying to be snide albeto, but thats a curious thing to say. Do you just mean in the sense that people won't believe it?

This comment wasn't made as a threat ("it had better, or else!").   Your belief is increasingly hostile to reality and more and more people know it.  It's not just incompatible, it's actually hostile.  It's offensive to the kinds of virtues we as societies have evolved.  Because of this, it's loosing relevance in our culture.  If you want to explain how it is relevant, if you want to defend it as a worthy belief system, if you want to support the idea that there really was a Jesus of Nazareth and he really was the corporeal god of the bible, and he really did die for our "sins" and was resurrected for our sake, you have to provide more than "I believe so" if you want people to take your argument seriously.  This entire thread (and others you participate in) is made of people who are taking your argument seriously - very seriously.  They (we) want to give you the respect you deserve as a person by explaining just why the belief you peddle is not only unrealistic, but it cannot be true by any measure of standard.  People here are taking the time out of their work day and social time to point out to you the bits and pieces of the argument you've been conditioned to ignore.   The reason your belief had better have more to it than a warm, fuzzy feeling accompanying story time is because this is the one life you get.  This isn't a dress rehearsal.  It would be a real shame to have lived your life half-way in hopes of a fantasy that has no probable basis.   Carpe diem, man, seize the day!

(Ever seen the movie Harold and Maude?  I recommend that for you.  It's a fabulous movie about fear of life and living life.  Not for kids, imo)

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2791
  • Darwins +80/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #148 on: February 07, 2012, 11:27:26 AM »
http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/category/apologetics/scientific_apologetics/

Quote
The creation model is the view that God created the universe without using evolution

Actually, some creationists do accept evolution.

Quote
Modern science was started by men who believed in the existence of the God of the Bible. Galileo, Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, and Blaise Pascal are just a few who fit into this category.3 Their belief in God’s existence formed the foundation for modern science. They believed that a reasonable God created the universe in a reasonable way, so that through reason man could find out about the universe in which he lives.4 In other words, the universe makes sense only because God designed it to make sense. Today, however, atheistic evolutionists have rejected this base for modern science.5 They have rejected the existence of a reasonable God. But the question that they must face is this: “Without a reasonable God, can a person really expect the universe to make sense?”

Appeal to tradition.  Evolution has nothing to do the origin of the universe.  What is a "reasonable" god? (as opposed to an unreasonable god?)  What is the difference between a "reasonable" universe and a "unreasonable" universe?

Quote
The evolution model is the view that life spontaneously evolved from non-life without intelligent intervention

Incorrect.  Evolution is about how life develops.  They're thinking about abiogenesis (are they even aware that such a term exists?).


Quote
The evolution model dominated modern science after 1860.7 Charles Darwin published his book The Origin of Species around that time.8 Darwin proposed a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the universe, first life, and new life forms.9 He taught that nature can be explained without appealing to a supernatural origin. Darwin’s proposal quickly became the predominant “scientific” view.

Again; evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the universe, life, etc.  It's about the development of life.  Geez.


With so much fail in just the introduction paragraph, I can tell that the rest of the material isn't worth the bother.

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2791
  • Darwins +80/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #149 on: February 07, 2012, 11:44:00 AM »
http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/category/apologetics/historical_apologetics/
Quote
The deity of Christ is hard to accept for many people. For one to admit that Jesus is God in the flesh is to admit that he owes Him complete allegiance. Recognition of Jesus’ Godhood calls for the abandonment of one’s autonomy. Therefore, many people refuse to worship Jesus as God and consider Him to be merely a great human teacher.

To whom is this comment directed at?  Atheists?  If so, we're already off to a poor start.  The non-belief in Jesus has nothing to do with with "allegiance" or "autonomy".  It simply has to do with lack of evidence.  If this comment is directed at people of other religious beliefs, then it also fails.  Their non-belief in Jesus is due to different religion held in place.


Quote
It is interesting that Hick admits that the New Testament, quotes Jesus as claiming to be God. Second, he acknowledges that the deity of Christ was being taught within a few decades of Christ’s death (which is what the creeds prove). And, third, Hick recognizes that the deity of Christ was completely established as church doctrine by the end of the first century AD.

There is absolutely nothing "interesting" about those points.

