Author Topic: God abandons Tebow  (Read 3354 times)

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Offline learnin

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2012, 02:42:23 PM »
Nah, god just knew that if Tebow won the Super Bowl, that would qualify as proof that he existed..so he asked the guy to loose a few games early so nobody would suspect.

Got to protect peoples free will, you know.

Offline screwtape

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2012, 02:48:24 PM »
Christians can tend to get a bit over excited when a famous sportsperson or celebrity is publicly Christian. We think it gives us street cred.

yeah, well, it annoys the fuck out of the sane people.

Personally, I hope it is in god's plan that the Oakland Raiders make Tebow a quadriplegic next season.  That would be a good lesson and he could set such a good example.  You know, still being cheery and spewing his "I thank my savior" shit every 12 seconds while being strapped to a motorized wheelchair fitted out with a colostomy bag.  That would be awesome.
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Offline learnin

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2012, 02:54:19 PM »
Of course we can try, but our efforts aren't having a huge impact. It's like a trickle of goodwill against a raging torrent of selfishness and greed.

And, honestly, I'm not sure if I would prefer to be created with the ability to do good only. I know many people are appaled at the idea, likening it to mental slavery. What do you think?

My perspective is that it really doesn't matter whether I would or wouldn't prefer being made to do good. Fact is, I have a choice because thats what God decided.

What would you do in this situation?     Pretend there is a cup of cold arsenic sitting on a table in front of your five year old child.  You, and a nut, are sitting on chair close by.  The nut is telling your child to go ahead and drink because it's good and tasty.   Would you sit there and say:  "No, don't drink it, it will harm you"?    Or would you get up and remove the damn thing from your child's grasp?   

God should do the same thing that you would do....but, then, you exist and you love your child.....

Offline Pale Rider

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2012, 03:09:37 PM »
Guess it just proves god is not god...Tebow just got lucky and his luck ran out in Foxboro by the tune of 45-10.

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2012, 03:36:35 PM »
Of course we can try, but our efforts aren't having a huge impact. It's like a trickle of goodwill against a raging torrent of selfishness and greed.

And, honestly, I'm not sure if I would prefer to be created with the ability to do good only. I know many people are appaled at the idea, likening it to mental slavery. What do you think?

My perspective is that it really doesn't matter whether I would or wouldn't prefer being made to do good. Fact is, I have a choice because thats what God decided.
Since we are God's pets He would be charged with animal cruelty for the way He has kept most of us.

What would you do in this situation?     Pretend there is a cup of cold arsenic sitting on a table in front of your five year old child.  You, and a nut, are sitting on chair close by.  The nut is telling your child to go ahead and drink because it's good and tasty.   Would you sit there and say:  "No, don't drink it, it will harm you"?    Or would you get up and remove the damn thing from your child's grasp?   

God should do the same thing that you would do....but, then, you exist and you love your child.....
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2012, 03:41:57 PM »
Of course we can try, but our efforts aren't having a huge impact. It's like a trickle of goodwill against a raging torrent of selfishness and greed.

And, honestly, I'm not sure if I would prefer to be created with the ability to do good only. I know many people are appaled at the idea, likening it to mental slavery. What do you think?

My perspective is that it really doesn't matter whether I would or wouldn't prefer being made to do good. Fact is, I have a choice because thats what God decided.

What would you do in this situation?     Pretend there is a cup of cold arsenic sitting on a table in front of your five year old child.  You, and a nut, are sitting on chair close by.  The nut is telling your child to go ahead and drink because it's good and tasty.   Would you sit there and say:  "No, don't drink it, it will harm you"?    Or would you get up and remove the damn thing from your child's grasp?   

God should do the same thing that you would do....but, then, you exist and you love your child.....

I'd remove it, of course. But I'm not God and I can't see beyond my own situation.
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Offline wright

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2012, 04:01:20 PM »

I'd remove it, of course. But I'm not God and I can't see beyond my own situation.

Please understand that this is being asked sincerely: do you really believe if your God told a parent to kill their child, or even allow their child to die when the parent could prevent it, that the parent should obey?

