Author Topic: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists  (Read 3269 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2012, 08:42:11 PM »


Because it isn't. That's why you had  to play  the faith card. Faith is only ever used when a person can't make a real argument for something. If you had proof you would have gone straight to that. Faith is a cop-out.

It's as I said before. Can you tell us why your beliefs have valiDity without using  an argument  that  could not apply equally to every other religion.

All any Christian can do to point someone to the reality of God is to point to Jesus, the cross and the resurrection. We firmly believe he existed, died and rose again. You probably know the historical evidence for that better than me and choose to reject it. I don't. It can be as simple as that, except to point out I also believe it's God who has allowed me to. That I can't explain. How come reading the bible, sometimes just once, can cause someone to worship God immediately and forever onwards, whilst others can read it and detest the very notion of God? Dunno. Thats a pretty amazing book.

What about the other Christians who come to different conclusions? What if the bible was just written by some guy as a joke? How do you know?
[/quote]

Well, I guess I can't know if the definition of 'know' is something like: be able to prove it so that not a single person can disagree.

And a Christian, by definition, is someone who worships Christ. So its really not possible for a Christian to come to a different conclusion about Christianity per se, although its natural there are diferences of opinion in some aspects of Christian doctrine.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2012, 08:53:31 PM »
...which you can better apply with more data, which you'll get with experience.

You can get data through various means. Experience needn't be one of them. And older is not the same as more experienced. The very fact that I have to explain this to you proves it.


Oh. Well, if you can explain to me how someone manages to freeze time, obtain data, and then unfreeze time, I'll salute you. If not, that person has gotten older whilst they obtained data, and I'll stand by my opinion that the older a person is the more data they have accumulated, good and bad (@ Alzael ), and used their various levels of logical thinking ability to turn the data into knowledge.

OF COURSE there will be 18 years olds who have managed to use less data to obtain more knowledge than a 30 year old has obtained from more data, but I guarantee it is the exception rather than the rule.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2012, 08:59:36 PM »
Oh. Well, if you can explain to me how someone manages to freeze time, obtain data, and then unfreeze time, I'll salute you.

If you really want to know, I will.

If not, that person has gotten older whilst they obtained data, and I'll stand by my opinion that the older a person is the more data they have accumulated, good and bad (@ Alzael ), and used their various levels of logical thinking ability to turn the data into knowledge.

Of course a person gets older as time moves forward. That was not my argument. My argument was that age by itself is meaningless. Unless you're talking about someone who's literally too young or too old to gather knowledge, obviously.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2012, 09:01:46 PM »

If you really want to know, I will.

I sure do.



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Offline One Above All

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2012, 09:04:49 PM »
I sure do.

Stopping time is not impossible, as you might think. Collapse every single structure in the universe into a black hole and the universe itself will collapse, effectively freezing time (by ending it). Then just wait (yes, I know this concept doesn't make sense when time is absent) for another big bang. It's not simple, but it is feasible, with sufficiently advanced technology.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2012, 09:39:00 PM »
All any Christian can do to point someone to the reality of God is to point to Jesus, the cross and the resurrection. We firmly believe he existed, died and rose again. You probably know the historical evidence for that better than me and choose to reject it. I don't. It can be as simple as that, except to point out I also believe it's God who has allowed me to. That I can't explain. How come reading the bible, sometimes just once, can cause someone to worship God immediately and forever onwards, whilst others can read it and detest the very notion of God? Dunno. Thats a pretty amazing book.

This is no different than any other religion would, or could, say.

All you have said is that you believe, you have a book (So does everyone), you can't explain it ( religion never can for some reason), everything you have said is indistinguishable from a delusional fantasy.

So my questions still remains unanswered.

Well, I guess I can't know if the definition of 'know' is something like: be able to prove it so that not a single person can disagree.

Except that isn't the definition of "know" you're just being smarmy now.

You can know something and people can disagree. However you can't 'know' something without evidence. Which you have not provided.

Evidence must be demonstrable. It must be something that you can either show me directly, or tell me how to do and I can replicate it using the same methods. It must be something that I can use to tell the difference between the truth and something that you made up. If it's something that could point to several different conclusions than it is useles.

