Author Topic: A Psalm passage to which I have no response  (Read 2048 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2012, 01:18:39 AM »
Yes, I have real the bible in its entirety. For me, the more I read it the more i am convinced I am reading God's word. It's hard to argue against my own convictions ( and they are MY convictions - despite the fact I was also raised in a Christian environment ).

And the authenticity to me is increased by the differences, not weakened.

The very definition of insanity.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2012, 02:03:34 AM »
Been called worse
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2012, 02:32:39 AM »
Atheists and Jews have long tried to make out that Psalm 22 is not a prophecy based on the fact that the Masoretic text has a typographical error at exactly the wrong point. This has lead to endless speculation about whether it's a yod, or lions or somesuch.

It's then said that Christians did not know about it until it was translated into Latin, so it was a non-doctrinal prophecy.

I don't know how this is supposed to make sense, though:

Quote
The caves at Qumran were unknown at the (theoretical) time of Jesus, so Mark would have not been able to reference this as a basis for his story. Also, the scroll itself dates back to well before Jesus and was not discovered until (I think) 1947. This seems to be a prediction of the crucifiction - how do I explain this?

The Qumran scrolls save a version of Psalms that was in currency at exactly the time of Jesus.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2012, 02:37:06 AM »
Just a general comment on this matter, sort of related: I actually find it more authentic that the gospel accounts have variations in detail and what events are and aren't recorded. If they were all the same it would be much more suspicious as a fraud

>>> If they were all the same it would be much more suspicious as a fraud

How suspcious is it, now?

You should think about the gospel of John, then. The author made pains to stay so far away from synoptic content that it is painfully obvious that he is committing fraud.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2012, 03:34:58 AM »
well obviously it is very suspicious as a fraud to many people - that's all I was acknowledging.

I can't explain the differences and similarities of the gospels. But I also know I wouldn't die for something fraudulent, as Peter did, for instance.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2012, 09:01:22 AM »
Here's one of my favorite stories about Peter (and the other disciples).

Three hundred years before the birth of the Lord christ, there lived a mother who had twelve sons, but was so poor and needy that she no longer knew how she was to keep them alive.  She prayed to God daily that he would grant that all her sons might be on the earth with the redeemer who was promised. 

When her necessity became still greater she sent one of them after the other out into the world to seek their bread.  The eldest was called peter, and he went out and had already walked a long way, a whole day's journey, when he came into a great forest.

He sought for a way out, but could find none, and went farther and farther astray, and at the same time felt such great hunger that he could scarcely stand.  At length he became so weak that he was forced to lie down, and he believed death to be at hand. 

Suddenly there stood beside him a small boy who shone with brightness, and was as beautiful and kind as an angel. The child smote his little hands together, until peter was forced to look up and see him.

Then the child said, why are you sitting there in such trouble.  Alas. Answered peter, I am going about the world seeking bread, that I may yet see the dear savior who is promised, that is my greatest desire.  The
child said, come with me, and your wish shall be fulfilled.

He took poor peter by the hand, and led him between some cliffs to a great cavern.  When they entered it, everything was shining with gold, silver, and crystal, and in the midst of it twelve cradles were standing side by side. 

Then said the little angel, lie down in the first, and sleep a while, I will rock you. Peter did so, and the angel sang to him and rocked him until he was alseep.

And when he was asleep, the second brother came
also, guided thither by his guardian angel, and he was rocked to sleep like the first, and thus came the others, one after the other, until all twelve lay there sleeping in the golden cradles.

They slept, however, three hundred years, until the
night when the savior of the world was born.  Then they awoke, and were with him on earth, and were called the twelve apostles.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/grimmtmp/
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline onesteward

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Darwins +3/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2012, 05:37:37 PM »

You should think about the gospel of John, then. The author made pains to stay so far away from synoptic content that it is painfully obvious that he is committing fraud.

The synoptics report on the Passover Supper and Jesus' Body and Blood and John as well.Chpt 6. Regarding salvation those are two incredibly vital subjects...Where is John's avoidance?I don't see it.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2012, 07:27:50 PM »
Hi Onesteward

I read recently that Spafford wrote the hymm in your signature shortly after losing his family in a boat accident. Amazing faith indeed.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline onesteward

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Darwins +3/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2012, 11:05:16 AM »
Hi Onesteward

I read recently that Spafford wrote the hymm in your signature shortly after losing his family in a boat accident. Amazing faith indeed.

 I've read that he was heading to England aboard an ocean liner when the Captain told him they were crossing the spot that the family was lost.His thoughts at that time were what birthed the hymn.I'm not sure how accurate the story is but he did lose his children in an accident at sea.

