Speaking in GoDs Language

[GodlessHeathen]

@ Schizoid & GodlessHeathen

In that case, the only reasonable choice here would be to acknowledge "God the Father" and not Jesus or "The Holy Ghost" since GtF would be the original while the other two just emanations of GtF... It seems the belief system is backwards.

It is problematic. And what of when Oneness Pentecostals worship Jesus? Since God the Father and Jesus are supposed to be only one, indivisible person, are they not worshipping man? Where does that leave "Thou shalt worship the
Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"?

I too was baptized in tha name of yada yada yada (a moment I wish I could have back). I wonder if I can do a reverse baptism. I'll ask my mom to talk to the pastor and see if he'll do the ceremony.

Hmmmm..... maybe reciting "in the name of Jesus" backwards? Actually, since baptism accomplishes nothing but to get someone wet from head to toe, I would say there's nothing to reverse. 

[nogodsforme]

@ Schizoid & GodlessHeathen

In that case, the only reasonable choice here would be to acknowledge "God the Father" and not Jesus or "The Holy Ghost" since GtF would be the original while the other two just emanations of GtF... It seems the belief system is backwards.

I too was baptized in tha name of yada yada yada (a moment I wish I could have back). I wonder if I can do a reverse baptism. I'll ask my mom to talk to the pastor and see if he'll do the ceremony.

Get in a sauna and sing "Wango Tango" by Ted Nugent. Guaranteed to take that baptism right off ya. 

[orpat]

History of ancient India: earliest times to 1000 A.D. By Radhey Shyam Chaurasia

History of India, v 1: From the earliest times to the 6th c BC {Romesch Chunder Dutt)
http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofindia01jackuoft#page/n7/mode/2up

Wikipedia, Google and any search engines plus an assortment of text books and publications I have access to locally.

These being said, I believe we are digressing from the topic of this thread and it is better that we stop. If you wish, we can start a new thread. I am always game.

Well, okay then.

[jss]

Plus, someone pointed out (maybe in the Mythbusters episode but maybe it is from elsewhere) that would you really want all of your brain active at the same time? All your senses going full tilt while you are remembering everything in your life while you are consciously controlling every bodily function. No thank you.

So true.  If you're using 90% of your brain you're having a seizure.

[jss]

I believe we have no idea of what the human brain is capable of doing.  We see this manifested many times by people doing things that cannot be explained (although lack of explanation should not be that god by default gets the credit or that it is a miracle).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this (specifically unexplained phenomena).  The human mind is indeed quite flexible, but I'm not sure that equates to its capabilities being mistakingly assumed to be too limited.  What do you mean by "people doing things that cannot be explained"?

They say we only use 10% of our brain power.  Do we really know how savants can instantly play even complex music pieces they have just heard, or how people can do complex math problems in their heads?  In the city where I live we have one of those rare individuals who can remember every day of his life and what happened.  Because these people can do what few can do and nobody knows how does not mean their abilities can be attributed as a gift from god just because they cannot be explained.

Okay, I see now.  I thought you were talking about something metaphysical.  Someone already pointed out that the 10% thing is an urban legend, but yes, we are not consciously aware of everything happening in our minds by a long shot.  I have dabbled in hypnotism (entertainment, not therapy) so I have experimented and witnessed enhanced recall a number of times.  I suppose my confusion is that I don't see these phenomena as unexplained; I see it as our minds normally being very self-limited.

The same goes for medical miracles.  Just because something cannot be explained by default the credit should not be attributed to god.

I would go one further than that: Just because something cannot be explained does not mean that there are paranormal forces at work.

[Babdah]

I would go one further than that: Just because something cannot be explained does not mean that there are paranormal forces at work.

So, where are these "paranormal forces" at when one needs them? or is it just a magical hopefulness that you in the right place at the right time kinda thing?

[jss]

I would go one further than that: Just because something cannot be explained does not mean that there are paranormal forces at work.

So, where are these "paranormal forces" at when one needs them? or is it just a magical hopefulness that you in the right place at the right time kinda thing?

