Author Topic: Righteous Abortion: How Conservative Christians Promote What They Claim to Hate  (Read 3301 times)

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Offline kin hell

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Online jaimehlers

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One of my brothers has a daughter (he and his wife separated, he has custody via agreement).  He lives with my parents, and my parents are the ones who do much of the actual rearing.  I come over on occasion (every couple of weeks) and help out by watching her and playing with her.

It really does make a difference to have other adults involved.  That's one of the reasons that the modern tendency to put older people into retirement homes is kind of stupid, because they generally have a wealth of child-care experience, and they could really go a long way towards improving the quality of life for these children, and keeping them from being dependent on the TV as a babysitter.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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I apologize for abandoning thread. It's been a hectic week and my wife has sorta lost interest. I'll get 'er back but it will be a couple of weeks because I am going out of town.
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Offline kindred

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Rather than helping the idiots that make stupid decisions, I'd rather allocate the resources to the people that arise above mediocrity.
Kindred, I started working on this, decided not to post because this debate never ends, then decided to go ahead.  For myself, being of average intelligence (mediocre), I guess I would be out of your "most deserving places."

Why would their suffering persuade me to help them? As a kid, I had: an abusive father, abusive brother, an absent mother, babysitters that starved me AND the normal mediocre people despised and bullied me for being above average and upper middle class. I just want to spread the suffering around.

Also, why would those people be prioritized over you if you are above average? Their neediness doesn't change the fact that you will still be more deserving. If you entered a competition , won and the sponsors gave the prize to a person that needs it more than you, wouldn't you be outraged?
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Offline Azdgari

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Why would their suffering persuade me to help them? As a kid, I had: an abusive father, abusive brother, an absent mother, babysitters that starved me AND the normal mediocre people despised and bullied me for being above average and upper middle class. I just want to spread the suffering around.

To the bolded:  Compassion, and a desire not to have un-helped needy people around you.
To the underlined:  You're an abhorrent person.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline shnozzola

That's one of the reasons that the modern tendency to put older people into retirement homes is kind of stupid......
This topic desperately needs to be a new thread.
Why would their suffering persuade me to help them? As a kid, I had: an abusive father, abusive brother, an absent mother, babysitters that starved me AND the normal mediocre people despised and bullied me for being above average and upper middle class. I just want to spread the suffering around.
Hey, Kindred - I was lucky with my childhood, I'm truely sorry your's was not good.  You are not alone.  Parents need to understand the lasting effects of what happens when kids are 5.  If you don't mind, tell me more about your abusive father.  On the other hand, if your not into it, fine.
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Offline kindred

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Why would their suffering persuade me to help them? As a kid, I had: an abusive father, abusive brother, an absent mother, babysitters that starved me AND the normal mediocre people despised and bullied me for being above average and upper middle class. I just want to spread the suffering around.

To the bolded:  Compassion, and a desire not to have un-helped needy people around you.
To the underlined:  You're an abhorrent person.

Why? People all around me do the same. The only difference is that they don't do it out of malice. Most people do it unwittingly or have some sort of internal rationalization. What makes me worse than my neighbor who covers up for his son when he goes out beating people up? Unlike that mother, I don't pretend I'm not out for myselfl by oozing and gushing out oodles of self-serving bias.

I tried to be good but theres only so much a person can take. There comes a point in time when I realized the people I was helping were douchebags. Stupid, malicious, unwitting or purposeful douchebags, it makes no matter. The paradoxical commandments were in full effect. The world is unfair and there is nothing I can do about except make it work for me. If the world is unfair, might as well make unfair in such a way that benefits me.
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Offline jetson

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Why? People all around me do the same. The only difference is that they don't do it out of malice. Most people do it unwittingly or have some sort of internal rationalization.

Could you be overlooking something more overwhelming and obvious than your own personal views and experiences?  This is a very, very big world, with lots and lots of people in it.  Where have you traveled?  What areas of the world have you spent time in, and gotten to know the people?  Could it be that your current view is biased?

Offline Azdgari

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Kindred, maybe your father and brother were just "trying to spread the suffering around".

Understandable motivation, from your perspective, eh?  To be consistent, you should be sympathetic to his desire to cause you suffering.
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Offline kindred

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Why? People all around me do the same. The only difference is that they don't do it out of malice. Most people do it unwittingly or have some sort of internal rationalization.

Could you be overlooking something more overwhelming and obvious than your own personal views and experiences?  This is a very, very big world, with lots and lots of people in it.  Where have you traveled?  What areas of the world have you spent time in, and gotten to know the people?  Could it be that your current view is biased?

