Speaking in GoDs Language

[screwtape]

Omen,

Very good points.  Next time though, could you please condense that into one or two posts, possbily using a {hr} line break to separate the different replies?  Thanks.

[OnlyClarity]

Look OnlyClarity, I don't know you. I don't know who you are or nothing about you except your attitude here. You've said you've grown up in a Christian family and have been a Christian your entire life until just recently. Now you have given up your belief for reasons IDK.

Bold Mine:
Well ILY, the reason is simple:  the evidence for a God is non-existent - especially a God like the one described in the Bible.
In fact, I would venture to say that my reasons for disbelief are probably better than yours are for believing in something that is unverified and ridiculous.  I can't fathom why you desire to worship an entity that you claim is so capable, yet allows for all the atrocities and sufferings of humanity - and for no good reason.  Why the hell would something as powerful as a god need puny little humans to worship it?  The need for such praise and recognition is a human emotional construct.  A god that is all powerful has no use for this stupid game.  There was never any need for anything to be created in order to worship God, because he simply does not exist.  The very notion is silly and if you really think about what I just said, I hope you realize how foolish the entire scenario really is.  Why worship something so stubborn and cruel as the god of the Bible?  Why believe in anything that has such a lack of proof?  Why do you insist on holding onto a belief that benefits nobody? If you claim it helps yourself, then you are selfish - just like your God is selfish if he allows the rape, oppression, murder, and hatred to reign on this Earth solely for the fact that he might gain a little praise for it.  Disgusting.

You haven't gotten the results that you expected, so "obviously", everyone else must be wrong and delusional. Or even gullible.

Look ILY, I have given consideration to every piece of the puzzle that has been presented to me in my life.  It is not that I did not get the results I expected - it is that I decided to hold the same standards of reason and logic to Christianity that I hold to other areas in life, and you would be wise to do the same.  Why do you get in your car when it could just blow up?  Because the evidence shows us that cars rarely do this.  Why do you go to the hospital or seek medication when you are ill?  Because scientific research and the evidence that it is based on has shown the positive effects of certain medications and medical treatments.  Why do you believe in God?  Because a book and some people that read the book told you to believe it.  Do you see how evidence is used in every other area of your life, but when it comes to the single greatest motivator of your life, you drop the logic like it is worthless?  Do yourself a favor:  give every worldview the same consideration that you have given Christianity.  If you analyze every single worldview through the same lens of evidence, you will realize that many of the other faiths are no different than yours.  They make special claims that have no real and concrete evidence to support those claims.  Why don't you believe the other guy's fairy tales?  Why are they wrong?  How would you go about proving them wrong?  Would you look at the evidence provided, or would you rather just blindly accept it as truth, and then try justify that truth in the face of contradictory evidence?  Trust me ILY, if you just had faith, you could believe in ANY of the world's major belief systems.  They all use the same basic tactic that was used to get you believe in Christianity: believe first, ask questions later (or just believe and screw asking questions altogether).  It simply does not make any sense.

You seem to think that I have been "churched". Brought up in Sunday school, the whole bit....?

Like I have been brainwashed to believe, eh...? Or that I am to stupid to recognize the difference between fact and fiction, eh..?

Between fairy-tales and reality...?

I get it..... I am just a stupid idiot......

ILY, you are not an idiot, you are simply mis-lead.  I never called you an idiot.  What many of us are asking of you is quite simple:  Put aside your presumptions and actually look at how riddled with holes your beliefs are.  If you want to truly see how ill-constructed your logic is, simply go try to believe in Islam.  They will tell you that the Koran is an inspired book and holds the key to your salvation.  They will tell you that Mohammed flew up into heaven on a winged horse.  They will tell you that if you just have enough faith, you will be able to see how true their religion is.  See it yet?  Faith: it works every time for every radical claim.  All of a sudden you will begin to spout out what your logic and reason are saying: Why should I believe this?  Why is this book special and why should I trust it as evidence enough for me to believe in this?  How likely is it that a man could fly anywhere on a horse?  It's not, and those are the same kind of questions that you should ask of Christianity: Is the book true because the book says so?  Why should I believe this?  Is it likely that a man turned a loaf and a fish into a thousand or more?  No, it is not likely.  So why not just believe in all fairy tales?  They all employ the same illogical claims to induce a mystical feeling and make for an interesting story - nothing more.

I hope you find what it is you are looking for. Even if it was said that I was delusional, I would rather keep my faith in Jesus Christ, than go a day without it. He is my best friend and more. And even though I cannot see Him physically, I try and see Him by faith.

