Author Topic: Authority  (Read 2829 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2012, 04:37:17 AM »
Hi Albeto

Some generalisations in your comments aren't there? For one, I've never found it especially 'emotionally rewaring' when I tell friends and family that their actions and thoughts all fall short of the standard God demands. Even in an anonymous environment such as this...read back through the responses i have received in my short time ion the site and just imagine at how emotionally rich I've become (although I guess a case could be made that, given I enjoy debates, it isn't a burden either. But you get my point I'm sure )

You can't help the way the brain works.  Your frontal cortex makes the choice for you, and apparently the angst of sitting on this information is greater than the discomfort of embarrassing yourself and telling people what your superstition says.  The emotional reward is avoiding that anxiety for keeping your mouth shut and letting people do their own thing. 

Christianity is a very difficult faith to live out. I imagine atheism is far more emotionally rewarding, as messages such as "you are not ultimately accountable to anyone for your mis-deeds" is far more palatable.

Even atheists get the idea of consequences to behaviors.  We just don't agree that the accountability happens after you take your last breath. 

And your musings on my suspected ignoring of a cognitive dissonance are somewhat insulting. Is it not possible that instead of 'ignoring" any such cognitive dissonance I have instead embraced it, explored all possible sides of the matter thoroughly, and come out the other side even more confident in my position?

No, it isn't possible.  So long as you believe the delusion of this superstition, any exploration you make must by necessity take place within the safe parameters of that delusion.  Rather than conceive the idea that your god is imaginary and the character of Jesus in the bible never existed in the first place, you try to work out these inconsistencies within the framework of a god that is Mysterious But Ultimately Good.

And please explain to me how God can be cruel when, by your explantion of right and wrong, He has merely achieved His goals successfully?

I mean...surely there couldn't be some sort of inherent cruelty in the world could there? not in a world where all we do is act and react so as to increase pleasure, my friend.

God can't be cruel because it doesn't actually exist.  The "inherent cruelty in the world" is based on natural inconveniences as well as a lack of mutual respect with regard to conflict resolution.  What's "good" for one culture, community or person may be "cruel" to another culture, community, or person.  That doesn't make it inherently cruel, it makes it problematic.  I imagine you don't think you're a cruel person at all but if you were to look at your slavery footprint, you'll likely find dozens of people (mostly children) work for less than adequate income or no income at all.   

Have YOU fully explored the dissonace here?

For years.  I even "trusted God" when I had lost all reason to trust, when faith was gone, I took it as a "dark night of the soul" kind of experience.  So yeah, I explored the dissonance here, and eventually I allowed myself to imagine the possibility god doesn't actually exist.  You can do that too.  If God is real, surely he can handle you interpreting the world as if evidence actually mattered and faith was unnecessarily applied.

I'm quite willing to accept that you've given both belief in God  and belief in nothingness equal consideration - it's frustrating that you aren't willing to accept that I have, also. Really, does your dismissal of my claim in that regard amount to anything more than "you can't have looked at my perspective properly, or you would share my perspective"?

I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Authority
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2012, 05:25:06 AM »
Those tribes and communities that survived internal conflict were those tribes and communities that had more socially interdependent individuals than those tribes and communities that had more independent, aggressive individuals.

^^^ This.  (And not just internal conflict, but external ones as well.)

My hypothesis regarding the reasons we tend to see social interdependence in virtually every culture:
  • Interdependence accelerates the development of a culture and its technology, and also protects it from harm.  10 people can dig an irrigation ditch much more effectively than 1 person.  100 warriors in an organized unit are more likely to successfully defend a town than 100 warriors fighting 100 independent battles.
  • "Every man for himself" cultures tend to fail very early and not leave any trace, either because the disorganization did not allow them to produce anything of lasting benefit, or because it wasn't even possible to identify them as a group.
In other words, there is a natural bias towards morality and cooperation because the alternative simply isn't all that viable.
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Offline grant

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Re: Authority
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2012, 05:28:39 AM »
Your signature "Believe in what we don't believe in!" says more about you than what you're actually saying.

