Author Topic: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution  (Read 2737 times)

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Offline velkyn

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abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« on: January 13, 2012, 09:34:31 AM »
this is for magicmiles as a continuation of his reply to my post on the introductions thread.

I sure have applied it to my Christian faith. No matter how hard I tried to convince myself that there is no God and that we are but random cells in a random world...it just didn't fly. Can't lie to myself.

do you know anything about the science that you seem to find wrong?

Probably about as little as you - but I do know that no scientist claims to know the origins of the first bits of matter or particles. Am I wrong?

well, MM, I'm a geologist and I have a good background in biology, astronomy, etc.  So, from your posts, I can see that I know much much more about science than you do.  And it always makes me laugh at creatinists who are too lazy or too afraid to actually know about the science that they attack.  You for instance are too ignorant to know that eovlutionary theory is quite seperate from abiogensis and cosmongony. 

Your argument ends up as a god of the gaps claim which is very popular with creationists.  It solely  depends on the status of research at a single moment in time, where you make the claim that since we don't know *yet*, this means you particular god did something.  You of course cannot show that your god exists, that your god is the one responsible (it could just as well be Tezcatlipoca) or of course that evolutionary theory doesn't work. 

Now, ifyou think you can indeed show evidence for any of these claims of yours, please do.  However, you'd be the first.  Now, to help you not be so ignorant, and it is not a crime to be so, everyone is ignorant about something, here are some sites for you to educate yourself rather than listenting to the lies of other creationists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmogony

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_theory.html

http://cosmology.berkeley.edu/Education/IUP/Big_Bang_Primer.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs.html

now, in additino to this, I find it hilarious that you seem to have no problem with lies and liars.   I'm guessing this is headed for the usual theist claim that all atheists should be nihilists and have no morals.  It's so cute when theists try this against all evidence to the contrary. It seems that they need it to hope that other people arne't as good as they are.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 09:36:48 AM by velkyn »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2012, 05:13:57 AM »
I think it's wrong to lie. I was just trying to  make a point.

My remark "I know as little as you" was childish and uncalled for and I apologise.

For the record, I know nothing of science and dislike the discipline intensely. ( having said that, I can read, and i see as many impressive letters after the names of the creation scientists as other scientists in the respective fields. I know they're massively outnumbered though )

I don't try to make any other point other than the fact that the origin of the known universe cannot be explained scientiffically - in that 'something from nothing' has no alternate explanation other than a supernatural one. I beleive that supernatural is God...and I can't explain Him, but I can know Him.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 05:21:19 AM by magicmiles »
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Offline ungod

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2012, 09:30:41 AM »
I think it's wrong to lie. I was just trying to  make a point.

My remark "I know as little as you" was childish and uncalled for and I apologise.

For the record, I know nothing of science and dislike the discipline intensely.

We can see that in your avoidance of the use of computers, a product of science. Presumably, you
also have no family doctor or dentist, but instead seek relief with a faith healer?

Quote
( having said that, I can read, and i see as many impressive letters after the names of the creation scientists as other scientists in the respective fields. I know they're massively outnumbered though )

Yes, those "honourary degrees" from diploma mills are truly impressive, aren't they....and Soooo
respected in Academia!

Quote
I don't try to make any other point other than the fact that the origin of the known universe cannot be explained scientiffically -

And you have established this as "fact" how?    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Quote
in that 'something from nothing' has no alternate explanation other than a supernatural one.

And, DUH, who created your supernatural creator? DUH.

Quote
I beleive that supernatural is God...and I can't explain Him, but I can know Him.

Well, since you know him, do fill us in on some of the juicy details! What's he like? What language do you converse in? By telepathy? Tell us some of the insights he has revealed to you - and PLEASE, don't just regurgitate stuff from holy books - we want unique information that verifies your claimed knowledge of him!

Eagerly awaiting your response...
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Offline jetson

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2012, 11:21:50 AM »
I think it's wrong to lie. I was just trying to  make a point.

My remark "I know as little as you" was childish and uncalled for and I apologise.