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Offline learnin

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2012, 04:24:46 PM »
Of course we can try, but our efforts aren't having a huge impact. It's like a trickle of goodwill against a raging torrent of selfishness and greed.

And, honestly, I'm not sure if I would prefer to be created with the ability to do good only. I know many people are appaled at the idea, likening it to mental slavery. What do you think?

My perspective is that it really doesn't matter whether I would or wouldn't prefer being made to do good. Fact is, I have a choice because thats what God decided.

What would you do in this situation?     Pretend there is a cup of cold arsenic sitting on a table in front of your five year old child.  You, and a nut, are sitting on chair close by.  The nut is telling your child to go ahead and drink because it's good and tasty.   Would you sit there and say:  "No, don't drink it, it will harm you"?    Or would you get up and remove the damn thing from your child's grasp?   

God should do the same thing that you would do....but, then, you exist and you love your child.....

I'd remove it, of course. But I'm not God and I can't see beyond my own situation.

Then we should never act to stop another persons free will because we can't see beyond the situation.  You should leave it up to God.  If your child chooses to drink, then, God has a plan.  If your child, for some reason, passes up the arsenic, then, God willed it.   Maybe God had a plan for Hitler.   Why imprison a serial murderer?   Let the guy go, we can't see what good God has in store for us. 

No.  Be reasonable.   If you, who love your child, would remove danger from his or her grasp, God should do the same to those whom he loves. 

In the book of Revelation, there is a passage where God holds one of the Churches accountable because "THEY TOLERATE A JEZEBEL IN THEIR MIDST."   In other words, God is pissed because his Christians are not taking action against someone who is tempting them away from right living.  God's pissed that they don't put a stop to an evil person but he never lifts a hand to stop a father from molesting his daughter when no one else knows it's going on.  If it's good for the goose, it's damn well good for the gander.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2012, 08:05:00 PM »

I'd remove it, of course. But I'm not God and I can't see beyond my own situation.

Please understand that this is being asked sincerely: do you really believe if your God told a parent to kill their child, or even allow their child to die when the parent could prevent it, that the parent should obey?

Yes. If the command was from God, and the parent knew it with absolute assurance, then yes. A Christian believes that our lives are not our own, but Gods. Christians are regularly called to preach the gospel in dangerous situations. Whilst not a "death sentence" strictly speaking, there are many Christians who are willing to lose their life in order to save souls.

Caveat: I can't, however, conceive of a situation such as you describe. I know that many atrocities are commited by people who claim they were acting on God's orders. It grieves me and I'm sure it grieves God. We can't pretend that some mental illnesses might not manifest in such a manner.

I guess I'll be smashed for my response here, but bear this in mind also:

Christians abhor abortion, believing that only God has the right to take a life. I don't know any Christians who support any form of abortion, in any circumstances. Isn't it interesting, then,  that those who do support abortion probably also react with horror to a Christian saying that God hs the right to end life? Because how can they on the one hand claim that God, who created all things and is the author of life, does not have the right to end a life, but they, who at worst are trying to avoid an inconvenience and at best are punishing the child for the sins of the father ( I speak of rape )-  does have the right to end life?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2012, 08:19:18 PM »
MM could your faith in God save your child if he/she accidentaly drank it,could you be saved by faith if you did?  After all if you "believe"  drinking poisin can't hurt you can it?
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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2012, 08:45:44 PM »
mm,

I know this is a tough thing to speak to, but it tears at the heart of some of the problems with God.  On this forum, and even in real life, I have asked Christians if they would kill their own child on Gods command.  Most are taken aback by the thought, not of killing their child, but of God commanding them to do so.  Of course, most will immediately tell you that God would never do this.  And even when we mention Abraham, they simply cannot fathom such a command.

Yet, there are plenty of cases where parents were told by God, to kill their children, and they carried out the command.  They killed their own children, and claimed that God ordered them to.  So we have a problem.  On the surface, it is so simple to say that God would never do such a thing.  But underneath, these people are either completely nuts, or God spoke to them, and commanded them to kill their own children.

