Author Topic: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you  (Read 3943 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2012, 02:45:09 PM »
Gotta stand by my previous position (as no evidence to contradict has been presented) that ALL sexuality (that is how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli) be it 'homo', hetero', 'bi', 'a', etc., is a choice.

There is very little that can be done to influence or change our individual sexual stimuli making said stimuli something that is for the most part fixed though not totally immutable.

If minds and eyes were truly opened and truth were to be told, I would bet that what we would discover was that the overwhelming majority of the human population has been funneled by various means towards a sexual orientation. Were the funnels to be removed, what we would likely realize is that many, if not most human creatures are affected by natural bisexual stimuli, meaning that there is something about human beings that naturally attracts us to each other regardless of sex/gender.

A person can stop being homo, hetero, and even asexual if they choose to do so. What they will likely struggle with is the effect of certain stimuli on them. That is what is difficult if not impossible to change as it is hard to stop liking something, especially if that something or even the thought of it is something we find pleasurable and desirable. Despite this, there is the possibilty that a person can condition themselves to stop liking something they once had a great affinity or love for. (I stopped liking catfish after going all Leviticus diet back in 2006. I started eating shell fish and pork sausage again, but I can no longer stand catfish, a food I once loved. Go figure that.)
That said, I do not see any evidence that a person can make themselve like something they genuinely don't like unless the person's dislike is based on bad information. 

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 02:52:34 PM »
Gotta stand by my previous position (as no evidence to contradict has been presented)
<snip>

Liar. Plenty of evidence was presented. You just ignored it and redefined sexuality to suit your argument.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 03:02:37 PM »
Gotta stand by my previous position (as no evidence to contradict has been presented)
<snip> that ALL sexuality (that is how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli) be it 'homo', hetero', 'bi', 'a', etc., is a choice.

Liar. Plenty of evidence was presented. You just ignored it and redefined sexuality to suit your argument.

Nice snip Luc.

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 03:05:51 PM »
Nice snip Luc.

Liar. Plenty of evidence was presented. You just ignored it and redefined sexuality to suit your argument.

Nice read, Truth OT.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 03:10:45 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 03:19:51 PM »
Gotta stand by my previous position (as no evidence to contradict has been presented)
<snip> that ALL sexuality (that is how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli) be it 'homo', hetero', 'bi', 'a', etc., is a choice.

Liar. Plenty of evidence was presented. You just ignored it and redefined sexuality to suit your argument.

Nice snip Luc.

He's entirely right though.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 03:21:27 PM »
TOT's redefinition of sexuality is useful for the purpose of promoting bigotry against those with different desires from his own.  Don't try to deprive him of that tool.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 03:21:57 PM »
Nice snip Luc.

Liar. Plenty of evidence was presented. You just ignored it and redefined sexuality to suit your argument.

Nice read, Truth OT.

Not exactly Luc. What I did was focus on the fact that sexuality is related to one's BEHAVIOR. See http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexuality Merriam-Webster that talks about sexuality as the condition of HAVING sex, sexual ACTIVITY, the EXPRESSION of sexual receptivity or interest, and in general the quality or state of BEING sexual.
In other words, I have harped on the fact that there is NO SEXUALITY without behavior, activity, or expression. With that said, I can then make the declaration that sexuality IS in fact a choice for the simple fact that we can choose how we behave, we can choose what activities we involve ourselves in, and we can choose how we express our desires.

Offline Dante

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 03:26:51 PM »
Gotta stand by my previous position (as no evidence to contradict has been presented) that ALL sexuality (that is how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli) be it 'homo', hetero', 'bi', 'a', etc., is a choice.

I disagree. Solely based on my own (I'm still unable to read the thoughts of others, dammit) anecdotal feelings of desire, I cannot choose to be turned on by a man, nor can I choose to be turned off by certain women. Sometimes, I wish I could, but that's another story for another time. Suffice it to say, that certain stirring in my loins when I look at the carnal beauty of certain women has gotten me in some amount of trouble on occasion.

Quote
There is very little that can be done to influence or change our individual sexual stimuli making said stimuli something that is for the most part fixed though not totally immutable.

Perhaps. Though I don't know that the changes could be brought on by choice. Why do you think it so?

Quote
A person can stop being homo, hetero, and even asexual if they choose to do so. What they will likely struggle with is the effect of certain stimuli on them. That is what is difficult if not impossible to change as it is hard to stop liking something, especially if that something or even the thought of it is something we find pleasurable and desirable. Despite this, there is the possibilty that a person can condition themselves to stop liking something they once had a great affinity or love for. (I stopped liking catfish after going all Leviticus diet back in 2006. I started eating shell fish and pork sausage again, but I can no longer stand catfish, a food I once loved. Go figure that.)
That said, I do not see any evidence that a person can make themselve like something they genuinely don't like unless the person's dislike is based on bad information.