For the record, I know nothing of science and dislike the discipline intensely. ( having said that, I can read, and i see as many impressive letters after the names of the creation scientists as other scientists in the respective fields. I know they're massively outnumbered though )

I don't try to make any other point other than the fact that the origin of the known universe cannot be explained scientiffically - in that 'something from nothing' has no alternate explanation other than a supernatural one. I beleive that supernatural is God...and I can't explain Him, but I can know Him.

I think this attitude, and everything about how you approach the world, to be sad and unfortunate.  But you seemed to be completely honest about it, to which I can only say thanks.

Humans have the urge to understand stuff.  They also seem to have a tendency to run out of steam in the discovery department, because it's damn complicated.  Luckily, we have had great minds cover the millennia who dare to step into the complexity, and try to understand it, and even explain it.  But as always, the lazy ones keep getting in the way.

That's right, lazy.  And I'm not pointing at you specifically, but at the collective group of people who go out of their way to stop science from telling us how things work, how the universe may have come into existence, how life as we know it came into existence, as well as many other mysteries.  And they do this precisely because it conflicts with old books.  Seriously.  An old book, which was never really a book in it's oldest forms, say's that some god poofed it all here, and poofed in the animals, and poofed in all of the stars and galaxies (something ancient people had no idea existed, not to mention that they had no idea they were standing on a fucking planet.)

This is the problem magicmiles.  And it's a big problem.  If you abhor science, then get an education on it before you try to tear it down.  It's that simple. And by the way, middle school children are learning about evolution in school every day. 

Recent surveys indicate that atheists know the Bible better than any other group - and my guess is because the Bible is the single best book to read in order to shed the delusion of God as anything other than a fictional character.  They read it, they step back and say "what?", and they realize that carrying on in life, believing in mythology as though its real, does nothing to help humanity, or move us forward as a species.  In fact, it holds us back.

The complexity of the universe, and the earth and life is amazing, and worth every second of time that scientists spend unraveling it.  And for those who choose to crack their Bible, read Genesis, and call it a day, I say fine - but stay the hell out of the way, and preach the delusion in privacy.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 07:22:47 PM »
I don't try to tear science down at all - of course it is an important and worthy discipline. My only real point here is that evolutionary theory has its starting point in the assumption that, somehow, particles and atoms developed out of nothing but there is this confidence that it will one day be explained scientifically. So when you completely close your mind to the possibility of something supernatural, it follows that any claims for existence of God will be met with scepticism. I know its not that simple for many atheists, especially the many here on the forums who seem to have had a faith in God at one point. Of couse I have read through the many reasons on the main site why God appears illogical. I can't address them (although many apologists do)

And as much some atheists choose to scoff at the credentials of scientists who believe whole-heartedly the biblical account and reconcile it with scientific observation, fact remains there are experts in the various scientific disciplines who do reconcile their observations with God. It's not a slam dunk in favour of evolutionary theory.

It also appears, and this is a bit of a general comment, that there is much derision of Christians for basing their beliefs on " some old books ". I think its important to bear in mind that so many Christians will testify that their faith is based more on a genuine realtionship they experience with God. That sems to come about through different avenues for many people, but there is no mistaking it when it happens. I'm sure you've heard many accounts of how becoming a Christian has turned lives around in spectacular ways. I don't think that sort of thing can be dismissed so easily.

Of course, thats not to say the bible isn't incredibly powerful. Recently a life long Hindu came to our church. He told us later that he had been going to different churches to try and "cover all bases", as he was very depressed and was planning to take his life. Our pastor happened to meet him and gave him a bible to take home, which had not happened to him before. He had literally never opened a bible in is life. He read it cover to cover in less than a week and gave his life to God immediately, at the expense of many relationships. Now, thats amazing. He read through all the very confronting passages in the OT and onto the NT, and recognised immediately God's plan of salvation and knew it was the real deal.
That sort of thing is far from unique, and I just can't accept the sort of reactions you often hear from skeptics, along the lines of "people just believe what makes them feel good" or "he is clearly mentally ill"
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Offline wright

