Author Topic: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"  (Read 1093 times)

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Offline Louder

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The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« on: November 11, 2008, 07:27:37 AM »
The Cosmic "dust/smoke":

Is "dust" the most accurate word or the Quranic word "smoke"...

Quran (41:11-12)

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.



Well, for a long time cosmology scientists was thinking for the word dust to be the most proper word to describe the cosmic “smoke” around the space that comes from the exploded stars and it’s all over the space, scientists believed that it’s related with the early construction of the universe.



Few years ago scientists had the chance to have samples from this cosmic dust and have a closer look at the cosmic dust laboratory at  Johnson Space Center so they are saying these particles are too small so they think the word smoke is more proper to describe it with than dust.

Now a day they use the word smoke between brackets as a new definition for the cosmic dust.








also see:

http://www.chem.ucl.ac.uk/cosmicdust/pah.htm
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/instruments-cassini-cda.cfm
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 07:38:08 AM by Louder »

Offline Dissenter

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2008, 07:33:55 AM »
Sorry, what inference are you drawing here?
What is above all needed is to let the meaning choose the word, and not the other way around.

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Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2008, 07:37:07 AM »
....yeah...

So why is there still dust/smoke if god made it into heaven?

Why is it that this dust in some regions is thicker and such bigger and deserving of the title dust (under your logic I've never heard before)

Wait did you just admit that the universe arose of the big bang and dead stars instead of a wave of god's hand (or accoridng to whatever the myth of your choice says)? Why go through millions of years to make the world in X days?

Where's the seven heavens if god made?

So where are the lamps?

Are you bored trying to currupt real sceince to fit your myths yet?

Offline Louder

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 08:47:55 AM »
....yeah...

So why is there still dust/smoke if god made it into heaven?


This is not only in Quran but this is what have scientists said, they believe that after the big bang the universe had small particles included photons, electrons, positrons, quarks as smoke took millions of years to form today’s known atoms in a very high temperature.

They have imagined this to be like a smoke similar to the one we find now which have directed them to these facts.

Quote
Why is it that this dust in some regions is thicker and such bigger and deserving of the title dust (under your logic I've never heard before)

There is no thick cosmic dust never found at all where did you find this information?, This dust is what was left for us to lead us to this discovery.

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Wait did you just admit that the universe arose of the big bang and dead stars instead of a wave of god's hand (or accoridng to whatever the myth of your choice says)? Why go through millions of years to make the world in X days?

The almighty hands of the almighty God made this big bang explosion. the days of God is not like our days as the days on earth is not like the days in mars.

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Where's the seven heavens if god made?

This is what we didn't discover yet as human but who knows maybe in the few coming years we will find more about this huge cosmos.

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So where are the lamps?

The lamps meant in the verse are the stars, which is everywhere around the known cosmos.

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Are you bored trying to currupt real sceince to fit your myths yet?

Corrupt!!! I clearly see that even the Quranic words are more accurate to describe than human words, it took them years to finally figure out that "smoke" is more accurate to describe this cosmic dust.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 11:46:42 AM by Louder »

Offline Louder

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 01:50:16 PM »
If Mohammad -PBUH- wrote the Quran then tell me how can he know about that??, indeed he didn't come with that from his mind or from nowhere, because it was revealed for him from the Almighty our creator and the only creator of this amazing universe that we live on, the same God who revealed His words for Jesus -PBUH- and all the prophets -PBUT- . Praised be our Lord.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 01:52:44 PM by Louder »

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 01:53:28 PM »


Is it not grotesque when the representatives of an antiquated myth-sorcery, who believes in trinity, angles, devils, hell, virgin-birth, bodily ascension, making of water into wine, wine to blood, - when they want to impress us with their "science"? "
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Offline Louder

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 02:12:27 PM »


Is it not grotesque when the representatives of an antiquated myth-sorcery, who believes in trinity, angles, devils, hell, virgin-birth, bodily ascension, making of water into wine, wine to blood, - when they want to impress us with their "science"? "
(Karlheinz Deschner)


You should bring that quote to a christian not a muslim coz I ain't believe in no trinity...!!

and am not trying to impress no body here by islamic science am saying that even muslims didn't know the details of that before science discover this fact at the very present, but it's signs for those who don't believe in God to think about it...

