Author Topic: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept  (Read 4701 times)

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Offline commsky

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2008, 01:13:22 PM »
I wasn't saying that you are unintelligent.
The problem is that you can't give up science, which hasn't proven God exists or doesn't exist. Science has done a great deal of good throughout history but logic doesn't apply when thinking about God. You try to contain him in this small box of logic and proof but He is greater than the box. He goes outside of that box and outside of your comfort zone which causes you to demand proof and miracles.
It has proven that the probability he does exist is close to 0 though
7th grade, I realize my classmates actually believe this crap.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2008, 01:26:05 PM »
I absolutely love this quote:

Those who take refuge behind theological barbed wire fences, quite often wish they could have more freedom of thought, but fear the change to the great ocean of scientific truth as they would a cold bath plunge.  (Luther Burbank)
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Offline Disciple of Christ

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2008, 09:41:32 PM »
In the beginning...  an omnipotent being roams empty space - since forever.

Omnipotent Being:

"Doo..de..doo... do..de..di..dooo..."

"Damn, it’s boring around here. It seems like I’ve been out here, by myself, for an eternity. Wait a dog gone minute! I know what I could do! I could Create the Universe, the Earth, and... People! I could make them with knees, so they could worship me.  First, I’ll teach them the rules, then, I'll wow them with some razzle dazzle and hocus pocus.  Eventually, I can kick back, and expect them to have blind “faith” in me. Why? Cause I'll be hidin' like a somabitch! What a hoot! This will be so gratifying!"

"Abraa..."


Well, considering before the Universe was formed. "Space and Time" didn't exist. So what was "Time" before the universe began? Time was meaningless and nothingness. The existence of God is too much for the human mind to fathom. With our vast knowledge about the universe, it still doesn't matter because we will never be able to understand the power and knowledge behind the creation of all life-form and universe.

Luke 7:22 - "Go on your way, and tell John what things you have seen and heard; How that the Blind see, the Lame have walked, the Lepers are cleansed, the Deaf hear, the Dead are raised, to the Poor the Gospel is preached." - Jesus Christ 33 A.D.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2008, 09:45:20 PM »
Yes, but this grand, fantastically omnipotent, omniscient deity..................... still requires blood sacrifice doesn't he?

Please see the tinyness and pettiness of your thinking.
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Offline JII

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2008, 04:52:26 AM »
Well, considering before the Universe was formed. "Space and Time" didn't exist. So what was "Time" before the universe began? Time was meaningless and nothingness. The existence of God is too much for the human mind to fathom. With our vast knowledge about the universe, it still doesn't matter because we will never be able to understand the power and knowledge behind the creation of all life-form and universe.

Really? So, before there was space, there was non-space? Your God character from the Bible always existed, didn't require His own "creator", and just sort of hung around in "non-space". Really? What's non-space like DoC? Give us your best description of the non-space physics of the moment before time began at the center of the "known" Universe. Can't wait.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2008, 07:44:01 AM »
The existence of God is too much for the human mind to fathom.

If you believe this, did you ever stop to think that the ancient sheepherders weren't describing your god then? They were placing attributes on this entity that were simply extensions of their own lives.
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Offline Fran

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2008, 06:12:07 PM »
FROM STAR STUFF:
Yes, but this grand, fantastically omnipotent, omniscient deity..................... still requires blood sacrifice doesn't he?

Please see the tinyness and pettiness of your thinking.

It depends on what you mean by "blood sacrifice".   Your comment here is much to vague to understand exactly what you are driving at, but I'm going to try and give a response and hope that it is dealing with the point you wanted to make.

God certainly does not demand "blood scarifice" today as he did in the OT... at least not the ritual of animal sacrifice found in the Bible.   

However, the wages of sin is death, and so the word "blood", as it is used in the phrase "blood sacrifice", is talking about life and death.  Indeed, in ancient times, blood was always connected with life... because without blood, there is no life (for humans and the animals used in the sacrifices).

When an animal was sacrificed, it's blood was symbolically used (by the Priests) to "wash" away (symbolically) the sins of a person.  But the "blood sacrifice" was always temporary and it was always completely symbolic.  No where in the Bible does it ever say that the blood of an animal has an innate power in itself to somewhow actually wash away the sins of people.   

