Author Topic: A question for Old Earth Creationists  (Read 1526 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2012, 05:02:01 PM »
I'm still wondering where the "sin" came from in the first place. It seems like the sin had to come with getting a soul or it would not matter, right? Can a being without a soul sin? Can animals sin? Inquiring minds want to know. :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Rustybeatz

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2012, 10:52:57 PM »
I'm still wondering where the "sin" came from in the first place. It seems like the sin had to come with getting a soul or it would not matter, right? Can a being without a soul sin? Can animals sin? Inquiring minds want to know. :?

I've also heard Adam described as being created "perfectly, in the image of god".  But if he was created perfectly then he wouldn't have messed up, right?  I never understood that.  It's the same thing with Lucifer (biblical, not WWGHA forum member  :laugh:), he's described as being created perfect, but with too much pride.  WTF?  Am I missing something?

Offline Lorax

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2012, 06:48:26 AM »
The Greek word for perfect is Teleos. It can mean perfect-perfect or just, mature, complete, or intended

Offline Tero

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2012, 07:30:10 AM »
It's just so boring. Adam, Eve, snake. Other mythologies would have done a lot more with the fruit and snake.

Offline jetson

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2012, 07:40:58 AM »
I'm still wondering where the "sin" came from in the first place. It seems like the sin had to come with getting a soul or it would not matter, right? Can a being without a soul sin? Can animals sin? Inquiring minds want to know. :?

I've also heard Adam described as being created "perfectly, in the image of god".  But if he was created perfectly then he wouldn't have messed up, right?  I never understood that.  It's the same thing with Lucifer (biblical, not WWGHA forum member  :laugh:), he's described as being created perfect, but with too much pride.  WTF?  Am I missing something?

You're not missing anything as long as you have the reading comprehension of a nice dinner fork. 

On the other hand, if you cannot understand the very simple concept that God created Adam as a perfect human, and then promptly gave Adam the free will to do as he pleases, and then decided that Adam was missing a companion and created Eve, and then proceeded to remind both of them that there is something they are not allowed to do, even though they were perfect, but still had free will, and then they did eat of the fruit, wherein God reminded them that they were sinners and promptly kicked them out of the Garden of Eden, where they promptly had children who had the intelligence of a shoelace, and then fought for Adams love (don't ask), resulting in the death of one of them, and by proxy, the propagation of the goat herders union and prophecy writers (who also knew more about God than any human who has ever lived), then yeah - you might be confused.

As it turns out, the story continues, but by the time I get to the second half of the book of Joshua, I wake up in a room full of people in white coats, beeping sounds, and frantic family members yammering on about how I managed to get a hold of another copy of the Bible.  Apparently it's happened more than once.   ;D

Offline Tero

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2012, 07:56:06 AM »
It' all so logical! Adam sins, but it is Eve's fault. 6000 years later Jesus dies for all of us, and Adam. Fill in Jewish myth in between.

Offline Historicity

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2012, 08:33:59 AM »
The official Catholic answer is that there must be a clear separation between man and animals.  Souls are not generated by biology but implanted by God.  Therefore at some point undetermined and probably never to be determined a Homo Erectus couple who were apish animals gave birth to a child who had a soul and was the first real human.  The story of Adam & Eve with all its explicit details is considered symbolic.  Y'know animals are the mere "dust of the Earth".

It was accepted that an immortal soui could not exist in a rock nor a plant nor anything without enough brain to receive it.  In the Middle Ages the Catholic Church said the soul was not implanted in a fetus until obvious differentiation of the fetus into male or female.  Any priest who carried out any religious service for a miscarried fetus like that would be excommunicated.  In effect an early term abortion was OK.  Visible differentiation occurs at about 7 weeks

In the middle of the 19th century microbiology reached the point where fertilization of sperm and ovum were discovered.  The Catholic Church changed its doctrines and had the soul implanted at fertilization.

In the late 19th century before the discovery of the chromosomes the theory of animals growth was called the Mosaic Theory.  Clearly as the cells grew and specialized they would fragment the germ plasm (as it was called) into different somato plasms.  So to put it in modern terms the DNA in your right hand would only be DNA for a right hand.  Thus the fertilized ovum was unique and special.

So the Catholic Church had updated its doctrines and as it always does, denied it ever had any other doctrine.  Whatever its doctrines are now are what it has had eternally.  For instance, it has never, ever said you can't make loans at reasonable interest rates even tho you can find its pronouncements all the way up thru the Middle Ages that even declared that anyone who opened a discussion on the matter would be excommunicated.

But we live in an era of not only cheap printing but universal literacy.  We now know that when I cut myself I kill lots and lots of divine images of myself.  All my cells have divine images = the genome.  According to  the National Institute of Health this was also discovered:
Quote
The NIH reports, "It is estimated that up to half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among those women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy."
So nature or biology or whatever you want to call it has no great regard for these unique human genomes and discards about half of them.


Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2012, 11:40:46 AM »
The Greek word for perfect is Teleos. It can mean perfect-perfect or just, mature, complete, or intended

so, did God create man "perfect-perfect" or did he create them intentionally flawed so he could play with them?
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Offline Lorax

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 12:22:54 AM »
How do I know?

I'm not even sure he created them teleos.

(In the story that is)

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for Old Earth Creationists
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2012, 01:14:24 PM »
How do I know?

I'm not even sure he created them teleos.

(In the story that is)

yep, and this is why religion is silly.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/