I want a logical answer for that, how can Mohammad know that at that time?, If you didn't give me an answer that would lead us to one fact that it was a revolution from God the one and the only one who witnessed that moments.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 02:14:19 PM by Louder »

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 02:16:46 PM »
You should bring that quote to a christian not a muslim coz I ain't believe in no trinity...!!


That's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever heard/read.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 02:28:25 PM »
Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Online jynnan tonnix

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 02:38:21 PM »
seems to me that even if someone knows nothing of cosmic dust, etc., they might still have enough experience of major construction (or minor construction, even), to know it tends to kick up a lot of dust and debris...Wouldn't it just be natural to assume that the creation of a universe might involve the same thing?

Offline Asmoday

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2008, 02:45:43 PM »
Meh...another fruitless attempt to connect ambiguous verses with scientific findings.

Let´s have a look at this, shall we?

Quote
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
Notice that good old Al is speaking to the heaven and the earth? According to this the earth is not connected with the smokey heaven, since the two are seperated. In fact it sounds like the two are something entirely different.
Planet earth part of the universe ("heaven") and drifting in space? Nope, no such thing according to the quran.
How come that according to you, Louder, the quran tells us about cosmic dust, but on the other hand the book doesn´t even get the very basic stuff right?

Another problem, which you have to face, is that the "heaven" (universe for us who like a more scientific approach) is not made of dust or smoke. Most space of the universe is filled with "nothing". And if we were to reach the border of the universe, I would be quite surprised if one were to find a solid border made of dust or smoke particles.

Next point is the "We decked the nether heaven with lamps"-part. First of all, stars are not simple lamps. Even if we assume for a moment, Gabriel took into account that he was talking with an uneducated merchant with a preference for small children when he dictated the quran, there are still a lot of better ways to describe stars other than simple "lamps". Lamps hang from the ceiling; they don´t free-float in space.

But if we assume, there was no god and no Gabriel and that the quran was indeed thought up all alone by an uneducated merchant with a preference for small children, then it makes sense, to call the stars lamps. In this context it also makes sense, that the "heaven" is "rendered inviolable". Look at the verse and how it describes the "heaven". This does not sound like a description of the universe as we know it. It sounds more like the discription of a giant dome (so huge a man can never tuch the ceiling) covering the earth with lamps hanging down from it.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 02:51:10 PM by Asmoday »
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Offline Louder

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 03:21:28 PM »
Meh...another fruitless attempt to connect ambiguous verses with scientific findings.

Let´s have a look at this, shall we?

Notice that good old Al is speaking to the heaven and the earth? According to this the earth is not connected with the smokey heaven, since the two are seperated. In fact it sounds like the two are something entirely different.
Planet earth part of the universe ("heaven") and drifting in space? Nope, no such thing according to the quran.
How come that according to you, Louder, the quran tells us about cosmic dust, but on the other hand the book doesn´t even get the very basic stuff right?


Quran(21:30)
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?


Quote
Another problem, which you have to face, is that the "heaven" (universe for us who like a more scientific approach) is not made of dust or smoke. Most space of the universe is filled with "nothing". And if we were to reach the border of the universe, I would be quite surprised if one were to find a solid border made of dust or smoke particles.

Didn't you hear about the "Dark Matter" you need to do some researches man.

Quote
Next point is the "We decked the nether heaven with lamps"-part. First of all, stars are not simple lamps. Even if we assume for a moment, Gabriel took into account that he was talking with an uneducated merchant with a preference for small children when he dictated the quran, there are still a lot of better ways to describe stars other than simple "lamps". Lamps hang from the ceiling; they don´t free-float in space.

Lamps don't have to be hanged, the interpreted word in arabic "Mesabeeh" means the source of light, and if there were no stars we would never be able to see any thing in the dark space out there, the pictures above would never be taken if there were no stars to light the area around it.