The story always reminds me of these Scriptures:

2 Corinthians 1:3-4

3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of sympathy (pity and mercy) and the God [Who is the Source] of every comfort (consolation and encouragement),
4) Who comforts (consoles and encourages) us in every trouble (calamity and affliction), so that we may also be able to comfort (console and encourage) those who are in any kind of trouble or distress, with the comfort (consolation and encouragement) with which we ourselves are comforted (consoled and encouraged) by God.
 
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2012, 11:21:18 AM »
Been called worse

I do not think the point was to call you names.  It was to point out that you are not using your brain very well.



But I also know I wouldn't die for something fraudulent,

Is that supposed to be an argument for authenticity or ignorance? 

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2012, 02:38:35 PM »
Yes, I have real the bible in its entirety. For me, the more I read it the more i am convinced I am reading God's word. It's hard to argue against my own convictions ( and they are MY convictions - despite the fact I was also raised in a Christian environment ).

And the authenticity to me is increased by the differences, not weakened.
And in any other situation, I can guess that you would not find this to be the case at all.   A book on diesel mechanics that got things wrong constantly, why that must mean it's the real true book on diesel mechanics.  &)

You were raised Christian.  You were told Christian thingsn by people you trusted, correct?  You believed them since you trusted them.  However, they and you've looked no futher than those people and the book that they said was completely correct in everything.  You depend on each other for validation. 

It is hard to question your convictions.  I know, I was also a Christian.  But when you do, then you do get your own convictions, not something someone else told you when you were impressionable.  We have a book, teh bible, that was written over a period of hundreds of years and that contradicts itself.  We have various books that were left out of it that were chosen by men, and some sects of the religion still think that they are just as valid as the rest.  We have no indication of anything other than humans creatign myths that have no evidence supporting them, just like the religions of other cultures.  I know you've bound up a lot of your self-worth in this religion.  However, that doesn't make it true in any shape or form. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2012, 02:49:55 PM »
The synoptics report on the Passover Supper and Jesus' Body and Blood and John as well.Chpt 6. Regarding salvation those are two incredibly vital subjects...Where is John's avoidance?I don't see it.

this might help: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_john.htm
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline onesteward

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Darwins +3/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2012, 03:34:54 PM »
The synoptics report on the Passover Supper and Jesus' Body and Blood and John as well.Chpt 6. Regarding salvation those are two incredibly vital subjects...Where is John's avoidance?I don't see it.

this might help: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_john.htm

It didn't. Thank you  though.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2012, 03:52:39 PM »
The synoptics report on the Passover Supper and Jesus' Body and Blood and John as well.Chpt 6. Regarding salvation those are two incredibly vital subjects...Where is John's avoidance?I don't see it.

this might help: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_john.htm

It didn't. Thank you  though.

of course it didn't.  It was a source that disagreed with you and dared to show you how you were wrong.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6615
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2012, 03:56:02 PM »
Quote
"I have been poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away in my breast. My strength is dried up like a potsherd and my tongue melts in my mouth. They have placed me as the dust of death.”
What does any of this mean? How is any of it specific to Christ? 

Tell them to read the rest of Psalms 22 – none of it is even vaguely related to Jesus, except for Psalms:22:1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?  But Jesus never added the next bit, did he? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

Quote
For dogs are all around me; a gang of evildoers encircles me.
Does this sound like the words of Christ who taught that you should love your enemies?
Quote
They have pierced my hands and my feet.
No mention of the spear in the side then?
Quote
I can count all of my bones;
Why would a crucified man be able to count his bones any easier than a living one?
Quote
people stare and gloat over me.
An example self-pity, not to be generalised.
Quote
they divide my garments among themselves, and they cast lots for my clothes."
At the time of Christ, and before, usually the most valuable possessions (and probably the only possessions) that a person had were his clothes. The symbolism here is that the writer’s own death is anticipated. Do your friends really believe that Jesus was the only man in history whose clothes were gambled away?

Then compare the Gospel descriptions of Christ’s crucifixion how many record what Psalms is supposed to say.

Now, realise that the Q docs record what was in the Talmud and imagine how easy it was for the writer of Matthew 27:46 to throw something in.

Talk about an invented coincidence.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2012, 05:39:43 PM »
Been called worse

I do not think the point was to call you names.  It was to point out that you are not using your brain very well.



But I also know I wouldn't die for something fraudulent,

Is that supposed to be an argument for authenticity or ignorance?

authenticity. To me it adds weight to the gospel accounts.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2012, 05:45:54 PM »
Yes, I have real the bible in its entirety. For me, the more I read it the more i am convinced I am reading God's word. It's hard to argue against my own convictions ( and they are MY convictions - despite the fact I was also raised in a Christian environment ).