The 'paranormal forces' don't exist!  There are phenomena poorly understood by science (like ball lightening) and there are a great deal of fundamentals in the universe that science doesn't have nailed down but none of that is paranormal (I hate the 'anything is possible in an infinite universe' fallacy).

When people insist on experiencing events in a paranormal context I believe it's just wish fulfillment, consciously or otherwise.

[Samothec]

... I wonder if I can do a reverse baptism. ...

Hmmmm..... maybe reciting "in the name of Jesus" backwards? Actually, since baptism accomplishes nothing but to get someone wet from head to toe, I would say there's nothing to reverse. 

Repeat after me: "Susej[1] fo eman eht ni"
We shall do many things the opposite like using reason and being kind to people but one thing we will do the same is use the last word of the incantation for an identifier. Afterwards we shall be known by the word "ni" - thus, the Knights of Ni. And we shall have people bring us shrubberies to not burn.     

1.	ignore the fact that "susej" sounds like the word sausage - this is not supposed to be a sausage fest

[OnlyClarity]

Hello all, I'm new here at the WWGHA forums!  I will make a point to head over to the introduction section sometime soon and post more about myself, but just for a prelude:  I am an agnostic athiest (raised in a Christian family, and generally unsure about the whole thing for most of my life - until recently).

As for the thread, I would just like to ask you guys if you find it odd that ILOVEYOU seemed to have vanished the moment KingsOfBS arrived?  I would venture to suggest that he may have been so overwhelmed by your thought-provoking questions that he found a theologian or christian apologist to try to do battle with our logic.  This of course is just my random hypothesis, but I am interested to know if any of you were thinking the same thing.

Pardon my obvious sarcasm as I forgot the last part of his screen name and replaced it with my general impression that I have received so far.

[ILOVEYOU]

Hello all, I'm new here at the WWGHA forums!  I will make a point to head over to the introduction section sometime soon and post more about myself, but just for a prelude:  I am an agnostic athiest (raised in a Christian family, and generally unsure about the whole thing for most of my life - until recently).

As for the thread, I would just like to ask you guys if you find it odd that ILOVEYOU seemed to have vanished the moment KingsOfBS arrived?  I would venture to suggest that he may have been so overwhelmed by your thought-provoking questions that he found a theologian or christian apologist to try to do battle with our logic.  This of course is just my random hypothesis, but I am interested to know if any of you were thinking the same thing.

Pardon my obvious sarcasm as I forgot the last part of his screen name and replaced it with my general impression that I have received so far.

I don't know who you are and what you are claiming isn't true. I actually stopped reading the thread right about the time KoB started posting. I really haven't read any of his posts. I have checked in from time to time though. So your assumption is wrong. I just wanted to clear this up.

If you want to ask me a question, then go ahead. I still check in but I am really not interested in arguing. I am secure in my faith and have more than enough evidence in my life to believe. It's not up to me to prove anything to anyone here. I am more than happy to share my faith with anyone willing and wanting to know. While I also respect anyone's right to disagree. If I can answer I will.

[Emily]

As for the thread, I would just like to ask you guys if you find it odd that ILOVEYOU seemed to have vanished the moment KingsOfBS arrived?  I would venture to suggest that he may have been so overwhelmed by your thought-provoking questions that he found a theologian or christian apologist to try to do battle with our logic.  This of course is just my random hypothesis, but I am interested to know if any of you were thinking the same thing.

People come and people go all the time. We all have lives outside the internet. Some people just get tired with this forum, newbies and veterans alike. If ILY did leave and find someone to come here there is nothing wrong with it and there's really no way to know. The only thing wrong would be if ILY created a sock puppet, and the mods would easily be able to figure out if a sock was created.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

[velkyn]

I don't know who you are and what you are claiming isn't true. I actually stopped reading the thread right about the time KoB started posting. I really haven't read any of his posts. I have checked in from time to time though. So your assumption is wrong. I just wanted to clear this up.

