Author Topic: Authority  (Read 2828 times)

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Authority
« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2012, 06:44:48 PM »
Albeto:
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Thanks.
You're welcome.

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I still maintain this is a hard-wiring issue which only complicates MM's premise.
You may be right. I just wanted to support MM on that minor point. Love of the underdog, or something...

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Authority
« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2012, 07:09:17 PM »
It's hard to submit to the authority God has because it so often rubs the wrong way with us, or we can't see why He would do things as He has. We ALWAYS think we know better.

Why do you think that is?  Why would an omnipotent creator would create mortal underlings, from whom he only desires blind obedience, that chafe at doing his will or fail to see the rationality of it?  Seems weird to me.  Like there is a serious disconnect in the story.


Here is a thought: what if we naturally submitted to authority, unquestioningly?  What problems might that cause?  I think this is one way it would show how resistance to authority can be explained in evolutionary terms.


Scenario: The law says that theft is outlawed. Somebody is caught stealing your car. It's returned to you undamaged. Which would you prefer:

As a guy whose job it is to fix problems, I cannot say either choice actually fixes the problem.  I need more information.  What was the root cause of the theft?  Was it because the guy was just a malicious twat?  Or was it something else?  Was he in need?  Did he see no other way?  One tool to help find root cause is to ask "why?" to each answer for five consecutive answers.  Once you find that, then you can prevent the problem from occurring again.

It isn't blind obedience. God isn't anonymous. You know this (at least, you know the Christian perspective ). So you know that we worship and obey a God who created evrything...and it's an amazing world. And He isn't content to let us wallow in our sin, which keeps us apart from Him - He provided a way back to Him. Not blind obedience.

And thats a good point about blindly following authority. in that regard aren't you glad you were born with an ability to obey or not obey God? And as much as we strive and desire to be able to rationalsie everything, it's just something we'll never be able to do.

What's your job, if you don't mind me asking?

Interesting to see your possible motives re/ the hypothetical theft: what do you mean "maybe the guy was just a malicious twat"?

How can there be such a thing in a world of objective morality? Sounds like you are referring to some  sort of absolute standard to me...
Even the best Christian can't really live up to what God's rules for living are.....why,you ask,because many of his "rules" either contradict what he ordered or are abandoned by a civilized society because they are just plain wrong.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2012, 11:18:36 PM »
we're just back to having different explanations of the same behaviours.

No, we're not. If humans shared an innate moral compass, they would all agree on what's right and wrong. They don't, so it doesn't exist.

If you can't, or won't, see that there are many moral values shared by every society throughout time then I guess you just have to disagree with me. No big deal. I'm still having fun discussing it.

I can't make much ground on the subject of a 'moral compass' if you insist on being the one to define what it is can I?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2012, 11:25:58 PM »
magicmiles,

I don't know any atheists who believe in "nothingness".  So kindly stop pretending to know something that you obviously do not know.  That being what atheists believe.

I will make this simple.  Atheism, disbelief in a god or gods.

You believe in your god.  Wonderful.  We don't believe your god exists.  The only way you have the right to heap beliefs upon us regarding your god, is to show us that it exists.  Doing this will cause some fairly significant changes in many of us.  If there was a god, we would not be atheists.

It has been thousands and thousands of years since humans invented gods, and to this day, none have been shown to exist.  Even though billions believe, and millions have tried to force others to also believe.  Yet here we are, staring at a still empty assertion, with not a single piece of evidence for an existing god, as well as little to no reason to even posit one in modern humanity.

We have to live with, and get along with the deluded masses.  This is not our problem.  We reject the silly ideas of gods, you know, the ones that throw lightning bolts, and the ones that give their messages to single people in remote locations, so that all humans can know of their existence.  Mohammed, Moses, Joseph Smith...etc.  The gods that do magic in front of plenty of humans in ancient times, but are now absent from doing so in modern times.  Gods that lurk in gardens, asking "where are you" to it's first two human inhabitants, and who ask individuals to kill their child to show their dedication.