I hope you have a wonderful life.

Regards,
ILOVEYOU

Said the Muslim, said the Hindu, said the drug addict, said the alcoholic.  Replace "Jesus Christ" with any crutch that human beings have found to escape their fear and pain.  Guess what, I'd rather go on believing in Santa Clause because if he doesn't exist, that means my parents have been spending tons of money in a rough economy on me instead of some big fat guy in a red suit with magical elves to do all the labor.  Reality hurts sometimes, but at least it's real, true and evidence-based.

I understand it may be hard to face reality once you drop the superstition - many of us have done this same thing.  If you really think about it though, there is nothing to fear.  You can go on lying to yourself to make yourself feel more comfortable, or you can take the reigns in life and do something great for yourself and for others. 

On a side note, think about morality: 
Won't it feel great to do the right thing because you want to help mankind and not because you think a scary sky man will punish you if you don't do it?  Trust me, morality is actually more commendable without a God - because if you have to strike fear into someone before they do the right thing, it is hardly an act worth praising when they have been coerced into doing it.

I hope you can seek truth in your life ILY, because when you really desire the truth and let the evidence lead you to that truth, you are back in reality.  No more are you a slave to the oppressive ideas of bronze age men, bound in a book and sold to you for the price of salvation.  You wouldn't live any other part of your life without evidence, so why let the main part of your worldview be spoiled by something that is as likely as the Flying Spaghetti Monster when compared to the evidence?

I leave the choice to you, but obviously nobody can force you to be honest with yourself - only you can do this.  I hope you have a wonderful life too and I wish you the best of luck in your pursuit for reality.  Please don't let this be the end of the discussion, I merely wanted to respond to the wishes that you gave to me.

Sincerely,
Clarity

[ILOVEYOU]

I can't fathom why you desire to worship an entity that you claim is so capable, yet allows for all the atrocities and sufferings of humanity - and for no good reason?

 

This is a good question. I wouldn't say for no good reason. Yes, I do believe GOD is capable but allows these things to happen for our own good but does intercede more than people give Him credit for or more than the person may actually realize. Seeming to go unnoticed.

Why worship something so stubborn and cruel as the god of the Bible?

I don't believe GOD needs anything from us nor has He, nor will He. I think this all depends on what your definition of worship is. Forced worship isn't true worship at all. Is worship actually a specific description of unconditional love...?

What do you think is meant by worship...?

Why believe in anything that has such a lack of proof?

Because I desire the same thing GOD desires. The same thing even as a child. I can see the corruption of the world. I can see where it is eventually headed if things continue to persist at an increased rate.

Why do you insist on holding onto a belief that benefits nobody? If you claim it helps yourself, then you are selfish - just like your God is selfish if he allows the rape, oppression, murder, and hatred to reign on this Earth solely for the fact that he might gain a little praise for it.  Disgusting.

I think you may have a flawed understand of the situation. Man is in a fallen state. Has been for a long time. The downward spiral started a long time ago. Thousands of years on this planet together and we still can't learn to live at peace and in Brotherly love towards one another...? The actual current rule is an evil rule. Has been for a long time. GOD intervenes on His peoples behalf or on those who call out to Him. Some things are going to happen. We were warned that these things were going to happen. We knew these things were going to happen. Yes, even the innocent suffer at the hands of evil men/ women. GOD does not enjoy this and will deal with this swiftly at the right time.

It is not that I did not get the results I expected - it is that I decided to hold the same standards of reason and logic to Christianity that I hold to other areas in life, and you would be wise to do the same.

My wife had a fling with a friend of mine before we were married. I found out about this after we were married. Hadn't spoken to him or really seen him in several years. Went into a fit of rage and hurt. Verbally abused her for it. Tried to kill myself over it because I was tired of hurting and I wanted to make her hurt. I was wrong. I begged GOD for help. It seemed as if my words faded into thin air. I had such a hard time forgiving her and him.

Overdosed on sleeping pills.

My Dad found me, called the paramedics. It was the friend who was the first responder on scene that aided in saving my life. I had no idea what he did.

I think it is pretty safe to say that if GOD did in fact exist, he would want me to forgive him. Perhaps... He helped me out with this un-forgiveness problem I was having. Actually, He helped more than I even realized and taught me a pretty good lesson. Several things actually. One of them life examples I was talking about earlier in the other thread.

Sure you can call this an emotional experience. You can say whatever you want. I lived it.

Since your response was a pretty long post, I'm going to have to cease as it is late.

Good night.

