Author Topic: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept  (Read 4585 times)

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Offline JII

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The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« on: October 31, 2008, 06:30:32 PM »
In the beginning...  an omnipotent being roams empty space - since forever.

Omnipotent Being:

"Doo..de..doo... do..de..di..dooo..."

"Damn, it’s boring around here. It seems like I’ve been out here, by myself, for an eternity. Wait a dog gone minute! I know what I could do! I could Create the Universe, the Earth, and... People! I could make them with knees, so they could worship me.  First, I’ll teach them the rules, then, I'll wow them with some razzle dazzle and hocus pocus.  Eventually, I can kick back, and expect them to have blind “faith” in me. Why? Cause I'll be hidin' like a somabitch! What a hoot! This will be so gratifying!"

"Abraa..."

Offline mary

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2008, 06:37:34 PM »
If you can let go of the human concept of space and time, which God does not use, you will realize how unintelligent you sound in this post.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2008, 06:42:29 PM »
Mary, what concept of space and time do you suggest he use?
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Offline ;)

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 06:44:48 PM »
Quote
If you can let go of the human concept of space and time, which God does not use, you will realize how unintelligent you sound in this post.

Of course!
God's just residing in some other dimensions, he can use whichever he feels like using.
My, the intelligence.
Our freedom's consuming itself.

Offline JII

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2008, 06:45:36 PM »
If you can let go of the human concept of space and time, which God does not use, you will realize how unintelligent you sound in this post.

It's called satire.

Offline mary

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2008, 06:52:31 PM »
I wasn't saying that you are unintelligent.
The problem is that you can't give up science, which hasn't proven God exists or doesn't exist. Science has done a great deal of good throughout history but logic doesn't apply when thinking about God. You try to contain him in this small box of logic and proof but He is greater than the box. He goes outside of that box and outside of your comfort zone which causes you to demand proof and miracles.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2008, 06:55:26 PM »
Mary, what concept of space and time do you suggest he use?
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Offline JII

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2008, 06:59:36 PM »
which causes you to demand proof and miracles.

The "Miracles on Hold" concept has never worked for me.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2008, 07:04:11 PM »
I wasn't saying that you are unintelligent.
The problem is that you can't give up science, which hasn't proven God exists or doesn't exist. Science has done a great deal of good throughout history but logic doesn't apply when thinking about God. You try to contain him in this small box of logic and proof but He is greater than the box. He goes outside of that box and outside of your comfort zone which causes you to demand proof and miracles.

We just want to see what the people in the bible saw. Why should they be treated differently than us?
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline mary

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2008, 07:06:59 PM »
which causes you to demand proof and miracles.

The "Miracles on Hold" concept has never worked for me.

And it may never work for you.

Mary, what concept of space and time do you suggest he use?

How should I know what method of time He uses? How can you prove to me what time it is right now? That there is or is not life on other planets?

I wasn't saying that you are unintelligent.
The problem is that you can't give up science, which hasn't proven God exists or doesn't exist. Science has done a great deal of good throughout history but logic doesn't apply when thinking about God. You try to contain him in this small box of logic and proof but He is greater than the box. He goes outside of that box and outside of your comfort zone which causes you to demand proof and miracles.

We just want to see what the people in the bible saw. Why should they be treated differently than us?

People in the Bible saw and still didn't believe. How do you know that you haven't been shown and just weren't looking?

Offline Idioteque

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2008, 07:13:28 PM »
Quote
People in the Bible saw and still didn't believe. How do you know that you haven't been shown and just weren't looking?

I have not seen a sea part
I have not seen food being produced from nowhere (starving countries perhaps?)
I have not seen an disease or disability cured without ambiguity
I have not seen a person rise from the dead
I have not seen a person who has risen from the dead appear before me

I have not, nor has anyone else, seen anything happen that could not be explained by chance, luck, or scientific principles.

Have you?
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there

Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2008, 07:18:36 PM »
Mary, what concept of space and time do you suggest he use?
How should I know what method of time He uses?

And I quote:

If you can let go of the human concept of space and time, which God does not use, you will realize how unintelligent you sound in this post.

You are clearly implying that you know what concept of space and time he is using.  Regardless, I wasn't asking about the concept he is using (which you would realize, if you read my post).  I was asking you what concept of space and time he should be using, in your opinion.  You suggested that he let go of the human concept of space and time.  This implies that you know of an alternative.  My question was about this alternative concept of space and time.  What is it?

