Author Topic: I think you guys need to see this creation vs evolution thread. bonus noahs ark  (Read 4677 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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When it takes 10,000 bacterial generations for a new species to emerge, why should anyone expect it to be take any less for a new animal species to emerge.  In fact, it probably takes more since animals are much larger than bacteria.

Offline Astreja

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but I will never say sorry for telling the truth!

Cowpar, you have to prove you're telling the truth first.  It's useless to just say that you're telling the truth, because we have no reason to believe you.

Start by supporting your claim that your god actually exists.  You may not use scriptures, hearsay or your own personal experiences.  You may only use physical evidence which can be verified by any scientist in the world in any suitably equipped laboratory.

Good luck... You'll need it.
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Offline caveat_imperator

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You cannot redefine what it means for something to be a scientific theory and expect to be taken seriously.
Sadly, he'll probably keep using his creationist-approved definition no matter how many times he's corrected.
Yet another 'preach-watched-moderated' creo/IDiot.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline Hatter23

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look, I'm not making easy for you, but your not making it easy for me...
Not thinking and just going "magic man did it" is easy
Not considering facts and accepting the most popoularly mythology at the time and place you are born is easy
Not haveing the guts to say," this is the best we can come up with, until somebody can back up their model more than I can back up mine with facts...I'll concede" is easy
Not accepting the inevitibility of the demise is easy.


You've made it easy for yourself, we haven't made it easy on ourselves. So we aren't goingto be easy on you because reality isn't easy, farietales are.


I'm sorry you are offended by my message, but your is just as offending.
I'm offended by your lack of intellect. Our message of "Hey stop thinking like a medeival peasant and pay attention to facts" isn't offensive, it is merely harsh. It is because reality is harsh.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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When it takes 10,000 bacterial generations for a new species to emerge, why should anyone expect it to be take any less for a new animal species to emerge.  In fact, it probably takes more since animals are much larger than bacteria.
Actually it was quite a bit less for the speciation of the Farro Island house mouse. Only about 250 years, which is pretty amazing for a mammal.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online jaimehlers

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When it takes 10,000 bacterial generations for a new species to emerge, why should anyone expect it to be take any less for a new animal species to emerge.  In fact, it probably takes more since animals are much larger than bacteria.
Actually it was quite a bit less for the speciation of the Farro Island house mouse. Only about 250 years, which is pretty amazing for a mammal.
Right, but how different was it?  I'm not disputing that it would be classified as a different species, the problem is being able to obviously show that it's noticeably different than its parent species.

Offline Turbo SS

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Wow this thread blew up since I last checked  :o

Maybe this creationist will try and answer my thread about which specific parts of science christians believe and which they dont.  Please see the thread and feel free to attempt to answer.  No bible literalists/creationists have tried yet.  :'(

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21305.0.html

Online Azdgari

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When it takes 10,000 bacterial generations for a new species to emerge, why should anyone expect it to be take any less for a new animal species to emerge.  In fact, it probably takes more since animals are much larger than bacteria.

I'm not sure it's an apples-to-apples comparison.  The usual definition of "species" for animals refers to their ability to breed and produce viable offspring.  It's only a coherent definition when applied to sexually reproducing organisms.

Bacteria do not have "species" in that sense, because they produce asexually.  It makes no sense to say that bacteria A belongs to an entirely different species from that of identical bacteria B due to their inability to sexually procreate and produce viable offspring, because they that's not how they reproduce in the first place.

"Species" means two different things here.
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Offline Brad the Bold

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"Pegg's" attempt at explaining how sloths got to South America after the flood reads like a Monty Python sketch.

"Are you suggesting that coconuts sloths migrate?"

"Not at all, they could be carried."

Quote
for all we know they might have been carried there on the backs of people who migrated in search of new lands. People have been breeding and raising all sorts of animals and moving them around with them as they migrated to new places.

Offline inveni0

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cowpar2, you and your fellow creationists are correct when you share that science doesn't have all of the answers.  That's been pretty true of science since its inception into civilization.  You even make a point of acknowledging that science admits to not having all of the answers.  And that's great, because it means you're half-way to understanding why science trumps religion.  Ready?  I'm about to blow your mind.