I could go on about the virgin births, the raising from the dead, the genocides, the animal sacrifice...

Atheists do not believe in nothingness, which implies that believers believe in something greater, or better.  And it irks me when people like you step into a forum and make such condescending and thoughtless statements.  It makes you look like you could truly care less, and that you are here to put us in our place.  Show me your god.  Or as they say in Internet speak....tits, or GTFO.

I'm making every effort to be respectful and courteous. Of course I will make incorrect assumptions..why can;t you just point them out politely?

I'm not here to preach....not at all. I simply enjoy discussing these type of things with those with a deifferent perspective.

If I'm that offensive just ban me or stop replying to me, but I hope to continue in here as there are many interesting topics. I'm slowly reading them all.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2012, 11:30:46 PM »
we do all manner of things to try and redress the consequences of our self-interest. And what drives that?

Self interest.
 
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In a previous thread you mentioned that you made a sacrifice for your wife in respect of parenting choices. That's an attempt to put her desires first, which is great, but it wasn't an entirely selfless act either

Exactly.

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- i'm sure that you anticipate she will also make a similar concession to your benefit down the track,

That's how I thought it would be but I understand, now, how naive I was.  :P

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The key thing is...even though your action there might ultimately have been one of self-interest, there was definitely an element and attempt to be selfless.

Not really. The key thing is, you are saying that in order to serve YOUR self interest.
 
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I'm very fortunate to live in a stable, wealthy country with a job and enough money to live comfortably. The consequences of my self-interest are less obvious but still very real.

Your self interest is not so mysterious as you might imagine. If enough people in the world could just understand and see things the way you do we could all get along.

Edit to add:

I believe you are using your idea of God as a proxy to disguise your own self interest in an effort to give your self interest  credit as a selfless act. It's a circular sort of thing since theists use self projection to define what their God *really* wants in the first place.

The point I was trying to make, possibly not very well, is that it seems strange that we would fight against self-interest if the self-interest is an evolutionary trait present to ensure we continue as a species. Sort of like an attempt at evolutionary suicide.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2012, 11:37:32 PM »

Totally agree with the first part of your post.

Sorry, but I just don't understand the second part of your post. Would you mind trying to maybe explain differently?

Did Astreja's post help?  Primate behavior is a fascinating study.  You go to the monkey house of your local zoo and you'll see some monkeys are more aggressive than others.  The aggressive ones will fight over any resource, first dibs on food, a particular mate, the best place to sit in the tree.  They'll enforce their dominance at any time, willing to back it up with a fight if someone challenges them.  And there are those who are naturally aggressive who will make the challenge, but this is a small percentage of the population. On the other side of the bell curve of personality are those who are completely subservient and dependent upon others' for virtually everything.  They will not challenge and willingly submit to any demand.  Most are in the middle (thus, the bell curve), with stronger tendencies one way or the other but in minute differences. 

A community that works this way is best suited for survival and passing on its genetic code (further generations with the same intrinsic behaviors).  If too many are aggressive, the fighting within the tribe reduces the numbers to the point where another tribe fighting for resources will have them outnumbered and they'll be forced to flee.  Too many submissive members will keep the fighting down but when other tribes try to take over the local resources, they are incapable of adequate defense and again, will not likely pass on this submissive genetic code.  Tribes with a healthy bell curve of intrinsic behaviors between aggressive and submissive will be far more cohesive and able to withstand outside aggression, have access to the best resources available, and continue the genetic code through generations upon generations.

Humans are primates and the same general idea applies.  We are social creatures. We are internally driven to be only so aggressive and only so submissive and those of us who have access to the best resources will be more likely to preserve that community.  Humans have adapted a complex language to accompany this natural behavior and so we tend to formalize those behaviors that our community has "always done."  In Asian, it should come as no surprise that communities living in a very populated way, learn to be subservient to those who are most aggressive.  Eventually this translates to the Emperor system with millions of loyal subjects.  In Europe, where land was plentiful, the idea of self-sufficiency was far more suitable to the environment.  It should come as no surprise that we descendants of the land of the Norse and Goths value personal liberty over than loyalty to the aggressive members.   It should come as no surprise that the Christian religion took off in Europe.  The resources allowed it to thrive in ways it simply couldn't in Africa or Asia.  It should come as no surprise that it feels only natural and right to you.  You've been conditioned since day one to believe this stuff and you're surrounded by people who also believe it.