But how do we know the difference?  Is it really that simple to shrug your shoulders and claim that when something so horrible happens, that the killers are lunatics and murderers, and that there is no way that God would make such a command?

Here's the rub though...when pushed, Christians on this forum, and some in real life, have told me that they would have no choice but to carry out Gods command!  And at a the same time, when it is someone else, there is literally no way that God would ever make such a command.  Do you see the problem? 

You see, from where the atheist stands, there is literally one answer.  God is imaginary.  Some people hear voices in their heads, well documented, and kill their children.  There will NEVER be a case where anyone would ever agree that God actually commanded someone to kill their own children.  The difference is that Christians cling to the idea that God would never do such a thing, and atheists are most certain that there is no God in the first place.  There can't be.

Throughout the Bible, God commands and by extension, executes more killing than 50 hitlers combined.  Read Joshua.  The first half of Joshua is nothing but slaughtering all men, women and children, and even animals in communities.  There are newborns, and young baby girls and boys among these communities.  And if you are one of Joshua's soldiers, you are commanded to kill these babies.  Picture yourself wielding your sword above these tiny infants, and slicing them to death.

These images, and images of the entire population of humans being drowned by the God character in the Old Testament, are enough to make me sick, and make my cry at the thought of such horror.  I used to call it barbaric, but I know that it was how things we're back then.  Armies rolled over cities, and killed, and took the spoils.  God or no gods.  The difference is that today, people should not be so proud to worship such a character, and grant this character some form of innocence if they truly believe this god is real.  If it is real, people should step away form this god, and never look back.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2012, 08:48:56 PM »
MM could your faith in God save your child if he/she accidentaly drank it,could you be saved by faith if you did?  After all if you "believe"  drinking poisin can't hurt you can it?

Not 100% certain what you're asking, exactly, I'll respond as best I can.

I believe God can give and take life as He sees fit. I believe He does. I believe that He works through all things, for His own perfect purposes, and that we are simply not able to know those purposes, even though it drives us nuts that we can't.

So He could save a child by means that appear miraculous to us - say, removing all traces of poison from the body through no human interaction. Or He could save the child by giving the nearest doctor the skills to know how to prevent the death. It's easy to dismiss God in the second example and claim human effort alone - but them its also easy, and popular, to blame God for starving children even though those deaths also can be directly linked to human actions (or inactions).

It's hard to wrestle with for beleivers and non-believers alike.

In terms of the importance of faith, my own personal opinion is that, deep down, I have very little faith. I doubt that when it comes to the crunch I even have the faith the size of that mustard seed Jesus mentions. I think many Christians consider that they do but probably don't. I base this on the fact that I still now after being a Christian for 20 years go completely off the rails when something bad happens to me, even with really trivial things. When it comes to the crunch I rarely trust in God.

Maybe thats why so many prayers aren't answered in the way Christians want, but I don't know really.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2012, 09:05:55 PM »
Of course we can try, but our efforts aren't having a huge impact. It's like a trickle of goodwill against a raging torrent of selfishness and greed.

And, honestly, I'm not sure if I would prefer to be created with the ability to do good only. I know many people are appaled at the idea, likening it to mental slavery. What do you think?

My perspective is that it really doesn't matter whether I would or wouldn't prefer being made to do good. Fact is, I have a choice because thats what God decided.

What would you do in this situation?     Pretend there is a cup of cold arsenic sitting on a table in front of your five year old child.  You, and a nut, are sitting on chair close by.  The nut is telling your child to go ahead and drink because it's good and tasty.   Would you sit there and say:  "No, don't drink it, it will harm you"?    Or would you get up and remove the damn thing from your child's grasp?   

God should do the same thing that you would do....but, then, you exist and you love your child.....

I'd remove it, of course. But I'm not God and I can't see beyond my own situation.

Then we should never act to stop another persons free will because we can't see beyond the situation.  You should leave it up to God.  If your child chooses to drink, then, God has a plan.  If your child, for some reason, passes up the arsenic, then, God willed it.   Maybe God had a plan for Hitler.   Why imprison a serial murderer?   Let the guy go, we can't see what good God has in store for us. 