And the authenticity to me is increased by the differences, not weakened.
And in any other situation, I can guess that you would not find this to be the case at all.   A book on diesel mechanics that got things wrong constantly, why that must mean it's the real true book on diesel mechanics.  &)

You were raised Christian.  You were told Christian thingsn by people you trusted, correct?  You believed them since you trusted them.  However, they and you've looked no futher than those people and the book that they said was completely correct in everything.  You depend on each other for validation. 

It is hard to question your convictions.  I know, I was also a Christian.  But when you do, then you do get your own convictions, not something someone else told you when you were impressionable.  We have a book, teh bible, that was written over a period of hundreds of years and that contradicts itself.  We have various books that were left out of it that were chosen by men, and some sects of the religion still think that they are just as valid as the rest.  We have no indication of anything other than humans creatign myths that have no evidence supporting them, just like the religions of other cultures.  I know you've bound up a lot of your self-worth in this religion.  However, that doesn't make it true in any shape or form.

I find it very easy to question my convictions. I do it regularly. I always end up being re-convicted.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2012, 09:38:20 AM »
authenticity. To me it adds weight to the gospel accounts.

So you are saying that because he died for a belief, the belief must have been true?  Is that accurate?
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Swanny

Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2012, 10:39:38 AM »
Thank you for your help, everyone. So I gather from this that the Psalm, even if it was independent from Jesus, has no way of being correlated logically back to Jesus. On top of that, it likely existed as at least an oral tradition anyway at the time of the gospel writers. Combined with the fact that the gospels are designed for Jesus to fit as many prophecies as possible, the passage is irrelevant.

I took the class because I wanted to increase my understanding of Biblical origins for arguing against Christianity. Also, it is pretty awesome being the only atheist in a class of Protestants. :D
The most basic fact of life is that there has to be a creator and to deny this no matter how many phd's u have mean you are still at the most elementary stage of true knowledge.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2012, 12:03:50 PM »
I find it very easy to question my convictions. I do it regularly. I always end up being re-convicted.

I'm sure that's easy when you refuse to acknowledge anything else but your convictions.  You've run away from so many threads as soon as the qeustions got too hard.  Now, if you hadn't done that repeatedly, I might have reason to trust your claims that you have questioned them, but as always actions speak louder than words.

and Swanny, I think it would be great fun to be in your class. 

EDIT:  MM, I'm wondering if you'd address my point, that assuming that errors make something more true doesn't work with reality, aka a book about diesel mechanics that was wrong would not not be considered "true".  You seem to use every excuse in the book to cling to your religion. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 01:18:54 PM by velkyn »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2012, 12:54:52 PM »
Just a general comment on this matter, sort of related: I actually find it more authentic that the gospel accounts have variations in detail and what events are and aren't recorded. If they were all the same it would be much more suspicious as a fraud

Errors are an indication of accuracy?????????Try that on a jury.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline onesteward

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Darwins +3/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2012, 01:49:51 PM »



Just a general comment on this matter, sort of related: I actually find it more authentic that the gospel accounts have variations in detail and what events are and aren't recorded. If they were all the same it would be much more suspicious as a fraud

Errors are an indication of accuracy?????????Try that on a jury.

It's like this...Variations in detail and different writers recording different things( from different perspectives)about the same event isn't admitting to error .You take it that way from your perspective.I don't think the statement means anywhere near what you tried to make it say.I don't believe a jury would either.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 01:59:24 PM by onesteward »
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2012, 02:09:03 PM »
It's like this...Variations in detail and different writers recording different things( from different perspectives)about the same event isn't admitting to error .You take it that way from your perspective.I don't think the statement means anywhere near what you tried to make it say.I don't believe a jury would either.
That might work if your book wasn’t claimed to be from some magical source.  We have direct contradiction of what happened in the gospels.  If one thing happened, like say what was said at the end, another thing could not have been said.  There is only one “last” statement possible.  Someone has made an error.  Therefore, your supposedly magically derived book is *wrong* and there is little reason to suppose any of it is right.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline onesteward

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Darwins +3/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2012, 02:12:39 PM »
That might work if your book wasn’t claimed to be from some magical source.  We have direct contradiction of what happened in the gospels.  If one thing happened, like say what was said at the end, another thing could not have been said.  There is only one “last” statement possible.  Someone has made an error.  Therefore, your supposedly magically derived book is *wrong* and there is little reason to suppose any of it is right.   

That is a bit vague.Could you tell us where so it can be checked?Thanks.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2012, 02:32:10 PM »
That might work if your book wasn’t claimed to be from some magical source.  We have direct contradiction of what happened in the gospels.  If one thing happened, like say what was said at the end, another thing could not have been said.  There is only one “last” statement possible.  Someone has made an error.  Therefore, your supposedly magically derived book is *wrong* and there is little reason to suppose any of it is right.   