[velkyn]

This is a good question. I wouldn't say for no good reason. Yes, I do believe GOD is capable but allows these things to happen for our own good but does intercede more than people give Him credit for or more than the person may actually realize. Seeming to go unnoticed.

  Yet more baseless excuses.  It’s sad that you think your god has to allow atrocities for a reason.  This would indicate that your god depends on evil and indeed isn’t omniscient, omnipotent or omnibenevolent at all.  All I see here is the same Christian excuse that they are such special snowflakes, that their god makes people suffer so they can benefit in some mysterious way. 

I don't believe GOD needs anything from us nor has He, nor will He. I think this all depends on what your definition of worship is. Forced worship isn't true worship at all. Is worship actually a specific description of unconditional love...?

  Your god has all kinds of conditions on receiving its “love”, ILY.  One has to believe in it or be damned.  That’s a pretty big condition.  And what does worship mean?  any dictionary will tell you that: to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power (Merriam-webster.com) 

Because I desire the same thing GOD desires. The same thing even as a child. I can see the corruption of the world. I can see where it is eventually headed if things continue to persist at an increased rate.

You claim to know what this god desires.  Funny how all Christians think they know that and they all have different claims about it.  Please do show us how you know this.  You think your god agrees with you, hates the same things you do and likes the same things you do.  Your claims of corruption in the world are just personal opinions; you don’t like something suddenly it becomes “sinful”. 

I think you may have a flawed understand of the situation. Man is in a fallen state. Has been for a long time. The downward spiral started a long time ago. Thousands of years on this planet together and we still can't learn to live at peace and in Brotherly love towards one another...? The actual current rule is an evil rule. Has been for a long time. GOD intervenes on His peoples behalf or on those who call out to Him. Some things are going to happen. We were warned that these things were going to happen. We knew these things were going to happen. Yes, even the innocent suffer at the hands of evil men/ women. GOD does not enjoy this and will deal with this swiftly at the right time.

baseless claims depending on myths.  Nothing shows that man is in any kind of “fallen state”.  Your god does nothing.  No intervention for those who call out to him.  If there was, where is the food for the starving or the succor for those about to be murdered?  Gee, there is none.  I’m guessing your excuse will be that they didn’t call out in the “right” way, the usual Christian excuse. You calim that this god will respond but then have to also excuse why this god allows horrible things to happen.  Either the evil in the world is all god’s will  or it isn’t.  Take your choice, ILY.   And oooh, you claim that this god will actually do something at the “right time”.  So, we have yet more excuses.  That god allows horrible things intentionally, but god intervenes sometimes right away but also waits to intervene at the “right” time.  Ah, the conflicting excuses are piling up. 
When is the “right time”, ILY?   

My wife had a fling with a friend of mine before we were married. I found out about this after we were married. Hadn't spoken to him or really seen him in several years. Went into a fit of rage and hurt. Verbally abused her for it. Tried to kill myself over it because I was tired of hurting and I wanted to make her hurt. I was wrong. I begged GOD for help. It seemed as if my words faded into thin air. I had such a hard time forgiving her and him.

  Gee, from your claims, your god wanted that to happen.  Or not.  Depends on what excuse you want to use.  Does god use sin to make things happen, to drive you to him  

[screwtape]

This is a good question. I wouldn't say for no good reason. Yes, I do believe GOD is capable but allows these things to happen for our own good...

You may not realize it, ILY, but this is a monumentally stupid idea.  yhwh allows all manner of horror and tragedy to take place, for our own good.  Think about that for a minute.  Apply that approach to parenting, since xians just love to use the god-as-father-figure analogy.  You would allow your kids to get into any dangerous situation, do any kind of harm to themselves or each other, for their own good.  Sounds pretty backward to me.

So, just how is it for anyone's "own good" to allow shit like droughts, famine, earthquakes around nuclear facilities, tsunamis, etc, to happen?

Open your eyes.

... but does intercede more than people give Him credit for or more than the person may actually realize. Seeming to go unnoticed.

Oh really?  How do you know?  I ask because it seems to me the exact opposite.  People give god all sorts of credit where it is due to actual existant people, simple coincidence, or where there is no credit to be had at all[1].

Is worship actually a specific description of unconditional love...?

Absolutely not.

What do you think is meant by worship...?

Extortion and quid pro quo. 

A good explanation of extortion: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,7016.msg159058.html#msg159058

Quid pro quo.  yhwh was always all about The Deal.  With abraham, it was "worship me, give me a hunk of your penis, and I will reward you." That is what a covenant is.  A contract.  And by the way, yhwh renegged.  See, the book of Job for details.  All this bullshit about "unconditional love" is hippy nonsense.  With jesus H[2] it was still a deal through extortion.  "Believe in me and live forever in happy land.  Or don't believe in me and be tortured infinitely." 