Bold part.

Also, optimism bias. Take that away and the world stops being bright.

@Azdgari

Why should I be sympathetic? I've found out that I can't win by being good. I'm just leveling the playing field.

In a war there are no rules only consequences. I've just discovered that sometimes douchebaggerys advantages outweigh the consequences.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Offline kindred

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^

All man made rules, rarely enforced, broken whenever the situation is dire enough or one side is too powerful for anybody to punish.

The very existence of snipers are a violation or rules of engagement. Medics fire weapons and are still protected by the very rules they broke. Why do they break said rules? Because the advantage given by doing so far outweigh the consequences. If the medic doesn't make with the supressive fire he dies and what help will the ROE be if you're dead?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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^

All man made rules,

Sorry dude...the goal post is over here

In a war there are no rules only consequences.

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Offline kindred

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^

All man made rules,

Sorry dude...the goal post is over here

In a war there are no rules only consequences.

Do I really need to write that it isn't literal? Most soundbytes/qoutables are condensations of long thought. It'd be pretty hard if I had to explain everything thoroughly. We would need much much longer posts.

Case in point: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." It means, there is no objective truth to morality. Therefore there is no evil. Therefore you are allowed to do anything for your goal. It promotes the ubermensch Or if you really want to be lowbrow and/or lower the word count: "Ubermensch!"

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Offline shnozzola

Unlike that mother, I don't pretend I'm not out for myselfl by oozing and gushing out oodles of self-serving bias.
What Mother?
I've just discovered that sometimes douchebaggerys advantages outweigh the consequences.
The irony of life, especially for an atheist that has realized there are no consequences – plays right into the theist’s views.  So who do you think was of more value to society, ubermensch Mandela, or ubermensch Hitler?  Or are you sticking to the “no consequences, no good, no evil, no punishment (society never did matter)” idea.  What ARE your goals then, Kindred?  What benefits you?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Kindred sounds like he promotes the kind of nihilism we always say atheism does not necessarily lead to. Kindred and I see the world so differently. I also had a very abusive childhood and have had some pretty serious difficulties in my life. But I have never been inspired to "spread the suffering around" or to see life as a war with no rules.

As an adult, I have been an inner city social worker and did overseas development in poor countries. It was hard and dangerous work. I did not get paid well for helping other people, and some of them were "undeserving". (Some of them were goddamn saints who put me to shame--they should live like kings and queens instead of in poverty and squalor.)

I am now a professor at a college that serves working class students. I still believe in making the world a better place. My heroes are Nelson Mandela, Mohandas Gandhi and Jimmy Carter. (And Robert Downey Jr.)

But I am not particularly "good"-- I am antisocial, do not suffer fools, am estranged from most of my family, I like really bad jokes,  want legal prostitution and drugs, and as a hardcore sinful atheist I am going straight to hell.

But before I go to hell, I am going to do what I can to leave my corner of the world a bit better than I found it. And I am a fairly happy person. ;D

But everyone has to find their own way.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Do I really need to write that it isn't literal?

If you want people to understand what you actually mean instead of letting them form some vague self projection about your words then, yes.

Quote
It'd be pretty hard if I had to explain everything thoroughly.

So you are lazy.

Quote
"Ubermensch!"

ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now I get it. I'm guessing you're a fan of Voltaire also? Do you have any thoughts of your own or do you just cherry pick from the most inhumane and egotistical philosophers you can find?
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Offline kindred

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What's with the violent reactions? Lots of people do what I do. Lots of people do even worse. The only difference is the malice involved. Most employers overwork and underpay great employees by being ignorant of what they're doing. I'm doing the same level of bad except I take the time to enjoy it. Why am so much more "evil?"
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Offline Azdgari

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What's with the violent reactions? Lots of people do what I do. Lots of people do even worse. The only difference is the malice involved. Most employers overwork and underpay great employees by being ignorant of what they're doing. I'm doing the same level of bad except I take the time to enjoy it. Why am so much more "evil?"

Because you're deliberately trying to "spread around the suffering" as you put it.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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What's with the violent reactions? Lots of people do what I do. Lots of people do even worse. The only difference is the malice involved. Most employers overwork and underpay great employees by being ignorant of what they're doing. I'm doing the same level of bad except I take the time to enjoy it. Why am so much more "evil?"

Nothing violent is happening. I haven't even seen so much as a threat. I will tell you this much, if you were a true sociopath you wouldn't feel the need to defend your point of view on a piddly little forum such as this.

The fact that your sole defense is your sense of persecution and "every one else is doing it" excuse exposes the wall you have constructed to protect your over sensitive child like ego.   

