Desecration of enemy bodies.

[Brakeman]

My opinion is that a country's army is military force that should reflect their country's best interests.
When soldiers fall out of control, they damage their own side just as if they got careless and mortered their fellow soldiers. If the desecration of the bodies inspires even one Afghani to not accept western influence but instead to kill soldiers, the the pissing soldiers are definably guilty of conspiring to murder their own buddies with their negligence. Remember the goal of the Afghan war is not to kill everybody, but to win the heart and minds of the populace to accept a more west friendly stance. So the soldiers went against the goals that all of their buddies were fighting for, they went against what their country sent them there to do. I don't think a firing squad it too harsh if it taught a lesson to the others.  As for Kids being kids, - crap - if you're not grown up enough to be professional and in control, you're not mature enough to be in the army.

[MadBunny]

Apparently it isn't Babdah.
Feel free to find a period of time when we have *not* been engaged in a military action.

I think the Carter administration is the only administration since Hoover where we were not involved in some kind of military action.

Bummer, I've always liked Fmr President Carter.  I greatly admire his dedication and efforts that he's done after he left office as well.  I do believe he was one of the few to cancel his Secret Service, and wish that we'd stuck with his foreign policy choices re: oil independence.


------- - - -
From the great Wiki.

1978 – Zaire (Congo). From May 19 through June 1978, the United States utilized military transport aircraft to provide logistical support to Belgian and French rescue operations in Zaire.

1979 - Nicaragua — Anastasio Somoza II, the CIA-backed dictator, falls. The Marxist Sandinistas take over government, and they are initially popular because of their commitment to land and anti-poverty reform. Somoza had a murderous and hated personal army called the National Guard. The Contras fight a CIA-backed guerrilla war against the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s.

1980 – Iran. Operation Eagle Claw. On April 26, 1980, President Carter reported the use of six U.S. transport planes and eight helicopters in an unsuccessful attempt to rescue the American hostages in Iran.

1980 - El Salvador — The Archbishop of San Salvador, Óscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D’Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. Death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.

1980 - U.S. Army and Air Force units arrive in the Sinai in September as part of "Operation Bright Star". They are there to train with Egyptians armed forces as part of the Camp David peace accords signed in 1979. Elements of the 101st Airborne Division, ( 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry) and Air Force MAC (Military Airlift Command) units are in theater for four months and are the first U.S. military forces in the region since World War II.

1981 – El Salvador. After a guerrilla offensive against the government of El Salvador, additional US military advisers were sent to El Salvador, bringing the total to approximately 55, to assist in training government forces in counterinsurgency.

1981 – Libya. First Gulf of Sidra Incident On August 19, 1981, US planes based on the carrier USS Nimitz shot down two Libyan jets over the Gulf of Sidra after one of the Libyan jets had fired a heat-seeking missile. The United States periodically held freedom of navigation exercises in the Gulf of Sidra, claimed by Libya as territorial waters but considered international waters by the United States.

1982 – Sinai. On March 19, 1982, President Reagan reported the deployment of military personnel and equipment to participate in the Multinational Force and Observers in the Sinai. Participation had been authorized by the Multinational Force and Observers Resolution, Public Law 97-132

------------ - - - -

I've commented on how the NDAA has been ongoing in other threads, as well as on various political sites, generally in response to people trying to pretend President Obama's actions were unprecedented.  The NDAA issue of Carter's time was FISA, which essentially circumvented the 4th amendment to the Constitution.

[MadBunny]

My opinion is that a country's army is military force that should reflect their country's best interests.
When soldiers fall out of control, they damage their own side just as if they got careless and mortered their fellow soldiers. If the desecration of the bodies inspires even one Afghani to not accept western influence but instead to kill soldiers, the the pissing soldiers are definably guilty of conspiring to murder their own buddies with their negligence. Remember the goal of the Afghan war is not to kill everybody, but to win the heart and minds of the populace to accept a more west friendly stance. So the soldiers went against the goals that all of their buddies were fighting for, they went against what their country sent them there to do. I don't think a firing squad it too harsh if it taught a lesson to the others.  As for Kids being kids, - crap - if you're not grown up enough to be professional and in control, you're not mature enough to be in the army.