That is a bit vague.Could you tell us where so it can be checked?Thanks.

I love it, OS. As always the delaying tactics that always fail and show you to evidently be thinking that we're not very intelligent to be duped by such transparent tactics.  You are always wrong in that.   

You've been shown the evidence repeatedly and it seems every time you can't find your own bible to look in.   Let me remind you, OS, your gospels have different thing that your supposed messiah said as his last words.  Now, which one of them do you think is the "real" last words?  Here's a link to a bunch of bibles you can read right now: http://www.biblegateway.com/    Do you even need the chapters of the gospel books?  John 19, Luke 23, Mark 15, and  Matthew 27  I do hope you can figure out the verses yourself.  A hint, Matt and Mark are very similar, so you only have to reconcile three differing claims.  I know I'll get the usual excuses. 

You've provided me with some great evidence that you didn't even look at my link about the gospel of john over on religoustolerance.org.  If you had, you'd know where at least some of these contradictions are. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2012, 02:46:01 PM »
That might work if your book wasn’t claimed to be from some magical source.  We have direct contradiction of what happened in the gospels.  If one thing happened, like say what was said at the end, another thing could not have been said.  There is only one “last” statement possible.  Someone has made an error.  Therefore, your supposedly magically derived book is *wrong* and there is little reason to suppose any of it is right.   

That is a bit vague.Could you tell us where so it can be checked?Thanks.

Right at the concept the it contains extraordinary claims. Claims that do not match with logic, archeology, history, itself, the geologic record, or math: so it appeals to be nothing more than the collection of mythology. There is little reason to suppose any book with similar claims being right...say the Illiad, and this "bible" is no different.

 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2012, 02:47:57 PM »



Just a general comment on this matter, sort of related: I actually find it more authentic that the gospel accounts have variations in detail and what events are and aren't recorded. If they were all the same it would be much more suspicious as a fraud

Errors are an indication of accuracy?????????Try that on a jury.

It's like this...Variations in detail and different writers recording different things( from different perspectives)about the same event isn't admitting to error .You take it that way from your perspective.I don't think the statement means anywhere near what you tried to make it say.I don't believe a jury would either.




If errors are an indication of accuracy...then the more error prone something is, the more accurate it must be. There are more than variations of detail...there are definitive contradictions.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6615
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2012, 08:25:00 PM »
The whole of the Psalm should be seen as a complete message

Quote
Psalms:22:1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?  why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
You will note that the same words appear as Christ dies on the Cross. The obvious thing here is that M'r:15:34: And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? However, in other Gospels he says something else, or nothing at all. M'r:15:34 is clearly words put into the mouth to link with this Psalm and for that reason only - it is a forgery.
Quote
Psalms:22:2: O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psalms:22:3: But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
As far as the NT goes, there is not much crying done by Jesus and what is "in the night season"?
Quote
...Psalms:22:7: All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
Psalms:22:8: He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
There is no point at which Jesus says God will save him from the cross.
Quote
Psalms:22:9: But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psalms:22:10: I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
This does not coincide with the miraculous conception.
Quote
Psalms:22:11: Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psalms:22:12: Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Bashan appears to have been a defeated nation since Deuteronomy and those besetting Christ show no signs of coming from that country.
[There follows a general description of discomfort that could apply to anyone.]
Quote
Psalms:22:18: They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
This was not an uncommon practise: IIRC, it continued in England at public hangings - the thief's possessions were sold or shared amongst the officials. The same story is repeated in the NT - again it was mentioned in the NT to link with this passage - not because it happened.
Quote
Psalms:22:20: Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Who is "my darling"? The speaker's wife? His son?
Quote
Psalms:22:22: I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
The person obviously thinks that he will be talking with his friends later - This then cannot be Jesus.
[...]
Quote
Psalms:22:27: All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Well, that never happened did it?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline freakygin

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Darwins +8/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Psalm passage to which I have no response
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2012, 11:13:00 PM »
It's like this...Variations in detail and different writers recording different things( from different perspectives)about the same event isn't admitting to error .You take it that way from your perspective.I don't think the statement means anywhere near what you tried to make it say.I don't believe a jury would either.

How about Jesus trial?

(Matt 27:12)
Jesus gave no answer, no reply whatsoever

(John 18:33 - 37)
Jesus asnwered charges, answered questions, spoke much

Now now, which one is true? Their perspective is sooo different  &)
Either one of them is lying, or maybe they just so high, maybe they smoke weed on jesus trial.  :laugh:

Think simply.
IF the closest person to Jesus can't even describe such simple event with acuracy.
Then how about the all the things Jesus ever said?  &)
If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..