If you want to ask me a question, then go ahead. I still check in but I am really not interested in arguing. I am secure in my faith and have more than enough evidence in my life to believe. It's not up to me to prove anything to anyone here. I am more than happy to share my faith with anyone willing and wanting to know. While I also respect anyone's right to disagree. If I can answer I will.

you've been asked questions and have not answered them.  You have also been shown that your claims are false but you seem unable to admit it, so I'm am indeed sure that you are not interested in supporting your nonsense.  I wonder, are you praying very hard and checking in to see if those prayers work?  This is a discussion forum, ILY, not a soapbox for theists who want to prate on how great they are since they have some magical secret about the universe. 

[OnlyClarity]

ILOVEYOU,

It is my honest belief that there is no point in my asking you a question.  You have proven time and time again throughout this thread that you do not answer questions, and when you do respond to them, it is nothing more than your unsupported assertions and very preachy remarks.  You may be quite certain of your beliefs, but the vast majority of us don't believe in fairy tales anymore.  You have yet to prove that your beliefs deserve special recognition or even basic consideration for that matter. 

Why don't you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?  He's out there, healing people with his noodly appendages every day.  You can't see him or hear him, but trust me..if you just "open your ears and listen", he will save you from eternal damnation.  Hell, he will even forgive your sins if you just believe!

Do you see how the use of your "just believe" logic fails in the real world?  If you use the same illogical methods that you used to support your current beliefs, you would end up believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever other mystical god or being that someone pitches to you on a street corner. 

Try it, apply the same steps that you told us to use:

1. You just need to have faith (regardless of any and all evidence that does not support the claim).
2. You don't believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real? You just aren't trying hard enough! Where's your faith? (repeat step one until you start to believe).
3. When presented with valid, and supported evidence that Flying Spaghetti Monster logic fails, just try one of the following:
--Ignore the person who's claims you disagree with and their questions/comments.
--Respond to the person, but don't respond to the main points.  Be as vague as possible.
--Try to convince the people questioning you that they are being rude or mean to you by questioning your illogical methods and claims.
4.  When unable to convince anyone to fall for your methods of belief, just say that don't want to argue (despite the fact that you are on a web forum designed for the debate and discussion of topics)


The bottom line is that you have a belief system that is not supported by evidence or truth.  Your god is no more real than a magic teapot or a sparkling white dragon with a unicorn horn.  If there was a book about a sparkling white dragon written by a bunch of second or third-hand parties, you would have to believe in that too - because faith requires that you do.  If you did not want to be questioned about your beliefs, you definitely came to the wrong place.  The members here expect that you back up your assertions and claims with evidence, not just your illogical claim that we haven't opened our ears or hearts enough.  I'm sure that is the same line cult leaders use on those questioning their belief system:  "Hey man, you just have to trust me and have some faith!  Drinking the KoolAid will give you mystical powers - why don't you just do it first and ask questions later."

Not gonna happen for this guy.  I will always keep looking for the truth by allowing people to prove me wrong with evidence.  The difference between you and me is that I don't claim to have the truth already.  All I have is what I believe to be the closest thing to the truth based on all of the evidence provided to me.  What you have is a 2000 year old collection of hearsay and second/third-hand tales of magical crap.  You are not pursuing truth at all.  You are pursuing what you want to be true and backing it up with a book that says so.  Don't agree with us yet?  You just aren't opening your ears/heart enough.

[magicmiles]

What you have is a 2000 year old collection of hearsay and second/third-hand tales of magical crap.  You are not pursuing truth at all.  You are pursuing what you want to be true and backing it up with a book that says so. 

It's amazing how such a book can instantly change lives seemingly all on its own. No preaching required, no coercion, just the book itself. At our church last year a Hindu priest who walked past on his way to work happened to attend a worship service on impulse. He was given a bible, and took it home. He read it cover to cover in less than a week and knew he had found the truth. He became a Christian at great personal expense.

Now I find that simply amazing, and it certainly flies in the face of the common rebuttal of Christian faith that "you just believe what you've been taught all your life". I know that isn't a rare and isolated occurrence either.

It doesn't prove God exists in any empirical way, but it certainly strengthens my faith.

[jetson]

MM,

The exact opposite also happens fairly regularly.  Your thoughts on reading the Bible and dropping ones beliefs completely?