The interpreter again didn't figure the correct meaning for "Zayanna" interpreted as "decked" I think "adorned' is more proper with the arabic word. scientists describe stars now as contracts of pearls. when you see it with the telescope with it's beautiful different colors.

without the light of the stars todays science would never be able to explore the space.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 04:12:11 PM by Louder »

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2008, 04:13:29 PM »
Thanks for the journey into the twilight zone of special pleading.
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2008, 06:05:55 PM »
Quote
Quran(21:30)
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
Interesting Vers. I have another one: "Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports[...]"(13:2)

Hm...so Al parted heaven and earth... But why "raise up the heavens"? The "heaven", the sky has no mass, it´s not even a "thing" that you could "raise up". The earth is floating somewhere in the universe; there is nothing to raise up in that context. It would only make sense if the earth was the ground, the bottom. From there you could raise something up....Oh...now look at that!

Suddenly the verse makes much more sense, if you think the "heaven" has substance and that the earth is indeed on the bottom and not floating in space. As I said before: The "heaven" is a giant dome with lamps attached to it. It was raised up from the bottom (earth) and is now kept above it even without visible support. (I wait for science to back up that claim of the quran...)
(It´s even more obvious, that heaven is seen as solid dome, because allah asks mohammed, if he can spot any cracks or rifts in it.)

BTW. about the "we made every living thing of water"-part: Before you scream "It´s a miracle of the quran!!!", maybe you should let you god decide on one version of human creation. From what was the first man made? From water, a clot, clay, mud, dust, a drop of fluid or from nothing?

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Didn't you hear about the "Dark Matter" you need to do some researches man.
Oh, I just love it, when theists suddenly act all smug, when their arguments are torn apart and they think they spotted a little error.

I know about dark matter. But it´s unimportant in this context. You seem to think that every place, where no visible matter is, is filled with dark matter. This is not true. There is a huge amount of dark matter, but that does not mean that dark matter fills every place where no "normal" matter is.
I still stand by what I said before: Most of the space is empty.

I won´t even mention here, that your first post said nothing about dark matter but only about visible matter, namely cosmic dust. Looks like Gabriel forgot to tell about dark matter...

Quote
Lamps don't have to be hanged, the interpreted word in arabic "Mesabeeh" means the source of light, and if there were no stars we would never be able to see any thing in the dark space out there, the pictures above would never be taken if there were no stars to light the area around it.

The interpreter again didn't figure the correct meaning for "Zayanna" interpreted as "decked" I think "adorned' is more proper with the arabic word. scientists describe stars now as contracts of pearls. when you see it with the telescope with it's beautiful different colors.

without the light of the stars todays science would never be able to explore the space.
So tell me, if you knew, that interpreter did not translate "The true meaning", why did you chose this translation in the first place?

I looked for various translations and a recurring theme is the term "lamps" in this verse. I even found one version were the term "torches" is used.
I don´t really care if you use "adorned" or "decked" cause both can have the same meaning.

I won´t comment on the rest of this, since it´s irrelevant for our discussion, if the sky looks beautiful at night or if we could not observe the universe without the light of stars.


As another funny tidbit of information regarding the lamps/lights in the sky:
"And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame." 67:5

Hm....stars as missiles? Sounds more like someone confused shooting stars for stars / suns falling from the sky down to earth.
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Offline bahramthered

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2008, 08:45:36 PM »
Quote
As another funny tidbit of information regarding the lamps/lights in the sky:
"And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame." 67:5

Hm....stars as missiles? Sounds more like someone confused shooting stars for stars / suns falling from the sky down to earth

They use that one for nukes. The fire inside stars made into weapons or some sort of such logic.

Offline Louder

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2008, 03:20:45 AM »
Quote
Quran(21:30)
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Interesting Vers. I have another one: "Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports[...]"(13:2)

Hm...so Al parted heaven and earth... But why "raise up the heavens"? The "heaven", the sky has no mass, it´s not even a "thing" that you could "raise up". The earth is floating somewhere in the universe; there is nothing to raise up in that context. It would only make sense if the earth was the ground, the bottom. From there you could raise something up....Oh...now look at that!