Man is in a fallen state. Has been for a long time. The downward spiral started a long time ago.

bollocks.  A fallen state implies a time where people were something better than they are now.  There was no such time. We are morally superior to our ancient ancestors.  They owned people.  We don't.  Every other human flaw is more reasonably explained by the fact that we are animals with big brains.  This idea that there is a "downward spiral" is common to every generation.  Read the commentary of any era and they all thought the world was going to hell in an handbasket.  People don't like change.

Thousands of years on this planet together and we still can't learn to live at peace and in Brotherly love towards one another...?

why is that surprising?  Keeping in mind that we are animals, and that all animals compete with other species and within their species for food, mates and resources, then of COURSE we don't live in perfect brotherly love.  Our brains are not sufficiently evolved and probably never will be.  Are you familiar with monkeyspheres?   

The actual current rule is an evil rule.

this is idiotic.

Has been for a long time. GOD intervenes on His peoples behalf or on those who call out to Him.

must not have called out to god then?

Yes, even the innocent suffer at the hands of evil men/ women.

but don't worry, it's for our own good.

GOD does not enjoy this and will deal with this swiftly at the right time.

So much stupid packed into one sentence. 

If an omnipotent being does not enjoy it, why does it exist?  You are saying, god's will is not being done.  Not possible when you are talking about omnipotence.

It isn't dealt with swiftly if we have to wait for "the right time". You understand that, right? If your kid is drowning, dealing with it swiftly is right fucking now.  The right time is this instant.  Not tomorrow.  Not next week.  Not 2000 years later.  Not after the kid is dead.

Get your head out of your ass.

My wife had a fling with a friend of mine before we were married.

That slut.

Tried to kill myself over it because I was tired of hurting and I wanted to make her hurt.

Man, what a vindicitive asshole...

I think it is pretty safe to say that if GOD did in fact exist, he would want me to forgive him.

Or, he would want you to pork his wife - eye for an eye.
Or, he would have wanted him to pay your father in law 20 sheckles and marry your wife. 
Your whole "forgiveness" shtick is your own hippy SPAG. Don't get me wrong.  It is an improvement over the OT.  But really, any of those conclusions are equally justified.

Perhaps... He helped me out with this un-forgiveness problem I was having.

Or, you figured it out yourself.

1.	like when one person out of 200 survives some accident.
2.	or, rather, with Paul

[ParkingPlaces]

My wife had a fling with a friend of mine before we were married. I found out about this after we were married. Hadn't spoken to him or really seen him in several years. Went into a fit of rage and hurt. Verbally abused her for it. Tried to kill myself over it because I was tired of hurting and I wanted to make her hurt. I was wrong. I begged GOD for help. It seemed as if my words faded into thin air. I had such a hard time forgiving her and him.

Overdosed on sleeping pills.

My Dad found me, called the paramedics. It was the friend who was the first responder on scene that aided in saving my life. I had no idea what he did.

I think it is pretty safe to say that if GOD did in fact exist, he would want me to forgive him. Perhaps... He helped me out with this un-forgiveness problem I was having. Actually, He helped more than I even realized and taught me a pretty good lesson. Several things actually. One of them life examples I was talking about earlier in the other thread.

Sure you can call this an emotional experience. You can say whatever you want. I lived it.

I've had bad days. Got over them. Without imagining a god was involved.

When god isn't in the equation, when one isn't begging forgiveness from him or asking for help, then a person can get practical and search for real-world answers. There is enough real guilt in the world. Adding fake guilt by thinking god is pissed adds nothing to the equation. To add complexity to an emergency by hoping god will help as you seek a quick solution is time you can't afford to waste. Real world sadness and real world pain can only be deal with using real world resources. You are wasting time if you insist on praying or begging your lord when what you need to do is get up on your feet and do something yourself.

Everyone asks "Why?" at times, whether there is a why or not. Everyone gets hurt by betrayal and misunderstandings and dishonesty. Everyone gets hurt by tragedy. But when people insist on adding an extra layer of complexity, i.e. a non-existent god, then all problems get worse. Time and emotion spent on thinking or hoping a deity will step in and fix everything is time not spent on resolving the actual issue. To use your already limited skill set of social and personal skills (that applies to all humans, me included. Not just you) to plead with a deity is a total waste of everything.