How can you prove to me what time it is right now? That there is or is not life on other planets?

Chances are, the time is different where you are than where I am (24-hour world and all that).  Regarding life on other planets, why would anyone make positive claims about life on other planets?  Not that it's relevant to my question above.
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Offline mary

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2008, 07:24:23 PM »
Quote
People in the Bible saw and still didn't believe. How do you know that you haven't been shown and just weren't looking?

I have not seen a sea part
I have not seen food being produced from nowhere (starving countries perhaps?)
I have not seen an disease or disability cured without ambiguity
I have not seen a person rise from the dead
I have not seen a person who has risen from the dead appear before me

I have not, nor has anyone else, seen anything happen that could not be explained by chance, luck, or scientific principles.



Have you?

The sea parted before their eyes and yet the Egyptians built golden calfs.
The disciples didn't understand the meaning of the feeding of 5000
Jesus rose people from the dead, and they appeared before others but not all believed
I have seen what I believe to be a miracle, and i stress that I believe it not that it was. A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?

Offline mary

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2008, 07:26:12 PM »
Mary, what concept of space and time do you suggest he use?
How should I know what method of time He uses?

And I quote:

If you can let go of the human concept of space and time, which God does not use, you will realize how unintelligent you sound in this post.

You are clearly implying that you know what concept of space and time he is using.  Regardless, I wasn't asking about the concept he is using (which you would realize, if you read my post).  I was asking you what concept of space and time he should be using, in your opinion.  You suggested that he let go of the human concept of space and time.  This implies that you know of an alternative.  My question was about this alternative concept of space and time.  What is it?

How can you prove to me what time it is right now? That there is or is not life on other planets?

Chances are, the time is different where you are than where I am (24-hour world and all that).  Regarding life on other planets, why would anyone make positive claims about life on other planets?  Not that it's relevant to my question above.


A. God is all knowing I am not
B. You are avoiding my question about proving that time even really exists
B.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2008, 07:29:11 PM »
A. Are you saying that you know of no alternative to to the human concept of time, yet are suggesting abandoning it anyway?
B. I can't prove it.  That is, however, immaterial to the discussion.  I never claimed I could prove that the human concept of time was true.  Your question, while valid, has no relation to this discussion.
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Offline mary

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2008, 07:34:15 PM »
A. I am saying that human concept of time does not apply to God. that does not mean I am abandoning it. I just choose not to limit God to it.
B. You cannot prove time yet you have faith that time is what it is and you follow blindly that it is right? You trust that time will continue and that it will guide you to be where you need to be?
Is that correct or am I just making stuff up? (not sarcasm)

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2008, 07:38:49 PM »
The problem is that you can't give up science, which hasn't proven God exists or doesn't exist.

Yet another who has it all backwards. The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence to the claims made, but to entertain you, here's two books which you might enjoy if you care at all about what is true:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Failed-Hypothesis-Science-Shows/dp/1591026520/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225499214&sr=1-2


http://www.amazon.com/Irreligion-Mathematician-Explains-Arguments-Just/dp/0809059193/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225499268&sr=1-1


Quote
Science has done a great deal of good throughout history but logic doesn't apply when thinking about God.

Excuse me?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  Baseless assertion. Science is open to ALL, I repeat ALL observable phenomena. A person's dream world is just that, a dream world.




Quote
You try to contain him in this small box of logic and proof but He is greater than the box.

Science (the extrapolation of our senses), and reason and logic, critical thinking and inquiry, rational thinking, observation, is all we have.  If you are asserting something beyond that, then all bets are off and anything goes.

Is the existance of what we can observe made easier or harder to understand by suggesting things which we cannot observe?

Please answer the above question.




Quote
He goes outside of that box and outside of your comfort zone which causes you to demand proof and miracles.

Ooooh, another baseless assertion!  If you describe all that we "know" as a "comfort zone", you have entered the twilight zone of special pleading.  The next time you have a serious injury or illness, take note on how quickly you RUN to the established realm of science and don't show too much interest in mystical claims.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 07:40:49 PM by Star Stuff »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2008, 07:44:50 PM »
A. I am saying that human concept of time does not apply to God. that does not mean I am abandoning it. I just choose not to limit God to it.