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2012, 10:39:36 PM »
I don't try to tear science down at all - of course it is an important and worthy discipline. My only real point here is that evolutionary theory has its starting point in the assumption that, somehow, particles and atoms developed out of nothing but there is this confidence that it will one day be explained scientifically. So when you completely close your mind to the possibility of something supernatural, it follows that any claims for existence of God will be met with scepticism. I know its not that simple for many atheists, especially the many here on the forums who seem to have had a faith in God at one point. Of couse I have read through the many reasons on the main site why God appears illogical. I can't address them (although many apologists do)

Magic, we've had other theists here who insist on lumping the origins of the universe with biological evolution as if they were one and the same. They aren't, and when you do it, you come off sounding far more ignorant than I know you are.

Quote
And as much some atheists choose to scoff at the credentials of scientists who believe whole-heartedly the biblical account and reconcile it with scientific observation, fact remains there are experts in the various scientific disciplines who do reconcile their observations with God. It's not a slam dunk in favour of evolutionary theory.

I don't necessarily scoff at their credentials, if they got those at a legitimate institution of learning (one that meets minimal academic standards, not just a diploma mill), but the Biblical myth of creation in Genesis is quite easily disproven. Anyone who holds to it in the present age, credentials or no, can only do so by being willfully blind to the opposing evidence.

The Big Bang Theory, abiogenesis and evolutionary theory remain the best explanations of how the universe began and how life got started in our little corner of it. All three are far from complete, particularly abiogenesis, but no serious competition currently exists.

And if such competition is proposed, then for it to be even considered by science, it needs evidence. Not apologetics. Not simply attacking minor or manufactured weaknesses in what it is trying to replace. Evidence.
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2012, 10:52:33 PM »
you know the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle shows us that there is a GoD. The universe cannot be totally deterministic.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 11:44:57 PM »
I think I'll just stay silent on things scientific, unless I do the research first ( and thats unlikely...I'm already spending WAY too much work time perusing the site )
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 11:48:12 PM »
you know the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle shows us that there is a GoD. The universe cannot be totally deterministic.

I googled this and my brain exploded shortly afterwards. Think I'll stick with my resolution above.
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Offline RNS

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 12:47:44 AM »
...I can read, and i see as many impressive letters after the names of the creation scientists as other scientists in the respective fields. I know they're massively outnumbered though )

I don't try to make any other point other than the fact that the origin of the known universe cannot be explained scientiffically - in that 'something from nothing' has no alternate explanation other than a supernatural one. I beleive that supernatural is God...and I can't explain Him, but I can know Him.

*facepalm*

magicmiles, I'd like to see the comments ungod made in reply#2 addressed, if you would be so kind.
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Offline Cyberia

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 01:04:35 AM »
I don't try to make any other point other than the fact that the origin of the known universe cannot be explained scientiffically - in that 'something from nothing' has no alternate explanation other than a supernatural one. I beleive that supernatural is God...

The 'something from nothing' problem can indeed be solved scientifically provided certain conditions are true.  It seems that the universe we live in meets these conditions according to observations.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 01:07:04 AM »
I think UnGod may have misunderstood my post slightly - I don't disregard science or consider it anything less than essential in our world, its just that I don't have a good mind for it and get lost very quickly reading scientific discussions. Thats all I meant.

I think I've addressed his other questions in this thread, apart from outlining in what manner I personally Know God, and since he only wanted me to do this in such a manner that God was verified to him, I didn't bother and won't. It just doesn't work like that.
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Offline RNS

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 01:14:20 AM »
Quote
I don't try to make any other point other than the fact that the origin of the known universe cannot be explained scientiffically -

And you have established this as "fact" how?    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Quote
in that 'something from nothing' has no alternate explanation other than a supernatural one.

And, DUH, who created your supernatural creator? DUH.