If you do not have evidence, you cannot say that you know anything. At least not honestly. As I said, that's why you have to use the cop-out of faith.


And a Christian, by definition, is someone who worships Christ. So its really not possible for a Christian to come to a different conclusion about Christianity per se, although its natural there are diferences of opinion in some aspects of Christian doctrine.

You're dodging the question. I thought you didn't run?

What about the other Christians who come to different conclusions?

Christians argue about whether Jesus was divine or just a man. They argue over whether he was real or a metaphor. There are all sorts of different conclusions about Christianity. So please don't insult everyone's intelligence by trying to pretend that there aren't.

For that matter, what about the Christians who disagree with what your definition of a Christian is?
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Offline albeto

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2012, 10:04:41 PM »
All any Christian can do to point someone to the reality of God is to point to Jesus, the cross and the resurrection.

This is an untrue statement because there is no Jesus, cross or resurrection to point to.  History offers zero evidence for the existence of this guy, only evidence of people talking about him after the fact.  What you do have is the emotional response to thinking about and imagining this kind of event.  The strength and pleasure of that emotional response is what you have, and the community that serves to support and encourage one another in this fantasy is what you have. 

We firmly believe he existed, died and rose again.

You firmly believe this because you absolutely trust those who tell you they firmly believe it, and you have been trained to interpret certain events and emotional responses to apply to this fantasy to be understood as "evidence," such as you understand evidence to work. 

You probably know the historical evidence for that better than me and choose to reject it. I don't. It can be as simple as that, except to point out I also believe it's God who has allowed me to. That I can't explain.

There is no historical evidence to be found for the existence of this character, there is only evidence of people who were identified as belonging to the cult that honored him. 

How come reading the bible, sometimes just once, can cause someone to worship God immediately and forever onwards, whilst others can read it and detest the very notion of God? Dunno. Thats a pretty amazing book.

Same reason some people can follow Allah after reading the Koran, or follow Father Gad after reading the Book of Mormon, or follow astrology after experiencing their horoscope as accurate.  An emotional response to a book doesn't validate the claims within the book. 

And a Christian, by definition, is someone who worships Christ. So its really not possible for a Christian to come to a different conclusion about Christianity per se, although its natural there are diferences of opinion in some aspects of Christian doctrine.

No, that's the definition of Magic Decoder Ring.  A "True Christian" follows the "Real Christ" and of course only those who agree with you know who Jesus really is.  Interestingly, everyone thinks the same thing and would put you squarely outside the parameters of "True Christian" because their magic decoder ring says a different thing than yours. 

Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2012, 10:05:58 PM »
I sure do.

Stopping time is not impossible, as you might think. Collapse every single structure in the universe into a black hole and the universe itself will collapse, effectively freezing time (by ending it). Then just wait (yes, I know this concept doesn't make sense when time is absent) for another big bang. It's not simple, but it is feasible, with sufficiently advanced technology.

Amusingly, some might say that will actually happen before their kids start thinking rationally
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2012, 10:21:21 PM »

 If it's something that could point to several different conclusions than it is useles.

By your reasoning you then have absolutely nothing but faith to go on when you say there isn't a God, or an intelligent creator of the universe. Because science can only trace the origins of matter so far. Best I've heard is...we anticipate soon being able to explain how something came from nothing. And that somehow is more acceptable than a Christian saying that one day all will be revealed. Which is crap.



If you do not have evidence, you cannot say that you know anything. At least not honestly. As I said, that's why you have to use the cop-out of faith.

Indeed. You have a different faith than mine. I have faith that a designed world came from a designer. You have faith that random explosions created order, and that the origin of that first explosion will one day be explained, etc etc.



You're dodging the question. I thought you didn't run?

I'm not. I don't.



What about the other Christians who come to different conclusions?

Christians argue about whether Jesus was divine or just a man. They argue over whether he was real or a metaphor. There are all sorts of different conclusions about Christianity. So please don't insult everyone's intelligence by trying to pretend that there aren't.

For that matter, what about the Christians who disagree with what your definition of a Christian is?

