Author Topic: Where do I find them?  (Read 2340 times)

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Offline jetson

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2012, 07:10:42 AM »
magicmiles,

Welcome to the forum.  After reading this thread from the beginning, it is clear that you came in with lots of ignorance about atheism, as well as what atheists think.  It's always fun watching new members come in here with their "questions", and their ignorance about atheism and atheists.

When a stranger opens their door and invites you into their home, how much time do you spend getting to know that person before you pretend to know that person?

And, if you follow Jesus, the magic man who loved everyone, what do you think his impression would be of how you started out in this thread?

I think you could have an interesting time engaging atheists if you truly want to understand them, so let's see if you can move back towards humility a bit more, and show us all what a true Christian should be acting like.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2012, 07:32:08 AM »

Now, my first inclination is to interpret your response as "I feel compelled to strongly promote my belief that there is no absolute source of right and wrong ( the Christian God ) in order that my children don't get the wrong idea about what is right and wrong"

Is that a reasonable summary of what motivates you to promote atheism?
Firstly there is no "compelled to strongly promote" Right and wrong are relative, However we are social animals and there is an innate morality within us, a golden rule "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself" - Confucius 551-479 BC,[1] this is not a belief, this is a produced for survival, which unfortunately humans cross on occasion to their own detriment. 
Secondly there are no absolutes right, wrong or anything.
And thirdly you can't promote atheism, atheism isn't something you are, it is something you're from a theist position, it merely means you lack belief in the claims of god/gods, santa/ tooth  fairy, dragons/elves, etc. It has no other meaning, no dogma, no tenets.
But as an individual, a parent that's a whole different ball game. We must give much more to our children if we wish them to grow up and survive as we would not want our children to cross that line and not survive, would we. Preaching lies isn't a good way to go about that, now is it.
 1.  (Not the arse about face Christian version)

the belief that morality exists within us only to ensure the continuity of the species is flawed. There are countless examples I could give of behaviour which is more or less universally condemmed as being wrong but the practice of which would have no effect on the continuation of the species.
Yes hence why right and wrong are relative. See hickdive excellent post #43.
Quote from: magicmiles
Be honest...when you hear of certain atrocities, your heart cries out at the horror and injustice, not at the breaking of the "golden rule of survival".
Yes agreed because my morals are different to some others you included, Note the bolded in my previous post, we are social animals. But because they are acting badly, shamefully.
Quote from: magicmiles
]there is a source of that outrage, as we are created in the image of God.
No god was created by man for man, to control man, hence why man will act badly, shamefully, he is doing it to gain credence with his imaginary god.  It was Steven Weinberg who said "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "
Quote from: magicmiles
Preaching lies? Come on now...you act as though there was no evidence of, for instance, the resurrection.
Well is there! Feel free to posit some. I'm sure we would all like to see it.
Quote from: magicmiles
You know there is, but it's conidered insufficient ( even though the same evidence, applied to other ancient historical events, is accepted no questions asked )
Are you at all serious! What historical evidence is there for a biblical Jesus.
Insufficient is an understatement, non-existent more like!
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline hickdive

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2012, 08:21:40 AM »
To some extent we're on the same page here. You seem uncomfortable with the fact that a society can dictate right and wrong - believe me, so do I.

Er, no. I'm perfectly comfortable with that fact, kindly refrain from presuming to know how I feel. As a matter of fact this week I'm up for selection to a jury; the legal system although by no means perfect, is a an example of society dictating right and wrong for the greater good. I prefer that to anarchy. It is also an example of how, as morality evolves, society can be changed to accommodate that evolution.

Which is why you are wrong when you assert;

Because if that was the case, you could never argue that something was ever wrong,pprovided the particular behaviour was endorsed by 'society'.

Laws change as a result of arguing that something is wrong.

lets take the example you gave..paedophile marriage. I assume you abhor the notion, but why?

I abhor the notion because my society has evolved to realise that sexual relations with the pre-pubescent are not only sterile but damaging to the victims. Compare that with the society portrayed in the koran, which advocates paedophile marriage or the society portrayed in the bible which advocates that daughters may be given away sexually in order to avoid the greater 'sin' of sodomy. These things were 'right' in their societies but are clearly wrong in our society. If there was a single moral code then what was right then would still be right today. The fact that that isn't the case shows clearly the fallacy of asserting that there is a single, unchanging moral code.



Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline truthfinder

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2012, 08:23:56 AM »
i have a question?

If there is no god,then how evolution started from vacuum (from nothing).

Can vacuum evolved to something else ?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2012, 08:27:11 AM »
i have a question?