[Brakeman]

MM,

That is soo rare, that I must admit that I doubt it's veracity. Is it possible to get this Indian's contacts to invite him to the forum? I'd love to hear his own words.

[jaimehlers]

OnlyClarity:  Not a bad second post; clear, concise, coherent.  If I may be so bold, if you want to see the efforts of another Christian apologist at work, look up Olivianus.  His most recent post is in Religion and Society, so it shouldn't be hard to spot.  I do reasonably well at countering his actual points, but I must admit that I have trouble putting things together in the sort of cohesive whole you just demonstrated.  And better yet, you avoided being aggressive about it too.

[magicmiles]

(response to Jetson)

Of those I know personally that this applies to, (my brother, for one) it has certainly been more than just the content of the bible on it's own which leads them to abandon faith.

I would be surprised if somebody ever went from having Christian beliefs to having none in the period of a week, it appears to be more a gradual thing, with several factors involved, and they then start to see the bible through different eyes.

[Ambassador Pony]

With the proper expectations to color experience, reading pretty much anything will lead to an effect. Nothing special here.

It's all labeling.

[magicmiles]

MM,

That is soo rare, that I must admit that I doubt it's veracity. Is it possible to get this Indian's contacts to invite him to the forum? I'd love to hear his own words.

I'm hesitant to ask him, simply because he has recently shared with us that he has taken on too many committments in recent weeks and is fairly wrung out.

I'm telling you the absolute truth on this, based on what he has related to us.

[jetson]

Well, I was not thinking about a specific time period.  But thanks for the reply.

[Brakeman]

I'm hesitant to ask him, simply because he has recently shared with us that he has taken on too many commitments in recent weeks and is fairly wrung out.
..

Perhaps you could remind him that god COMMANDED, not requested, that christians go out into the world and share their faith with unbelievers so that they may know god. I speak for myself, I want to know god if he is real and not a liar's con game.

If he knows god is real and yet moons jesus' commandments by not talking to us, what would that mean? What kind of commitment trumps jesus' call? I kind of remember that Jonah was a bit reluctant too, but you remember what happened to him don't you? Tell your friend not to get too close to any bodies of water..

[magicmiles]

I'm hesitant to ask him, simply because he has recently shared with us that he has taken on too many commitments in recent weeks and is fairly wrung out.
..

Perhaps you could remind him that god COMMANDED, not requested, that christians go out into the world and share their faith with unbelievers so that they may know god. I speak for myself, I want to know god if he is real and not a liar's con game.

If he knows god is real and yet moons jesus' commandments by not talking to us, what would that mean? What kind of commitment trumps jesus' call? I kind of remember that Jonah was a bit reluctant too, but you remember what happened to him don't you? Tell your friend not to get too close to any bodies of water..

He is fulfilling that call better than most Christians I know, and if God holds anyone accountable for his not telling you his story it will be me, as he is unaware of this site's existence.

[OnlyClarity]

What you have is a 2000 year old collection of hearsay and second/third-hand tales of magical crap.  You are not pursuing truth at all.  You are pursuing what you want to be true and backing it up with a book that says so. 

It's amazing how such a book can instantly change lives seemingly all on its own. No preaching required, no coercion, just the book itself. At our church last year a Hindu priest who walked past on his way to work happened to attend a worship service on impulse. He was given a bible, and took it home. He read it cover to cover in less than a week and knew he had found the truth. He became a Christian at great personal expense.

Now I find that simply amazing, and it certainly flies in the face of the common rebuttal of Christian faith that "you just believe what you've been taught all your life". I know that isn't a rare and isolated occurrence either.

It doesn't prove God exists in any empirical way, but it certainly strengthens my faith.

I'm pretty sure this says nothing as far as the validity of Christianity is concerned.  That is kind of like saying a Christian randomly decides to walk into an Islamic place of worship and is handed a Koran.  He then reads it within a weeks time and instantly knows it is the real truth (tm).  Do you see the flaw in your argument?  Hell, by that logic you could have read through this forum and you would have become an atheist.  Just reading something doesn't make it true.  Evidence that supports a claim makes it true, and your belief system is one that spits in the face of evidence.  Evidence is the enemy of religion.  The goal of faith is to make you close your eyes to evidence so that you can continue to believe anything you want despite its falsehood.