The only grave that deserves to be pissed on where Afghanistan is concerned is probably Fmr President Reagan's.  He's the one that got us in there, and he's the one that green lighted us training the Taliban in the first place.  *we created Al Queda*.

Stupid proxy wars.

[Death over Life]

My opinion is that a country's army is military force that should reflect their country's best interests.
When soldiers fall out of control, they damage their own side just as if they got careless and mortered their fellow soldiers. If the desecration of the bodies inspires even one Afghani to not accept western influence but instead to kill soldiers, the the pissing soldiers are definably guilty of conspiring to murder their own buddies with their negligence. Remember the goal of the Afghan war is not to kill everybody, but to win the heart and minds of the populace to accept a more west friendly stance. So the soldiers went against the goals that all of their buddies were fighting for, they went against what their country sent them there to do. I don't think a firing squad it too harsh if it taught a lesson to the others.  As for Kids being kids, - crap - if you're not grown up enough to be professional and in control, you're not mature enough to be in the army.

The only grave that deserves to be pissed on where Afghanistan is concerned is probably Fmr President Reagan's.  He's the one that got us in there, and he's the one that green lighted us training the Taliban in the first place.  *we created Al Queda*.

Stupid proxy wars.

Very True, and glad to hear Paul mention this exact thing in the South Carolina debates.

[screwtape]

...They are not our role models... 

Who would be our role models just out of curiosity?

How about George Washington, who ordered his troops not to execute captured British troops, even though they were executing ours? 

As much as I would like to kick Thom Friedman in the balls... http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/opinion/24friedman.html

Or, because he is a smarter, better person,  RFK Jr:  http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1217-30.htm

It is about being true to our beliefs and principles. 

[Babdah]

The only grave that deserves to be pissed on where Afghanistan is concerned is probably Fmr President Reagan's.  He's the one that got us in there, and he's the one that green lighted us training the Taliban in the first place.  *we created Al Queda*.

Stupid proxy wars.

Truely amazeing... then 20 years later we go to war with them.

From the great Wiki.

1978 – Zaire (Congo). From May 19 through June 1978, the United States utilized military transport aircraft to provide logistical support to Belgian and French rescue operations in Zaire.

1979 - Nicaragua — Anastasio Somoza II, the CIA-backed dictator, falls. The Marxist Sandinistas take over government, and they are initially popular because of their commitment to land and anti-poverty reform. Somoza had a murderous and hated personal army called the National Guard. The Contras fight a CIA-backed guerrilla war against the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s.

1980 – Iran. Operation Eagle Claw. On April 26, 1980, President Carter reported the use of six U.S. transport planes and eight helicopters in an unsuccessful attempt to rescue the American hostages in Iran.

1980 - El Salvador — The Archbishop of San Salvador, Óscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D’Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. Death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.

1980 - U.S. Army and Air Force units arrive in the Sinai in September as part of "Operation Bright Star". They are there to train with Egyptians armed forces as part of the Camp David peace accords signed in 1979. Elements of the 101st Airborne Division, ( 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry) and Air Force MAC (Military Airlift Command) units are in theater for four months and are the first U.S. military forces in the region since World War II.

1981 – El Salvador. After a guerrilla offensive against the government of El Salvador, additional US military advisers were sent to El Salvador, bringing the total to approximately 55, to assist in training government forces in counterinsurgency.

1981 – Libya. First Gulf of Sidra Incident On August 19, 1981, US planes based on the carrier USS Nimitz shot down two Libyan jets over the Gulf of Sidra after one of the Libyan jets had fired a heat-seeking missile. The United States periodically held freedom of navigation exercises in the Gulf of Sidra, claimed by Libya as territorial waters but considered international waters by the United States.

1982 – Sinai. On March 19, 1982, President Reagan reported the deployment of military personnel and equipment to participate in the Multinational Force and Observers in the Sinai. Participation had been authorized by the Multinational Force and Observers Resolution, Public Law 97-132

I wonder how many other back door operations we have, not to mention that we also just left Iraq high and dry. Amazing. But yet we are suppose to be a country with superior morels? 

[Mr. Blackwell]

As it is, I overall despise the US military and its disgusting propaganda. (Same for the UK).

I particularly hate[1] those redneck fucks who join the military just because they get paid to blow shit up and get to be called 'heroes' when they come home... heroes... for participating in the death of thousands of innocent men, women and children in countries they don't know jackshit about.