If you woke up tomorrow and found a crisp, clean one-hundred dollar bill on your nightstand, what would you do?  You didn't leave it there.  It's not yours from the day before.  So how would you explain its presence?  I assume that you're intelligent enough to start with the most likely explanation: ask someone who shares your residence if they set it there.  If you lived alone, you might check to see if anyone came into your home during the night.  You may check your windows and patio doors.  You may even thoroughly search closet and attic space to see if the intruder was still in your home.  You would exhaust all of these possibilities before conceding that the $100 bill materialized out of no where.

You would behave like a scientist.

And then you'd have two choices.  You'd either say, "It came from no where, hallelujah," and carry on your way, or you'd say, "How could it come from nowhere?  I've got to find out."

That's how the origin of the universe works.  We ALL agree that it came from nowhere.  (Either God created it from nothing, or it exploded from nothing on its own.)  The difference is that you're happy with an explanation that was fabricated thousands of years ago by men who had never once in their entire life stepped foot into a laboratory, applied the scientific method, and answered a troubling question.  You are happy to fill gaps with fairy tales.

One day, you'll see the error there, and you'll feel pretty stupid.  I eventually saw the error, and now I'm more intelligent than I've ever been, because I actively seek the truth about the universe.  And let me tell you, the truth that we know is much more majestic than the lies in the Bible.

EDIT:  Also, I should add that a lot of the points the guy in your video makes are based on the (correct) assumption that the audience is ignorant.  In fact, all of the points rely on this.  For example, why do Venus and Uranus spin backward?  For the same reason that Uranus is tipped on its side: impacts with planetoids (dwarf planets).  In fact, if we were able to watch long enough, we'd eventually see the next planet form (Ceres) in the Asteroid Belt.  And we'd get to watch it obtain its final orbit and rotation.  But we've only been watching the skies for a very, very small amount of time.  That's why it's hard to see stars form, because they don't form as quickly as they explode.  But they are forming.  Dozens upon dozens at a time in billions upon billions of nebulae.  In fact, you can see several from your backyard using a $30 telescope from the shelves of Toys R Us.  But you have to take a moment and empower yourself to see the truth about the imaginary gods, or you'll never be free to live a happy and productive life.

Also, http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogallery/index.html?collection_id=14394&media_id=128457961 will give you a nice view of some stars forming.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:19:37 PM by inveni0 »
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Offline rockv12

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Facts?  Nobody wants the facts!  How life emerged and the formed is irrelevant to evolution!  They're two completely different things.  Evolution is proven.  Everything else is a big question mark for evolutionists, but creationists are still irrational to doubt all the evidence for evolution.  Ask anyone in here how the hummingbird evolved or how sexual reproduction evolved.  Nobody seems to know.  Ask an evolutionists how the Big Bang was created...nobody seems to know....But ALL the evidence points to evolution.  It's bizarre land in here.

Offline jeremy0

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lol, u didn't watch it so u don't knnow if it's bs
if u REALLY want to know the truth (or in your case, better understanding of lies)
then you'd watch it....
but atheists have always been lazy....
that's why they don't believe in a god, cuz if there was one
then they'd be responsible for their actions
(that's in there)
Let's play a game.  I have a word.  It starts with 'd'.  ends in 'b'.  it has four total letters.  now finish... 
These guys don't want to waste their time listening to rubbish.  They also don't want their minds to be tarnished by your holy crap.  I didn't waste my time on the video either.
I have many reasons why I don't believe in God as we have described it.  None of them are because I am not responsible for my own actions.  We do have laws - and I have not broken any of them.  call me damned, but I would say you are insane.  In my heaven, you'll be the first to taste my fiery sword!!  I have absolute power in my kingdom!!  (That's about the same kind of crap I would have expected out of the video..)
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline jeremy0

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Facts?  Nobody wants the facts!  How life emerged and the formed is irrelevant to evolution!  They're two completely different things.  Evolution is proven.  Everything else is a big question mark for evolutionists, but creationists are still irrational to doubt all the evidence for evolution.  Ask anyone in here how the hummingbird evolved or how sexual reproduction evolved.  Nobody seems to know.  Ask an evolutionists how the Big Bang was created...nobody seems to know....But ALL the evidence points to evolution.  It's bizarre land in here.
We just had a thread earlier today that creationism is going to be taught in Tennessee schools.  Ouch!  Quick - I need a lighter and plenty of cigarettes...
Edit]  - How the big bang was created - the hypothesis is a higgs-boson.  But yeah, we don't know how it started because we can't research it, we can only calculate it and form mathematical equasions.. It's an event that has never been witnessed, but we know with almost complete certainty that it happened that way.  But the fact that we can't study it, begs the similar question how did god come to be.  And the answer to both - it just 'happened' or 'always was..'
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 10:35:18 PM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline rockv12

