The World would Be Better Off Without Religion

[riley2112]

Theist= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
Athesit= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
 

I can see how theist may be wrong about so many things. And I would not be surprised , as more information become available that religion maychange or a better word, evolve into a less violent belief that becomes what god meant it to be in the first place.

But I can also see how atheist may be wrong about so many things. The more you believe your beliefs are the only ones to have , the more you should look at what you believe. I have tried to learn about your beliefs, Here is what I have found.

As long as I start understanding your concern you seem to be nice , helpful. trying with respect to teach me your beliefs, and it is a belief. But as soon as I make any statement about still believing in a god of any kind you turn on me like wild dogs. Please understand I am not talking about all . but most that I have come in contact with.

Velkyn you seem to be becoming more angry as time goes on. I am concerned for you , not in your beliefs but you as a person. If I was to point to one thing that would keep me from becoming an atheist it the anger    I have encounter while being on this forum. The hate that you have for the thoughts of others is wrong in itself. I do not want to have any beliefs that promote that kind of anger at anyone. I think it is a shame. It was not the facts that made me think you were wrong , it is the way you tell them that makes you wrong. It does not sound like you do not believe in a god ,it just sounds like you are really pissed off at him.

The same people are on here all of the time. You make you little jokes about god and the people that believe in him . When some one of faith come here to talk, Granted some of them are fucking crazy,. You stop your little jokes and like a pack of wild dogs rush in to see if you can make the believer feel like a fool. The only problem with that is the fact that , they put up with you shit, you abuse , you total lack of respect and still try to tell you about why they feel the way they do. You response is , you are stupid , you are not thinking. When in fact it is YOU that have lost the idea of what is going on out here in the world we live. YOU keep on tell us all what a motherfucking evil being god is and we will keep on wishing that whatever anger is deep down inside of you will somehow , some day let you live in peace.

This post should keep most of you busy making fun of it for days now. I have learn many things on this forum , some I thank you for and some that just makes me feel sorry for you . I do hope all goes well for you and yours. I truly mean that. Good-bye and take care.


paragraphs created by Screwtape.

[Hatter23]

Theist= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
Athesit= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
 

Santa Believer= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
Santa Non- Believer= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.

Belief has no bearing as to whether something actually exists. There is no equivalency between the believer and the non believer. As to "the pack of wild dogs" statement; first reality does not give a crap about your feelings and second....and this is important....differentiate between the behavoir in this forum and the behavior in Indonesia.



and the condecending last words before you go.....well....I thought you were above that. I stand corrected.

[One Above All]

Theist= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
Atheist= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.

If this part of your post were taken literally, you'd be correct. You could replace "Theist" and "Atheist" with "Human A" and "Human B" and you'd still be correct.
However, since you most likely mean belief about the existence of deities, you're wrong. Here's a quick fix:
Theist: If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong, evil and will be tortured for eternity.
Atheist: If you don't share in my lack of belief you are wrong. Here's why.

[monkeymind]

Riley:

But I can also see how atheist may be wrong about so many things. The more you believe your beliefs are the only ones to have , the more you should look at what you believe.

Atheism is ONLY about non-belief. I hope you have learned that much in your time here.

Atheists can have beliefs, but I'm wondering if you can give specific examples of what beliefs you are talking about?

[jaimehlers]

so, what does velkyn probably mean?

That should have been "probably doesn't mean".

[riley2112]

Theist = human 1
Atheist = human 2
deities= no concern ,just beliefs in general.
 and monkey , atheist is a belief that theist are wrong. And please understand I am not saying that is a bad thing. Let's take god, any god out of it. It works the same is I was to argue about decaf coffee on real coffee.
and hatter; reality does not give a crap about your feelings ? It shouldn't , but you as another human should. And as for condescending last words , and you thinking I was above that , YOU know I am above that. Those words was not intended as hurtful. They were truth. You guy will have a laugh out of it and that is OK. You know it and so do I. I am not saying your message is wrong , but you may want to reconsider how you broadcast it. What is that old saying more fly with honey than vinegar. Come on , just once let a believer leave the forum without being mad at him or thinking that he feels you are evil. I feel you all are more than likely good people with good reasons for why you think the way you do. Why can't you give me the same courtesy. I am glad I came here. I am a better person and better thinker because of it ,It has caused me to question my own faith and change some beliefs that I once accepted without question, because of you and people like you, I will never again accept information as being true without question , from you or anyone else , and for that I thank you. You and this forum has helped me more than you know. So again , I ask, why the anger? It is not warranted. And not returned to you . I hope you do not think of me as one of those real nuts I have seen on this forum. That in itself would make me sad.
I do hope that your lifes are good and you are happy more than you are sad. I really do mean that. You know I do. Or at least you could have faith that I do.  come on guys . that was funny. Again , take care, I will stop in one day and see what you are all up to.