Quote
All the available evidence points to the fact that Christ did claim to be God. The eyewitnesses who heard these claims died horrible deaths refusing to deny their validity. No liberal scholar has ever proposed an adequate explanation as to how a legend that Jesus claimed to be God could develop while the original apostles (those who personally knew Christ) were still alive and leading the new church. Legends take centuries to develop into dogma.3 Any attempted origination of legends cannot get started while honest eyewitnesses are still alive (especially if these honest eyewitnesses hold positions of authority in the church)

We have claims of eyewitnesses, not actual accounts of eyewitnesses.

The rest of the page is little more than the long-de-bunked liar/lunatic/lord argument.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15093
  • Darwins +1135/-38
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2012, 12:25:12 PM »
OK. Some links:

http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/category/apologetics/scientific_apologetics/

This is sad.  A man received a PhD for this. He tries to refute evolution but has only the vaguest idea of what it is.  He apparently has no background in biology or science.  He should ask for his money back.  He got screwed on his education.

http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/category/apologetics/historical_apologetics/

This one is sad too because the same guy from the first link tries to certify jesus H as "not insane".  Yet, he does not appear to be qualified to make that diagnosis (having no apparent background in psychology) and resorts to childish propositions such as:
Quote
However, insane people make lousy teachers. The teachings of Christ are not the teachings of a mad man. They are the greatest teachings ever taught by a man, and this man claimed to be God incarnate.

The poor bastard cannot tell the difference between his opinion (which he doesn't even bother to back up with evidence) and facts.  Sad.  His instructors did him a disservice.  This is not even high school level work. This is Dick and Jane with bigger words.

and this is just a really good essay:

http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/index.html

that is an index to a bunch of essays.  Which one did you mean?


It is disgraceful that he gets to use the letters "DR" in front of his name.  It is a slap in the face to actual PhDs.  If all PhDs had such a low bar, we would be living in caves without plumbing, attaching leaches to our sick.

btw, here is "Dr" Phil:
  Looks like a meathead jock, doesn't he?       
Kind of like Puddy, from Seinfeld or one of the meatheads from Jersey Shore
His background:
http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/about-ibd/our-staff/
» Ph.D. in Philosophy of Religion degree from Greenwich University
» Master of Arts in Religion degree from Liberty University
» Bachelor of Theology Degree from Columbia Evangelical Seminary.

No science. No biology. No psychology. No nothin'.  Columbia evangelical isn't even accredited.  So why the fuck should anyone care about his stupid opinion on evolution or jesus' mental state?  He is completely unqualified to offer an opinion.  Hey, let's ask a cocktail waitress her opinion of relativity, shall we?  Why the hell not?  If this dingus' opinions on science are worthy of consideration, surely a cocktail waitress utterly unschooled in physics should be enlightening.

Jesus christ on a stick, Miles.  You obviously have some kind of mental illness or mental deficit if you think any of this shit is evidence of anything other than the fact that any meathead can get a PhD in divinity.  You are as sad and pathetic as "Dr" Phil Fernandes.  Are you in a group home or something?

If this is your A game, give up and go away.  You are wasting everyone's time.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline naemhni

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4377
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2012, 12:37:33 PM »
btw, here is "Dr" Phil:
  Looks like a meathead jock, doesn't he?       
Kind of like Puddy, from Seinfeld or one of the meatheads from Jersey Shore
His background:
http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/about-ibd/our-staff/
» Ph.D. in Philosophy of Religion degree from Greenwich University
» Master of Arts in Religion degree from Liberty University
» Bachelor of Theology Degree from Columbia Evangelical Seminary.

No science. No biology. No psychology. No nothin'.  Columbia evangelical isn't even accredited.

Neither are Liberty University or Greenwich University, for that matter.

EDIT: My bad.  Liberty University is accredited.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 12:39:13 PM by pianodwarf »
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15093
  • Darwins +1135/-38
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #152 on: February 07, 2012, 03:46:13 PM »
Liberty is kind of iffy.  Parts of it are.  Their law school is.  I couldn't tell about the religion school so I didn't comment.  But they are well known for their religious cranks and if they accept columbia diploma mill as a BA, then there is a fundamental problem. 