Interesting yes, compelling as an explanation of what drives human behaviour, no ( not for me )

My responses to Jaybwell32 are relevant here also.

Would also like to pont out that no Christian, unless they pretty much live in a commune with no outside interaction, is surrounded by people who believe as they do. Quite the opposite.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Authority
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2012, 11:38:39 PM »

I'm making every effort to be respectful and courteous. Of course I will make incorrect assumptions..why can;t you just point them out politely?

I'm not here to preach....not at all. I simply enjoy discussing these type of things with those with a deifferent perspective.

If I'm that offensive just ban me or stop replying to me, but I hope to continue in here as there are many interesting topics. I'm slowly reading them all.

Fair enough.  I hope you will see some better sides to atheists than you may have heard about.  Yes, there are definitely atheists who act like jackasses - I believe I have done so in the past.  :-[

But ultimately, we are every bit as concerned about the world we live in, and those we have to live with, as anyone else with a god belief. 

It is difficult, I think, to describe what it might be like to "not believe in gods, or higher powers".  And I can see why some theists would have a hard time understanding exactly what we think is there, if not a higher power.  To many of us, the answer is a resounding "I don't know".  For others, it is the edge of scientific knowledge.  And for some, it is perhaps a bit more nihilistic, I suppose.

I can say that I don't want to die.  I'm not afraid to die at the moment, but I'd rather go on living.  I have also thought about living eternally, and I don't know how to grasp what that entails.  I find it impossible to imagine living forever.  Maybe it would be awesome?  But for my finite mind, it seems like it would get boring - especially since humans struggle so hard to get along.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2012, 11:40:31 PM »
MM do you follow all laws from authority for fear of punishment......or do you follow some and ignore others? A speed limit is put in place on most roads of the world,because the authorities want to keep you and others safe. Many people ignore these laws and go over the limit.....the penalty is minor,perhaps a small fine,so people take that risk.

 Drunk driving is illeagal,even though the penalty is more severe some still risk it,,then we can move on to other laws like rape and murder. The laws for these crimes is severe,and so is the punishment,but it hardly stops some from the risk of doing it

 The Question is not authority,but wether or not you get caught.

I folow some and ignore others, absolutely. Mainly because I think some laws are stupid and that I'm no hurting anybody by breaking them. I'm wrong to do so however, and I give myself regular uppercuts.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2012, 11:43:26 PM »
I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.
What good would a moral compass do if we didn't also have a moral map. And don't claim the bible is one. Your god couldn't even give Moses and his peeps a map to get out of the frickin' desert.

Analogy-wise, you could say societies provide both a moral compass and a map to use it with. It's just that some folks have no sense of direction, so moral compasses are sometimes inadequate. But again, only as an analogy. Don't start thinking it is real.

There are people who know they are doing bad things, and that they might get caught (or imagine that they never will), and they do the bad stuff until the do get caught or they die. There are people who would like to do bad things but don't because they don't want to go to jail. And there are people who simply wouldn't do bad things because the understand the concept of right and wrong and agree with it.

Al Capone and my Grandma Floy did not have the same moral compass. I guarantee it.

OK. I won't claim the bible is one.

And my best regards to your Grandma Floy ;D
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Authority
« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2012, 11:47:20 PM »
so in that example, your ex's self-interest in his martial arts school appears to have been the real problem.

Not quite.  As I see it, it was My own lack of assertiveness in the situation that actually caused the suffering. It's noteworthy that as soon as I did choose to become selfish, My situation improved almost overnight.  It wasn't possible to change the other people in the situation (not just ex, but several other individuals who wanted My assistance).  It was almost trivially easy to change Myself, so that's where the real power lay all along.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Authority
« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2012, 01:53:53 AM »
The point I was trying to make, possibly not very well, is that it seems strange that we would fight against self-interest if the self-interest is an evolutionary trait present to ensure we continue as a species. Sort of like an attempt at evolutionary suicide.