[velkyn]

Theist= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
Athesit= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
I can see how theist may be wrong about so many things. And I would not be surprised , as more information become available that religion maychange or a better word, evolve into a less violent belief that becomes what god meant it to be in the first place.

  Yep, it’s been doing that.  So much for each generations claim that they have the “right” answer.  God has had how long to get this straight? 

But I can also see how atheist may be wrong about so many things. The more you believe your beliefs are the only ones to have , the more you should look at what you believe. I have tried to learn about your beliefs, Here is what I have found.

Again, Riley, where’s the evidence to support religious nonsense? There’s none and people have been looking for thousands of years.  Let me ask you, if I said that 700 degree iron will burn you, would you doubt me, say that I could be wrong? When that’s all the “belief” I have?   I certainly hope not.  You’d go with evidence in any situation except this god stuff.   

As long as I start understanding your concern you seem to be nice , helpful. trying with respect to teach me your beliefs, and it is a belief. But as soon as I make any statement about still believing in a god of any kind you turn on me like wild dogs. Please understand I am not talking about all . but most that I have come in contact with.

  No. As soon as you make any baseless statement, assuming that we should believe something with no evidence, that’s when I counter your claims. No wild dogs, I’m just telling you that you are wrong and why.  Most theists don’t like to be told that they are wrong and take it very badly.  Then you come out with claims that “some” atheists are “wild dogs”.  Really, wild dogs?   Damnation, Riley, but if you could see the posts I edit before posting here.     

Velkyn you seem to be becoming more angry as time goes on. I am concerned for you , not in your beliefs but you as a person. If I was to point to one thing that would keep me from becoming an atheist it the anger    I have encounter while being on this forum. The hate that you have for the thoughts of others is wrong in itself. I do not want to have any beliefs that promote that kind of anger at anyone. I think it is a shame. It was not the facts that made me think you were wrong , it is the way you tell them that makes you wrong. It does not sound like you do not believe in a god ,it just sounds like you are really pissed off at him.

I do get angry, Riley, no doubt about it.  It comes from theists being willfully ignorant hypocrites, constantly repeating the same baseless claims every day.  I probably do need a vacation from the site, I generally take one around March.  How would you feel if someone kept telling you that science was wrong and oh how bad it was, but contentedly sucked their Pepsi and typed on their computer and went to the doctor for antibiotics?  I hate the harm that religion does.  And it is religion, not just “some people”.  It stops inquiry, it fosters hatred, it makes people think that they can do nothing and get something.  I hate religion the same as I hate Nazism.  Is it wrong to hate that too? Should I not tell a skinhead he’s wrong?  I’m not pissed off at any god, I would be if it existed, but I am pissed off at religion and at the ignorant people who blindly follow it.   

The same people are on here all of the time. You make you little jokes about god and the people that believe in him . When some one of faith come here to talk, Granted some of them are fucking crazy,. You stop your little jokes and like a pack of wild dogs rush in to see if you can make the believer feel like a fool. The only problem with that is the fact that , they put up with you shit, you abuse , you total lack of respect and still try to tell you about why they feel the way they do. You response is , you are stupid , you are not thinking. When in fact it is YOU that have lost the idea of what is going on out here in the world we live. YOU keep on tell us all what a motherfucking evil being god is and we will keep on wishing that whatever anger is deep down inside of you will somehow , some day let you live in peace.