Let's just say that seeing a group of these assholes pissing on the dead doesn't exactly shift my opinion in a good direction.

I understand that a military force is necessary ... for defense only. Not to go fuck about in someone else's lands.

I also understand celebrating a win ... but pissing on the bodies? War is some serious shit. Killing people is serious shit. Signing up to a killing machine that invades countries it has no business in and kills thousands of innocent people every year ... and then pissing on the bodies in a wave of 'yeehaws' ... no. Sorry. Fuck them.

1.	Yes, I fucking hate 'em

We need more people like you in the military. I mean that. People who have actually put some real thought into what it means to represent our country and defend it if necessary. People who prepare for war but work towards peace. Who show a little respect for the fallen enemy. People who don't walk around acting like billy baddass just cause they have a uniform.

There are conscientious people like you and others here who currently serve in the armed forces. They have their reasons like I have mine.

The problem is that there are far more "rednecks" who join so they can "blow things up".

Also, in 2001 they lowered the standards for admission into the armed forces because we didn't have enough man power and they were turning too many people away. Over the past 10 years they have let just about anybody in. Now they have raised the standards back up to something more reasonable. Which means our standing army is about to shrink.

In a nut shell, there are some very specific reasons why we have so many violent inbred idiots currently representing us.  90% of the problem originates upstream.

[rev45]

Also, in 2001 they lowered the standards for admission into the armed forces because we didn't have enough man power and they were turning too many people away. Over the past 10 years they have let just about anybody in. Now they have raised the standards back up to something more reasonable. Which means our standing army is about to shrink.

My brother is a marine and made a complaint about this when he graduated from boot camp.  He told me how disappointed he was that they let just about anyone become a marine.  The glory and prestige that he pictured in his mind of being a marine went away when he had to stand in formation at graduation next to guys who could barely do a pullup or not shoot them-self in the foot with their gun. 

[Frank]

Also, in 2001 they lowered the standards for admission into the armed forces because we didn't have enough man power and they were turning too many people away. Over the past 10 years they have let just about anybody in. Now they have raised the standards back up to something more reasonable. Which means our standing army is about to shrink.

My brother is a marine and made a complaint about this when he graduated from boot camp.  He told me how disappointed he was that they let just about anyone become a marine.  The glory and prestige that he pictured in his mind of being a marine went away when he had to stand in formation at graduation next to guys who could barely do a pullup or not shoot them-self in the foot with their gun.

Always wondered why if it's so hard to become a USM, why are there a quarter of a million of them. Now I know.

[velkyn]

^^^indeed.  My brother was (is?) a Marine too.  He was physically fit, handsome, but not a paragon of intellect.  If you can take orders and not question that seems to be the most important above anything else.   Very much the reason I roll my eyes at any over the top lauding of our "men and women in uniform" or the nonsense of the "greatest generation". 

[screwtape]

We need more people like you in the military.

Some good thoughts I agree with Jay.  I would propose this as a solution: reinstitute the draft.  This will cure a number of ills.

1. It will ensure that our military has the kind of people you are talking about, not just the self-selected ones who do it out of duty or to be "billy badass".  The military is kind of out of touch with the citizenry. There are numerous studies that show our current volunteers - officers in particular - seem to be cultivating an attitude of superiority and alienation from the citizens whom they ostensibly serve.  We need people from more diverse backgrounds.  I think this would also solve the evangelical problem the military has. 

2. It will raise the overall quality of the soldiers.  I know it is taboo to say, but let's face it, a lot of people who join the military do so because they do not have any other options.  A draft will solve that.

3. It will ensure that the risks of war are shared by a wider cross-section of citizens, rather then a few patriotically motivated families.  If a war really is necessary, I feel the whole nation must fight it to win.  No more of this bullshit where we fight on borrowed money and the president says, "hey, go shopping.  Don't let the war get in the way of your normal routine."  If it is not important enough for us to sacrifice, it is not important enough to start.

4. It will help ensure that we go to war for good reasons and that the wars are short.  A draft will make everyone pay attention to presidents who want to charge off to war.  More people will have "skin in the game".  Remember, Nixon ended the draft in order to reduce the protest over Vietnam.