More specifically, I was thinking more about these two questions, which address two errors in logical reasoning, rather than your opinions/beliefs in religion/science.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 01:26:50 AM »
Well, for the first one, I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that science can't explain the very first atom or particle ( I don't even know the difference, if you really want to know where Science and I are at )

I can't explain how God always existed - nobody can. But Christians use that as a starting point for the universe, and most scientists theorise an initial particle pr atom or whatever it might be as te starting point. Neither can be proven to my knowledge.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 01:34:19 AM »
My only real point here is that evolutionary theory has its starting point in the assumption that, somehow, particles and atoms developed out of nothing but there is this confidence that it will one day be explained scientifically.

Evolutionary theory has been distorted by people like those at Answers in Genesis and you sound like you've listened to them. Evolutionary theory only explains how life developed from single celled organisms to life as we know it. Abiogenesis is trying to fill in the beginning of the story from no organic life to the single celled organism just as efforts are being made to extend evolutionary theory back to connect up.

If you've ever seen a nature show documenting 'black smokers' – a geological feature at the bottom of the ocean – then you've seen what some believe to be a potential modern equivalent of what might have started life. It's a life cycle not based on oxygen or sunlight - the two things we once thought absolutely essential.

So when you completely close your mind to the possibility of something supernatural, it follows that any claims for existence of God will be met with scepticism.

It is not a matter of closing one's mind to the supernatural as much as looking for a natural explanation. And we keep finding natural explanations so there is no need for the supernatural.

Plus, I would like to point out that by its very nature, anything supernatural is by definition beyond natural so it is not natural. Why look to something that is not natural to explain nature?

It also appears, and this is a bit of a general comment, that there is much derision of Christians for basing their beliefs on " some old books ". I think its important to bear in mind that so many Christians will testify that their faith is based more on a genuine realtionship they experience with God. That sems to come about through different avenues for many people, but there is no mistaking it when it happens. I'm sure you've heard many accounts of how becoming a Christian has turned lives around in spectacular ways. I don't think that sort of thing can be dismissed so easily.

Getting inspiration from old books is fine. The problem is when people demand that others revere their 'holy' books and try to force a 5000 year old disproven explanation of how the universe works into schools. (Bats are not birds, there was not world-wide flood, etc)

Of course, thats not to say the bible isn't incredibly powerful. Recently a life long Hindu came to our church. He told us later that he had been going to different churches to try and "cover all bases", as he was very depressed and was planning to take his life. Our pastor happened to meet him and gave him a bible to take home, which had not happened to him before. He had literally never opened a bible in is life. He read it cover to cover in less than a week and gave his life to God immediately, at the expense of many relationships. Now, thats amazing. He read through all the very confronting passages in the OT and onto the NT, and recognised immediately God's plan of salvation and knew it was the real deal.
That sort of thing is far from unique, and I just can't accept the sort of reactions you often hear from skeptics, along the lines of "people just believe what makes them feel good" or "he is clearly mentally ill"

You missed a crucial point in your own story: the man was looking for a religious basis for his life.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2012, 01:42:13 AM »
Not the way he's explained it to us. He was going to kill himself and viewed going to as many different churches first as some sort of insurance policy.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2012, 01:54:27 AM »
Not the way he's explained it to us. He was going to kill himself and viewed going to as many different churches first as some sort of insurance policy.

I've been there, I know: it was not an insurance policy - he was looking for a reason to live.

But he might not be able to admit that to himself. Frankly, that he's saying it was an insurance policy sounds like he's still not doing good but might manage to hang on. However, help would probably be greatly appreciated.
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Offline RNS

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 01:55:14 AM »
Well, for the first one, I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that science can't explain the very first atom or particle ( I don't even know the difference, if you really want to know where Science and I are at )

I can't explain how God always existed - nobody can. But Christians use that as a starting point for the universe, and most scientists theorise an initial particle pr atom or whatever it might be as te starting point. Neither can be proven to my knowledge.

I'm not really asking you to prove anything. I'm just curious about your logics and reasoning.