You are oversimplifying something you don't completely understand or acknowlede. First, there is individual self interest. This seems to be the one you are focusing on. Second, there is a societies self interest. This is what you don't seem to be acknowledging. Third would be a species wide collective self interest. We ain't there yet. Fourth would be the self interest of life as a whole. After that is probably what you think of as God.

It was explained to you that time has shown us, through the process of evolution, that a group of individuals who extend their self interest towards others in the group and cooperate with each other have a greater chance of surving as a group. You can't stamp out the indiviual self interest aspect but you can, as a group, decide what is in the groups best interest. If an individual chooses to ignore the socially accepted and agreed upon morals of the society, they do so at their own risk and greatly increase their chance of being culled from the herd. 

You seem to be suggesting that our "morals" come from somewhere outside of our own minds and experience. Further, I detect that you believe people who do not "see" things the way you "see" things are part of the problem.[1]

Before I go any further with this conversation I need to know if my assesment of your view is anywhere near accurate.
 1. i.e. Individual self interest
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2012, 03:04:24 AM »
Yes, I certainly believe that our morals come from an outside source. That's a given for a Christian, obviously - the bible says we were created knowing right from wrong. But I know I can't discus the issue from that perspective here, so I have been trying to discuss it more from an individual perspective - by that I mean, trying to isolate what we do, think and feel as individuals, and trying to grasp why that is.

I certainly understand what you are saying, and you make a strong case. I just feel though that it doesn't really explain a lot of our behaviour. In fact I think it goes much deeper than observable social behaviour but rather is rooted in our feelings. ( I'd like to say morals are 'written in our hearts', but I'm trying to keep my darwins to a minimum ).

Re/ sensing that others who don't see things my way being part of the problem, i don't think that is the case. I do believe that I'm no different to most people in terms of my reactions to authority, reactions to injustice and evil, desire to be a better person - i base that belief on my interactions with people over 30 years.

And I just think that there are so many behaviours that we recognise instictively as being wrong, and would do regardless of what we had been taught.

This whole subject is a difficult thing for me to try and communicate my perspective on, and I'm starting to run out of puff, truth be told. Theres a lot of other stuff on this site thats piqued my interest.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2012, 03:43:52 AM »
I've just put Empire Strikes back on the DVD player - my son is watching it for the first time as I type ( he's 6 )

And it occurred to me that some of the most popular movies and books over the years have been ones where good battles evil and triumphs - they capture the imagination like nothing else. As well as star wars things like the Narnia and Harry Potter series spring to mind.

And I think that is some sort of confirmation that 'right' and 'wrong' are woven into our fabric much more deeply and unexplainably than the evolutioary behaviours being discussed here.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Authority
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2012, 04:47:44 AM »
If you can't, or won't, see that there are many moral values shared by every society throughout time <snip>

Really? Give me one example.

I can't make much ground on the subject of a 'moral compass' if you insist on being the one to define what it is can I?

Define what a moral compass is, then.
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Offline grant

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Re: Authority
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2012, 04:59:30 AM »
And I think that is some sort of confirmation that 'right' and 'wrong' are woven into our fabric much more deeply and unexplainably than the evolutioary behaviours being discussed here.

You're still "thinking" - bad move.

"Feel" or "hope" or "wish" would be a better description I "think".

Can you please tone up the language a bit too? "unexplainably" and "evolutioary" hurt my brain.

What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2012, 05:09:31 AM »
If you can't, or won't, see that there are many moral values shared by every society throughout time <snip>

Really? Give me one example.

I can't make much ground on the subject of a 'moral compass' if you insist on being the one to define what it is can I?

Define what a moral compass is, then.

Things such as  theft, lying, murder, cheating.

