I AM FREE!!!!!!!!

[doubtingthomas1122]

THANK YOU WWGHA

Let me start at the beginning.

I am 32, a husband, father, ordained christian minister, and I hold a Masters in IT Management.

For years and years I had secret doubts.........people saying OH GOD ANSWERED MY PRAYER........and me thinking......Then why did you need the triple bypass or the 4 months in the ICU?

I always found it funny that the hard stuff never got answered.

God why cant you feed the children in Africa?

God why can't you heal a broken arm?

The Bible is very very clear about healing and yet I was disappointed every way I turned and I had to make excuses for God.......

Maybe you did not have enough faith......but I knew that having a prayer answered did not have a stipulation of huge faith, you only needed very little faith.

OR,

It's not Gods will........really?........So why do you always eventual get better if its a broken arm or something similar? If it was not Gods will then it would never heal.

OR,

Why does the church never see God intervene?  Why if we are doing his work is it always a struggle to pay the bills of the church?

But it will be a long road to come to terms with my new self..........

Thank you WWGHA

[Benny]

Great to hear, Thomas!  Welcome to the forum

[kin hell]

Greetings fellow earthling

I pray for a rational world 

.....and god is obviously answering my prayers one convert to rationality at a time

[Nick]

Wow, that is a turn around.  How are you going to come to terms with the family and church?  Or just float along in the delusion of others.

[Historicity]

Why does the church never see God intervene?  Why if we are doing his work is it always a struggle to pay the bills of the church?

Here's my favorite example.

In 1618 the Catholics of the Holy Roman Empire declared a crusade against the Lutherans.  The war surged back and forth across Germany.  Soldiers would loot a house and then torture the man of the house (or the women) to reveal the hidden gold.  Then the battle line would shift and the same household would be raided by the other side.  This time there would be no treasures to reveal and the family would be tortured to death.  Various nations sent armies to join.

It went on for 30 years until Cardinal Richelieu (who had crushed Protestants and Rochelle) realized that the Holy Roman Empire (essentially Spain and Austria in modern terms) would have France surrounded.  So he put Catholic France on the Lutheran side.

The Thirty Years War ended in a draw.

The justification for the many crusades (little known fact: The Norman Conquest of England was an authorized crusade) was their victories were the Will of God.  Or their defeats were due to soldiers sinning by whoring and drinking.  Or the indefinable sin of pride.  (You are humble?  Very humble?  But are you proud of your humility?)  Or God gave (temporary) victory to the idol worshipping Moslems[1] to make you fear and tremble and try harder.

But both sides were very, very, very Christian (tho not their mercenary soldiers).  Where was God?  Honest Christians honestly could not come to a secure insight as to the meaning of the NT.  God should have given victory to the One True Church side.  Or since it was about vagueness and interpretation, a prophet of undoubted miracles (including the miracle of being bulletproof).  Or an angel with a flaming sword above the battlefields declaring Peace.

The Christian world was permanently split and it made the Catholic/Orthodox split seem a mere quibble.

God did nothing because ....

You finish the enthymeme.

1.	See the Song of Roland for that allegation

[doubtingthomas1122]

Wow, that is a turn around.  How are you going to come to terms with the family and church?  Or just float along in the delusion of others.

Easy just ask them why want God heal amputee's?

Let them make excuses for God and see if they realize how stupid they sound and how long it takes them to realize they are contradicting the very thing they believe in......thats what happened to me.

[jetson]

Wow, that is a turn around.  How are you going to come to terms with the family and church?  Or just float along in the delusion of others.

Easy just ask them why want God heal amputee's?

Let them make excuses for God and see if they realize how stupid they sound and how long it takes them to realize they are contradicting the very thing they believe in......thats what happened to me.

I love the main question this website proposes.  It is a perfect question, that is completely unanswered.  There isn't even a good guess.  It's easy to get Christians talking about how God physically intervenes and actually cures people through prayer.  But bring on an amputee, and all bets are off.

The reason we know God is imaginary, is because he does not heal amputees.

[Chronos]

Hello! Greetings! Welcome!

Have you read Dan Barker's Losing Faith in Faith? Many others deride the book as convoluted or choppy, but I found it to be revealing and excellent.

Tell us about your path ...

[ParkingPlaces]

Welcome DT. I am pleasantly surprised that you are pleasantly surprised. Do you mind sticking around and sticking it to those who still believe. You'll blow some minds.

[doubtingthomas1122]

Welcome DT. I am pleasantly surprised that you are pleasantly surprised. Do you mind sticking around and sticking it to those who still believe. You'll blow some minds.

Let me tell you my real turning point.

AND let me share a little understanding.

My turning point was in a class held at our church called  - supernatural living 

They talked about healing and this is were I had a lot of questions.

I asked so if I am sick and you pray for me to get better instantly I should according to

Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

the group all said yes ------

I said ok I have arthritis in my right shoulder lets heal it........so they all prayed and nothing happened.

I asked why nothing happened and they all said well maybe it is not Gods will or maybe you don't have enough faith.........

I said really? So I can cause an all powerful being know as God to not be able to do something WOW that's amazing. So how does my will supersede that will of a perfect all powerful being. Then all i get are excuses for why God chooses not to answer my prayer........

That was when I was like ...........hmmmmm........lets look into this a little more..........

So I examined my life and i seen were everything i had accomplished, all the good was because i made changes in my life not because "God" choose to bless me.