No this is not the only way you can think of raise up, because the sky would be above us if I was any where in planet earth if I was at the south pole and pointed toward the up direction it will be the apposite of the other pole but you will still call that up, so the sky have been raised up, when we say God is above everything we don't actually know His position we don't know where is the top and the bottom of this universe.

Quote
Suddenly the verse makes much more sense, if you think the "heaven" has substance and that the earth is indeed on the bottom and not floating in space. As I said before: The "heaven" is a giant dome with lamps attached to it. It was raised up from the bottom (earth) and is now kept above it even without visible support. (I wait for science to back up that claim of the quran...)
(It´s even more obvious, that heaven is seen as solid dome, because allah asks mohammed, if he can spot any cracks or rifts in it.)

The invisible support meant in the verses is gravity, we cannot see it and without this power all the universe will fall a part, and in this part "spotting any cracks or rifts in it" even science today cannot find any error in this cosmos because it’s exactly perfect nothing is wrong everything is floating in it's place with the perfect way.

Quran(36:40)
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.


Quote
BTW. about the "we made every living thing of water"-part: Before you scream "It´s a miracle of the quran!!!", maybe you should let you god decide on one version of human creation. From what was the first man made? From water, a clot, clay, mud, dust, a drop of fluid or from nothing?

Now a days science believe in that there will be no life without water and they know that the water was from the early materials appeared in planet earth and after that life started to form.

Simply first was dust mixed with water became a mud, take some time it will turn to a clay, then God blow his sole into it to become Adam, and we come from a drop then a clot and so on. This is God telling us the stages there is no paradoxes here.

Quote
Oh, I just love it, when theists suddenly act all smug, when their arguments are torn apart and they think they spotted a little error.
I know about dark matter. But it´s unimportant in this context. You seem to think that every place, where no visible matter is, is filled with dark matter. This is not true. There is a huge amount of dark matter, but that does not mean that dark matter fills every place where no "normal" matter is.
I still stand by what I said before: Most of the space is empty.

There is no modern research point toward this theory anymore

95% of the universe is defined as dark matter/ dark energy. There is no place where they think it's empty, they think the name space is wrong.



http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_matter.html

Quote
As another funny tidbit of information regarding the lamps/lights in the sky:
"And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame." 67:5

Hm....stars as missiles? Sounds more like someone confused shooting stars for stars / suns falling from the sky down to earth.

Quran(72:08)
And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
this is on the heaven not earth.

(69:38-39)
But nay! I swear by all that ye see, And that which you do not see.
These verses are talking about every thing that we see and see not, including this dark matter/energy.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 03:51:20 AM by Louder »

Offline Asmoday

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 02:10:02 PM »
Quote
No this is not the only way you can think of raise up, because the sky would be above us if I was any where in planet earth if I was at the south pole and pointed toward the up direction it will be the apposite of the other pole but you will still call that up, so the sky have been raised up, when we say God is above everything we don't actually know His position we don't know where is the top and the bottom of this universe.
Good, that you demonstrate my point here. The phrase "raise up the heavens" makes even less sense, if we talk about earth as a sphere (which it is). And to connect it with the universe is clearly wrong, because the universe has neither top nor bottom.

So the point still stands. The quran does not talk about the universe. It talks about the "heaven" as a solid dome covering the flat earth (another claim of the quran).

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The invisible support meant in the verses is gravity, we cannot see it and without this power all the universe will fall a part, and in this part "spotting any cracks or rifts in it" even science today cannot find any error in this cosmos because it’s exactly perfect nothing is wrong everything is floating in it's place with the perfect way.
Your twisting the verses. The original vers says: "Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports[...]"(13:2)

The "heavens" were lifted up from earth and stay up "without visible support". Gravity is not meant by that. Gravity makes something, that was lifted up from the ground, go down again if it has no support.
Before you point it out, I do know, that gravity is one of the forces that keep our planets in their orbits, but gravity has nothing to do with this particular vers. If you lift something up (which means working against the gravitational pull), gravity will not support you to keep it up there.