The first question- if it cannot be proved and (to your own admittance) don't know anything about it, why do you believe that the origin of the universe cannot be explained scientifically? It seems like a pointless opinion to have, based on nothing other than either 1) what you'd like it to be, or 2) what others have told (lied to) you.
If you aren't going to use logic and reason and actual information to form your opinions, what's the point in having them? You may as well just say, "I don't know" or "I don't care".

Regarding the second question- I'm not really interested in a proof of where your god came from (since I know you, or anyone else, cannot explanation that), but more about what the question is implying. That is, why doesn't your god come under the same scrutiny you have applied to the universe.
In both cases you have the same problem: Universe- don't know where you came from. God- don't know where you came from.

For the first problem, you have decided that this problem needs an answer, so you explain it by saying something else created it i.e. god.

Now for the where did god come from problem, you no longer feel this deserves an answer. Why have you stopped a step short in this problem?

Although neither the god or the scientific theory about the origins of the universe can be proved (at the moment), one actually has evidence in favour of it while the other does not.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 02:02:27 AM »
For the record, I know nothing of science and dislike the discipline intensely.

Can you define "science"?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 03:14:42 AM »
For the record, I know nothing of science and dislike the discipline intensely.

Can you define "science"?

I can tell you that when I think of science I have in mind observations and experiments, i have a vague understanding that these observations need to be repeated and have things like a hypothesis and controls.

I'm kind of over discussing science for now.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2012, 03:36:50 AM »
Well, for the first one, I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that science can't explain the very first atom or particle ( I don't even know the difference, if you really want to know where Science and I are at )

I can't explain how God always existed - nobody can. But Christians use that as a starting point for the universe, and most scientists theorise an initial particle pr atom or whatever it might be as te starting point. Neither can be proven to my knowledge.

I'm not really asking you to prove anything. I'm just curious about your logics and reasoning.

The first question- if it cannot be proved and (to your own admittance) don't know anything about it, why do you believe that the origin of the universe cannot be explained scientifically? It seems like a pointless opinion to have, based on nothing other than either 1) what you'd like it to be, or 2) what others have told (lied to) you.
If you aren't going to use logic and reason and actual information to form your opinions, what's the point in having them? You may as well just say, "I don't know" or "I don't care".

Regarding the second question- I'm not really interested in a proof of where your god came from (since I know you, or anyone else, cannot explanation that), but more about what the question is implying. That is, why doesn't your god come under the same scrutiny you have applied to the universe.
In both cases you have the same problem: Universe- don't know where you came from. God- don't know where you came from.

For the first problem, you have decided that this problem needs an answer, so you explain it by saying something else created it i.e. god.

Now for the where did god come from problem, you no longer feel this deserves an answer. Why have you stopped a step short in this problem?

Although neither the god or the scientific theory about the origins of the universe can be proved (at the moment), one actually has evidence in favour of it while the other does not.


you referred to a 'problem' several times. I don't have any problems with the fact most scientists believe the world created itself, no matter how sound the science is. Thats because I know God created the world, and I know that because I believe the biblical account. You are incorrect to say there is no evidence for God, although you are of course free to dismiss it. As I have said I think more than once now, I'm not going to try and be a Christian apologist because I know there are many of those who can present the evidence much better than me. I think Josh McDowell is one of the better known ones, I'm sure there are many others.

To summarise my whole perspective...no matter how many scientists tell me its reasonable to believe that our world is random, I look at the world, I see design, I see a designer, and I believe Him to be God. i believe reality more than theory. If a GPS told me to continue straight for 100 meters but there was a lake in front of me I'd turn around.
No offence, but i'm going to post no more here, but certainly in other threads. Feel free to start a new one ;D

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Offline RNS

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2012, 03:58:48 AM »
Ok either you have misunderstood what I'm asking or you are intentionally avoiding it.

Quote
I don't have any problems with the fact most scientists believe the world created itself
I already told you, I don't really care what your opinions/beliefs are. And I'm not trying to make you believe in the scientific theory either. Please consider both your opinions and my own as irrelevant. I'm merely interested in the method of.. opinion formation?
I'm simply asking you what logics/reasons your opinions are based on because I'm much more curious about how you get to your conclusions rather than what your conclusions are.