I don't know if Greenwich, being in the UK, has the same regulating bodies.  So there again, I did not comment.  However, the same goes for them as Liberty - accepting columbia's BA is a problem.

The bigger problem for Phil, besides roid rage and plucking his obvious unibrow, is he's an unqualified idiot shooting his big mouth off about things he's never studied.  His doctoral dissertation reads not that much differently than Hovinds, only Phil's wasn't printed on a dot matrix.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline naemhni

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4377
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #153 on: February 07, 2012, 03:58:32 PM »
I don't know if Greenwich, being in the UK, has the same regulating bodies.  So there again, I did not comment.  However, the same goes for them as Liberty - accepting columbia's BA is a problem.

I'm pretty sure you're looking at the wrong university.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_University

Quote
Greenwich University is a controversial distance learning institution, originally founded in 1972 in Missouri (at this time, it was known as the International Institute for Advanced Studies), trading from 1990 to 2003 in Hawaii--1998 to 2003 under separate ownership--and from 1998 to 2002 in Norfolk Island. It has never been recognized by an accrediting body in either the United States or Australia.

[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15093
  • Darwins +1135/-38
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #154 on: February 07, 2012, 04:05:42 PM »
oh for...  I should have known he would not have gone to an actual school and certainly not the first one that pops up on google.   All these guys use mail order degrees. 


edit -
What do you think Miles?  Do you feel a little extra stupid for putting any stock in this charlatan who pretends to be a PhD?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 04:07:16 PM by screwtape »
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline naemhni

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4377
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #155 on: February 07, 2012, 04:23:31 PM »
oh for...  I should have known he would not have gone to an actual school and certainly not the first one that pops up on google.   All these guys use mail order degrees.

Obviously you're no dummy or anything, but even so, I wouldn't beat myself up about it too much if I were you.  I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the founders chose the name "Greenwich University" precisely in an effort to deceive people into thinking that they were the university that you thought it was -- especially since, of all the locations that the "university" has been based in, none is located near any place named Greenwich.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline EV

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • Darwins +52/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Musician, Political Activist & Secular Humanist
    • My Website
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #156 on: February 07, 2012, 05:22:47 PM »
I'm not trying to lay a gulit trip on anybody Historicity, and I concede none of the analagies I use are perfect. Of course there will be times when parents are mistaken, but I believe God is never mistaken. I can't prove that, I take it on faith for a number of reasons which make sense to me and other Christians.

Miles, I've been following this thread, and am enjoying the argument. I would like to ask you 3 simple questions. I would assume that your answer is undoubtedly yes to all three.

Do you believe that morality is granted to Humanity by God?

Do you believe that God gave us Free will?

Do you believe that God is perfect?

-Elliot
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3717
  • Darwins +244/-85
  • Gender: Male
    • Christian comics
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #157 on: February 07, 2012, 05:44:59 PM »
You know, everyone...I really didn't want to link in apologetic arguments, and I didn't really have time to look at many of them. I did indeed simply do a google search. I was more or less threatened with being kicked off the site if I didn't "prove" what I believe. Which is ridiculous, because I don't need to prove anything to myself, and I don't aim to convince you of anything, because I know "I" can't. I enjoy discussing issues and I enjoy discussing why 'I" believe. I sem to have explained that many times now.

I've also explained previosuly that I don't have a good scientific mind, so I really am lost when it comes to scientific discussion. All I calim is that there are many scientists who question evolutionary theory. Their credentials aren't all from universities that aren't prestigious, I'm sure.

I believe that our world was created, with all of my heart and mind. I just do.
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3717
  • Darwins +244/-85
  • Gender: Male
    • Christian comics
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #158 on: February 07, 2012, 05:46:53 PM »
I'm not trying to lay a gulit trip on anybody Historicity, and I concede none of the analagies I use are perfect. Of course there will be times when parents are mistaken, but I believe God is never mistaken. I can't prove that, I take it on faith for a number of reasons which make sense to me and other Christians.

Miles, I've been following this thread, and am enjoying the argument. I would like to ask you 3 simple questions. I would assume that your answer is undoubtedly yes to all three.

Do you believe that morality is granted to Humanity by God?

Do you believe that God gave us Free will?

Do you believe that God is perfect?