So why then did God institute the ritual of "blood sacrifice" of animals, when the death (blood) of the offender (sinner) is rightly called for (spiritually) when a person sins?  Because it was an example of God's mercy.  Instead of demanding the life of the person for their sins (which is what sin demands), God allowed a symbolic substitution (blood of animal) to temporarily wash away the sins of the person.

And that temporary substitution (blood sacrifice of animals) was replaced by the permanent substitution of the death of Christ on the cross.  So instead of animal sacrifices (which were only temporary and symbolic anyway), Jesus Christ's blood was shed on the cross to actually wash away forever and permanently the sins of a person if that person is willing to accept that substitution that Christ made on the cross on behalf of the sinner so that they do not have to pay the wages of sin, which is death.

To me, it's no more different than what happens in capital punishment.  A person pays with their own life for murder.  Well, likewise,  a person pays with their life for their sins.  We all do.  No one is exempt.    A life for a life.  Blood for blood.  Now, a judge can have mercy and either completely forgive the murderer which is highly unlikely, or he can give them a reduced sentence to life in prison with no parole... and thereby sparing the person's life so that they can die naturally.

It's much the same way with God.  But whereas an honest human judge will never allow a convicted murderer to walk away scott free without making sure a "fair"  price is paid by the guilty person for their actions, God is far more merciful because He will completely forgive us of ALL our sins if we accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.

The "blood sacrifice" of the OT is now replaced by "Jesus' sacrifice" on the cross.  Blood is shed in both.

So... far from God being tiny and petty in this case, God's institution of "blood sacrifice" in the OT, and Jesus' work on the cross, are incredibly significant, gracious, merciful and loving.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:16:29 PM by Fran »

Offline Disciple of Christ

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2008, 06:17:05 PM »
In the beginning...  an omnipotent being roams empty space - since forever.

Omnipotent Being:

"Doo..de..doo... do..de..di..dooo..."

"Damn, it’s boring around here. It seems like I’ve been out here, by myself, for an eternity. Wait a dog gone minute! I know what I could do! I could Create the Universe, the Earth, and... People! I could make them with knees, so they could worship me.  First, I’ll teach them the rules, then, I'll wow them with some razzle dazzle and hocus pocus.  Eventually, I can kick back, and expect them to have blind “faith” in me. Why? Cause I'll be hidin' like a somabitch! What a hoot! This will be so gratifying!"

"Abraa..."


Quote
"Damn, it’s boring around here. It seems like I’ve been out here, by myself, for an eternity. Wait a dog gone minute! I know what I could do! I could Create the Universe, the Earth, and... People!

I believe there is a thread already started about, "Where the heck was Yahweh right before the Big Bang?" You are posting double threads.

Luke 7:22 - "Go on your way, and tell John what things you have seen and heard; How that the Blind see, the Lame have walked, the Lepers are cleansed, the Deaf hear, the Dead are raised, to the Poor the Gospel is preached." - Jesus Christ 33 A.D.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2008, 06:33:15 PM »
I'm sorry Fran, but while you probably feel that you have made a lengthy argument in your favor, I think that you are completely out of your mind.
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Offline I KILLED JEBUS

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2008, 10:25:30 PM »
I wasn't saying that you are unintelligent.
The problem is that you can't give up science, which hasn't proven God exists or doesn't exist. Science has done a great deal of good throughout history but [logic doesn't apply when thinking about God]. You try to contain him in this small box of logic and proof but He is greater than the box. He goes outside of that box and outside of your comfort zone which causes you to demand proof and miracles.
you got that right
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Offline Fran

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2008, 10:50:54 PM »
I'm sorry Fran, but while you probably feel that you have made a lengthy argument in your favor, I think that you are completely out of your mind.

I'm sorry Star Stuff... but while you probably feel that you made a logically cogent and relevant rebuttal/answer to my last post, I know that all you did was assert an irrelevant red herring.  Anybody can say anything... but mere assertion means absolutely nothing in any logical attempt at analyzing the strengths or weakeness of the other side's position.  I can just as easily say that I think that you are completely out of your mind for making such an irrelevant statement about my sanity.  But where would this get us?