I know you don't like non-atheists deciding what an atheist is, please allow Christians to say that a Christian is somebody who trusts in the deity, death and resurrection of Christ. If someone disputes any of those things, they are not a Christian however much they claim to be. There are different conclusions about Jesus, granted, but CHRISTIANS have come to the conclusions I noted.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2012, 10:24:02 PM »
Luci, he'd asked for something people could actually do, didn't he?  Not something that could be done in principle, but something that actually can be done...
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Offline One Above All

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2012, 10:25:58 PM »
Amusingly, some might say that will actually happen before their kids start thinking rationally

It's always amusing when parents belittle their kids.[1]

Luci, he'd asked for something people could actually do, didn't he?  Not something that could be done in principle, but something that actually can be done...

It can be done, just not with our level of technology.
 1. I'm being sarcastic here, in case you didn't pick up on it.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #98 on: February 02, 2012, 10:30:53 PM »

There is no historical evidence to be found for the existence of this character, there is only evidence of people who were identified as belonging to the cult that honored him. 

Sigh. How many people of renown who lived many years ago DO you believe existed, and on what basis? Is it wieight of numbers, amount of textual references?

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Offline albeto

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #99 on: February 02, 2012, 10:37:15 PM »
Sigh. How many people of renown who lived many years ago DO you believe existed, and on what basis? Is it wieight of numbers, amount of textual references?

Gimme an example of someone of renown who lived many years ago and we'll take a look at the evidence.   


Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #100 on: February 02, 2012, 10:37:32 PM »
Amusingly, some might say that will actually happen before their kids start thinking rationally

It's always amusing when parents belittle their kids.[1]

Luci, he'd asked for something people could actually do, didn't he?  Not something that could be done in principle, but something that actually can be done...

It can be done, just not with our level of technology.
 1. I'm being sarcastic here, in case you didn't pick up on it.

Yeah, you'll be a perfect parent with infinite patience and never a moment of frustration at your kids inability to see things the way you do.

It can be done theoretically, perhaps, but not in reality. Did you just want to go ahead and concede that you can't stop time?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2012, 10:39:42 PM »
Yeah, you'll be a perfect parent with infinite patience and never a moment of frustration at your kids inability to see things the way you do.

I'm not planning on having kids at all.

It can be done theoretically, perhaps, but not in reality.

Our reality is the universe. It can be done in the universe, under certain conditions. Ergo, it can be done in reality.

Did you just want to go ahead and concede that you can't stop time?

The only thing I did concede is that we can't do it with our current level of technology. Nothing more.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline sun_king

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2012, 10:39:58 PM »

There is no historical evidence to be found for the existence of this character, there is only evidence of people who were identified as belonging to the cult that honored him. 

Sigh. How many people of renown who lived many years ago DO you believe existed, and on what basis? Is it wieight of numbers, amount of textual references?

Alexander the Great, Hannibal Barca, Julius Ceaser, Pompey, Xerxes... Want more?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2012, 10:47:50 PM »
Sigh. How many people of renown who lived many years ago DO you believe existed, and on what basis? Is it wieight of numbers, amount of textual references?

Gimme an example of someone of renown who lived many years ago and we'll take a look at the evidence.   

Lets go with Jethro Hull :)

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Offline albeto

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2012, 10:54:46 PM »

Alexander the Great, Hannibal Barca, Julius Ceaser, Pompey, Xerxes... Want more?

Written accounts of contemporary historians, friends, enemies, written accounts of their actions, artifacts and archaeological evidence.  None of these exist for the character of Jesus. 

Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2012, 11:02:52 PM »
Sigh. How many people of renown who lived many years ago DO you believe existed, and on what basis? Is it wieight of numbers, amount of textual references?

Gimme an example of someone of renown who lived many years ago and we'll take a look at the evidence.   

Lets go with Jethro Hull :)

Apologies, Jethro Tull

More than just a great rock band...
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2012, 11:07:42 PM »

Alexander the Great, Hannibal Barca, Julius Ceaser, Pompey, Xerxes... Want more?

Written accounts of contemporary historians, friends, enemies, written accounts of their actions, artifacts and archaeological evidence.  None of these exist for the character of Jesus.