-Elliot

Hi Elliot

Yes, yes and yes.

btw, my name is Nathan. I don't mind sharing that. my son is Miles. Thats him blowing out the candles. I think he's magic...thus the moniker. ( magic in the sense of great, wonderful...he doesn't do any tricks, apart from the occasional disapperaing trick at dinner time )
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2012, 07:42:25 PM »
I was more or less threatened with being kicked off the site if I didn't "prove" what I believe.

That's because a claim needs to be backed up. It's called honesty, and I'm afraid it's a strange quirk of ours.


Which is ridiculous, because I don't need to prove anything to myself,

Which is not only part of the problem, but is also quite possibly one of the saddest things about theists.

Any belief you have should be proven to yourself, first and foremost. At least if you care at all whether your beliefs are real. The thing is that you're simply to content to believe in something that you can't prove because you don't care whether or not you lie to yourself as long as you can think what makes you happy.

What you just said is actually a summation of the thing that makes religion so truly and utterly vile. The deliberate and willful abdication of reason and reality.

I enjoy discussing issues and I enjoy discussing why 'I" believe.

We know why you believe. It's the same reason as every other theist ever. You believe because it gives you a nice feeling. All of your other reasons that you give are just you deluding yourself because as you have already admitted, you have no proof to support any of it.

The questions asked are not "why" you believe. The questions asked and still waiting for a real answer are:

For that matter, what about the Christians who disagree with what your definition of a Christian is?Why are you the only one who can be right?

Can you tell us why your beliefs have valiDity without using  an argument  that  could not apply equally to every other religion.

How do you know?


As I said, we know why you believe. It is the nature and substance of them that is being questioned, as well as their validity.

All I calim is that there are many scientists who question evolutionary theory. Their credentials aren't all from universities that aren't prestigious, I'm sure.

Less than 1% is not many.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3717
  • Darwins +244/-85
  • Gender: Male
    • Christian comics
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2012, 07:54:11 PM »

but is also quite possibly one of the saddest things about theists.

Who's sad? I'm not. My Christian friends aren't. No need to feel pity for us.



We know why you believe. It's the same reason as every other theist ever. You believe because it gives you a nice feeling. All of your other reasons that you give are just you deluding yourself because as you have already admitted, you have no proof to support any of it.

I plan to do a more detailed post on the testimony page sometime soonish.



The questions asked are not "why" you believe. The questions asked and still waiting for a real answer are:

For that matter, what about the Christians who disagree with what your definition of a Christian is?Why are you the only one who can be right?

Can you tell us why your beliefs have valiDity without using  an argument  that  could not apply equally to every other religion.

How do you know?


As I said, we know why you believe. It is the nature and substance of them that is being questioned, as well as their validity.

I guess I'll have to concede that I can't show you any acceptable, external or scientific validation that you want. Am I still allowed to join discussions with my perspectives?


« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 07:57:57 PM by magicmiles »
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #161 on: February 07, 2012, 09:12:31 PM »
Who's sad? I'm not. My Christian friends aren't. No need to feel pity for us.

Unfortunately there are many reasons to feel pity for you. The fact that you don't actually understand why is among them.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online Death over Life

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
  • Darwins +27/-15
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #162 on: February 07, 2012, 10:06:43 PM »
You know, everyone...I really didn't want to link in apologetic arguments, and I didn't really have time to look at many of them. I did indeed simply do a google search. I was more or less threatened with being kicked off the site if I didn't "prove" what I believe.

Time to put things into context magicmiles. The reason why I demanded evidence is for 1 reason and 1 reason only. In the short time I’ve been here, I have seen a few theists do exactly what you have just done, and instead of either showing it or shutting up, they just continuously spout the exact same thing you have been spouting (there IS evidence). Doing this once or twice, and we will ask, but keep saying it without proving it, eventually becomes trolling. Since you decided to answer it, with a dubious answer even you have disagreed with yourself, to me, imho, you would have been far better of to have just said what you just said instead of google searching. The google searching makes you look desperate.

To be a man, means to own up, apologize and not say that which you can’t back up anymore. Imo, I apologize if this is harsh, but since your son is your’ world, I think you have shown him a bad example of what to do in that kind of situation. Had you done this to begin with, it wouldn’t have been bad at all. I am more than willing to forgive, but trying to justify an answer instead of just saying, I don’t have evidence, is a sign of your character, which is where I can see where Alzael is coming from upon many reasons to pity you.