I mentioned problem several times, yes. But I think you have misunderstood the context:

"prob·lem? ?[prob-luhm]
noun
1.
any question or matter involving doubt, uncertainty, or difficulty.
2.
a question proposed for solution or discussion."

I was using the second definition of the word.

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I'm not going to try and be a Christian apologist because I know there are many of those who can present the evidence much better than me. I think Josh McDowell is one of the better known ones, I'm sure there are many others.
Ok, tell them to come here and chat with us.

Clearly the fact that you see a designer, god or whatever means that the question (or as I put it earlier, problem) of where the universe came from is something that is important to you, or at least warrants speculation and in your case answering too.
I am curious as to why your god doesn't come under this same scrutiny as the universe. If I believed in god I would be EVEN MORE interested as to where he/she/it came from than where the universe came from.
I simply don't understand how your curiosity can be quenched simply by "god did it". It doesn't answer the question of where the universe came from, it merely extends the question.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2012, 05:19:05 AM »
To summarise my whole perspective...no matter how many scientists tell me its reasonable to believe that our world is random, I look at the world, I see design, I see a designer, and I believe Him to be God.

No. The world is not random. No scientist says the world is random. There are elements of randomness but the world was shaped by the fundamental forces and their interactions.

A tree doesn't just appear somewhere as it would in a truly random world. One can grow only where a seed fell and there is enough water and nutrients to fuel the plant. Similar statements can be made about all sorts of other elements of the world and universe.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Azdgari

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2012, 12:35:09 PM »
For the record, I know nothing of science and dislike the discipline intensely.

Can you define "science"?

I can tell you that when I think of science I have in mind observations and experiments, i have a vague understanding that these observations need to be repeated and have things like a hypothesis and controls.

I'm kind of over discussing science for now.

Science is what you use to determine truth from falsity in day-to-day life.

Since you are done discussing it, I take it you won't be participating in the thread.
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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2012, 01:33:02 PM »
It's not a slam dunk in favour of evolutionary theory.

You say this while admitting that your level of scientific understanding is extremely low.  I wonder then, mm, on what basis you say this?  You admit you are more or less completely unqualified to evaluate the idea.  It seems to me the proper thing to say would be "I have no idea", rather than make a judgment in ignorance.

I am not saying this to be derogatory or engage in debate.  I say this to help you see that you are making some rather fundamental errors in decision making.  I would think that if you take your religion seriously, you would be genuinely interested in it being correct. 

... many Christians will testify that their faith is based more on a genuine realtionship they experience with God.

Except the "relationship" they talk about is always a "relationship" has nothing in common whatsoever with any other relationship ever known to mankind.  In fact, it is as much a "relationship" as it is a "tomato" and they reason why they call it a "relationship" rather than a "tomato" is because "relationship" has a more serious adult sound to it.  It is impossible to be taken seriously if you talk about your "tomato with god".

I'm sure you've heard many accounts of how becoming a Christian has turned lives around in spectacular ways. I don't think that sort of thing can be dismissed so easily.

Yet I am sure you would easily dismiss similar testimonials about Islam, Buddhism or Pastafarianism.  Why is that?  I mean, if the Buddha transformed someone's life, there must (must, I tell you!) be something to it.  Right?

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2012, 01:42:04 PM »
Thats because I know God created the world,

No you don't.  You may think it.  You may fervently believe it.  You may hold it to be true with the totality of your being.  But you don't know it.


I know there are many of those who can present the evidence much better than me.

See above.

To summarise my whole perspective...no matter how many scientists tell me its reasonable to believe that our world is random, I look at the world, I see design, I see a designer, and I believe Him to be God.

So, in other words, you, the guy who said he knows squat about science, thinks he knows more about the mysteries of the universe than the millions of scientists who have ever lived, just because something "seems" a certain way to you.  How does this sound:  Scientists can talk about reasonable a spherical earth is, but I look at the world and I see flat land.  Does that seem reasonable, or stupid?

i believe reality more than theory.