Why can you not make yourself like catfish? After all, it's your choice.

Edit; After reading TOT's post above this one, I should make it clear I'm responding to the bolded part I quote.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 03:35:51 PM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Alzael

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2012, 03:27:54 PM »
Not exactly Luc. What I did was focus on the fact that sexuality is related to one's BEHAVIOR. See http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexuality Merriam-Webster that talks about sexuality as the condition of HAVING sex, sexual ACTIVITY, the EXPRESSION of sexual receptivity or interest, and in general the quality or state of BEING sexual.
In other words, I have harped on the fact that there is NO SEXUALITY without behavior, activity, or expression. With that said, I can then make the declaration that sexuality IS in fact a choice for the simple fact that we can choose how we behave, we can choose what activities we involve ourselves in, and we can choose how we express our desires.

That's what he said, Truth. You redefined what it meant and then ignored all the contrary evidence.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2012, 03:37:54 PM »
Gotta stand by my previous position (as no evidence to contradict has been presented) that ALL sexuality (that is how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli) be it 'homo', hetero', 'bi', 'a', etc., is a choice.

So, how would you go about making yourself a homosexual?  Are you saying that if you blew a dude you would be homosexual even though you would find it revolting?  Or are you saying eventually, if you smoked enough cock, you would learn to dig it?  Do you think that is a"lifestyle" you could get used to?  Do you think other homosexuals would have a similar perspective? 
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2012, 03:43:07 PM »

I disagree. Solely based on my own (I'm still unable to read the thoughts of others, dammit) anecdotal feelings of desire, I cannot choose to be turned on by a man, nor can I choose to be turned off by certain women. Sometimes, I wish I could, but that's another story for another time. Suffice it to say, that certain stirring in my loins when I look at the carnal beauty of certain women has gotten me in some amount of trouble on occasion.

I think we are missing each other Dante. What I am saying is that "how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli" is what our sexuality is and that is a choice.

Perhaps. Though I don't know that the changes could be brought on by choice. Why do you think it so? .

Which changes are you refering to? Changes in behavior are brought on by choice while changes in what we like or desire generally have nothing to do with choice.

Why can you not make yourself like catfish? After all, it's your choice.

I never said I couldn't make myself like catfish. I simply said I no longer do like catfish. When I eat taste catfish today I have to fight a gag reflex, but I suppose if I force feed myself catfish over and over I could possibly acquire a taste for it again. That, after all is how many people come to like/acquire a taste for things like beer.

And D, I never said that a person chooses what stimulates them (e.i. what they like). I simply pointed out that people choice how to respond to stimuli. Remember, I said these things:

Quote
There is very little that can be done to influence or change our individual sexual stimuli making said stimuli something that is for the most part fixed though not totally immutable.

and

Quote
I do not see any evidence that a person can make themselves like something they genuinely don't like unless the person's dislike is based on bad information.

Offline Dante

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2012, 03:46:52 PM »
I think we are missing each other Dante. What I am saying is that "how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli" is what our sexuality is and that is a choice.

You're correct in that I was missing you, until I re-read your responses to Luc. I've already edited my post to reflect that.

Uncle screwtape's post would be my follow up.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Dante

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2012, 03:55:13 PM »
Follow up post part deaux:


I think we are missing each other Dante. What I am saying is that "how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli" is what our sexuality is and that is a choice.

That is a....strange use of the word "sexuality". And this is where you're running into resistance from everyone here. Sure, anyone can "act" sexual with anyone, but that act doesn't define one's sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is, so far as anyone can tell, not a choice.

Quote
Changes in behavior are brought on by choice while changes in what we like or desire generally have nothing to do with choice.

Ah, that's more like it. Behaviour and desire are two totally seperate things. Sometimes, it seems like you are conflating the two. Stop doing that.



Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2012, 03:56:26 PM »

So, how would you go about making yourself a homosexual?  Are you saying that if you blew a dude you would be homosexual even though you would find it revolting?  Or are you saying eventually, if you smoked enough cock, you would learn to dig it?  Do you think that is a"lifestyle" you could get used to?  Do you think other homosexuals would have a similar perspective?

How would one go about making themselves sexual? By engaging in sexual activity would be the answer I'd give. With that said, in my opinion one makes themselves homosexual by engaging in same-sex sexuality and other behaviors associated with whatever type of homosexuality is employed.