Santa? Unicorns? Leprechauns even?

What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?

Offline Astreja

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Re: Authority
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2012, 05:32:00 AM »
I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.

Whereas I know full well that I am not particularly cruel or selfish, regardless of religion's attempts to tell Me otherwise.  If you and I do indeed have the same moral compass, they must be pointing to different magnetic poles.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Authority
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2012, 05:33:55 AM »
I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.

Explain sociopaths and psychopaths.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2012, 05:48:11 AM »
I contend that all the horrible things experienced in this world are a result of self-interest, directly or in-directly. Self-interest leaves an over-whelmingly large percentage of the worlds population in a dreadful state.

I'm going to have to disagree with the assertion "all the horrible things."  I've personally experienced a lot of nastiness precisely because I deferred self-interest in favour of helping other people.  IMO there has to be a balance between self and other, not just give-give-give and accept nothing in return...

...Or, as I sometimes like to put it, "The lifeguard has to know how to swim."  Sometimes you do have to put yourself first, and I see nothing whatsoever wrong with self-interest as long as it isn't actively harming someone else.

sorry, i missed this before. Thanks for your response.

Interesting perspective...do you mind sharing an example?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2012, 05:54:05 AM »
We live in a world filled with some seriously horrible stuff. I contend that all the horrible things experienced in this world are a result of self-interest, directly or in-directly. Self-interest leaves an over-whelmingly large percentage of the worlds population in a dreadful state.

Yep.  That's part of human behavior.  We are inspired to be autonomous and independent.  When we have the resources to achieve our goals, and these resources include not only the right kind of food and weapons, but also executive functioning skills, we have the advantage over those who don't have access to the same resources.  You might want to check out the documentary or book called Guns Germs and Steel.  This offers ideas about the distribution of these resources on a global scale.   

And here's the thing...we don't accept that as being right or natural. We hate seeing distress, we hate seeing pain, we hate seeing injustice. We try to alleviate it. Our actions demonstrate that "it's just the way it is" does not cut the mustard. We sponsor children, we donate our time, we do all manner of things to try and redress the consequences of our self-interest. And what drives that? How can that be explained from an evolutionary perspective?

Because we are also social creatures.  Those tribes and communities that survived internal conflict were those tribes and communities that had more socially interdependent individuals than those tribes and communities that had more independent, aggressive individuals.  In other words, it's natural to see "us" be safe and not suffer.  In our global culture, we see those people who were once understood to be "them" are actually "us" even if they are on the other side of political boundaries.


Totally agree with the first part of your post.

Sorry, but I just don't understand the second part of your post. Would you mind trying to maybe explain differently?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2012, 05:59:57 AM »
I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.

Whereas I know full well that I am not particularly cruel or selfish, regardless of religion's attempts to tell Me otherwise.  If you and I do indeed have the same moral compass, they must be pointing to different magnetic poles.

"particularly". There's always degrees, but I doubt a person has existed that wasn't cruel in some way or other on occasion.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Authority
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2012, 06:02:08 AM »
I've personally experienced a lot of nastiness precisely because I deferred self-interest in favour of helping other people.

Interesting perspective...do you mind sharing an example?

Sure.  I used to be married, and My ex's dream was to run a martial arts school.  I supported his goals to the point where I was giving up a large chunk of My paycheck to make sure the rent and utilities got paid for his school.  At one point it got so bad that I didn't have money for pantyhose or laundry soap, and My appearance at work began to suffer.  It also put such demands on My time that I couldn't pursue things that I wanted to do.

Something similar, but not nearly as extreme, happened with a couple of volunteer groups.  I did a lot of unpaid work for no personal benefit.

I regained My own life when I finally learned how to say "No," and stuck to it.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2012, 06:07:39 AM »
I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.

Explain sociopaths and psychopaths.