There really is too much to get into at the moment so I'll just leave this here for you to think about. I'll check back in a couple of weeks. In the mean time, I want you to think about the golden rule and what it means to you.
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Offline screwtape

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kindred,

You exhibit disturbing signs of various personality disorders.  Narcissism, borderline, antisocial, schizoid, etc.  I'm pretty sure if Gnu were around, he'd agree.

Seek professional help.  Seriously.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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^ I think that's called being a teenager.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline screwtape

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ah.  I see.
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Online jaimehlers

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Why would their suffering persuade me to help them? As a kid, I had: an abusive father, abusive brother, an absent mother, babysitters that starved me AND the normal mediocre people despised and bullied me for being above average and upper middle class. I just want to spread the suffering around.

Also, why would those people be prioritized over you if you are above average? Their neediness doesn't change the fact that you will still be more deserving. If you entered a competition , won and the sponsors gave the prize to a person that needs it more than you, wouldn't you be outraged?
Honestly, kindred, the fact that your early life sucked is no reason to "spread the suffering around", as you put it.  If you spread the suffering around, if you hurt other people because you were hurt in the past, then what are you doing but helping to perpetuate the problem?  Misery shared is misery doubled, or worse; you don't stop hurting any less than if you did nothing (in fact, you might start hurting more as a result), and you make those others hurt just as badly as you did.  The only thing you might get out of it is a callous enjoyment of watching others suffer, to become what hurt you.

I am not trying to dismiss what you went through, or pretend living through it wasn't an awful experience.  But you need to understand that you won't overcome those horrible memories by inflicting that same pain on others.  The only way to overcome them is to rise above them.  I know, because I had to suffer some of the things you did, and some things you appear to have been lucky enough to dodge.  This is not about which of us had it worse, though.  It's about confronting that part of yourself, the wounded and scarred part which has been hurting and festering so long that you don't even notice the pain anymore, and dealing with it.  You're the only one who can, because it is just as much you as any other part of yourself.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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^ I think that's called being a teenager.

You know, if I still maintained the point of view I had as a teen I would be a very dangerous person. Speaking of raging hormones the Hormone Research Institute recently discovered how to make a hormone....don't pay her.[1]
 1. it's a phonetic joke
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I can't decide what kind of karma to give you for that awful joke.

Offline Astreja

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I had a rather unpleasant time of it in My pre-teen years, no thanks to being outnumbered 25:1 by bullies and mockers.  I never for a moment thought it gave Me the slightest excuse to respond in kind, which is precisely why there are no news reports of Me wreaking havoc from a bell tower and then offing Myself.

Kindred, two wrongs don't make a right.  If you want happiness, you aren't going to find it by becoming the same thing you hate.
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Offline kindred

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I had a rather unpleasant time of it in My pre-teen years, no thanks to being outnumbered 25:1 by bullies and mockers.  I never for a moment thought it gave Me the slightest excuse to respond in kind, which is precisely why there are no news reports of Me wreaking havoc from a bell tower and then offing Myself.

Kindred, two wrongs don't make a right.  If you want happiness, you aren't going to find it by becoming the same thing you hate.

Responding in kind isn't murdering them. Just breaking them apart mentally.

I've never had it that rough. I never LET it get that worse. The most outnumbered I got in high-school was 3:1. I beat them physically and mentally untill they were broken and were essentially doormats. I just insulted them with the truth(they were problem children with failing grades, broken problems and were tossed around to different family members that would hopefully change them for the better).

Respond in kind. If you want the world to be better, than beat the assholes to the ground and make their life miserable. I was never able to make the guys that bullied me kill themselves but I was CLOSE. I just gave in and pitied them when I was close. In the end we became friends. They're still assholes to this day. Except since they were my friends, I was okay with that.\

There are three assholes alive in this world because of ME...
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Offline Asmoday

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Kindred, the basic problem with your approach is that it does absolutely nothing to make life better. Not for you and not for anybody else.

You say that others behaving like assholes is reason enough to be an a**hole yourself. But that will only make your own life even more miserable in the end. Sure, you're on top right now. Until someone comes along who won't put up with your shit and gives you the exact same treatment that you're boasting about in the above post. Of course that will make you complain even more how the world is run by assholes, who beat you down, and why there's no reason not to be one yourself.

Congratulations, you're creating your own little circle of continued misery.


Responding in kind as you did, does nothing to make the world better. As you said, the guys you beat down are still assholes. Nothing changed except that you've joined their ranks.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 10:55:13 AM by Asmoday »
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