Well, I think we have written accounts of friends covered with Jesus. There is apparently a mention by Josephus, although I've never read up on it. What artefacts would there be pointing to Jesus to find? Although I did read some where that the headboard from the cross still exists somewhere.

If you die tomorrow and none of your enemies comment on your life but your friends do, I don't see how that lessens your existence or proof of it.
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Offline albeto

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2012, 11:28:50 PM »

Well, I think we have written accounts of friends covered with Jesus. There is apparently a mention by Josephus, although I've never read up on it. What artefacts would there be pointing to Jesus to find? Although I did read some where that the headboard from the cross still exists somewhere.

If you die tomorrow and none of your enemies comment on your life but your friends do, I don't see how that lessens your existence or proof of it.

Joseph was born after the date of the supposed death and resurrection (37 C.E.), so any account would have been nothing more than hearsay.   Josephus' histories six decades after the fact and likely written after the gospels cannot be considered evidence of any kind except for the existence of the written gospels.  Furthermore, the bit in his histories that includes Jesus is widely accepted to have been interloped at a later date.   I can find people who will make statements about being abducted by aliens but without any corroborating evidence, there's no reason to believe personal testimony about something so fantastic.   As to my life and future death, there will be no remarkable claims to demand evidence. 

Offline sun_king

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2012, 11:38:39 PM »

Alexander the Great, Hannibal Barca, Julius Ceaser, Pompey, Xerxes... Want more?

Written accounts of contemporary historians, friends, enemies, written accounts of their actions, artifacts and archaeological evidence.  None of these exist for the character of Jesus.

Well, I think we have written accounts of friends covered with Jesus. There is apparently a mention by Josephus, although I've never read up on it. What artefacts would there be pointing to Jesus to find? Although I did read some where that the headboard from the cross still exists somewhere.

If you die tomorrow and none of your enemies comment on your life but your friends do, I don't see how that lessens your existence or proof of it.

If I live a life worth remembering, it is not just the friends commenting. We are talking about someone extraordinary here, right?

I too think there are written accounts of Witwicky somewhere and the shard of All Spark exists in Namibia, buried under a medium sized mountain.

Offline Death over Life

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2012, 11:41:04 PM »

Alexander the Great, Hannibal Barca, Julius Ceaser, Pompey, Xerxes... Want more?

Written accounts of contemporary historians, friends, enemies, written accounts of their actions, artifacts and archaeological evidence.  None of these exist for the character of Jesus.

Well, I think we have written accounts of friends covered with Jesus. There is apparently a mention by Josephus, although I've never read up on it. What artefacts would there be pointing to Jesus to find? Although I did read some where that the headboard from the cross still exists somewhere.

If you die tomorrow and none of your enemies comment on your life but your friends do, I don't see how that lessens your existence or proof of it.

Well, I know I'm late getting into the fro, but I still have some info in mind.

To begin with, we have written accounts of friends covered with Jesus? It is the way you have worded it, but I'm thinking of people who have JC's flesh wrapped around them like JC is actually an article of clothing. May need to re-word that.

Josephus is a 1st Century Jewish historian who would detail everything concerning the Jewish history. Here's a wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

Now, despite the fact that he was a historian, he is not a reliable source of information of a Jesus existing and here's why:

1. Look at the year he was born. 37 a.d. So, if we were to interpret Christ the way Christians described him, Jesus would have already left Earth 4 years before he was even born, and since Josephus didn't point to any evidence, but only made a mention of Christ, crucified under Pontious Pilate, he is only a hearsay account at best. Hearsay, is not a reliable historical source of information.

2. Josephus writing this stuff, already had to deal with thousands of "Gospels" already, so when he made such a broad generalized statement of a Jesus, he could have been talking about the Gnostic Jesus, or from the Gospel of Thomas, or Judas or the other myriads that were already around before Catholicism deemed them heretical and ordered to burn them.

What artifacts could point to a Christ existing? Easy, there is the tomb of Jesus for starters. Problem is, we can't get that. There is as you said, that board above the cross, or the cross itself. There is also the crown of thorns, the robes, the Spear of Destiny (rumored to be on a sunken German Nazi U-boat, still has yet to be proven), something as simplistic as a birth or death certificate, or maybe the house or stable that Jesus lived in or was born. We don't know what happened to that gold, frankensince, and myrrh. Let us even be more broad and let us say either of the Arks (Ark of the Covenant and Noah's Ark), Moses' staff, the stone tablets containing the 10 Commandments.