  And you could say that the same people on are Christian forums too.  So?  This is a community. No one wants to make a believer look like a fool. They come here, either invited or they find it on their own.  They come here often never reading the forum to get an idea of what goes on and start out with their own ignorance of their religion, their ignorance of atheism and other religions and the lies that they’ve picked up from somewhere that they were too lazy to look up for themselves. Respect is earned and it isn’t automatic, Riley.  Do you have respect for people who lie to you and about you, Riley?  How is asking for evidence and showing people how they are wrong “shit” and “abuse”?   No one simply says “you’re stupid” and “you’re not thinking”.  They may indeed be but they are always shown in great detail where their information and thought processes fail so they can *learn*.  You want to claim that atheists somehow have lost some “idea of whats going on out here in the world we live”.  Well, Riley, what’s going on?  Relgious people killing each other?  Religions trying to stop the advance of science so blind people can’t have a chance to see?  Religions trying to claim that they are right so people they don’t like should be second class citizens?  Sorry, I know all about what’s really going on out there.  Your god is an evil being if it does nothing to help those who need help and your “wishes” (prayers?) are useless as ever.   

This post should keep most of you busy making fun of it for days now. I have learn many things on this forum , some I thank you for and some that just makes me feel sorry for you . I do hope all goes well for you and yours. I truly mean that. Good-bye and take care.

Riley, why is it that you have to make up a strawman atheist that simply “must” make fun of your post?  Where have you see us do something even remotely like this?  But I can get mightily pissed at you for trying to claim that I or anyone else would. 

[monkeymind]

Theist = human 1
Atheist = human 2
deities= no concern ,just beliefs in general.
 and monkey , atheist is a belief that theist are wrong. And please understand I am not saying that is a bad thing. Let's take god, any god out of it. It works the same is I was to argue about decaf coffee on real coffee.

No, atheism is a lack of belief in god(s) period.

Weather you prefer one kind of coffee or another is a matter of preference or opinion.

[Hatter23]

  I hate religion the same as I hate Nazism.  Is it wrong to hate that too?

I hardly think that's quite the equivalent. Nazism, at its core, requires hate, ignorance, and blind arrogance. Religion doesn't need the hate, though it often seems to make up for it in the other two categories and sometimes decides that the hate is good too.

The issue is the majority of religious people are just deluded, not really evil. But delusion of specialness is the gateway to villany.

[Hatter23]

Theist = human 1
Atheist = human 2
deities= no concern ,just beliefs in general.
 and monkey , atheist is a belief that theist are wrong. And please understand I am not saying that is a bad thing. Let's take god, any god out of it. It works the same is I was to argue about decaf coffee on real coffee.

No, atheism is a lack of belief in god(s) period.

Weather you prefer one kind of coffee or another is a matter of preference or opinion.

 Once again is there no equivalency. Whether the coffe is perfect is a very diferent question then if coffee exists.

[monkeymind]

^^^Exactly. I would prefer to believe in God, but because of a lack of evidence, I can't.

I believe  :)I'll have a cup of coffee now. I'm going to have regular because I prefer it over decaf.

[jaimehlers]

I am only quoting these two paragraphs; the reason should be fairly obvious.

I haven’t put words in your mouth. I am giving an instance where your words indicate something I find disgusting.  I’ll quote you verbatim:

Maybe instead of simply jumping to the worst possible conclusion or misrepresenting what I say, you should seek to clarify what I mean.  It would have been much simpler to ask me if I meant such things instead of assuming that I did and excoriating me based on that.

You invoke the threat of the masses and their reaction as a reason I should not do what I do.  I stand by my accusation that you want me to cower in the face of the majority and to stop what I’m doing because it’s too dangerous. I think it is fear that motivates you since you mention that there’ll be violence if people like me persist in our actions.  You invoke fear, Jaime, so I’m guessing you are afraid of this supposed violence.  Either that or you don’t care about the violence at all and are just using it as a tool to in an attempt to scare me.

No, I did not "invoke the threat of the masses".  What, you seriously thought that I was trying to terrify you into being silent?  That's patently absurd!  I am not the kind of person who would do such a thing even to people I dislike or hate, let alone someone like you.  I really am sorry that you assumed that, because it was not at all what I meant, and I find such a thing to be utterly repugnant.  The reason I brought it up - the only reason I brought it up - is because I do tend to be cautious, and I bring up things which might be obvious to other people because I do not know whether they actually are obvious.  Please, in the future, if I say something that seems to be totally outrageous like that, give me the chance to explain myself.