It’s a saying my Dad has told me that is very True: Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.

Which is ridiculous, because I don't need to prove anything to myself, and I don't aim to convince you of anything, because I know "I" can't. I enjoy discussing issues and I enjoy discussing why 'I" believe. I sem to have explained that many times now.

I have no problems if you can’t. All that means is just stop saying that there is evidence for your God when there clearly is none. At least you have proven to us you are a person and not a troll so I’ll give you credit for that.

Alzael responded perfectly, because you need to prove it to yourself before you can prove it to any of us, otherwise you are simply making a fool of yourself. Just how do you expect us to be convinced of your God if you haven’t even convinced yourself of this God?

Just don’t say things you are not willing to defend, and we will still be on good terms.

Why is indeed an emotions question concerning Religion. Being that many on here (including myself) are ex-Christians and ex-theists, this is a good quote on the road to the Truth: The Truth gives a damn about how you feel.

Once you can embrace that saying, only then we can discuss in a much more civilized argument.

I've also explained previosuly that I don't have a good scientific mind, so I really am lost when it comes to scientific discussion. All I calim is that there are many scientists who question evolutionary theory. Their credentials aren't all from universities that aren't prestigious, I'm sure.

I believe that our world was created, with all of my heart and mind. I just do.

As I said, if you are not willing to defend what you say, just don’t say it. It’s that easy. But if you really do have experience in a certain department, don’t just claim you have evidence and then google search to justify yourself making such claims, just post what your evidence really is if you have it.


but is also quite possibly one of the saddest things about theists.

Who's sad? I'm not. My Christian friends aren't. No need to feel pity for us.

If the way you portrayed yourself is the way you really are, and with that reaction towards Alzael, I’ll be honest. I agree with you. I don’t pity you, I pity your son having that as the example to look up to. Your son deserves better than that. If you don’t want to prove anything to yourself or to us, that’s cool, we’ve dealt with it our whole lives. At least prove it for Miles.

I guess I'll have to concede that I can't show you any acceptable, external or scientific validation that you want. Am I still allowed to join discussions with my perspectives?

Sure thing. Just don’t go acting like you know what you are talking about then. I’ll end it saying this:

Believe it or not, I was once in your shoes. I was on WWGHA as a Christian along with a friend (Hguols). We were debating the very same people you are (Alzael, Velkyn, Pianodwarf, Graybeard, etc.)

Although I was swamped, I did fight tooth and nail about what I believed. I forgot which discussion it was, I think Graybeard or Alzael was asking for evidence about a Bible story, and I could not find any, so instead of doing a cop-out google search, I admitted I was wrong.

Overall, the over hostility the forum contained pretty much made me leave here disgusted, but that doesn’t matter. I was “soul-searching” on my own with no influence from anybody, and looking at all the evidence with an open mind, and seeing some Bible Scriptures I’d never thought I’d see, I could not believe it. The people like Alzael, Velkyn, Pianodwarf, Graybeard, etc. were correct the entire time, but I could not see it due to my Theistic eyes to an extent. The reason why I said to an extent was because I was on shaky grounds to begin with, kind of like you, but had they not shown me reality as it is, I would have probably been a Devil Worshipper instead of an atheist. Devil Worshipper or Christian, is the exact same thing since they are still both theists.

Although it was a mini-testimony, the point is, Alzael, Velkyn, etc. are very wise and intelligent people. Although they can be offensive in a theist’s eyes at times, heed their words because more often than not, they are correct. This isn’t even about theism vs. atheism, it’s in general. If you really disagree with them, instead of using emotions, fight tooth and nail and bring your best to any of us. Holding yourself back does more harm than good, and that is simply all I’m trying to get out. Sorry if I am being a pompous ass or you feel that I’m exploiting your Son, but by the end of the night, we are just trying to help show you just exactly what is wrong with what you are claiming to believe, and why we are pitying you and your Christian buddies due to the willful ignorance and willingness to lie to your own face and not only justify, but approve and accept such practice.