No.  Be reasonable.   If you, who love your child, would remove danger from his or her grasp, God should do the same to those whom he loves. 

In the book of Revelation, there is a passage where God holds one of the Churches accountable because "THEY TOLERATE A JEZEBEL IN THEIR MIDST."   In other words, God is pissed because his Christians are not taking action against someone who is tempting them away from right living.  God's pissed that they don't put a stop to an evil person but he never lifts a hand to stop a father from molesting his daughter when no one else knows it's going on.  If it's good for the goose, it's damn well good for the gander.

I really can't tell you anything here that you probably don't know already. Free-will and God's omnipotence are just bloody hard things to grasp. The way i see it, God knows a heinous act will occur before it occurs, but that certainly doesn't absolve the guilt of the one who committed the act because He still excercised free will. If I buy nice chocolates for my family I know that at some point one of my kids won't resist the temptation and will sneak some on the sly. But the answer isn't to remove chocolates from the equation. We're born with a sex drive, and that gets abused, but I for one am glad God created sex.

I think we can see the logic of sacrifice/reward for trivial things, but struggle to see that logic when we see the horrible sacrifices made by allowing free will but don;t see the correspondingly great rewards. Christians have faith that God is doing something good.
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Offline bgb

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2012, 09:13:39 PM »
How does one measure faith?
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2012, 09:18:06 PM »
mm,

I know this is a tough thing to speak to, but it tears at the heart of some of the problems with God.  On this forum, and even in real life, I have asked Christians if they would kill their own child on Gods command.  Most are taken aback by the thought, not of killing their child, but of God commanding them to do so.  Of course, most will immediately tell you that God would never do this.  And even when we mention Abraham, they simply cannot fathom such a command.

Yet, there are plenty of cases where parents were told by God, to kill their children, and they carried out the command.  They killed their own children, and claimed that God ordered them to.  So we have a problem.  On the surface, it is so simple to say that God would never do such a thing.  But underneath, these people are either completely nuts, or God spoke to them, and commanded them to kill their own children.

But how do we know the difference?  Is it really that simple to shrug your shoulders and claim that when something so horrible happens, that the killers are lunatics and murderers, and that there is no way that God would make such a command?

Here's the rub though...when pushed, Christians on this forum, and some in real life, have told me that they would have no choice but to carry out Gods command!  And at a the same time, when it is someone else, there is literally no way that God would ever make such a command.  Do you see the problem? 

You see, from where the atheist stands, there is literally one answer.  God is imaginary.  Some people hear voices in their heads, well documented, and kill their children.  There will NEVER be a case where anyone would ever agree that God actually commanded someone to kill their own children.  The difference is that Christians cling to the idea that God would never do such a thing, and atheists are most certain that there is no God in the first place.  There can't be.

Throughout the Bible, God commands and by extension, executes more killing than 50 hitlers combined.  Read Joshua.  The first half of Joshua is nothing but slaughtering all men, women and children, and even animals in communities.  There are newborns, and young baby girls and boys among these communities.  And if you are one of Joshua's soldiers, you are commanded to kill these babies.  Picture yourself wielding your sword above these tiny infants, and slicing them to death.

These images, and images of the entire population of humans being drowned by the God character in the Old Testament, are enough to make me sick, and make my cry at the thought of such horror.  I used to call it barbaric, but I know that it was how things we're back then.  Armies rolled over cities, and killed, and took the spoils.  God or no gods.  The difference is that today, people should not be so proud to worship such a character, and grant this character some form of innocence if they truly believe this god is real.  If it is real, people should step away form this god, and never look back.

As I said on another thread, I'm not the right person to try and respond to these objections to God. Many Christian apologists do it better than I ever could, and I have no doubt you have read them as much as me. Suffice it to say there ARE responses to these sorts of objections.

I struggle with it also. I can't see why God couldn't at least spare women and children, but I do believe God is good and I have to trust that He knows what He is doing and its for a good purpose.