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2012, 03:59:17 PM »
and other behaviors associated with whatever type of homosexuality is employed.

So if one falls under a stereotype, one automatically belongs to the group stereotyped as having that behaviour?
No wonder you think sexuality is a choice...
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Offline Alzael

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2012, 04:10:03 PM »

How would one go about making themselves sexual? By engaging in sexual activity would be the answer I'd give. With that said, in my opinion one makes themselves homosexual by engaging in same-sex sexuality and other behaviors associated with whatever type of homosexuality is employed.

And this is why you keep failing. Because you are redefining what homosexual is by conflating being a homosexual with acting like one.

You are confusing a form of behaviour, with something biological.

If I dress in japanese style clothing, talk only in an Osakan dialect and eat sushi, that does not make me japanese. Unless we go by your definitions.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2012, 04:10:15 PM »
and other behaviors associated with whatever type of homosexuality is employed.

So if one falls under a stereotype, one automatically belongs to the group stereotyped as having that behaviour?
No wonder you think sexuality is a choice...

'and' is a conjunction that is famous for combining thoughts. I never said stereotype = group. I said engaging in the behavior that defines the group is the identifier in this specific case. You inserted the idea of a stereotype, not me.   

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2012, 04:12:16 PM »
'and' is a conjunction that is famous for combining thoughts. I never said stereotype = group. I said engaging in the behavior that defines the group is the identifier in this specific case. You inserted the idea of a stereotype, not me.   

I tried to be subtle about showing it, but now I see that was a mistake.
There is no behaviour that defines sexuality, only an involuntary reflex - sexual attraction.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2012, 04:14:14 PM »

You are confusing a form of behaviour, with something biological.


Except there is no proof that hetero, homo, etc. sexual orientations are biological in nature. To say for a fact that sexual orientation is disingenious and NOT the fact that many would claim it to be.

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2012, 04:18:29 PM »
Except there is no proof that hetero, homo, etc. sexual orientations are biological in nature.

You are confusing "evidence" with "proof", but let's ignore that for now.
Did you know that kids have an increasing chance of being homosexual depending on when they were born relatively to their siblings? If you have more brothers, there's a higher chance of you being homosexual.
Source.
EDIT: I suggest you do some research on this stuff, Truth OT. It may surprise you[1], but bigots who claim that sexuality is a choice are liars and idiots.
 1. I'm being sarcastic here, not calling you an idiot.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:28:17 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2012, 04:31:09 PM »

Except there is no proof that hetero, homo, etc. sexual orientations are biological in nature. To say for a fact that sexual orientation is disingenious and NOT the fact that many would claim it to be.

Actually there is. As was pointed out before, you ignore it and have redefined what sexual orientation is and means, which I note you didn't address when I pointed that out.

http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k78405&pageid=icb.page414413

From Wiki "No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[10] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[11] "

"Research has identified several biological factors which may be related to the development of sexual orientation, including genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure. No single controlling cause has been identified, and research is continuing in this area.[56]

The prevailing view is that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice. That is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or asexual. There is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that early childhood experiences, parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation. However, studies do find that as aspects of sexuality expression have an experiential basis, parental attitudes towards a particular sexual orientation may affect how their children experiment with behaviours related to a certain orientation. [7][8][35][57][58]"
"

From the AAP

"Sexual orientation is not synonymous with sexual activity or sexual behavior (the way one chooses to express one’s sexual feelings)."

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;113/6/1827

There's all sorts of evidence, if you actually look for it and use the words the way they are meant to. The issue is that you don't. You've created your own artificial definitions and are trying to apply them.
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Offline Dante

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2012, 04:35:29 PM »

You are confusing a form of behaviour, with something biological.


Except there is no proof that hetero, homo, etc. sexual orientations are biological in nature. To say for a fact that sexual orientation is disingenious and NOT the fact that many would claim it to be.

Ahem.

Changes in behavior are brought on by choice while changes in what we like or desire generally have nothing to do with choice.

Sexual orientation is the desire, not the act. This is not rocket surgery.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2012, 04:37:59 PM »

Sexual orientation is the desire, not the act. This is not rocket surgery.

It's astounding how often this has to be repeated to him, isn't it?
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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2012, 04:38:28 PM »
Truth OT, I've been meaning to ask you this, but I forgot in the other thread:
When is the cut-off point? When does one "become" asexual after they stop performing sexual acts with another individual? What about virgins who have had romantic relationships? Are they asexual?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:42:29 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2012, 05:45:21 PM »
A seemingly definitive declaration is made "The prevailing view is that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice. That is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or asexual." is if this has been proven, then the very same wiki article goes on to say:
Quote
Current scientific investigation seeks to find biological explanations for the adoption of a particular sexual orientation. As yet there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for human sexual orientation although scientific studies have found a number of statistical biological differences between gay people and heterosexuals, which may result from the same underlying cause as sexual orientation itself.