Maybe compass is the wrong word for what I'm trying to get across. I'll give it some thought.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Authority
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2012, 05:23:52 AM »
Things such as  theft,

Catholicism has a history of stealing children from their "unfit" parents. And, since catholicism was the basis for many societies, it's fair to say that those societies approved of that behaviour.

lying,

Parents lying to their children to "protect" them has always been accepted by all societies.

murder,

No. Just... no. We have killed (and still do kill) each other.

cheating.

What do you mean? Cheating on your spouse? Obviously the people who do it don't think it's wrong. Cheating on tests? Same thing.

Maybe compass is the wrong word for what I'm trying to get across. I'll give it some thought.

Define it then. That's what I asked for anyway.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2012, 05:39:36 AM »
I didn't try and say the behaviours were absent, rather that most everybody throughout the world and history recognises those behaviours as being wrong. I couldn't disagree more that somebody doing something means they think it's not wrong. When you do the wrong thing don't you know it? I sure do.

I'm just going to call it a good old fashioned conscience.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Authority
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2012, 05:43:32 AM »
I didn't try and say the behaviours were absent, rather that most everybody throughout the world and history recognises those behaviours as being wrong.

So right and wrong are subjective, not objective. Subjective means that "right" and "wrong" don't actually exist; just people who think that a certain action is good and that a different action is bad.

I couldn't disagree more that somebody doing something means they think it's not wrong. When you do the wrong thing don't you know it? I sure do.

When you do it repeatedly and without feeling regret? You either think it's right or are a complete retard.

I'm just going to call it a good old fashioned conscience.

If by "conscience" you mean "the opinion that a certain behaviour is right and that another behaviour is wrong", then you're right.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2012, 06:07:33 AM »
What I meant was that, for example, I don't believe somebody who habitually cheats on their spouse or partner doesn't know on some level that they are doing the wrong thing. We're good at justifying our mis-deeds, true, but on some level at least I believe we know we're doing wrong. Yes, there are exceptions of course.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Authority
« Reply #107 on: January 16, 2012, 07:24:32 AM »
Yes, I certainly believe that our morals come from an outside source. That's a given for a Christian, obviously - the bible says we were created knowing right from wrong.

The bible says no such thing.  Quite the contrary, it says that we were created without the knowledge of right and wrong, and that we only got that knowledge by disobeying Yahweh's order not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Authority
« Reply #108 on: January 16, 2012, 07:26:26 AM »
And I think that is some sort of confirmation that 'right' and 'wrong' are woven into our fabric much more deeply and unexplainably than the evolutioary behaviours being discussed here.

I'm curious, then, as to how you would address the fact that cooperation and fair play are not solely human concepts.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Authority
« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2012, 12:08:41 PM »
It isn't blind obedience.

It is.  There is lots of scripture to support that view, but that really isn't the point.  Why would an omnipotent being make underlings so rebellious when he wants their obedience[1]?  Ostensibly he could have made us any way he wanted.  He could have made us completely happy[2] to do whatever he said, but he didn't.  Instead he made us rebellious and then infinitely punishes us for rebellion.  That should strike you as odd if not completely unfair. 

And thats a good point about blindly following authority. in that regard aren't you glad you were born with an ability to obey or not obey God?

If for the sake of argument I assume there actually is a god, no.  I'd be pissed.  It would mean I was designed by him to not want to obey him.   His rules are difficult enough to follow, I do not need the handicap of inherently not wanting to follow anyone's rules.  And the consequences of not obeying him is infinite suffering.  I find that particularly unfair, especially when the game is rigged against me. 


And as much as we strive and desire to be able to rationalsie everything, it's just something we'll never be able to do.

I do not understand what you mean by this.

What's your job, if you don't mind me asking?

mechanical engineer and lean six sigma black belt.

Interesting to see your possible motives re/ the hypothetical theft: what do you mean "maybe the guy was just a malicious twat"?

Some people are assholes.  Some people steal things because they do not care about other people.