I've tried to be honest in my responses on this thread, and can do no more than that.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2012, 09:20:11 PM »
How does one measure faith?

I've no idea. All I can do is measure mine against other Christians I know or have read about- often mine is clearly inferior.
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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2012, 09:35:41 PM »
This is what I find so funny.  Christians say you have to have but fail at it.  They instead try to show their evidence.  God spoke to me, it was a miracle things like that.  Faith is believing something that's not true.  Using religious evidence to show faith is totally wrong.
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline jetson

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2012, 09:42:27 PM »

As I said on another thread, I'm not the right person to try and respond to these objections to God. Many Christian apologists do it better than I ever could, and I have no doubt you have read them as much as me. Suffice it to say there ARE responses to these sorts of objections.

I struggle with it also. I can't see why God couldn't at least spare women and children, but I do believe God is good and I have to trust that He knows what He is doing and its for a good purpose.

I've tried to be honest in my responses on this thread, and can do no more than that.

mm - you're still here, answering as best you can.  That's more than many are willing to do.  It's tiring, and many people just give up - and I don't blame them.  If you learn anything, it would be that atheists are not what they are made out to be.  And the distinction that is most important, and true for both sides, is that outspoken atheists, or believers on the internet, are on the tails of the distribution.  They do not represent your average atheist or Christian, in my opinion.

I keep doing this because I want people to know what I think.  I want them to take the time to listen to arguments that go directly against life-time beliefs.  Arguments that make people angry - and arguments that usually are granted special protection for some reason (it's considered rude to discuss religion).

Anyway, we don't agree on God, but we're both humans, with families, jobs, lives, and everything in between.

Offline wright

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2012, 09:50:13 PM »

Yes. If the command was from God, and the parent knew it with absolute assurance, then yes. A Christian believes that our lives are not our own, but Gods. Christians are regularly called to preach the gospel in dangerous situations. Whilst not a "death sentence" strictly speaking, there are many Christians who are willing to lose their life in order to save souls.

Caveat: I can't, however, conceive of a situation such as you describe. I know that many atrocities are commited by people who claim they were acting on God's orders. It grieves me and I'm sure it grieves God. We can't pretend that some mental illnesses might not manifest in such a manner.

Thank you for your honesty. So if I understand you correctly, you find the idea that your god would ask such a thing inconceivable, but if he did, the parent's duty would still be to kill their child.

See, this is a very dangerous level of "obedience", magicmiles. Mental illness and murder aside, for those inclined to abuse or even neglect their children, religion offers a way of rationalizing that behavior. The state government of Oregon recently passed legislation to protect children under those circumstances, at least partly in response to the Followers of Christ... http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2011/03/bill_ending_faith_healing_exce.html



Quote
I guess I'll be smashed for my response here, but bear this in mind also:

Christians abhor abortion, believing that only God has the right to take a life. I don't know any Christians who support any form of abortion, in any circumstances. Isn't it interesting, then,  that those who do support abortion probably also react with horror to a Christian saying that God hs the right to end life? Because how can they on the one hand claim that God, who created all things and is the author of life, does not have the right to end a life, but they, who at worst are trying to avoid an inconvenience and at best are punishing the child for the sins of the father ( I speak of rape )-  does have the right to end life?


How many Christians do you know? There are a number of Protestant denominations that have no problem with a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy. Some of them have caveats about rape victims, when in the pregnancy it's an acceptable option; it seems a fairly broad range of responses... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_abortion

Again, thanks for your honesty and directness, magic. That's more than we get from a lot of professed Christians on this forum.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2012, 10:13:56 PM »
MM could your faith in God save your child if he/she accidentaly drank it,could you be saved by faith if you did?  After all if you "believe"  drinking poisin can't hurt you can it?

Not 100% certain what you're asking, exactly, I'll respond as best I can.

I believe God can give and take life as He sees fit. I believe He does. I believe that He works through all things, for His own perfect purposes, and that we are simply not able to know those purposes, even though it drives us nuts that we can't.