[Truth OT]

The less grounded a belief is in actual reality, the more fervently its advocates will defend it if pressed.  If you have the facts on your side, you don't need to push hard, you just need to push steadily.  The problem is, when you see moderates and extremists the same way, you're pushing them back into the same corner, and you're pushing hard enough that they feel threatened.  It's like the difference between eroding a rock over time and using a firehose on the rock.  The radicalization comes not because of the facts, but because of the way you use those facts.  Facts by themselves are passive - they don't do anything.  It's what people do with them that matters.  And you need to understand that you can even drive away allies if you push too hard, even if you have the facts on your side.

But this is only true for rational people. Look at the issue of Xians vs evolution. The facts of evolution scare the crap out of Xians so almost all of them fight hard against the facts. Also, Xians are finally getting a clue and realizing that you can't destroy evolution without destroying the rest of science so they have stepped up their efforts from just being anti-evolution into a pogrom against all of science. If the Xians have their way we will enter a new Dark Age.

So you you don't want to eliminate theism?  I fail to see a substantive difference between saying "mine is the only true belief, and all these others are false, so they should be eliminated", which is what religious extremists say, and saying "all religious beliefs are delusional and harmful, so I want to eliminate theism", which is essentially what you're saying.  About the only one is that you don't actually have a religious belief, but that's beside the point.  You're still advocating the elimination of beliefs which you think are wrong, which is exactly what religious extremists want to do.

This is an incorrect analogy. Some atheists are saying "all religious beliefs are delusional and harmful, so I want to cure these people". And the theists are happy with killing their opponents while the atheists want everyone alive and well.

Not in the slightest.  The reason you think that is because you're not seeing the very real distinction between them, and so you assume that they must be the same on the inside.  This sort of thinking ends up being self-fulfilling.  Treat moderates as if they're no different than extremists enough, and you'll push them into making common cause to stand up against that kind of short-sighted belligerence.  "The enemy of my enemy...."

But the moderates do not see the extremists as an enemy. That is a huge part of the problem. The moderates see the extremists as more of an eccentric uncle who they try to ignore but will never reject outright. That is the danger of the moderates; they support, however passively, the actively dangerous ones. For example, al Qaeda would be a group of extremists rotting in jail in various countries instead of the free terrorists they are, if only the moderate Muslims saw them for what they are instead of as fellow Muslims fighting for Islam.

First off, let me start by agreeing with Jaimehlers. When you have facts on your side, you goal should primarily be getting those facts out there for all, especially your opponents to see. Facts unfortunately are not leaned on enough in the realm of this debate from either side. People rarely keep on arguing with the facts once they are confronted with the fact enough. What they will argue with is the person who disagrees with them and oftentimes it is not an argument against facts, but an argument involving some tangential issue of contention.
In the case of the xtian vs. evolution, a major problem I see is the fact that most xtians do not understand what evolution actually is. Christians have been conditioned to equate evolution with big bang cosmology and feel they need to argue origins in there stance against evolution without realizing that evolution is not really even about origins. In this case facts need to be presented, re-presented, and presented again so that the xtian will finally realize what the facts are. Once the facts are understood, they become difficult to argue with.

-----
 I am convinced that one of the biggest reasons why belief in religion is so strong is due to the fact that most religious people are ignorant. To me, ultimately the most effective way to combat what religion is is to expose the facts. Expose what the religious texts actually say so that the masses can see for themselves what the teachings are as well as what the charactor of the gods written about therein. After exposing these things and continuing to educate people on them, the focus should then shift to de-mystifying the clergy. Realizing that it is the clergy class that has been empowered to set the religious agenda, rational folks should be all the more anxious to expose the masses to the knowledge that the traditionally have relied upon the clergy to spin, I mean supply them. Change people (in this case believers) to stop being lazy and start assuming the responsibility for their own knowledge and the faith it may or may not create in them. If you want people to realize the Emporer has no close, you must find a way to publically display the Emporer in his nakedness for all to see for themselves.

[Samothec]

... atheist is a belief that theist are wrong.

This is the only belief statement about atheists I would (conditionally) accept.

I hope you are still lurking reading this.

Yes, there is more anger being displayed than there probably should be. But you need to understand that even for those who are not actively angry at god or their former religion or theists in their past that screwed them over, every atheist who used to be a theist has the knowledge buried inside that they were lied to for the entire time they were a theist. That builds up.