If there is no god,then how evolution started from vacuum (from nothing).

Can vacuum evolved to something else ?

This question presupposes that YOUR God did it, when it was clearly MY God that did it.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline hickdive

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2012, 08:33:42 AM »
i have a question?

If there is no god,then how evolution started from vacuum (from nothing).

Can vacuum evolved to something else ?

I think you're confusing the beginnings of the universe, abiogenesis and evolution. They are three distinct fields.

However, to answer your question with another. How do you know that the big bang started from nothing? As far as I can tell no-one seriously suggests it did. Science is working ever closer to the the moment of the the actual creation of the universe but they have no inkling, thus far as to what proceeded it but that doesn't mean there was nothing nor does it mean that, since we don't know, a god must have done it. "Don't know" is not the same as "God".
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2012, 08:37:05 AM »
i have a question?

If there is no god,then how evolution started from vacuum (from nothing).

Can vacuum evolved to something else ?

Evolution didn't start from a vacuum. Look up abiogenesis. or ...Read through the evolution vrs creation threads.

A vacuum is not "nothing."
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2012, 08:38:11 AM »
Truthfinder:
If there is a god,then how everything started from vacuum (from nothing).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 08:39:53 AM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline truthfinder

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2012, 08:45:30 AM »
i have a question?

If there is no god,then how evolution started from vacuum (from nothing).

Can vacuum evolved to something else ?

I think you're confusing the beginnings of the universe, abiogenesis and evolution. They are three distinct fields.

However, to answer your question with another. How do you know that the big bang started from nothing? As far as I can tell no-one seriously suggests it did. Science is working ever closer to the the moment of the the actual creation of the universe but they have no inkling, thus far as to what proceeded it but that doesn't mean there was nothing nor does it mean that, since we don't know, a god must have done it. "Don't know" is not the same as "God".

Logically we should think about vacuum universe (nothing at all) since there is no originator or creator,we should know
first the starter before thinking about the universe and evolution

Offline truthfinder

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2012, 08:48:37 AM »
Truthfinder:
If there is a god,then how everything started from vacuum (from nothing).

because he is the starter,there should be a starting point

Offline One Above All

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2012, 08:49:20 AM »
because he is the starter,there should be a starting point

Then what created your god?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2012, 08:49:52 AM »
Truthfinder:
If there is a god,then how everything started from vacuum (from nothing).

because he is the starter,there should be a starting point
Where/when did he start?
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline truthfinder

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2012, 08:56:29 AM »
Truthfinder:
If there is a god,then how everything started from vacuum (from nothing).

because he is the starter,there should be a starting point
Where/when did he start?

Time and position is made for us,so god should be all the time ,exist all the time and with no limits to his universe

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2012, 08:59:15 AM »
Quote
Time and position is made for us,so god should be all the time ,exist all the time and with no limits to his universe

If god could have always existed, then so could have the universe.
 
ADDED:No need to posit a god.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 09:02:40 AM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2012, 09:05:17 AM »
Time and position is made for us,so god should be all the time ,exist all the time and with no limits to his universe

Special pleading. Plain and simple.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline hickdive

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2012, 09:09:51 AM »
Logically we should think about vacuum universe (nothing at all)

Why is that logical? What evidence do you have for presuming that, prior to our known universe, nothing existed and that our universe came from that nothing?

since there is no originator or creator,we should know
first the starter before thinking about the universe and evolution

I agree, it would be very interesting to know what existed (if anything) prior to our universe but it is you that is assuming that there must have been a god who did exist and further you are suggesting that, whilst the universe required a starter, god itself didn't.

In addition, if we assume that you are correct, that there is a god who has always existed and who created the universe; what evidence do you have that it is your particular version of god that did it and that it intervenes in the affairs of the universe?

Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2012, 09:14:11 AM »
Truthfinder:
To help speed up the process, look up: Abiogenesis, evolution, infinite regress, a-priori, special pleading, and burden of proof. Then put your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la, until the cognitive dissonance subsides.

Then come back and try again.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline truthfinder

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2012, 09:17:48 AM »
Quote
Time and position is made for us,so god should be all the time ,exist all the time and with no limits to his universe

If god could have always existed, then so could have the universe.
 
ADDED:No need to posit a god.

if we assume that the universe was existed all the time,then how evolution will make the creation
in such away which we can see today,evolution for humans to have a mind to think and the ability
to speak,for the bird to fly with wings,evolution make a control for the birth,so male and female
were needed by the evolution calculations,wise coincidences

Offline One Above All

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2012, 09:21:22 AM »
<snip>

1: Stop using paragraphs in the middle of your sentences.
2: Learn proper grammar.
3: Learn about everything you want to discuss.
4: Learn about fallacies.
5: Come back.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2012, 09:22:02 AM »
Truthfinder:
These kinds of questions are for the Evolution Creation section. If you go there and create a new thread, People will be happy to answer your questions.