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We just had a thread earlier today that creationism is going to be taught in Tennessee schools.  Ouch!  Quick - I need a lighter and plenty of cigarettes...
Edit]  - How the big bang was created - the hypothesis is a higgs-boson.  But yeah, we don't know how it started because we can't research it, we can only calculate it and form mathematical equasions.. It's an event that has never been witnessed, but we know with almost complete certainty that it happened that way.  But the fact that we can't study it, begs the similar question how did god come to be.  And the answer to both - it just 'happened' or 'always was..'

And Christians are "delusional" to believe in something that has "always been" or "unanswerable"? 

Offline jeremy0

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We just had a thread earlier today that creationism is going to be taught in Tennessee schools.  Ouch!  Quick - I need a lighter and plenty of cigarettes...
Edit]  - How the big bang was created - the hypothesis is a higgs-boson.  But yeah, we don't know how it started because we can't research it, we can only calculate it and form mathematical equasions.. It's an event that has never been witnessed, but we know with almost complete certainty that it happened that way.  But the fact that we can't study it, begs the similar question how did god come to be.  And the answer to both - it just 'happened' or 'always was..'

And Christians are "delusional" to believe in something that has "always been" or "unanswerable"?
No.  They are delusional because they believe in something that has 'never been', 'never seen', 'unanswerable', and just the same as if you had less oxygen being delivered to the brain and thereby seeing a 'mirage'...
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline rockv12

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No.  They are delusional because they believe in something that has 'never been', 'never seen', 'unanswerable', and just the same as if you had less oxygen being delivered to the brain and thereby seeing a 'mirage'...

OH, kinda like evolutionists that believe in an unknown Big Bang and the material that it required to "bang"?  Unanswerable, never seen...that's the Big Bang.  And God is similar.  But with God, we have proof in creation that shows design.  We have proof in the Bible that shows God's work on earth.  Evolution has nothing but guesses.  So why are we "delusional" again?

Offline jeremy0

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No.  They are delusional because they believe in something that has 'never been', 'never seen', 'unanswerable', and just the same as if you had less oxygen being delivered to the brain and thereby seeing a 'mirage'...

OH, kinda like evolutionists that believe in an unknown Big Bang and the material that it required to "bang"?  Unanswerable, never seen...that's the Big Bang.  And God is similar.  But with God, we have proof in creation that shows design.  We have proof in the Bible that shows God's work on earth.  Evolution has nothing but guesses.  So why are we "delusional" again?
Because you say 'you have proof in creation that shows design' when you don't have it, and we actually have proof in evolution that shows a naturally occurring event(s).  You say you have 'proof in the Bible that shows God's work on earth' when actually it is your own work or other people's work on earth; and furthermore you say 'evolution has nothing but guesses' when we can now show and clearly see the dna patterns, these things make you delusional.  You ignore facts and applaud ignorance.  Arguing with you has been like talking to myself or my couch..
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Online lotanddaughters

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We have proof in the Bible that shows God's work on earth.  Evolution has nothing but guesses.  So why are we "delusional" again?

If you had proof in the Bible, the great minds of the world wouldn't be wasting time and energy trying to figure out how to make things better. We would all just be sitting back enjoying ourselves while we wait for Jesus.


Offline jeremy0

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If you had proof in the Bible, the great minds of the world wouldn't be wasting time and energy trying to figure out how to make things better. We would all just be sitting back enjoying ourselves while we wait for Jesus.
Edit: Agrees with the above*
This is exactly what a lot of christians are doing - while all the alarms are being raised by people like me all over the internet about global warming, economic disaster - people are just sitting back like cows 'partying it up until Jesus comes to save us'.  Jesus isn't going to come.  The guy is dead.  period.  Everyone that said he would come has been wrong.  He is never going to show up in my lifetime. 
Yes, we minds are wasting a lot of time and energy just to get you idiots (sorry, rockv12) to do something with yourselves and create the changes that we need to be having right now.  And instead, we're caught up in stupid arguments that you could have reasoned with yourself from all the scientific evidence and news on the internet.  Just take some time and do some browsing.  And don't worry - satan isn't going to suddenly appear and torment the living - global warming might..
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline screwtape

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hey rock. 