Alright then, what concept of time do you suppose we keep in mind when thinking about God?

B. You cannot prove time yet you have faith that time is what it is and you follow blindly that it is right?  You trust that time will continue and that it will guide you to be where you need to be?

The way it works is close enough to the way I percieve it that my concept of it has predictive power; it is a functional observation.  My trust of time is similar to the trust I have that (to repeat an overused example) my keyboard will not spontaneously transform into lava and burn off my legs.

Is that correct or am I just making stuff up? (not sarcasm)

You seem to have a very limited understanding of epistemology.  Are you a solipsist?
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2008, 07:59:30 PM »
Quote
How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental?
Well, to ask a question in return, how would you describe the difference between "Cancer suddenly disappearing because of a miracle" and "Cancer suddenly disappearing because the imune system managed to get rid of it"?

Our body is capable to deal with alot of stuff. No need to call it a "wonder", if something happens, that nobody predicted.


Quote
How can science take credit for that?
If a body manages to heal itself without meds, science rarely takes credit for that. Science usually only takes credit, if the body was restored using meds and medical treatment.

To ask another question: How can religion take credit for successfull medical treatment on a regular basis?
Absilio Mundus!

I can do no wrong. For I do not know what it is.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2008, 08:13:31 PM »
I have seen what I believe to be a miracle, and i stress that I believe it not that it was. A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?

Beautiful.  So, can you possibly see how we might view this as you "counting the hits, and ignoring the misses"?  What do you suppose is going on in the mind of your particular deity when the vast majority of cancers result in the slow, painful, miserable, suffering death of those who happen to contract it?  Does your daddy figure in the sky fold his arms and say "nope, that one dies".

Paleeze.
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Offline Jelpy

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2008, 12:51:39 AM »
A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?

Wait a minute!! How can you equate a lump with cancer?!

Unless there were actual physical "samplings" (I don't recall the medical term off the top of my head; and English isn't my native language either, it's my 3rd one) that was analyzed and found cancerous, lumps could be something else.

I've had 2 or 3 lumps in my body thruout my life (not at the same time) that instantly disappeared and were not cancerous that I know of.

And for your information: prayers NEVER **EVER** WORK!!! But this topic deserves a thread of its own.

Offline Jelpy

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2008, 12:54:18 AM »

B. You cannot prove time yet you have faith that time is what it is and you follow blindly that it is right? You trust that time will continue and that it will guide you to be where you need to be?
Is that correct or am I just making stuff up? (not sarcasm)

Time is just man's construct!! It's not about proving it because it doesn't really exist.

It's a measuring unit like all the others to help organizing social activities: time like distance, weight, speed, volume, temperature, size, etc. to help commerce, trade, exchanges, travel, appointments, schedules, etc.

Offline Jelpy

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2008, 12:55:32 AM »
I wasn't saying that you are unintelligent.
The problem is that you can't give up science, which hasn't proven God exists or doesn't exist. Science has done a great deal of good throughout history but logic doesn't apply when thinking about God. You try to contain him in this small box of logic and proof but He is greater than the box. He goes outside of that box and outside of your comfort zone which causes you to demand proof and miracles.

Mary, do you even know, better: understand what science is?!

Please define the concept of science in just a few of your own words and without looking up any reference!!

My definition is the simplest anyone could find: 3 words, of which 2 are keywords!!

If you would/could actually understand what science is, you'd understand that it encompasses EVERYTHING, **EVEN** GOD WERE IT TO EXIST!!!!

Offline learnin

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2008, 02:54:04 AM »
Quote
People in the Bible saw and still didn't believe. How do you know that you haven't been shown and just weren't looking?

I have not seen a sea part
I have not seen food being produced from nowhere (starving countries perhaps?)
I have not seen an disease or disability cured without ambiguity
I have not seen a person rise from the dead
I have not seen a person who has risen from the dead appear before me

I have not, nor has anyone else, seen anything happen that could not be explained by chance, luck, or scientific principles.



Have you?

The sea parted before their eyes and yet the Egyptians built golden calfs.
The disciples didn't understand the meaning of the feeding of 5000
Jesus rose people from the dead, and they appeared before others but not all believed
I have seen what I believe to be a miracle, and i stress that I believe it not that it was. A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?