Also, I see you are from Jordan. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the English language. Please go to the introductions section and tell us about yourself, so we can properly welcome you to the forum.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2012, 09:27:57 AM »
5: Come back.

Then explain why it is that we are talking about abiogenesis and the big bang, without first demonstrating that it was not MY God who did it.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2012, 09:31:21 AM »
Truthfinder"

Also, please go here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,78.0.html
And learn the forum rules. By asking one question after another before resolving the first question may be considered dodging and that is not looked favorably upon.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2012, 09:39:51 AM »
Then explain why it is that we are talking about abiogenesis and the big bang, without first demonstrating that it was not MY God who did it.

Burden of proof.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2012, 09:49:13 AM »
Magicmiles, how are you able to tell that your god is good, as opposed to evil?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2012, 10:04:48 AM »
Sounds to me more that you dislike God rather than don't belive He exists. I get that same impression from many atheists. Are you sure there isn't just a SMIDGE of belief in your mind?

Do you have the faintest clue how much of an arrogant, condescending ass you sound like when you say this?  If not, try turning it around and imagine how you'd feel if an atheist told you that, deep down inside, you knew that Yahweh doesn't exist and you just didn't want to admit it to yourself or anyone else.  Wouldn't you be pretty seriously offended?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2012, 10:06:54 AM »
I thought Atheists are 100% adamant that God DOESN'T exist?

There are atheists who are like that, but they're in the minority.  If my anecdotal experience is any indication, I'd say that such atheists constitute perhaps five percent of all atheists, at most.  Most atheists are merely people who lack belief in a deity, not people who insist that deities do not exist.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2012, 10:08:10 AM »
this is exhausting..i had no idea I'd get this level of discussion as a new member. I can't keep up...time out OK?

You have my sympathies.  I'm familiar with the phenomenon, and it's probably the main reason I don't participate in Christian-majority forums -- I simply can't keep up.

Take your time and return if and when you can.  No one here will think less of you for saying that you're drowning and that you need to catch your breath.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2012, 10:56:10 AM »
Sounds to me more that you dislike God rather than don't belive He exists. I get that same impression from many atheists. Are you sure there isn't just a SMIDGE of belief in your mind?
Nah. I've been doing this atheist thing for a long time. This year marks my fiftieth anniversary as a non-believer, so I'm pretty sure I don't have any doubts. I play around with believers like I did with you, but i don't have any second doubts. Christians have yet to find a way to show me why their little god story is any more credible than the hindu or zoroastrian or jewish or muslim stories are. I know a good myth when I see one. And poor ones too.

However, I often encounter believers who want to put my views in a perspective they can understand. You are not the first christian to suggest I hate their god rather than trust it doesn't exist at all. And you won't be the last. If you are like the others, you are making stuff up so that contrary opinions such as mine will be less threatening. I am not trying to put words in your specific mouth, but I have ended up assuming that those christians who want to think I hate their god do so because they just don't want to think about the whys of atheism. Too threatening. If I truly do not believe in god, what if I am right? Too many christians don't even want to think about it.

I don't know if you are one of those types or not. Yet. If you continue on this theme of assuming hate, you are. If you don't, you aren't. We'll find out.

Edit: spelling
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 11:26:53 AM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Where do I find them?
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2012, 11:06:38 AM »
Logically we should think about vacuum universe (nothing at all) since there is no originator or creator,we should know
first the starter before thinking about the universe and evolution

If I said I didn't like jesus because he liked NASCAR and I don't, would that make any sense? I thought not. I'm making that up. You are making up science.

You are confusing your guesses about what science is saying with what science is actually saying. And you are responding to said guesses rather than actual research and discoveries. This is a common problem here on the site. Christians and other believers who either guess wildly about what we must have found or who memorize three or four common and equally ignorant theist rants on science (you haven't found the missing link so evolution must be false), which are equally wrong but more popular.

If you are unwilling to even read a one page wikipedia article on something before commenting smugly, this will not go well. I would in fact suggest that you limit your comments to stuff on which you have some actual knowledge. Or at least experience. Efforts to use incredibly wrong and wild-assed guesses to shed light on atheistic and scientific ignorance are doomed.

In other words, you'll sound much smarter if you say smart things.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.