Offline BustaBrown54

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #163 on: February 08, 2012, 10:02:10 AM »
I just honestly can't see how mm is still denying the obvious.
"Sweat saves blood, blood save lives, Brains save both."---Desert Fox

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +266/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #164 on: February 08, 2012, 10:17:56 AM »
I just honestly can't see how mm is still denying the obvious.

think "troll"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17023
  • Darwins +334/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #165 on: February 08, 2012, 01:32:06 PM »
You know, everyone...I really didn't want to link in apologetic arguments, and I didn't really have time to look at many of them. I did indeed simply do a google search. I was more or less threatened with being kicked off the site if I didn't "prove" what I believe. Which is ridiculous, because I don't need to prove anything to myself, and I don't aim to convince you of anything, because I know "I" can't. I enjoy discussing issues and I enjoy discussing why 'I" believe. I sem to have explained that many times now.
I can guess another reason that you didn't want to link to apologetics; that you know they fail.  I do not recall you being threatened at all.  You simply were told that if you make claims, you need to support them.  This is something I would guess that you would also request if you thought someone was lying to you.  Would you?   You have come on here trying making claims and trying to show the atheists wrong.  Many theists have tried to claim that they really didnt' come here to prove anything. 
Christians are called to proselytize and trying to claim you aren’t is so pathetically transparent.  Hmmm, I think I hear a rooster somewhere.   Your views are garbage and you will be constantly asked for evidence.   

I also expect you to answer my questions MM.  I ask them for good reasons.
Quote
I've also explained previosuly that I don't have a good scientific mind, so I really am lost when it comes to scientific discussion. All I calim is that there are many scientists who question evolutionary theory. Their credentials aren't all from universities that aren't prestigious, I'm sure.
and you can remedy that by doing research.  Claiming that you are ignorant so that’s why you should get a free pass won’t work.  You can learn so get over your willful ignorance.  You lie when you claim things you don’t know, so let me teach you right here, there are no scientists that are experts in the field that doubt that evolutionary theory is true.  Creationists drag up people who are fruit experts, engineers, people who are so long out of their field that they know *nothing* about what current science is (to the point that some are deceased they are so far back).  Why do they do this? So they can appeal to authority and people who are ignorant like you believe them.  I know it’s hard to think that your fellow Christians will *lie* to you, MM, but the fact is that they do and do so repeatedly.  Your laziness and willful ignorance allows you to repeat their lies and to appear like an idiot. 
Quote
I believe that our world was created, with all of my heart and mind. I just do.
oh golly,  other theists believe the same thing.  So, again there’s no reason to care what you believe.  You could believe that clapping saved Tinker Bell’s life and seem just as ridiculous. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:34:14 PM by velkyn »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline EV

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • Darwins +52/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Musician, Political Activist & Secular Humanist
    • My Website
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2012, 04:34:15 AM »
I'm not trying to lay a gulit trip on anybody Historicity, and I concede none of the analagies I use are perfect. Of course there will be times when parents are mistaken, but I believe God is never mistaken. I can't prove that, I take it on faith for a number of reasons which make sense to me and other Christians.

Miles, I've been following this thread, and am enjoying the argument. I would like to ask you 3 simple questions. I would assume that your answer is undoubtedly yes to all three.

Do you believe that morality is granted to Humanity by God?

Do you believe that God gave us Free will?

Do you believe that God is perfect?

-Elliot

Hi Elliot

Yes, yes and yes.

btw, my name is Nathan. I don't mind sharing that. my son is Miles. Thats him blowing out the candles. I think he's magic...thus the moniker. ( magic in the sense of great, wonderful...he doesn't do any tricks, apart from the occasional disapperaing trick at dinner time )
Sorry Nathan! Nice picture of your son, he looks happy.

Anywho, have a look at this.

In this argument, we are assuming the existence of God, and that he is a perfect being. We are also not using biblical evidence for any attributes of God or Humans, This is purely about the nature of God.

1. If God is Perfect, all of his attributes are perfect. (you have agreed with)

2.  Following from this, we can conclude that God is the ultimate moral agent. (you have agreed with)

3. God gave us our morals (which you have agreed with)

4. If God is a perfect being, to create something imperfect would be illogical. God would create the best possible state for us to live in.

5. God's perfection means he is unchanging. To create something imperfect is still illogical as he is creating something that is different from his perfection.