It's amazing how such a book can instantly change lives seemingly all on its own. No preaching required, no coercion, just the book itself.

I have a problem with this as well.  The bible itself and the message it contains is preaching and coercion.  It is preaching because almost all of the main characters spout the word of god.  If that isn't preaching then I don't know what is.

The bible is more coercive than anything I know.  How can you tell your own flawed creation that they must love and worship you or else you will burn for eternity in hell.  That is coercion at its finest: do this, or else.  The sickest thing about the bible is that it isn't only a threat on life, its a threat for eternity thereafter as well.  Even a human can't use coercion to this extent.  The bible sure takes the gold on the use of coercion.

[Add Homonym]

It's amazing how such a book can instantly change lives seemingly all on its own. No preaching required, no coercion, just the book itself.

I didn't realize that is what Christianity was! It's brought me a whole new respect for it.

Listen guys: Christianity is just some books lying around on the ground. You pick them up, and read them, and then you become a convert. Then you don't tell anyone.

Nobody printed the books. There is no multinational empire Roman church. There is no power-hungry institution trying to get hold of government, and preaching shit at you. You don't have parents who have been converted. You also don't have a craving for mystical shit, afterlife and conformity. It's just these books, and nobody has to explain the book to you, either. Nobody comes onto forums and tries to convert you. They don't have to, because the books are so awesome.

Hey guys, has any of you read any of the books? I don't think you could have.

[magicmiles]

I think you're missing my point, OC.

The lack of coercion and preaching I noted was a lack of any external preaching. No skilful, manipulative oration and emotional beseeching. Certainly the bible preaches a very clear and consistent message - part of it's uniqueness, given it was written by many people over many years. My point is that my friend was convinced that what he was reading was true, and as Brakeman stated, that is pretty amazing given he had been brought up as a Hindu and was in fact born into a family of priests.

For a book of lies or fantasy written so long ago ( by men separated by hundreds of years and who didn't know each other ) to do that...I for one have never given the notion any serious credence.

[magicmiles]

It's amazing how such a book can instantly change lives seemingly all on its own. No preaching required, no coercion, just the book itself.

I didn't realize that is what Christianity was! It's brought me a whole new respect for it.

Listen guys: Christianity is just some books lying around on the ground. You pick them up, and read them, and then you become a convert. Then you don't tell anyone.

Nobody printed the books. There is no multinational empire Roman church. There is no power-hungry institution trying to get hold of government, and preaching shit at you. You don't have parents who have been converted. You also don't have a craving for mystical shit, afterlife and conformity. It's just these books, and nobody has to explain the book to you, either. Nobody comes onto forums and tries to convert you. They don't have to, because the books are so awesome.

Hey guys, has any of you read any of the books? I don't think you could have.

Yep...despite all the religious crap that is very unfortunately associated with the bible, my friend simply read it and believed.

That's not necessarily an indictment on any of you that have read it and haven't believed..or maybe it is. I don't know your hearts.

[Add Homonym]

Yep...despite all the religious crap that is very unfortunately associated with the bible, my friend simply read it and believed.

You mean, by "associated", stuff that's written in it. Like sacrificing your first-born, and stoning raped women, condemnation of homosexuality, condonement of slavery?

What did he actually believe, because Matthew contradicts John.

[magicmiles]

You mean, by "associated", stuff that's written in it. Like sacrificing your first-born, and stoning raped women, condemnation of homosexuality, condonement of slavery?

I meant churches which are greedy and full of hypocrites, divisive and power hungry.

What did he actually believe, because Matthew contradicts John.

He believed that the God in the Christian bible is the one true God and is worthy of our praise and worship. He believed it despite not having a Christian upbringing, and without having the opportunity to study and seek explanations for things in the bible which don't always gel with us or seem contradictory.

He simply believed the message he clearly saw.

I wasn't meaning to start something here...just telling you about something that happened in response to an interesting post.