Point being is that there is so much out there that could prove the existence of Christ or even "God" easily, yet the problem is, with how advanced we are with our technology and how intelligent we have become to find any 1 of these things, all of this excavating and researching and we haven't even found 1 of anything I have (or you have for that matter) written about. ALL of our searching non-stop, and ALL we can find is a freaking Shroud of Turin that has been long disproven. That Shroud of Turin is all Christianity has to reside on for evidence, and with the excavating, it has proven to be a dud, so what does that tell you? Do you see why you have to have faith to believe in what you believe instead of evidence?

I just want you to know I haven't even touched the surface of how Christianity is a lie that is founded upon hatred and fear, and that Christianity is also a plagiarism of many of the belief systems beforehand. Since you are a Christian, I'd rather attack the Christianity before the Theism first, because even if you can prove Theism to be True, Christianity is 100% impossible to be True.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 11:42:37 PM by Death over Life »

Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2012, 11:45:04 PM »

Well, I think we have written accounts of friends covered with Jesus. There is apparently a mention by Josephus, although I've never read up on it. What artefacts would there be pointing to Jesus to find? Although I did read some where that the headboard from the cross still exists somewhere.

If you die tomorrow and none of your enemies comment on your life but your friends do, I don't see how that lessens your existence or proof of it.

Joseph was born after the date of the supposed death and resurrection (37 C.E.), so any account would have been nothing more than hearsay.   Josephus' histories six decades after the fact and likely written after the gospels cannot be considered evidence of any kind except for the existence of the written gospels.  Furthermore, the bit in his histories that includes Jesus is widely accepted to have been interloped at a later date.   I can find people who will make statements about being abducted by aliens but without any corroborating evidence, there's no reason to believe personal testimony about something so fantastic.   As to my life and future death, there will be no remarkable claims to demand evidence.

Re/ Josephus' references added later - Widely accepted by who, and what evidence do they have? You seem to have faith in evidence which disproves other evidence, but why is that evidence stronger than the evidence it apparently disproves?

And the issue of whether somebody would write about you is irrelevant - I asked, if they did, would it lessen the reliability of their testimony if they were friends?

Would their testimony strengthen or lessen if they had every apparent reason to claim you never lived but still claimed it?

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2012, 11:54:43 PM »

To begin with, we have written accounts of friends covered with Jesus? It is the way you have worded it, but I'm thinking of people who have JC's flesh wrapped around them like JC is actually an article of clothing. May need to re-word that.

good one. Punctuation bites me there.



2. Josephus writing this stuff, already had to deal with thousands of "Gospels" already, so when he made such a broad generalized statement of a Jesus, he could have been talking about the Gnostic Jesus, or from the Gospel of Thomas, or Judas or the other myriads that were already around before Catholicism deemed them heretical and ordered to burn them.

Maybe...but why would a historian with no obvious sympathy to Jesus mention him unless he was convinced he was real?

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2012, 12:05:01 AM »
The question you have to ask is why would a jew mention jesus as messiah at all? Then you could ask who would have the motive to forge the writings of Josephus a few centuries later. Which some scholars think to be the case.

God could get his kid to earth but not get him any concurrent followers who could write? I mean, he had to see that coming... ;D ;D ;D
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2012, 12:06:23 AM »
Sigh. How many people of renown who lived many years ago DO you believe existed, and on what basis? Is it wieight of numbers, amount of textual references?
...
If you die tomorrow and none of your enemies comment on your life but your friends do, I don't see how that lessens your existence or proof of it.

magicmiles...

I think you're missing a very important point here...  If you died tomorrow and your friends said that they knew you while you were alive and that you were GOD INCARNATE, does that change the way people will determine whether or not you existed?  Do you think the people who heard that story about you would just believe it, or would they demand an absolute ton of evidence to back it up? 