In every other case of someone finding out that they've been lied to, society sides with the recipient, not the liar. But for atheists, society sides with the liars. That creates resentment too.

So there are several valid sources of anger. So it sometimes leaks out where it should not. That does not excuse it but I hope this helps you understand why.

I hardly think that's quite the equivalent. Nazism, at its core, requires hate, ignorance, and blind arrogance. Religion doesn't need the hate, though it often seems to make up for it in the other two categories and sometimes decides that the hate is good too.

The Nazis were a socialist political party used as a front for the atrocities committed. Membership eventually became mandatory as the war progressed. So there was no hate or blind arrogance. There was ignorance, blind obedience and continuing propaganda of lies. The lies did stem from the hatred of a few but not every member of the Nazi party hated the Jews. But the Nazis did use hatred – as religion does – to try and control people by giving them permission to hate.

It seems like Xianity has accepted that people don't believe in the devil anymore so they use atheists and homosexuals as targets of permitted hatred to better manipulate the flock.

[velkyn]

I’ve given you multiple opportunities to clarify.  How many times do I have to quote you for you to finally realize that your meanings might not be clear. Why should I assume I’m wrong if you never correct me?  As for your claim that you never invoke the threat of the masses, You said this:

I trust you have not forgotten that there are far more religious people than atheists, even if many of them are not particularly religious?  Your strategy is terribly risky in the long run, because push come to shove, there's enough religious people in this country alone to provoke a massive backlash against atheists who are seen to be "uppity".  It doesn't matter that they're wrong to do this, or that it's not constitutional.  There's enough theists in this country to amend the Constitution, especially if they're careful to limit it to only banning atheism and don't touch any other religion.

 
Yes, I seriously thought this since you said exactly this.  You drew a connection between the reaction of the masses to my strategy and claimed it would be a “massive backlash against atheists who are uppity”, cause and effect.  I find your claim that you only brought this up since other people might not understand the consequences of their actions to be a curious assumption of utter stupidity on my part. If you thought my reaction was misplaced, I find it strange that you took so long to correct me.  I will endeavor to read your posts in the future keeping in mind you may not mean at all what you seem to be saying.   

[velkyn]

  I hate religion the same as I hate Nazism.  Is it wrong to hate that too?

I hardly think that's quite the equivalent. Nazism, at its core, requires hate, ignorance, and blind arrogance. Religion doesn't need the hate, though it often seems to make up for it in the other two categories and sometimes decides that the hate is good too.
The issue is the majority of religious people are just deluded, not really evil. But delusion of specialness is the gateway to villany.

I would disagree, surprise surprise.    Most, if not all religions, are based on the idea that those who do not follow the religion are "not good with god" aka "evil".   People hate "evil", yes?  So it seems, to me, that religion requires some amount of hate, even if individual theists ignore those parts because they are uncomfortable with them. 

[Hatter23]

I would disagree, surprise surprise.    Most, if not all religions, are based on the idea that those who do not follow the religion are "not good with god" aka "evil".   People hate "evil", yes?  So it seems, to me, that religion requires some amount of hate, even if individual theists ignore those parts because they are uncomfortable with them.

I guess we have to disagree I'm an antitheist because I think religion requires the believer to be stupid; You're an antitheist because you think religion requires the believer to be hateful.

I think I can live with that difference.

[screwtape]

riley2112

I have already inserted paragraphs in one of your posts for you.  It was the one and only time I will do it.  Please use the "enter" key more liberally to break your posts into smaller, more digestible chunks.  It will make your posts more readable, your points more easily understood and it will have the added benefit of keeping me from getting medieval on you.

Thank you.

[Hatter23]

Theist= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
Athesit= If you don't believe how I believe you are wrong.
 

I can see how theist may be wrong about so many things. And I would not be surprised , as more information become available that religion maychange or a better word, evolve into a less violent belief that becomes what god meant it to be in the first place.

But I can also see how atheist may be wrong about so many things. The more you believe your beliefs are the only ones to have , the more you should look at what you believe. I have tried to learn about your beliefs, Here is what I have found.