[MadBunny]

I find it so absolutely disheartening that as a supposed 'super power' we've been bogged down for over a decade dealing essentially with guys in dresses who're poorly armed and in many cases barely literate.

This is the kind of bullshit that you wind up with when you try to use a military force for something other than actual war, or cut corners.

Now we're faced with a veteran force of yahoos all being discharged who've been taught that they should hate their commander in chief and told that they're heroes.

[velkyn]

ain't that the truth.  I'm wondering if we'll have a spate of violence when/if Obama is re-elected. 

[violatedsmurf80]

I find it so absolutely disheartening that as a supposed 'super power' we've been bogged down for over a decade dealing essentially with guys in dresses who're poorly armed and in many cases barely literate.

Kind of makes you wonder what the powers that be have people over there for in the first place. Is it what they told the general public or is it for black gold. Then the US and Israel killing the scientist that is helping have nuclear power. what are your thoughts about Iran having nuclear power in the first place.

[Nick]

Anyone having nukes is a scary thought.  Problem is once the toothpaste is out of the tube it is hard to put it back in.  The more common it becomes the sooner some off group will end up with a mini version (like a suitcase bomb).  It is a dangerous world we live in.  Too many people, limited resources, and the power to destroy...what possibly could go wrong?

[Mr. Blackwell]

...The glory and prestige that he pictured in his mind of being a marine went away when he had to stand in formation at graduation ...

I experienced the same feeling upon my graduation. To be honest, I am one of the ones who was only able to join BECAUSE they lowered the standards.

I did not graduate high school. I am color blind. I was 30 years old. I had an umbilical hernia.[1] But, I could flap my arms and walk like a duck so I guess that counts for something.

It doesn't hurt that I scored an 84 on my ASVAB and all my line scores are 120 or more. Back to the point.

The people serving in the armed forces are no different, no better than anyone else who doesn't try. I know about as much now as I did before I joined...ultimately. I realized that soldiers are no different than the general population.

I realized that the DoD has one hell of a propaganda machine rollin up in this bitch. Perception is 9/10 reality and reality is a bitch.

1.	Which the doc at MEPS either ignored or was too senile to notice

[Mr. Blackwell]

I would propose this as a solution: reinstitute the draft.

To be honest, my destitution was a primary motivator for me to join.

After I pulled my knees out of my chest I realized that your proposal makes perfect sense. Switzerland and Israel do something similar to what you suggest. Seems to work for them.

[kindred]

Desecrating bodies is a no-no in modern times.

These guys were a few centuries too late for this kind of stuff.

Next thing we know, these guys might go out and "forage."

[Frank]

I would propose this as a solution: reinstitute the draft.  This will cure a number of ills.

Yeah. The best armies are always made up from unwilling conscripts.

[screwtape]

I would propose this as a solution: reinstitute the draft.  This will cure a number of ills.

Yeah. The best armies are always made up from unwilling conscripts.

We saved Euprope's britches in WW2 and almost 2/3 of that military force was drafted.  In all, about 16 million people served.  10 million of them were drafted.  I think that worked out fine because the overwhelming majority of the nation was on board with the war.  In Vietnam, it was a problem because it was not such a popular war.  So, Nixon had two choices - end the war or stop drafting people.  The correct choice, the will of the people, was to end the war.  He opted for the choice that was more politically advantageous to himself and ended the draft.

You see how that works?  The draft does exactly what I want it to do - make an unpopular war even more difficult to fight.

[Frank]

I would propose this as a solution: reinstitute the draft.  This will cure a number of ills.

Yeah. The best armies are always made up from unwilling conscripts.

We saved Euprope's britches in WW2 and almost 2/3 of that military force was drafted.

Less of that. The Russians saved us all. I would also point out that the opposition was drafted as well. All your idea means is that thousands of young men and women would spend two years of their lives fucking about in fatigues when they could be doing something productive. It is very expensive to train modern soldiers. So it is not realistic to spend cash trying to train people who would rather be somewhere else.

[velkyn]

there is a problem with a volunteer army, I would think you would get all the wannabee "rambos" who are also not good soldiers.

[screwtape]

Less of that. The Russians saved us all.