You make it sound like our demand for proof is so far beyond the norm that we are incapable of believing that anyone exists without iron clad evidence.  That's simply not true.  It has to do with reason and logic.  The very first thing your mind does when it is attempting to determine whether or not a character that we learn about exists is to put it through the reality detector.  Every single character, in every single book that you've ever read or every movie you've ever seen, that could do things that were not consistent with reality was probably automatically rejected as having been real.  I'm thinking of characters like Jedi knights, Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, Superman and other characters such as those.  Your brain automatically tells you 'FICTION' when you see or read about the things they can do.  It's the very first step!  And that's the same reason that your friends story about you being God incarnate would not likely be accepted, and they probably wouldn't believe you existed as God.   

So when it comes to reading about Jesus, no matter how you want to spin it... if you were honestly trying to determine whether or not that person (as he is described in the bible) actually existed, the minute you read that he walks on water, turns water into wine, and rose from the dead after 3 days, an honest mind is screaming 'FICTION'.  The only possible way it doesn't is if you've FIRST been brainwashed by people you trust to believe it's all true.  If you read the bible the same way you read any other book, then you are going to treat the character of Jesus as a fictional character. That's just a fact.  And if you are going to say that the bible isn't the same as any other book, then I am going to ask you who told you that, what valid reason do they have for believing it (aside from reading it from the bible, which we all know is circular reasoning), and whether or not they were incapable of being wrong about something.   

I might be willing to believe that a charismatic character named Jesus once existed, but as soon as you tack on all the extra divine stuff, you can discount it pretty fast. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2012, 12:10:55 AM »
The question you have to ask is why would a jew mention jesus as messiah at all? Then you could ask who would have the motive to forge the writings of Josephus a few centuries later. Which some scholars think to be the case.

God could get his kid to earth but not get him any concurrent followers who could write? I mean, he had to see that coming... ;D ;D ;D

What God does see is scores of believers who have been convinced in spite of physical and historical evidence which is viwed with skepticism. And He tells us to go and make disciples of all nations...we're working on it ;D
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: LOL the guide on how to convert atheists
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2012, 12:24:02 AM »

I think you're missing a very important point here...  If you died tomorrow and your friends said that they knew you while you were alive and that you were GOD INCARNATE, does that change the way people will determine whether or not you existed?  Do you think the people who heard that story about you would just believe it, or would they demand an absolute ton of evidence to back it up? 

Sure they'd want evidence. I can only imagine the evidence Peter etc had was pretty convincing given the way the church took off. Especially when it was a very dangerous message to preach.


You make it sound like our demand for proof is so far beyond the norm that we are incapable of believing that anyone exists without iron clad evidence.  That's simply not true.  It has to do with reason and logic.  The very first thing your mind does when it is attempting to determine whether or not a character that we learn about exists is to put it through the reality detector.  Every single character, in every single book that you've ever read or every movie you've ever seen, that could do things that were not consistent with reality was probably automatically rejected as having been real.  I'm thinking of characters like Jedi knights, Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, Superman and other characters such as those.  Your brain automatically tells you 'FICTION' when you see or read about the things they can do.  It's the very first step!  And that's the same reason that your friends story about you being God incarnate would not likely be accepted, and they probably wouldn't believe you existed as God.   

So when it comes to reading about Jesus, no matter how you want to spin it... if you were honestly trying to determine whether or not that person (as he is described in the bible) actually existed, the minute you read that he walks on water, turns water into wine, and rose from the dead after 3 days, an honest mind is screaming 'FICTION'.  The only possible way it doesn't is if you've FIRST been brainwashed by people you trust to believe it's all true.  If you read the bible the same way you read any other book, then you are going to treat the character of Jesus as a fictional character. That's just a fact.  And if you are going to say that the bible isn't the same as any other book, then I am going to ask you who told you that, what valid reason do they have for believing it (aside from reading it from the bible, which we all know is circular reasoning), and whether or not they were incapable of being wrong about something.   

I might be willing to believe that a charismatic character named Jesus once existed, but as soon as you tack on all the extra divine stuff, you can discount it pretty fast.

I agree that it's normally pretty easy to spot fiction. I consider myself especially good at spotting BS. But when I read the bible...it just seems right. As it does for so many others. Mysterious indeed, but there you have it.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.