That isn't exactly being honest, totally forthcoming with the facts, and upfront. What it is seems more like when people have a preconception and try to fit the data into confirming that preconception. Sometimes saying, "I don't know" is best. And in the case of the origins of sexual orientation, we honestly can only at this point say, "we don't know."

Again, according to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
Various studies point to different, even conflicting positions, such as a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[1] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment,[2] or no genetic influence.

-----
It would seem most reasonable to conclude at this point that humans have a predisposition towards sexuality and that there is a "trigger" or there are "triggers" of some sort that we have yet to be able to positively identify, that funnels individuals towards a particular sexual orientation.

The control of the direction of an individual's conscious erotic desire (which is basically how sexual orientation is defined), has NOT proven to be something individuals can influence or change by any scientific means. My issue is not with the idea stated above. What I take issue with is sexually identifying individuals based on this factor moreso than identifying individuals based on the sexual behavior that they exhibit in the shared reality that we know as the real world. If makes very little practical sense to weight orientation above actual sexuality.

In addition, I've lost my train of thought.............will continue in a minute.

Offline Dante

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2012, 06:16:17 PM »
TOT,

While you collect your trainwreck of thought, consider this; if we, as you correctly claim, don't fully understand what the trigger may be, why is that you dismiss biology as a potential trigger?

As far as identifying individuals, I've always been predisposed to let the individual do that for me. Dude tells me he's gay, I take him at his word. Of course, when Ted Haggard tells me he's straight,  then bangs a male hooker, I have no choice but to believe he's lying, either to me or himself. But make no mistake, that does not validate your point. You can label anyone however you see fit, but that doesn't make your assertion true.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2012, 06:27:34 PM »
Truth, here's what I'm seeing here.

Everytime someone provides evidence against you , you come up with some way to dismiss it (we'll leave out whether it's justified or not for the moment).

What I'm not seeing here, is you providing even the slightest bit of evidence to support your own position. All we have from you is a series of nothing more than assertions based on your opinion (which also relies on a self-made definition), and you attacking all of the evidence that everyone else has presented.

I also see that you only addressed the Wiki article as opposed to everything else presented by myself and others.

So the bottom line is. Your idea is based on nothing more than an opinion, and the fact that you are very selective about the arguments that you address. You have nothing, less than nothing actually.


That isn't exactly being honest, totally forthcoming with the facts, and upfront. What it is seems more like when people have a preconception and try to fit the data into confirming that preconception. Sometimes saying, "I don't know" is best. And in the case of the origins of sexual orientation, we honestly can only at this point say, "we don't know."


It seems that you're not exactly being honest. You're the one redefining words to suit your own needs and selectively addressing arguments. Need I remind you that your entire position amounts to nothing more than a baseless opinion. So trying to criticize the article for it's facts is more than a little hypocritical. Especially when the only criticism you really mustered is that it should have just said "we don't know".

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Offline Alzael

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2012, 06:38:09 PM »
And in the case of the origins of sexual orientation, we honestly can only at this point say, "we don't know."


Also Truth, as another point in regards to honesty. You aren't saying "I don't know".

You are saying:

"What I am saying is that "how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli" is what our sexuality is and that is a choice."

"Gotta stand by my previous position (as no evidence to contradict has been presented) that ALL sexuality (that is how we act out our sexual desires or respond to our individual sexual stimuli) be it 'homo', hetero', 'bi', 'a', etc., is a choice. "

You are stating your opinion as a fact. At no point did you say "I don't know, but I think this."

So please stop talking about honesty. It rings very hollow.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: To be or not to be homosexual ....making the correct choice for you
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2012, 09:36:20 PM »
It would appear that you are missing a vital fact in regards to my honestly hear, and that is this: As it pertains to the origin of sexual orientation, I am saying "I don't know." I am simply saying that regardless of one's erotic desire (sexual orientation), a person can choose how they respond to those mysterious desires. I state as much because I fail to see how the factually of that declaration can be disputed.

Dante asked "consider this; if we, as you correctly claim, don't fully understand what the trigger may be, why is that you dismiss biology as a potential trigger?"
My answer is that I don't totally dismiss biology as a trigger, but neither do I affirm it as many rush to do. If we ever get all the facts, my bet is that Freud's idea that we are innately bisexual will prevail.