So He could save a child by means that appear miraculous to us - say, removing all traces of poison from the body through no human interaction. Or He could save the child by giving the nearest doctor the skills to know how to prevent the death. It's easy to dismiss God in the second example and claim human effort alone - but them its also easy, and popular, to blame God for starving children even though those deaths also can be directly linked to human actions (or inactions).

It's hard to wrestle with for beleivers and non-believers alike.

In terms of the importance of faith, my own personal opinion is that, deep down, I have very little faith. I doubt that when it comes to the crunch I even have the faith the size of that mustard seed Jesus mentions. I think many Christians consider that they do but probably don't. I base this on the fact that I still now after being a Christian for 20 years go completely off the rails when something bad happens to me, even with really trivial things. When it comes to the crunch I rarely trust in God.

Maybe thats why so many prayers aren't answered in the way Christians want, but I don't know really.
having no ill effects from drinking the poison,,,which is why some Christians are snake handlers,,,,,they believe God will save them if they are bitten
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2012, 10:15:04 PM »
Or perhaps we could eliminate the worlds problems by putting others before ourselves.

Are you suggesting that prayer is ineffective?  :o
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2012, 10:16:27 PM »
Jestson the only thing an athiest can do is assume the person is crazy if they think they hear God telling them to kill......because the fact there is NO evidence for any god
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2012, 10:26:56 PM »
This is what I find so funny.  Christians say you have to have but fail at it.  They instead try to show their evidence.  God spoke to me, it was a miracle things like that.  Faith is believing something that's not true.  Using religious evidence to show faith is totally wrong.

I believe faith is believing something to be true and responding accordingly

All the Christians I know fall short in respect of their faith and all manner of Chrisian living. But we encourage each other to grow in our faith and obedience.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2012, 10:35:05 PM »
^^ So believing that your computer is in front of you and responding accordingly is faith?

Hmm.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2012, 10:41:38 PM »

Yes. If the command was from God, and the parent knew it with absolute assurance, then yes. A Christian believes that our lives are not our own, but Gods. Christians are regularly called to preach the gospel in dangerous situations. Whilst not a "death sentence" strictly speaking, there are many Christians who are willing to lose their life in order to save souls.

Caveat: I can't, however, conceive of a situation such as you describe. I know that many atrocities are commited by people who claim they were acting on God's orders. It grieves me and I'm sure it grieves God. We can't pretend that some mental illnesses might not manifest in such a manner.

Thank you for your honesty. So if I understand you correctly, you find the idea that your god would ask such a thing inconceivable, but if he did, the parent's duty would still be to kill their child.

See, this is a very dangerous level of "obedience", magicmiles. Mental illness and murder aside, for those inclined to abuse or even neglect their children, religion offers a way of rationalizing that behavior. The state government of Oregon recently passed legislation to protect children under those circumstances, at least partly in response to the Followers of Christ... http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2011/03/bill_ending_faith_healing_exce.html



Quote
I guess I'll be smashed for my response here, but bear this in mind also:

Christians abhor abortion, believing that only God has the right to take a life. I don't know any Christians who support any form of abortion, in any circumstances. Isn't it interesting, then,  that those who do support abortion probably also react with horror to a Christian saying that God hs the right to end life? Because how can they on the one hand claim that God, who created all things and is the author of life, does not have the right to end a life, but they, who at worst are trying to avoid an inconvenience and at best are punishing the child for the sins of the father ( I speak of rape )-  does have the right to end life?


How many Christians do you know? There are a number of Protestant denominations that have no problem with a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy. Some of them have caveats about rape victims, when in the pregnancy it's an acceptable option; it seems a fairly broad range of responses... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_abortion

Again, thanks for your honesty and directness, magic. That's more than we get from a lot of professed Christians on this forum.

I agree it's a dangerous thing indeed. It's why I said that there would need to be absolute assurance that it was the will of God. And I consider it inconceivable because, in God's wisdom, it would appear He has not intervened in our lives in such a direct manner since He sent Jesus to die for our sins. But the bottom line remains - a Christian believes God has the right to use human lives for His purpose. We're aware how appaling that seems to those that don't know God.