Well, psychiatrists all tend to agree that they actually don't have a sense of right and wrong. i can't explain that...but it's hardly something to hang your hat on if you're trying to argue that there's no morall compass at all
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Authority
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2012, 06:09:45 AM »
There's always degrees, but I doubt a person has existed that wasn't cruel in some way or other on occasion.

Granted, but I don't think it's a good idea to define ourselves in overly extreme terms.  Do I do good things?  Yes.  Do I do bad things?  Yes.  Neither behaviour is negated by the presence of the other, although if one were able to find an "average" personal behaviour there would be people all over the scale.

However, I think that the average societal behaviour is biased at least slightly towards the "good" end of the scale.  If not, our culture wouldn't have lasted this long.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2012, 06:14:52 AM »
I've personally experienced a lot of nastiness precisely because I deferred self-interest in favour of helping other people.

Interesting perspective...do you mind sharing an example?

Sure.  I used to be married, and My ex's dream was to run a martial arts school.  I supported his goals to the point where I was giving up a large chunk of My paycheck to make sure the rent and utilities got paid for his school.  At one point it got so bad that I didn't have money for pantyhose or laundry soap, and My appearance at work began to suffer.  It also put such demands on My time that I couldn't pursue things that I wanted to do.

Something similar, but not nearly as extreme, happened with a couple of volunteer groups.  I did a lot of unpaid work for no personal benefit.

I regained My own life when I finally learned how to say "No," and stuck to it.

Thanks.

so in that example, your ex's self-interest in his martial arts school appears to have been the real problem.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Authority
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2012, 06:18:07 AM »
Well, psychiatrists all tend to agree that they actually don't have a sense of right and wrong. i can't explain that...but it's hardly something to hang your hat on if you're trying to argue that there's no morall compass at all

Really? Well, first you should retract the following statement, since, by your own admission, it's not true:

I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass.

Now then, if there was an innate moral compass, every single human on the planet would think that X was wrong and Y was right. They don't. Therefore we can conclude that no moral compass exists.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2012, 06:29:31 AM »
Well, psychiatrists all tend to agree that they actually don't have a sense of right and wrong. i can't explain that...but it's hardly something to hang your hat on if you're trying to argue that there's no morall compass at all

Really? Well, first you should retract the following statement, since, by your own admission, it's not true:

I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass.

Now then, if there was an innate moral compass, every single human on the planet would think that X was wrong and Y was right. They don't. Therefore we can conclude that no moral compass exists.

I'm reasonably sure that's a logical fallacy of some type, but I'm too lazy to check.

In any event, I have never attempted to say that all humans agree on what is right and wrong in every instance, but there are defintely certain things which the vast majority of societies recognise as right and wrong.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Authority
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2012, 06:34:33 AM »
I'm reasonably sure that's a logical fallacy of some type, but I'm too lazy to check.

That seems unlikely. Care to describe it?

In any event, I have never attempted to say that all humans agree on what is right and wrong in every instance,

Id est: That they share an innate moral compass (which was, in fact, your argument).

but there are defintely certain things which the vast majority of societies recognise as right and wrong.

So there's no innate moral compass, just people who agree on subjective concepts.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2012, 06:37:38 AM »
we're just back to having different explanations of the same behaviours.

I'm out for a while again...see you all soon.
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Re: Authority
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2012, 06:42:44 AM »
we're just back to having different explanations of the same behaviours.

No, we're not. If humans shared an innate moral compass, they would all agree on what's right and wrong. They don't, so it doesn't exist.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Authority
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2012, 08:22:33 AM »
Some people

No, we're not. If humans shared an innate moral compass, they would all agree on what's right and wrong. They don't, so it doesn't exist.

Some people actually believe that what is really wrong is really right. So not everyone can agree what right and wrong is in reality anyway.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Authority
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2012, 08:44:20 AM »
For one, I've never found it especially 'emotionally rewaring' when I tell friends and family that their actions and thoughts all fall short of the standard God demands.