Is that what you want intelligent people to be reduced to?  For both sides to do nothing at all but call into question the sanity of the other side instead of dealing with the arguments presented?   If that is all you are interested in accomplishing, then what are you doing in here? 

I Know it takes far more intellectual work to actually engage another person in a rational discussion than it does to call into question the sanity of the other side, but I would think that would be far more preferable for a person who thinks of themselves as halfway intelligent.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2008, 12:32:57 AM »
... but mere assertion means absolutely nothing in any logical attempt at analyzing the strengths or weakeness of the other side's position. 

It is because your entire post is "mere assertion" and presuppositon that I have no interest in addressing it. Sometimes, it's too exhausting deconstructing and decapitating such long posts, only to have the theist say:  "Is not".

You are regurgitating a fairy tale as though it were so.  It isn't; but I fully understand the bad habit it has become for christians, as I used to do it to, until I snapped out of the delusion.
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Offline JII

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2008, 03:36:03 AM »
I believe there is a thread already started about, "Where the heck was Yahweh right before the Big Bang?" You are posting double threads.

The moderators in here are "intelligent" so I don't think they'll fall for your shenanigans.  The original post of this thread concerns the silliness of the "Christian concept of faith", the other concerns the physical characteristics of "timeless non-space". There's a big difference there DoC the "Dodger".


Offline Disciple of Christ

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2008, 09:03:18 AM »
I believe there is a thread already started about, "Where the heck was Yahweh right before the Big Bang?" You are posting double threads.

The moderators in here are "intelligent" so I don't think they'll fall for your shenanigans.  The original post of this thread concerns the silliness of the "Christian concept of faith", the other concerns the physical characteristics of "timeless non-space". There's a big difference there DoC the "Dodger".



Yes, these moderators are so intelligent, they allow you to keep on posting threads asking, "Where is God?" in an atheist forum. Intelligence indeed! That's like visiting a Muslim website and a Christian asking, "Where was Allah before the Big bang?" lol
Luke 7:22 - "Go on your way, and tell John what things you have seen and heard; How that the Blind see, the Lame have walked, the Lepers are cleansed, the Deaf hear, the Dead are raised, to the Poor the Gospel is preached." - Jesus Christ 33 A.D.

Offline Operator_013

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2008, 09:36:47 AM »
Forum members are welcome to report threads that they think ought to be merged. :)

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Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2008, 09:43:13 AM »
DoC: We don't beleive in God. We talk about this (*shrug, everybody needs a hobby). Is this a hard line of thought for you to follow? Your continued insitance that we should all run over and bash someone else's god is ridiculous. I don't debate Islam as much because the Muslims I know are good guys who generally seem content to live and let live. The chrisitians I know beleif in forced laws and tapping bible quotes to my locker. I personnely use this place for the fun debates and stumper lines for the thumpers.


But back to the orginal thread, Am I the only one who thinks Mary really openned a bigger can of worms thasn the one mentioned? She claims god dosn't follow the human perception of time. Okay.

So why'd he do all his miracles in a realitivly breif span and then shut up? If he's outside of time and can do whatever why arn't his miracles more broken up?

To use me as an example I should be able to turn my attention to my creation, do the garden, perform all the old testament, perform new testament, and any miracles that need done along the way. Of course as a non linear being I could do them in any order and do any yet to be done. Imagine the armagedon before the and you get what Mary is claiming is possible. Or maybe a better and more sane analogy is a fast forward and rewind button on reality so he could shift things to suit what he wants to see/do.

But we're back to an exceddingly narrow window of activity. I don't usually do apologetics but the best explanation dosn't seem to hold with this idea.

The only rational explanation is he "entered" or time or targeted on area and then left. Why? If he's outside time he should be able to strike any time anywhere.

But he never does. (And that's all based on the huge caviot that he does exist) At least since bible days.

I can follow the non linear claim but not the rational for why he hasn't used it better. I mean what is he doing? Skipping this phase of human life for work somewhere else? Oh %^&*. I just opened a new line of thought.

I don't know. When I started this I thought I was on to something. Alternative Temporal Mechanics gives me a headache and I feel I missed somehting Big in this.