I also took a look at the Bible and really did some digging......Did you know there are huge differences between an actual 1611 KJV and the 1886 and 1915 Bibles as well as the newer translations we see........they all cant be the perfect word of God cause they are not the same so what gives?

Also, I thought what if i was raised Islam .......there would be no convincing me that Christianity was true and vis versa....... This was a turning point also.

.......So, my point is to all this, I......as a human being......should never have to make excuses for a perfect all knowing god and because i do in order to justify my faith then something is terribly wrong..........That's it....that is what got me.

My final issue is ---

If the will of God is perfect then it should be known and if it is absolute it should be absolutely known to everyone across all nations and time and space. Because it is not and because God needs me to spread his word......come on really? An all powerful being needs humans.....WOW how arogant of us.

I could go on but i will leave it at that.



 

[Traveler]

Welcome, welcome, welcome!!! I love hearing your story, it's very, very interesting. I never have believed in god, so it fascinates me to hear the processes that people go through. I'm a second generation nonbeliever. My dad gave up religion when the priests tried to tell him what books he could and couldn't read. He was a young teenager at the time, and died at the age of 82, still an agnostic secular humanist. My mom gave up her religion when they told her she shouldn't ask questions. She also was young at the time. She's now 80, and while she isn't sure what she is, she's sure she isn't christian.

I hope you enjoy it here!

[pianodwarf]

Hi, DoubtingThomas, welcome to WWGHA.  It's always nice to see another mind freed from the shackles of religion.

I see that you're still in the pulpit.  You may benefit from the Clergy Project:
http://clergyproject.org/
It's a safe haven for clergymen who have lost their faith and need help leaving the clergy to start new lives, a process which can be very difficult for quite a few reasons.  The Clergy Project has a public arena for ordinary folks like me, and a private area for current clergymen to discuss their problems and concerns.  The private area is anonymous, and all clergy are vetted before being permitted to join it.  It may be helpful to you, and you may also be able to provide some help to others who are having difficulties you can sympathize with.

Welcome to reality.  We hope you enjoy your stay. 

[doubtingthomas1122]

Hi, DoubtingThomas, welcome to WWGHA.  It's always nice to see another mind freed from the shackles of religion.

I see that you're still in the pulpit.  You may benefit from the Clergy Project:
http://clergyproject.org/
It's a safe haven for clergymen who have lost their faith and need help leaving the clergy to start new lives, a process which can be very difficult for quite a few reasons.  The Clergy Project has a public arena for ordinary folks like me, and a private area for current clergymen to discuss their problems and concerns.  The private area is anonymous, and all clergy are vetted before being permitted to join it.  It may be helpful to you, and you may also be able to provide some help to others who are having difficulties you can sympathize with.

Welcome to reality.  We hope you enjoy your stay. 

Thank you I did submit my application.

[One Above All]

Welcome. My name is Lucifer.[1]

1.	You posted on my intro thread; I'm guessing that you read it as well, so we'll leave it at that.

[ParkingPlaces]

Welcome DT. I am pleasantly surprised that you are pleasantly surprised. Do you mind sticking around and sticking it to those who still believe. You'll blow some minds.

Let me tell you my real turning point.

AND let me share a little understanding.

My turning point was in a class held at our church called  - supernatural living 

They talked about healing and this is were I had a lot of questions.

I asked so if I am sick and you pray for me to get better instantly I should according to

Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

the group all said yes ------

I said ok I have arthritis in my right shoulder lets heal it........so they all prayed and nothing happened.

I asked why nothing happened and they all said well maybe it is not Gods will or maybe you don't have enough faith.........

I said really? So I can cause an all powerful being know as God to not be able to do something WOW that's amazing. So how does my will supersede that will of a perfect all powerful being. Then all i get are excuses for why God chooses not to answer my prayer........

That was when I was like ...........hmmmmm........lets look into this a little more..........

So I examined my life and i seen were everything i had accomplished, all the good was because i made changes in my life not because "God" choose to bless me.

I also took a look at the Bible and really did some digging......Did you know there are huge differences between an actual 1611 KJV and the 1886 and 1915 Bibles as well as the newer translations we see........they all cant be the perfect word of God cause they are not the same so what gives?

Also, I thought what if i was raised Islam .......there would be no convincing me that Christianity was true and vis versa....... This was a turning point also.

.......So, my point is to all this, I......as a human being......should never have to make excuses for a perfect all knowing god and because i do in order to justify my faith then something is terribly wrong..........That's it....that is what got me.

My final issue is ---

If the will of God is perfect then it should be known and if it is absolute it should be absolutely known to everyone across all nations and time and space. Because it is not and because God needs me to spread his word......come on really? An all powerful being needs humans.....WOW how arogant of us.

I could go on but i will leave it at that.



 

You did religion wrong. Didn't you see the sign over the front door? The one that says "No thinking allowed!"

Glad you figured it out. How the most powerful thing in the whole universe could be undetectable I don't know, but that's what we keep hearing.

This is a great place to find out what other non-believers think, as well finding out the wide variety of beliefs various christians (and others) have about their sky-daddy. Personally I am always astounded by the variety of beliefs that are lumped together under the label "christian". What better way to prove there is no god than to listen to the myriad excuses of the faithful.

I repeat. Stick around. It's fun.

[monkeymind]

Welcome!