6. If we have our perfect morality from God, then that morality MUST by definition be perfect, as to have perfect morality is unchanging, and God cannot create something imperfect.

7. The very fact that a perfect morality is unchanging just proves that our morality did not come from God. We all have different views, and different moral standpoints. Sure God gave you free will, but that doesn't mean that we are actually able to have any chance of becoming evil as our morality should be perfect and unchanging.

Therefore, either God is not perfect, God's morality is not perfect, or God does not exist.

The most likely explanation is that he does not exist.

However, if his morality is not perfect, then that means that we are subject to an all powerful bully, and all the evil we see is not anything to do with the 'best possible world', or 'learning to be good through the demonstration of evil'...

What do you think?
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3717
  • Darwins +244/-85
  • Gender: Male
    • Christian comics
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2012, 05:30:09 AM »


4. If God is a perfect being, to create something imperfect would be illogical. God would create the best possible state for us to live in.

Don't think that can be assumed. If God is perfect then He could create mankind imperfect and still be right to do it.



5. God's perfection means he is unchanging. To create something imperfect is still illogical as he is creating something that is different from his perfection. 

I agree God is unchanging in His perfect nature. But that doesn't prevent Him from creating imperfection.


6. If we have our perfect morality from God, then that morality MUST by definition be perfect, as to have perfect morality is unchanging, and God cannot create something imperfect.

I don't think we have a perfect morality. Your question was 'do you believe morality was granted to us by God'. That I do believe. 


Sure God gave you free will, but that doesn't mean that we are actually able to have any chance of becoming evil as our morality should be perfect and unchanging.

Free will/original sin is I think the concept most people that post here jeer the loudest at ( hypothetical jeering, of course ). I'd be interested to have a one on one discussion with you on that subject if you like.

It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline EV

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • Darwins +52/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Musician, Political Activist & Secular Humanist
    • My Website
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #168 on: February 13, 2012, 06:53:29 AM »
Free will/original sin is I think the concept most people that post here jeer the loudest at ( hypothetical jeering, of course ). I'd be interested to have a one on one discussion with you on that subject if you like.

Interesting responses. Free will is a difficult one, I have a cracking analogy on free will and determinism that I think may be very relevant here.

I would too be interested to engage in a discussion on that. Want to take this outside (to the debating area?) :)
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17023
  • Darwins +334/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #169 on: February 13, 2012, 10:39:26 AM »
Don't think that can be assumed. If God is perfect then He could create mankind imperfect and still be right to do it.
So anything God does is defined as "right".  Rather circular argument.  Why would a god make an imperfect thing, MM?

Quote
I don't think we have a perfect morality. Your question was 'do you believe morality was granted to us by God'. That I do believe. 
So God gave us an imperfect morality?  Adn he punishes us for this? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline EV

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • Darwins +52/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Musician, Political Activist & Secular Humanist
    • My Website
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #170 on: February 13, 2012, 11:51:01 AM »
Don't think that can be assumed. If God is perfect then He could create mankind imperfect and still be right to do it.
So anything God does is defined as "right".  Rather circular argument.  Why would a god make an imperfect thing, MM?
I'd imagine the response is going to be 'it's to show us how to live correctly'. In my experience, theists regularly use the argument of 'without evil we cannot know good' as an answer to this. However, I do not quite know why God would actually be able to create evil if he was perfect, as creating something evil is evil in itself. I'd love miles to tell me his viewpoint on this question.
 
Quote
I don't think we have a perfect morality. Your question was 'do you believe morality was granted to us by God'. That I do believe. 
So God gave us an imperfect morality?  And he punishes us for this?

Another grain of sand in the desert of unanswered questions about Almighty God. None of these questions are logically answerable. If we have free will, and our morality is from God, then it is perfect and we are all identical, so we have no free will. If we have free will and our morality is from God yet imperfect, God cannot be perfect. If we have free will and our morality is not from God, Determinism kicks the shit out of God's omniscience.
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17023
  • Darwins +334/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #171 on: February 13, 2012, 11:57:46 AM »
indeed.  I guess MM is going to stop participating here, considering his "farewell" thread, of course right when the questions are getting hard.  No suprise in that.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/