Offline Brianh1903

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2008, 10:15:45 AM »
The whole sacrificing thing makes absolutely no sense. The only way you can possibly make sense of it is to come to the conclusion that god is evil.(he doesn't exist I'm just saying) Since god makes all the rules in the universe, he created the concept of original sin, so that means he created the concept of sacrifices as well, it's not like that was the way it had to be or something, and god had no choice. You can't just say god's reason for a sacrifice was because we sinned, because god made both things up, therefore he could decide what should be done if someone "sins". And he decided that human and animal sacrifice was the answer. Sounds pretty primitive. That's because it was it was written by primitive men. Let me ask you if this makes sense. So because of original sin (something god himself made up) he sent himself/his son to earth to die a painful death, to save us from himself. But why would he make it so he had to send himself/his son to die a painful death to atone for our sins, when he could just choose to forgive the rest of the human race for Adam and Eve's mistake. Since he gets to decide all the rules, you would think sending himself to earth to be tortured to death would be the last thing on his list. Also, you would think that god could think of a less evil way to deal with sinners when they die then sending them to be tortured in hell for eternity, since even humans can think of better way's after all. Like the concept of reincarnation, if you don't do good here on earth, you get sent back to do it again until you get it right. Not only is that now evil, but you still don't reward people for doing bad. Now I don't believe that's actually what happens since there isn't any evidence,  I'm just saying. If humans can think of a way to deal with sinners without torturing them for eternity, don't you think god could, unless he was evil? Conclusion: god is either the most evil being in the universe, or evil men created him. I'm gonna go with the latter.

Offline Brianh1903

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2008, 10:18:55 AM »
NOT evil I meant

Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2008, 10:22:51 AM »
3 things;

First might I suggest you learn what the enter key does?

Second the Jesus thing has been done on other threads. I agree it's a bad sadist plan. But what do you expect from a guy who floods the world to kill a rival group which dosn't die, lets his chosen family of 8 restart slavery, and in general does weird stuff?


Third; reincarnation is it's own punishment. Generally speaking in most relgions people are reborn according to how they lived in theri past life. Do bad things you get a worse life. And they keep getting worse until you find peace and climb the ladder up to the reward the relgion offers. Or just keep going forever living good and bad lives.

Offline Brianh1903

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2008, 10:32:31 AM »
The point I was just trying to make is, that god could have chosen a number of less evil ways to deal with sinners, besides eternal torture in hell.

Offline Brianh1903

Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2008, 10:34:25 AM »
And the reason that I was talking about sacrifices is because someone else mentioned it on this page.

Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2008, 10:35:08 AM »
I totally agree with you and think you made some of the basic good points. I just think your on the wrong thread and really really need to discover the enter key next time.

Understandable. Slightly dereailed but I'm still hoping we can get back to the OP.

Offline Disciple of Christ

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2008, 11:04:53 AM »
In the beginning...  an omnipotent being roams empty space - since forever.

Omnipotent Being:

"Doo..de..doo... do..de..di..dooo..."

"Damn, it’s boring around here. It seems like I’ve been out here, by myself, for an eternity. Wait a dog gone minute! I know what I could do! I could Create the Universe, the Earth, and... People! I could make them with knees, so they could worship me.  First, I’ll teach them the rules, then, I'll wow them with some razzle dazzle and hocus pocus.  Eventually, I can kick back, and expect them to have blind “faith” in me. Why? Cause I'll be hidin' like a somabitch! What a hoot! This will be so gratifying!"

"Abraa..."


God existed before the beginning of space and time. So what is considered, "eternity" if time has not yet been created? God created human kind to show off his brilliant creation. I don't think God created our knees for our ability to worship him. You better study the human body.

God will teach us the rules to abide by, and of course there will be rebellious people that don't want to live by those rules. So, what better way to prove he exists by descending to Earth to walk and talk amongst his own creation? He proved he was supernatural by performing countless miracles in front of large crowds.

So those who have faith in him shall be granted eternal life. And those who deny him are turned back into dust.

Do you think God is hiding? I'm not so sure about that. Just keep watching the international news reports. God is very much alive, my friend.
Luke 7:22 - "Go on your way, and tell John what things you have seen and heard; How that the Blind see, the Lame have walked, the Lepers are cleansed, the Deaf hear, the Dead are raised, to the Poor the Gospel is preached." - Jesus Christ 33 A.D.