Collective we, Franky.  I know it kills you to give the US any credit for anything, but the facts is facts.  Without the US involvement, you would not exist. Or you would be wearing a little square moustache under your nose.  I really hate throwing that in anyone's face[1], but you kind of left me no choice.

But let's go ahead and give the Ruskies their due.  We may not have been able to do it without Hiter blundering into fighting on two fronts.  Do you know what the Russian's conscription rate was?  It was required that every able bodied male over age 18 enter the army. Does that mean 100%? I don't think so.  But that puts it up there pretty high.  And also consider they set up machine guns at the back of their ranks to keep their soldiers from retreating.

And OH!  Lookey there!  The Brits used the draft too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Kingdom#World_War_II
I say, old bean, you chaps even drafted birds.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#World_Wars
"During the Second World War, both Britain and the Soviet Union conscripted women."

I would also point out that the opposition was drafted as well.

Totally irrelevant. There will always be some segment of society that wants to eschew all responsibility.  My approach is to only fight necessary wars that are in defense of my society.  And should such a war arise, it is every citizens' duty to help the effort.  Those who do not are not acting in society's interest and shall be shot.  You know, if I were king.

All your idea means is that thousands of young men and women would spend two years of their lives fucking about in fatigues when they could be doing something productive.

The military is highly productive when it isn't killing people.  At least in the various US services, recruits can get top notch technical training in communications, IT, welding, vehicle repair, etc. That is practical and useful for them as well as employers.  They could be put to use in more of a National Guard role where they help with disaster relief and such.

It is very expensive to train modern soldiers. So it is not realistic to spend cash trying to train people who would rather be somewhere else.

Well, again, in my plan, you give it your all and get trained or we shoot you.  That keeps a lid on the malcontents.  But there are several European countries who require national service.  How do they pull it off?

1.	really, I do.  I find it to be ugly and impolite when other Americans do it without provocation, especially to the French.

[Frank]

Less of that. The Russians saved us all.

Collective we, Franky.  I know it kills you to give the US any credit for anything, but the facts is facts.  Without the US involvement, you would not exist. Or you would be wearing a little square moustache under your nose.  I really hate throwing that in anyone's face[1], but you kind of left me no choice.

1.	really, I do.  I find it to be ugly and impolite when other Americans do it without provocation, especially to the French.

I'm sorry but you are just displaying your ignorance of the facts so it would be pointless to get into any further discussion. 

[violatedsmurf80]

I agree with frank, other then violating freedoms, it is not isn't equal.  Forced soldiers fight crappy look at all the negative effects that it had on the Vietnam forced soldiers, killing whole towns. Besides the draft if you were to implement the draft it would encourage the failing leadership to fight more wars more carelessly.

[Frank]

Check out the Falklands war.

A large conscript force 400 miles from its homeland against a smaller highly motivated volunteer force 10,000 miles from its homeland. We all know who won that war.
In any war the men who are there because they chose to be there will always perform better than conscripts. The only time conscription is required is when your enemy is a nation of equal standing that can raise an army of millions. Then you need numbers to avoid being over run.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Well...whether it's all volunteer or all conscripts or somewhere in between, I think we can all agree that it is in poor taste to piss on the people you kill.

[jetson]

Well...whether it's all volunteer or all conscripts or somewhere in between, I think we can all agree that it is in poor taste to piss on the people you kill.

You might believe that, but it is clear based on the recent apologetics in the media, that many Americans would rather point out how much worse the enemy has been.  It's clearly a sign to me that we have a long way to go in collective morality.

[Death over Life]

Well...whether it's all volunteer or all conscripts or somewhere in between, I think we can all agree that it is in poor taste to piss on the people you kill.

You might believe that, but it is clear based on the recent apologetics in the media, that many Americans would rather point out how much worse the enemy has been.  It's clearly a sign to me that we have a long way to go in collective morality.

To me, that says that we can't so much blame the military for lowering their standards because the people have lowered their standards of ethics. I personally think it is a combination of modern day religion/Christianity and blind patriotism why they are doing as you said. They don't even understand why they are patriots to the US at all. They just do it because thats the status quo of society. So, because of it, they get the blind prejudice/hatred/racism at others because they aren't "American". They also feel because they are in the US, unless it is to USA citizens, the USA has a right to do whatever they want to anybody else, but then point the finger at others for their wrong doings. Hypocrisy at it's finest.