Mary,
      With all due respect, you'll have to do better than this.  I do breast ultrasound examinations and assist in guiding the physician during breast biopsies.

1.   It is extremely rare for a 19 year old to have breast cancer.  Not impossible, but very rare.
2.   Most breast lumps, in that age group, are cysts.  There is no way to know if the lump is a cyst without ultrasound.
3.   If it was not cystic, it still could be a benign solid lump.
4.   Cysts resolve on their own and are usually, in that age group, connected with menses.

Therefore, unless the girl had an ultrasound and biopsy to confirm cancer, your event was not a miracle.

Offline learnin

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2008, 02:56:48 AM »
Quote
People in the Bible saw and still didn't believe. How do you know that you haven't been shown and just weren't looking?

I have not seen a sea part
I have not seen food being produced from nowhere (starving countries perhaps?)
I have not seen an disease or disability cured without ambiguity
I have not seen a person rise from the dead
I have not seen a person who has risen from the dead appear before me

I have not, nor has anyone else, seen anything happen that could not be explained by chance, luck, or scientific principles.



Have you?

The sea parted before their eyes and yet the Egyptians built golden calfs.
The disciples didn't understand the meaning of the feeding of 5000
Jesus rose people from the dead, and they appeared before others but not all believed
I have seen what I believe to be a miracle, and i stress that I believe it not that it was. A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?


Mary,
     Idioteque did not argue as to whether any particular person might believe or not, if presented with a sea parting.   The point is that it is written that God worked such miracles for others, why not now?

Offline JII

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2008, 04:17:00 AM »
The sea parted before their eyes and yet the Egyptians built golden calfs.
The disciples didn't understand the meaning of the feeding of 5000
Jesus rose people from the dead, and they appeared before others but not all believed
I have seen what I believe to be a miracle, and i stress that I believe it not that it was. A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?

Mary...The events you mention are from a book of compiled, second hand, mythological stories. It is all, hearsay, unsupported by the historical record. The portions of the Goat Herder's Guide to the Universe that defy the known physical Laws of Science, make everything else claimed in the Bible extremely unreliable testimony. You're basing your entire blind faith in the Ressurrection, on the second hand testimony of ONE, single individual - the scribe that compiled the original copies of the "Gospels". Paul's ignorance of the Gospels strongly indicate that the Gospels are, quite simply, a fictional construct.

As for prayer, you would have witnessed that same breast cancer "cure" [remission], praying to a lucky horseshoe.




Offline Goodkat

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2008, 11:51:47 PM »
Quote
People in the Bible saw and still didn't believe. How do you know that you haven't been shown and just weren't looking?

I have not seen a sea part
I have not seen food being produced from nowhere (starving countries perhaps?)
I have not seen an disease or disability cured without ambiguity
I have not seen a person rise from the dead
I have not seen a person who has risen from the dead appear before me

I have not, nor has anyone else, seen anything happen that could not be explained by chance, luck, or scientific principles.



Have you?

The sea parted before their eyes and yet the Egyptians built golden calfs.
The disciples didn't understand the meaning of the feeding of 5000
Jesus rose people from the dead, and they appeared before others but not all believed
I have seen what I believe to be a miracle, and i stress that I believe it not that it was. A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?
Circular reasoning, the validity of the Bible is what is in question.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2008, 08:22:23 AM »
The sea parted before their eyes and yet the Egyptians built golden calfs.
The disciples didn't understand the meaning of the feeding of 5000
Jesus rose people from the dead, and they appeared before others but not all believed
I have seen what I believe to be a miracle, and i stress that I believe it not that it was. A 19 year old girl with breast cancer, I saw the lump and the doctors verified it. Prayer. The lump was instantly gone. I know that I cannot prove this to you but there were people there to witness it. How is cancer disappearing lucky or coincidental? How can science take credit for that?

So your god can't convince people with actual miracles and figures more people would be convinced by a book recording the miracles instead? Your god has a long history of poor decisions.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2008, 11:35:56 AM »
So your god can't convince people with actual miracles and figures more people would be convinced by a book recording the miracles instead? Your god has a long history of poor decisions.

........and a dusty, ancient book of dubious, sketchy origins at that!  Yes god, well done ol' boy!

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