I find you aggravating to the point where I would like to tie you to some train tracks and stack a pile of TNT on top for good measure.  Not because you have good points and I cannot refute them.  But rather, because you are an idiot who steadfastly refuses to learn anything.  See, this part:

And God is similar. 

No.  god is not similar.  Not in any way shape or form.  When we say "I dunno" we are talking about a natural process or event we do not understand.  But we know it happened because we did the math.  When you say "I dunno", you are talking about a guy who has superpowers and he's invisible and he created everything either for us or to show off to us how awesome he is. I've bolded the ridiculous parts for you.  And you didn't do the math.  You believe it because people have said it for generation after generation.  Any similarity is strictly coincidental or fantasy.


And here, this part. 
But with God, we have proof in creation that shows design. 

You've been schooled on this about 50 times now.  Instead of accepting that there are things you just plain got wrong, you keep repeating the same retardery over and over.  This shit makes a man weary.  You are relentlessly stupid.

And this:
We have proof in the Bible that shows God's work on earth. 

No.  Here again, you stupidly compare an iron age book of tall tales and the self aggrandizing myths of the ancient hebrew people with science.  You have naked people talking to snakes.  Science has data.  I know you don't understand what that is.  But the very fact that you don't understand what data is means you have absolutely no right to express any opinion on the matter whatsoever. 


Evolution has nothing but guesses. 

No, fucko, not guesses. This is the problem. You don't know anything about it.  You get it wrong on every single level.  You are fractally wrong. I know you don't understand what that means, but too bad.  I'm not going to explain. You are too stupid to recognize how stupid you are. 

So why are we "delusional" again?

You're not.  You're an idiot.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 11:48:08 PM by screwtape »
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Offline rockv12

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No.  god is not similar.  Not in any way shape or form.  When we say "I dunno" we are talking about a natural process or event we do not understand.  But we know it happened because we did the math.  When you say "I dunno", you are talking about a guy who has superpowers and he's invisible and he created everything either for us or to show off to us how awesome he is. I've bolded the ridiculous parts for you.  And you didn't do the math.  You believe it because people have said it for generation after generation.  Any similarity is strictly coincidental or fantasy.


Sorry I'm upsetting you so.  How do you know the Big Bang happened based on math?  All I'm saying is that we both believe in something that we can't explain.  That's all.  Do you agree?

Offline rockv12

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If you had proof in the Bible, the great minds of the world wouldn't be wasting time and energy trying to figure out how to make things better. We would all just be sitting back enjoying ourselves while we wait for Jesus.

Many great minds agree with me.  You can't simply say, "Well, a lot of smart guys believe in evolution, therefore it must be true".  That's no way to decide if you are going to follow in a belief path.

Offline rockv12

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You're not.  You're an idiot.

I just got warned by admin that I am "trolling".  I have been called an idiot and much worse many times.  Is this against the forum rules?  If not, why?  How am I "trolling".  I really don't understand.  Seriously.  This is sorta bugging me.  Aren't forums for discussion?  Aren't people going to disagree on things?  What is going on?

Offline jeremy0

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Sorry I'm upsetting you so.  How do you know the Big Bang happened based on math?  All I'm saying is that we both believe in something that we can't explain.  That's all.  Do you agree?
Totally disagree.  These mathematical equasions aren't just something that somebody punched into their calculator.  They are hypotheses that are proven by the mathematical formulas that describe the phenomina.  Just having the math and translating it is proof enough for me, because I can understand both the math and the interpretation.  We don't both believe in something we can't explain.  I have fully explained in this forum the entirety of the ongoing process of the universe as it applies to physics.  It's amazing shit, really.  But you are a freaking idiot, and arguing with you is like talking to a spectre..
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline rockv12

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Totally disagree.  These mathematical equasions aren't just something that somebody punched into their calculator.  They are hypotheses that are proven by the mathematical formulas that describe the phenomina.  Just having the math and translating it is proof enough for me, because I can understand both the math and the interpretation.  We don't both believe in something we can't explain.  I have fully explained in this forum the entirety of the ongoing process of the universe as it applies to physics.  It's amazing shit, really.  But you are a freaking idiot, and arguing with you is like talking to a spectre..