How can there be such a thing in a world of objective morality? Sounds like you are referring to some  sort of absolute standard to me...

eh?  I am talking about personalities, not moralities.
 1. blind or not
 2. but still have a choice to do or not do what he demands
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Authority
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2012, 12:28:49 PM »
And I think that is some sort of confirmation that 'right' and 'wrong' are woven into our fabric much more deeply and unexplainably than the evolutioary behaviours being discussed here.

I disagree.  I think our primitive brains like easy answers.  Right and Wrong is short hand for "things that promote survival of the species" and "things that do not". 

There will always be tension between the individual and the species in group animals.  That is reflected in our conflicting ethics.  In our society we lionize the soldier who dives on the grenade, sacrificing himself for the platoon.  We make heroes out of the parents who sacrifice for their children.  But we also promote selfishness and an every-man-for-himself attitudes.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Authority
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2012, 01:03:42 PM »
What I meant was that, for example, I don't believe somebody who habitually cheats on their spouse or partner doesn't know on some level that they are doing the wrong thing. We're good at justifying our mis-deeds, true, but on some level at least I believe we know we're doing wrong. Yes, there are exceptions of course.

The very act of "cheating" means they're trying to do the right thing.  You're just identifying the "right" from the "wrong" differently.  Subjectively. 

Offline albeto

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Re: Authority
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2012, 01:07:08 PM »
Would also like to pont out that no Christian, unless they pretty much live in a commune with no outside interaction, is surrounded by people who believe as they do. Quite the opposite.

If you're an American living in America (my apologies for that assumption), you are surrounded by people who believe as you do - there is an extra-terrestrial being that is not only cognizant of you but somehow wants good things for you, and it is possible to interact with this being in some way.  If you want to get into details, yeah, no one but you is going to believe what you do.  So why would we take your word for it when every other theist wants us to take their word for it? 

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2012, 03:46:55 PM »
And I think that is some sort of confirmation that 'right' and 'wrong' are woven into our fabric much more deeply and unexplainably than the evolutioary behaviours being discussed here.

I'm curious, then, as to how you would address the fact that cooperation and fair play are not solely human concepts.



I'm not especially curious about that. God created aniamls also, and some very closely resemble human social behaviour and intelligence.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2012, 08:27:07 PM »
Thanks for all your replies, which I won't respond to individually on this thread anymore - it's time for me to move on to some other discussions.

I respect your viewpoints even if I don't share them ( thats not to say I don't also sometimes wonder why God didn't do things differently - Christians are equally flummoxed by God, but choose to trust Him )

See you in some other threads no doubt.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Authority
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2012, 02:28:24 PM »
MM, are you simply trying to see if atheists will obey authority to confirm your personal belief that atheists simply don't want to beleive in god since that will keep us from eating babies and molesting puppies? 

Your claims that everyone rebells the same way for the same reason is pretty much emblematic of a Christian who want to believe that atheists "really really do believe" in order to get some external validation for yourself.   You can't seem to imagine anyone disbleiving in your sky spook for very good reasons.  You have to make believe that everyone is as much of a jackass as you appear to be calling yourself.

No Velkyn

I don't require any validation. I enjoy putting forward my rationale for God and engaging in debate, provided it is relatively civil.

As an aside, "sky spook" and "sky fairy" are pretty lame terms and somewhat childish for such a professional site, IMO

that's hilarious.   Professional site?  Golly, MM, it's an internet forum.   Your rationale is that some magical being in the sky exists and we should be worshipping it.   This invisible friend of yours is somehow better and more valid than the gods of the thousands of other religions in the world, which you don't believe in.  You think them just as much fictional characters as I find yours and you get perturbed that your special one is called "sky fairy" and "sky spook".  Well, MM, show evidence it exists, and isn't just as ridiculous as Tinkerbell or the boogeyman and then you might have a leg to stand on. As it stands, you are arm in arm with any other believer in the supernatural.

brave brave Sir Robin.  Can't have you actually defend your nonsense, you just have to find out that people expect you to defend your nonsense and then you must skip away, claiming that you only wanted to see others' opinions. 
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