If so, you are to be commended.  Many of your fellow Christians are not so distraught when telling us that we are doomed to eternal hellfire.  A good number of them express overwhelming glee at the prospect.  Some even tell us that they are going to pray for our deaths so that our torture may begin as soon as possible.

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Christianity is a very difficult faith to live out.

That may be your view, but it is certainly not the view of all Christians.  I had a roommate, for example, who was among the more "severe" bible-thumpers you're ever likely to meet, and his view was that being a Christian required no action or behavior of any kind at all -- that belief was all that was demanded of the Christian.  Apart from the fact that you can't choose your beliefs, that's childishly easy.

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I imagine atheism is far more emotionally rewarding, as messages such as "you are not ultimately accountable to anyone for your mis-deeds" is far more palatable.

Oh, did an atheist say this to you?  Who was it?  Please point me in his/her direction, so I can provide some enlightenment.

(Interestingly, though... my Christian ex-roommate would actually be more likely to say this than I, an atheist, would.  In his view, as I said, belief is all that is required; you can commit as many rapes, murders, and robberies as you like, and if you believe Jesus died for your sins, you're all set -- you don't even have to apologize for anything you do wrong, let alone pay any kind of a price or penalty for it.)

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And your musings on my suspected ignoring of a cognitive dissonance are somewhat insulting.

The kettle's telephone rings.  He picks it up.

"Hello?"

"Yes, hello... kettle?  This is the pot.  You're black."

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And please explain to me how God can be cruel

According to the bible, Yahweh prescribes the death penalty for pretty much everything except jaywalking, and even that is probably only because walk signals hadn't been invented yet.  If that's not cruel, I don't know what is.

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I mean...surely there couldn't be some sort of inherent cruelty in the world could there?

Not in a world where there exists an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being, no...
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Offline jetson

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Re: Authority
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2012, 09:35:41 AM »
magicmiles,

I don't know any atheists who believe in "nothingness".  So kindly stop pretending to know something that you obviously do not know.  That being what atheists believe.

I will make this simple.  Atheism, disbelief in a god or gods.

You believe in your god.  Wonderful.  We don't believe your god exists.  The only way you have the right to heap beliefs upon us regarding your god, is to show us that it exists.  Doing this will cause some fairly significant changes in many of us.  If there was a god, we would not be atheists.

It has been thousands and thousands of years since humans invented gods, and to this day, none have been shown to exist.  Even though billions believe, and millions have tried to force others to also believe.  Yet here we are, staring at a still empty assertion, with not a single piece of evidence for an existing god, as well as little to no reason to even posit one in modern humanity.

We have to live with, and get along with the deluded masses.  This is not our problem.  We reject the silly ideas of gods, you know, the ones that throw lightning bolts, and the ones that give their messages to single people in remote locations, so that all humans can know of their existence.  Mohammed, Moses, Joseph Smith...etc.  The gods that do magic in front of plenty of humans in ancient times, but are now absent from doing so in modern times.  Gods that lurk in gardens, asking "where are you" to it's first two human inhabitants, and who ask individuals to kill their child to show their dedication.

I could go on about the virgin births, the raising from the dead, the genocides, the animal sacrifice...

Atheists do not believe in nothingness, which implies that believers believe in something greater, or better.  And it irks me when people like you step into a forum and make such condescending and thoughtless statements.  It makes you look like you could truly care less, and that you are here to put us in our place.  Show me your god.  Or as they say in Internet speak....tits, or GTFO.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Authority
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2012, 11:27:21 AM »
we do all manner of things to try and redress the consequences of our self-interest. And what drives that?

Self interest.
 
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In a previous thread you mentioned that you made a sacrifice for your wife in respect of parenting choices. That's an attempt to put her desires first, which is great, but it wasn't an entirely selfless act either

Exactly.

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- i'm sure that you anticipate she will also make a similar concession to your benefit down the track,

That's how I thought it would be but I understand, now, how naive I was.  :P

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The key thing is...even though your action there might ultimately have been one of self-interest, there was definitely an element and attempt to be selfless.