No you don't.  You believe in your beliefs more than reality.  If you believed in reality - that is, if you were actually interested in believing in the best, most accurate explanation of reality - then you would be prepared to change your mind about what you believe.  If you believed in reality, then you would happily get rid of less accurate models of how the universe works.  In your quote above - the one where you summarize your perspective - you flatly reject that option. 

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Offline velkyn

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2012, 03:08:18 PM »
I think it's wrong to lie. I was just trying to  make a point.
My remark "I know as little as you" was childish and uncalled for and I apologise.
Not accepted.  I am fully sure you meant exactly what you wrote. 

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For the record, I know nothing of science and dislike the discipline intensely. ( having said that, I can read, and i see as many impressive letters after the names of the creation scientists as other scientists in the respective fields. I know they're massively outnumbered though )
I'm sure yuo do since it shows you are wrong about so many things.  I see that I was correct in not accepting any apology considering your ignorance about "letters" after the names of scientists.   I see nothing but a willful man who isn't willing to admit that he is wrong and keeps attempting to cling to his creationist lies.   I've seen the same lists of scientists that you have, with the claims that they support creationism.  Funny how their degrees are rarely of anyting that would give them any background in attacking evolutionary theory.  It's rather like assuming a auto mechanic should know all about pediatrics.  I certainly hope, if you have children, you don't take them to someone who professes an opinion but has no evidence of their claims, for their health.  Also on those lists are scientists are are long dead.  They simply didn't know any better.  Again, creationsts depend on the willful ignorance and laziness of their prey. 

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I don't try to make any other point other than the fact that the origin of the known universe cannot be explained scientiffically - in that 'something from nothing' has no alternate explanation other than a supernatural one. I beleive that supernatural is God...and I can't explain Him, but I can know Him.
  BS. YOu have tried to say that we don't know "x" and that means your god exists. You have said that evolutionary theory is flawed.   You depend on your endless strawmen arguments because you are too afraid to actually learn about the things you attack.  And whoodedo, one more theist who claism "I know God".  Yep, you claim this, the Muslims cliam this, the Hindus, etc and you all have no more evidence than the next theist.  There is no reason to think any of you correct.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 03:12:56 PM »
I can tell you that when I think of science I have in mind observations and experiments, i have a vague understanding that these observations need to be repeated and have things like a hypothesis and controls.

I'm kind of over discussing science for now.

awwww, poor thing. As soon as you are shown to be wrong, you want to run away.  Grow a pair, MM, if you have such great faith, surely a little education isn't so scary.  You benefit from science and the scientific method everyday.  YOU just whine when it shows your best invisible friend to be imaginary.  You claim that your god is real, but haven't one shred of evidence to support that, and you ignore anything that shows your religion to be just as beleivable as the next one.  Golly, Christians have major changes in their lives?  So do Muslims! So do Wicca!
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: abiogenesis, the origin of the universe and evolution
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2012, 09:33:09 AM »
To summarise my whole perspective...no matter how many scientists tell me its reasonable to believe that our world is random, I look at the world, I see design, I see a designer, and I believe Him to be God. i believe reality more than theory. If a GPS told me to continue straight for 100 meters but there was a lake in front of me I'd turn around.
No offence, but i'm going to post no more here, but certainly in other threads. Feel free to start a new one ;D

Wow,  talk about stubborn arrogance !

You don't "know" anything about god. As it stands, god is still in the "figment of the imagination" stage.

You're going to have to deal with the design and first cause arguments at some point. And so if that's your stance then--who designed the designer ? What caused god ?  To answer that you don't know how an invisible god could have always existed is a flat out admission of a massive failure in your ability to defend with conviction your hypothesis in general, and that there is zero evidence to do it otherwise on its own.

Again, you don't "know" anything about the existence of a god, and are running on feelings towards your wishful and servile imaginations.

I was a theist for 40 years and know that these feelings can run high and rampant.

Is that what you're prone to do ? Bail on thread that gets to hot to handle ?  &)
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.