Offline Fran

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2008, 11:09:19 AM »
Quote
Fran wrote:
but mere assertion means absolutely nothing in any logical attempt at analyzing the strengths or weakeness of the other side's position.  

Star Stuff responded with:
It is because your entire post is "mere assertion" and presuppositon that I have no interest in addressing it. Sometimes, it's too exhausting deconstructing and decapitating such long posts, only to have the theist say:  "Is not".

You are regurgitating a fairy tale as though it were so.  It isn't; but I fully understand the bad habit it has become for christians, as I used to do it to, until I snapped out of the delusion.

With all due respect, you're missing the point... and that is a continous bad habit we see among atheists.   I was only addressing YOUR REMARK in REPLY #32 about the institution of "blood sacrifice" in the OT.

I of course do not believe that my beliefs are based on a fairy tale, but that itself is irrelevant because that was NOT what I was addressing or what you said in REPLY #32.  You were disagreeing with the "blood sacrifice" NOT because it was a fairy tale (as you now claim), but because it was an example of pettiness and tinyness.

It was THAT remark I was addressing and ONLY addressing. You're remark does not logically follow from what we know about why the institution  of "blood sacrifice" was first implemented.  The moment we understand what the reasons were for instituting the "blood sacrifice", we see that in fact it was not petty or tiny to begin with.

The bases and the foundational beliefs upon which the institution of "Blood sarifice" rested may indeed be a "fairy tale" as you claim... but that doesn't mean the reasons for the institution of "blood sacrifice" are necessarily petty or tiny.  AND THAT IS MY ONLY POINT.

The institution of "blood sacrifice" in the OT is not a fairy tale.  It actually occured.  It's an historical fact.  And that is why in your REPLY #32, you did not claim it was a "fairy tale", and that is why you were smart enough not to claim such a thing in REPLY #32.  Instead, you saying that the idea or concept of "blood sacrifice" was petty and tiny.  And so for you to now say that what Christians believe in is a "fairy tale", only demonstrates that you have now shifted to red herrings.

You made an assertion in REPLY #32 without demonstrating why.  I showed how your assertion in REPLY #32 was not only baseless (because of ignorance of the reasons for the institution), but I also showed that your following post (REPLY #37) was a red herring and irrelevant to the question of whether the institution of "blood sacrifice" was petty and tiny as you claimed in REPLY #32.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 11:12:50 AM by Fran »

Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2008, 11:11:08 AM »
Deep Breath. He wasn't impling that blood sacrifice was a fairy tale. He was saying it's for a fairy tale.

Offline Fran

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2008, 11:19:19 AM »
Deep Breath. He wasn't impling that blood sacrifice was a fairy tale. He was saying it's for a fairy tale.

YES... I understand that.  But that is not what Star Stuff was contending in REPLY #32.  And it was HIS REMARKS in that REPLY that I was addressing.  As i said above, if you read what I wrote, I understand that he believes the foundational beliefs FOR the institution of "blood sacrifice" (the existence of God for example) are a "fairy tale".  But that is NOT what I was addressing.  His remarks in REPLY #32 (which I was specfically addressing) said nothing about God being a fairy tale belief, but that the reasons for institution of "blood sacrifice" itself was petty and tiny.

Can you see how like Star Stuff, that you also are missing the point?

Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2008, 11:23:35 AM »

Can you see how like Star Stuff, that you also are missing the point?

No. But I can see a lot of out of proportion indigent outrage. I think Star Stuff hit point very well. Can you see our (well his) argument?

Offline Disciple of Christ

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2008, 11:24:15 AM »
Yes, but this grand, fantastically omnipotent, omniscient deity..................... still requires blood sacrifice doesn't he?

Please see the tinyness and pettiness of your thinking.

http://www.jesus-explained.org/blood-sacrifice.html
Luke 7:22 - "Go on your way, and tell John what things you have seen and heard; How that the Blind see, the Lame have walked, the Lepers are cleansed, the Deaf hear, the Dead are raised, to the Poor the Gospel is preached." - Jesus Christ 33 A.D.

Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Lunacy of the Judeo-Christian “Faith” Concept
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2008, 11:27:23 AM »
Back down the rabbit hole of circular logic. Run Run Run.