Not really. The key thing is, you are saying that in order to serve YOUR self interest.
 
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I'm very fortunate to live in a stable, wealthy country with a job and enough money to live comfortably. The consequences of my self-interest are less obvious but still very real.

Your self interest is not so mysterious as you might imagine. If enough people in the world could just understand and see things the way you do we could all get along.

Edit to add:

I believe you are using your idea of God as a proxy to disguise your own self interest in an effort to give your self interest  credit as a selfless act. It's a circular sort of thing since theists use self projection to define what their God *really* wants in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 01:10:55 PM by jaybwell32 »
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Offline albeto

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Re: Authority
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2012, 12:35:47 PM »
I'm quite willing to accept that you've given both belief in God  and belief in nothingness equal consideration - it's frustrating that you aren't willing to accept that I have, also.

I do believe you have, but the nature of your faith requires the safety parameters to be maintained.  Your consideration is limited and will be limited only until A) enough chinks in the wall make a crack large enough to see light, or B) you have an emotional experience that negates the need for evidence (such as "evidence" exists within the Christian groupthink).  You're a big boy, no one here is going to hold your hand through that process.  It's up to you to see it for what it is or avoid it and focus on the emotional rewards, ie, feelings of safety, security, or whatever it is that makes the faith valuable to you.

Really, does your dismissal of my claim in that regard amount to anything more than "you can't have looked at my perspective properly, or you would share my perspective"?

It amounts to nothing of the kind.  I'm offering an alternative explanation for why people do "bad' things.  This explanation can be verified with objective data, it can be witnessed and corroborated or falsified by an educated scientist regardless of his or her religious background.  Don't take my word for it, look into yourself.  Learn about human behavior.  Learn how neurology inspires behavior and personality.

I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.

Being convinced without a doubt and being unable/unwilling to accept an alternative argument means you refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts your current belief.  In other words, evidence has no value for you.  How exactly am I supposed to respect that?  My disdain is not for you - it's for the cultish belief system you're working so hard to maintain.  You deserve better than this. 

Offline albeto

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Re: Authority
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2012, 12:43:21 PM »

Well, psychiatrists all tend to agree that they actually don't have a sense of right and wrong. i can't explain that...but it's hardly something to hang your hat on if you're trying to argue that there's no morall compass at all

Do you have a source for this "fact"? 

In reality psychiatrists and neurologists recognize the neurological make-up of such individuals prevents them from recognizing certain nonverbal body language, like fear and anxiety.  Furthermore, the feed-back of empathy is essentially shut down.  In other words, they don't choose to ignore your moral compass any more than a paraplegic chooses not to dance.

Offline albeto

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Re: Authority
« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2012, 01:00:22 PM »

Totally agree with the first part of your post.

Sorry, but I just don't understand the second part of your post. Would you mind trying to maybe explain differently?

Did Astreja's post help?  Primate behavior is a fascinating study.  You go to the monkey house of your local zoo and you'll see some monkeys are more aggressive than others.  The aggressive ones will fight over any resource, first dibs on food, a particular mate, the best place to sit in the tree.  They'll enforce their dominance at any time, willing to back it up with a fight if someone challenges them.  And there are those who are naturally aggressive who will make the challenge, but this is a small percentage of the population. On the other side of the bell curve of personality are those who are completely subservient and dependent upon others' for virtually everything.  They will not challenge and willingly submit to any demand.  Most are in the middle (thus, the bell curve), with stronger tendencies one way or the other but in minute differences. 

A community that works this way is best suited for survival and passing on its genetic code (further generations with the same intrinsic behaviors).  If too many are aggressive, the fighting within the tribe reduces the numbers to the point where another tribe fighting for resources will have them outnumbered and they'll be forced to flee.  Too many submissive members will keep the fighting down but when other tribes try to take over the local resources, they are incapable of adequate defense and again, will not likely pass on this submissive genetic code.  Tribes with a healthy bell curve of intrinsic behaviors between aggressive and submissive will be far more cohesive and able to withstand outside aggression, have access to the best resources available, and continue the genetic code through generations upon generations.