You might be right that some Christians have tolerance for abortion in some cases. I think thats sad, but not unexpected. There's often a lot of pressure for church's to sympathise with some community views. On the other end of the spectrum there's Westboro Baptist..but please, lets not go there..

 Certainly none of the Christians I know or have known support abortion, and I hope you get the point I was making in any event.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2012, 10:53:36 PM »
MM could your faith in God save your child if he/she accidentaly drank it,could you be saved by faith if you did?  After all if you "believe"  drinking poisin can't hurt you can it?

Not 100% certain what you're asking, exactly, I'll respond as best I can.

I believe God can give and take life as He sees fit. I believe He does. I believe that He works through all things, for His own perfect purposes, and that we are simply not able to know those purposes, even though it drives us nuts that we can't.

So He could save a child by means that appear miraculous to us - say, removing all traces of poison from the body through no human interaction. Or He could save the child by giving the nearest doctor the skills to know how to prevent the death. It's easy to dismiss God in the second example and claim human effort alone - but them its also easy, and popular, to blame God for starving children even though those deaths also can be directly linked to human actions (or inactions).

It's hard to wrestle with for beleivers and non-believers alike.

In terms of the importance of faith, my own personal opinion is that, deep down, I have very little faith. I doubt that when it comes to the crunch I even have the faith the size of that mustard seed Jesus mentions. I think many Christians consider that they do but probably don't. I base this on the fact that I still now after being a Christian for 20 years go completely off the rails when something bad happens to me, even with really trivial things. When it comes to the crunch I rarely trust in God.

Maybe thats why so many prayers aren't answered in the way Christians want, but I don't know really.
having no ill effects from drinking the poison,,,which is why some Christians are snake handlers,,,,,they believe God will save them if they are bitten

Christians get some strange ideas into their heads, no doubt about that.

I've noticed its American Christians more than Australian Christians  ;)
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2012, 10:57:30 PM »
I agree it's a dangerous thing indeed. It's why I said that there would need to be absolute assurance that it was the will of God. ...

Except that you have no way of gaining that assurance, in either direction.  All you have is your own morality to judge by.
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Offline wright

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2012, 11:10:00 PM »

I agree it's a dangerous thing indeed. It's why I said that there would need to be absolute assurance that it was the will of God. And I consider it inconceivable because, in God's wisdom, it would appear He has not intervened in our lives in such a direct manner since He sent Jesus to die for our sins. But the bottom line remains - a Christian believes God has the right to use human lives for His purpose. We're aware how appaling that seems to those that don't know God.

That puts you ahead of some of the drive-by Christian commentators we get here.

Quote
You might be right that some Christians have tolerance for abortion in some cases. I think thats sad, but not unexpected. There's often a lot of pressure for church's to sympathise with some community views. On the other end of the spectrum there's Westboro Baptist..but please, lets not go there..

 Certainly none of the Christians I know or have known support abortion, and I hope you get the point I was making in any event.

Yes, I get your point. Thanks for the response, magic. It helps to understand where you're coming from, so to speak.


Christians get some strange ideas into their heads, no doubt about that.

I've noticed its American Christians more than Australian Christians  ;)

Hahaha! :laugh: No argument on that account, magic. I offer this quote from ParkingPlaces:
Quote
I would guess that this jumble of righteousness is at its worst in the United States. I don't mean to brag, but we've got a zoo of believers here, that, if caged and labeled, would draw millions of visitors a year.

From what I gather, there's a definite lack of crazy fundie Christians in Australia. Please keep it that way: if they ever do pull off a successful coup here, I'll need someplace to hide and Canada's too cold and not far enough away...  :'(
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 11:11:53 PM by wright »
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God abandons Tebow
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2012, 11:55:12 PM »
^^ So believing that your computer is in front of you and responding accordingly is faith?

Hmm.

A better example might be stepping onto a pedestrian crossing (crosswalk in USA?).  You believe the cars will stop and act accordingly.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.