The worse part. You find a successful solution to any given personal problem. You find forgiveness or peace or you reconnect with someone important or you come to grips with a tragedy. Then you turn around and give all the credit to your "maker" when YOU did it. Then you start singing "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me." to yourself and are happy you believe. Take some credit, dude.

It is all artificial. Every thought about god is a human construct. And as long as you think those thoughts legitimate, you will taking away from your own life. It's like becoming an adult and watching "School House Rock" sixty hours a week. There is no good reason.  And you are making things harder for others. Again, for no good reason. All you actually do when you let this god idea fabricate your happiness is make your pituitary gland pump out more endorphins. Otherwise, nothing is happening. Literally nothing.

Edit: Fixed what little I could. In case my English teacher is checking punctuation and stuff.

[ILOVEYOU]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.

Take care.
ILOVEYOU

[screwtape]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.

Take care.
ILOVEYOU

You're not going to go kill yourself are you?

[monkeymind]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.

Take care.
ILOVEYOU

Well, don't read anything into it. Stay here as long as you want. You are welcome. Just expect to be held accountable for what you say. Also, expect that it will not always be accepted and responses will not always be pleasant or nice.

[Omen]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.

Take care.
ILOVEYOU

The problem is solved quite easily, stop being dishonest and be responsible for your own claims.

[velkyn]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.

Take care.
ILOVEYOU

ILY, you make claims, you are expected to support them.  Has anyone told you that you are not wanted here?  I don't think so, so please stop with the attempts at depicting yourself as a wannabee martyr.  You've made your own problem with your thoughtless remarks, now you need to either support your nonsense or admit that you are wrong.  Running away won't make us any less right.

[atheola]

At least stay for the entertainment value.. It's your Christian duty! 

[OnlyClarity]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.

Take care.
ILOVEYOU

ILOVEYOU, you are certainly welcome here - but your dismissal of valid points of evidence is not welcome here.  I think this is where you make a false judgement on us.  You seem to be interpreting our genuine desire for truth as some kind of attack on yourself.  This is not at all the case, and I hope you don't think that we don't welcome opinions here.  We want to discuss the topics at hand and the only way to distinguish reality from fairy-tales is to have each member back up their assertions or opinions with some logical reason or evidence on why they believe so.  You have failed to do this, and that is why it is so frustrating.  It seems like you pick and choose what you want to read and respond to when many of us spend hours on this thread writing these posts and trying to show you why your logic is flawed. 

Sometimes, I feel like you are spitting in our faces with your roundabout responses and non-answers.  It is very hard to show you respect when we feel that you have not given us the basic respect to back up your claims with reasonable proof or logic.  If you want to continue to post here, you are expected to provide us with evidence, otherwise you are just "sharing your faith."  How eager would you to hear my good news about the Flying Spaghetti Monster on a Christian forum if you were a member?  I doubt you would be eager at all, and you would probably expect me to give you some good reason that you should listen, otherwise you'd get pretty frustrated hearing the same crap over and over.  Think about it, and please consider sticking around.  You really have nothing to lose.  Maybe you will start to see things in a different light and find answers to our questions.  You can only really become stronger as a person if you constantly put your beliefs on the chopping block and let the evidence hack away the parts that weren't useful anyways.

[atheola]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury you do realize you're trying to reason with someone who seems to scoff at reason...do you not? 

[monkeymind]

We're a kinder, gentler group of atheists...

[ParkingPlaces]

Can I be the bad cop? Huh? Huh?

[atheola]

Can I be the bad cop? Huh? Huh?

----> hands Bob the rubber hose of reason..

[Samothec]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.
ILOVEYOU

You misunderstand. You are very wanted. Consider for a moment that almost all of the recent posts (since you rejoined the discussion) were directed at you or about you. If you were not wanted, you would be ignored either figuratively or via the Ignore function. And would get almost no responses. So please don't complain that you aren't wanted when people actually respond to your posts in such abundance. If you want the type of responses to change then change your posts.

[ILOVEYOU]

I'm not sure I will be posting anymore at this point. It's understood that I am not wanted here.
ILOVEYOU

You misunderstand. You are very wanted. Consider for a moment that almost all of the recent posts (since you rejoined the discussion) were directed at you or about you. If you were not wanted, you would be ignored either figuratively or via the Ignore function. And would get almost no responses. So please don't complain that you aren't wanted when people actually respond to your posts in such abundance. If you want the type of responses to change then change your posts.

It wasn't that. I think someone knows but I'm going to drop it now.

[velkyn]

It wasn't that. I think someone knows but I'm going to drop it now.

more baseless claims, and more wannabee martyr.