Humans are primates and the same general idea applies.  We are social creatures. We are internally driven to be only so aggressive and only so submissive and those of us who have access to the best resources will be more likely to preserve that community.  Humans have adapted a complex language to accompany this natural behavior and so we tend to formalize those behaviors that our community has "always done."  In Asian, it should come as no surprise that communities living in a very populated way, learn to be subservient to those who are most aggressive.  Eventually this translates to the Emperor system with millions of loyal subjects.  In Europe, where land was plentiful, the idea of self-sufficiency was far more suitable to the environment.  It should come as no surprise that we descendants of the land of the Norse and Goths value personal liberty over than loyalty to the aggressive members.   It should come as no surprise that the Christian religion took off in Europe.  The resources allowed it to thrive in ways it simply couldn't in Africa or Asia.  It should come as no surprise that it feels only natural and right to you.  You've been conditioned since day one to believe this stuff and you're surrounded by people who also believe it. 

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Authority
« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2012, 01:57:22 PM »
Albeto to MM:
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Well, psychiatrists all tend to agree that they actually don't have a sense of right and wrong. i can't explain that...
Do you have a source for this "fact"?
I think MM is partly correct there.

Antisocial personality disorderWiki is correlated with AmoralityWiki, defined as "an absence of, indifference towards, or disregard for moral beliefs".

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some humans may be considered amoral, including newborn babies or persons with cognitive disorders (perhaps, for example, those diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder).

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Psychopathy was, until 1980, the term used for a personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with strongly amoral conduct but masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal.
Note that 1980 marked the introduction of Antisocial Personality Disorder as a new category, while the term Psychopath became a subset of that.

ICD-10 also references amorality:
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The 1992 manual included dissocial (antisocial) personality disorder, which encompasses amoral, antisocial, asocial, psychopathic, and sociopathic personalities.

(All quotes from wiki articles).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 02:01:05 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Authority
« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2012, 02:18:10 PM »
MM do you follow all laws from authority for fear of punishment......or do you follow some and ignore others? A speed limit is put in place on most roads of the world,because the authorities want to keep you and others safe. Many people ignore these laws and go over the limit.....the penalty is minor,perhaps a small fine,so people take that risk.

 Drunk driving is illeagal,even though the penalty is more severe some still risk it,,then we can move on to other laws like rape and murder. The laws for these crimes is severe,and so is the punishment,but it hardly stops some from the risk of doing it

 The Question is not authority,but wether or not you get caught.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Authority
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2012, 02:39:50 PM »
I cannot accept your arguments about objective morality - I'm convinced beyond any doubt that humans share the same moral compass. I know full well I'm a cruel and selfish person, regardless of my societies constant attempts to tell me otherwise.
What good would a moral compass do if we didn't also have a moral map. And don't claim the bible is one. Your god couldn't even give Moses and his peeps a map to get out of the frickin' desert.

Analogy-wise, you could say societies provide both a moral compass and a map to use it with. It's just that some folks have no sense of direction, so moral compasses are sometimes inadequate. But again, only as an analogy. Don't start thinking it is real.

There are people who know they are doing bad things, and that they might get caught (or imagine that they never will), and they do the bad stuff until the do get caught or they die. There are people who would like to do bad things but don't because they don't want to go to jail. And there are people who simply wouldn't do bad things because the understand the concept of right and wrong and agree with it.

Al Capone and my Grandma Floy did not have the same moral compass. I guarantee it.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Authority
« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2012, 04:56:36 PM »
Note to all - too many responses posted overnight for me to respond to thoughtfully for a while. Depending on my workweek I might be able to respond to some over the next few days.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline albeto

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Re: Authority
« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2012, 05:13:36 PM »
Albeto to MM...

Thanks.  I still maintain this is a hard-wiring issue which only complicates MM's premise.  If God creates people to be incapable of recognizing "right" from "wrong" then what does that mean about his creative and operational skills?