As long as I start understanding your concern you seem to be nice , helpful. trying with respect to teach me your beliefs, and it is a belief. But as soon as I make any statement about still believing in a god of any kind you turn on me like wild dogs. Please understand I am not talking about all . but most that I have come in contact with.

Velkyn you seem to be becoming more angry as time goes on. I am concerned for you , not in your beliefs but you as a person. If I was to point to one thing that would keep me from becoming an atheist it the anger    I have encounter while being on this forum. The hate that you have for the thoughts of others is wrong in itself. I do not want to have any beliefs that promote that kind of anger at anyone. I think it is a shame. It was not the facts that made me think you were wrong , it is the way you tell them that makes you wrong. It does not sound like you do not believe in a god ,it just sounds like you are really pissed off at him.

The same people are on here all of the time. You make you little jokes about god and the people that believe in him . When some one of faith come here to talk, Granted some of them are fucking crazy,. You stop your little jokes and like a pack of wild dogs rush in to see if you can make the believer feel like a fool. The only problem with that is the fact that , they put up with you shit, you abuse , you total lack of respect and still try to tell you about why they feel the way they do. You response is , you are stupid , you are not thinking. When in fact it is YOU that have lost the idea of what is going on out here in the world we live. YOU keep on tell us all what a motherfucking evil being god is and we will keep on wishing that whatever anger is deep down inside of you will somehow , some day let you live in peace.

This post should keep most of you busy making fun of it for days now. I have learn many things on this forum , some I thank you for and some that just makes me feel sorry for you . I do hope all goes well for you and yours. I truly mean that. Good-bye and take care.


paragraphs created by Screwtape.

To my fellow atheists I pose a question: Am I off base calling this post "Condecending last words" (ignoring there was an additional unexpected post)?

[velkyn]

To my fellow atheists I pose a question: Am I off base calling this post "Condecending last words" (ignoring there was an additional unexpected post)?

It's pretty much a typical post from a theist who can't actually counter atheist arguments.  You could set a clock by how predictable so many theists are. 

And as for people being either stupid or hateful for religion, I'd say that being stupid often leads one to be hateful. 

[Hatter23]

To my fellow atheists I pose a question: Am I off base calling this post "Condecending last words" (ignoring there was an additional unexpected post)?

It's pretty much a typical post from a theist who can't actually counter atheist arguments.  You could set a clock by how predictable so many theists are. 

And as for people being either stupid or hateful for religion, I'd say that being stupid often leads one to be hateful.

Putting aside the last statment;

Isn't it a bit telling that he completely and uttering ignores the portion of my post about Indonesia? Especially when I prefaced it with a "pay particular attention"

Evil and Hateful behavior by atheists to theists: Pointing out God isn't real, not apologizing about it, and perhaps some rude words

Politely Ignored behavior by theists to atheists: Death threats, being fired, and prison time

Yeah...........................

[screwtape]

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,7594.msg474174.html#msg474174

[velkyn]

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,7594.msg474174.html#msg474174

ah, nice.   

[jaimehlers]

I’ve given you multiple opportunities to clarify.  How many times do I have to quote you for you to finally realize that your meanings might not be clear. Why should I assume I’m wrong if you never correct me?  As for your claim that you never invoke the threat of the masses, You said this:

Confronting me like you've been is hardly what I'd consider an "opportunity to clarify".  And that might be the root of the problem.  What you intend as an opportunity for me to clarify, I see as you being aggressive and confrontational, and vice versa from things I've said.

Yes, I seriously thought this since you said exactly this.  You drew a connection between the reaction of the masses to my strategy and claimed it would be a “massive backlash against atheists who are uppity”, cause and effect.  I find your claim that you only brought this up since other people might not understand the consequences of their actions to be a curious assumption of utter stupidity on my part. If you thought my reaction was misplaced, I find it strange that you took so long to correct me.  I will endeavor to read your posts in the future keeping in mind you may not mean at all what you seem to be saying.

I wasn't assuming utter stupidity on anyone's part.  It was concern on my part, nothing more.  And for what it's worth, I was trying to correct your understanding of things, but for whatever reason it didn't come off the way I intended it.  And I'm sorry for that.

[velkyn]

Jaime, I read what you write and responds as I understand what you’ve written.  If I get it wrong, then you can clarify.  If I have to look at your post, then respond “Is this really really what you mean?”  before I respond that’s a bit silly.