Again, no answer to the question!!!  HOW does math prove the Big Bang?  You just said it does, now show HOW.  PLEASE!!!

Offline Emily

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Again, no answer to the question!!!  HOW does math prove the Big Bang?  You just said it does, now show HOW.  PLEASE!!!

Before anyone begins to show you how math does prove the big bang, do you understand the mathematical formulas used in big bang cosmology. Changes are the formulas would be longer than one comment thread could handle, then the description of the formula's would be even longer.

I think with you if someone does explain to you how mathematics proves the big bang you will just reject the comment and continue to ask the question how, so really someone explaining to you how mathematics prove the big bang would be a waste of time.

Mathematics explain a lot of shit about the universe, so if you don't believe the mathematics behind the big bang and that it proves the big bang then how is it that you believe the mathematics behind how AC power works, or how a car moves? 
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Offline jeremy0

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I bet this person thinks E = mc^2 doesn't know that m = c^2/E nor does the person understand how to calculate the 'resting mass' of particle physics.  And these are the most basic equasions.  Actually, you'll find that this is one of the most important equasions, due to the fact that even Plank's (sp?) equasions on electricity and voltage are brutally similar in nature... ...

The thing I didn't understand is I thought also that 'c' could 'predict' things in natural occurrence.  All I needed to do was go to a physics forum to learn that it is nothing more than a conversion equasion from mass to energy, or visa-versa.  In that, I meant c = sqrt(E/m).  That form of the equasion doesn't actually mean anything; but had I been right, it would have been the 'magical golden bar' of chemistry that we were waiting for all this time....

Edit: If you want to understand why Einstein was saying certain things, you just need to understand his equasions.  For example, interesting stuff happens when you plug in numbers to these equasions.  For example, let c = 0.  Interesting shit.  Now all of a sudden, nothing exists.  Also, changing c in any way changes everything in nature.  Very intriguing.  Indeed, reality is an illusion.  Indeed, time is an illusion.  Very cool stuff...

For example, Einstein had arguments with peers over whether or not a black hole could be created.  Why is that?  It's because according to his equasions, if enough energy is expended you *should* be able to change one element to another.  But, this could cause a chain-reaction, and potentially lead to a very heavy element, in effect, creating a black hole.  However, the idea is that the energy required to do this is equivalent to a super-massive sun collapsing into iron fusion, meaning that for man this feat is impossible..

Time is an illusion if you study general relativity enough.  That's been proven by satellites - the fact that we have to alter their clocks to make it like it is on earth.  Did you know that standing next to the great pyramids causes time to slow down, just due to their mass? 

There's some really interesting stuff in physics if you can just understand it.  Steven Hawkings does a great job of 'dumbing it down' for you.  It's great.  We are so close to understanding the entirety of the universe, just through mathematics.  Amazing.  I feel proud to know what I know.  I'm immensely proud that we humans have come to know so much.  It's miraculous...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 01:03:33 AM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Online Azdgari

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I just got warned by admin that I am "trolling".  I have been called an idiot and much worse many times.  Is this against the forum rules?  If not, why?  How am I "trolling".  I really don't understand.  Seriously.  This is sorta bugging me.  Aren't forums for discussion?  Aren't people going to disagree on things?  What is going on?

Calling you an idiot is not trolling.  Screwtape is expressing frustration over your expressed idiocy.  If you would not like people to comment on your idiocy, then it behooves you not to behave in an idiotic manner.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Historicity

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Ask anyone in here how the hummingbird evolved ...  Nobody seems to know.

I already explained that to you.  You responded by moving the goalposts and wondering how birds evolved wings.  That and making the idiotic statement that hummingbirds are supersonic.  BTW, a hummingbird flies at a top speed of 38 mph.  The speed of sound is 768 mph.  That is 1126 fps or 13,512 inches per second.  A hummingbird can flap its wings at 80 per second.  If it is about 4" long that's 320 inches per second.


« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 07:58:14 AM by Historicity »