And why ask mohammed, if he could see cracks or rifts in the heavens, if the quran really meant the real universe? It would not make any sense at all in such a context. Not to mention that Mohammed lacked the mental capacity, to even think about something like that. The equivalent woul be to ask a kid in kindergarten about quantum physics.
But it makes much more sense if he was asked to look for cracks or rifts in a solid dome. Even a pre-school kid / Mohammed could do that.

Even if we assume for a moment, the claims about the quran are true and Gabriel dictacted it to an uneducated merchant with a preference for small children, it still does not make sense given what we know about the universe so far. God (or allah in this case) is supposed to be an omniscient supreme being and you are telling me, the best way to describe his universe, was to make it look like a solid dome with lamps attached to it covering a flat earth? If that is the best allah can do, I´m not impressed about his eloquence and articulateness.  I´m far from being omniscient, but even I can think up better ways to describe the real shape of the universe to someone who has never heard about it.
As I said before: You desperately try to read something into there verses, which is not there.

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Quran(36:40)
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
Is that so? The moon and the sun run in an orbit around earth? Interesting concept, but unfortunately the solar system doesn´t work that way.
And sun and moon never "overtake" each other? They never meet? Oh...and here I was, thinking solar eclipses are caused by the moon blocking the light of the sun. If that is not true, how do solar eclipses happen? Is the moon in front of the sun just an illusion and the moon is in fact on the other side of the earth? Then why the darkness? Is it because big Al accidently switched out the light for a moment?

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Simply first was dust mixed with water became a mud, take some time it will turn to a clay, then God blow his sole into it to become Adam, and we come from a drop then a clot and so on. This is God telling us the stages there is no paradoxes here.
No, he does not simply tell us the stages. Show me the single verse in the quran where this process is described in the way you just did.
There is nothing like that. All you have is different verses scattered throughout the whole book without reference to each other.

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There is no modern research point toward this theory anymore

95% of the universe is defined as dark matter/ dark energy. There is no place where they think it's empty, they think the name space is wrong.
And again you got it wrong...
You even gave a link to this good and informational website. It would have been better if you read the website first before posting.
Let me help you:

Quoted from the website:
"This is equivalent to a mass density of 9.9 x 10-30 g/cm3, which is equivalent to only 5.9 protons per cubic meter. Of this total density, we now know the breakdown to be:[...]"

So the equivalent mass per cubic meter of the universe would be 5.9 protons. And the overall breakdown of the mass in the universe is shown in the little picture you posted.
The rest of space is empty.

Quote
Quran(72:08)
And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
this is on the heaven not earth.
I see, that this is about the heaven. It even says so. But it only shows, how contradictory the quran is and does not show us, that the heaven is not a solid dome.
First of all the jinn only says he "sought the heaven". For all we know he just flew up to the dome roof and found "strong warders and meteors". So now there are meteors up there. But those are not the lamps up in the sky. As said in the other verse: "And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils [...]"
So according to the quran, the meteors can not be the "missiles in the sky", it must be "lamps" and as we all know, the "lamps" are stars.

Quote
(69:38-39)
But nay! I swear by all that ye see, And that which you do not see.
These verses are talking about every thing that we see and see not, including this dark matter/energy.
Nope, sorry. You are taking this out of context. The surah is not talking about the matter, from which the universe is made of, but instead is about the end of the world and what will happen to unbelievers. The verse you quoted has nothing to do with matter, dark matter and dark energy.
As I said before: You are again taking obscure and ambiguous verses out of context and desperately try to link them to scientific facts.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 02:33:58 PM by Asmoday »
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Offline Louder

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 05:59:14 AM »
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Good, that you demonstrate my point here. The phrase "raise up the heavens" makes even less sense, if we talk about earth as a sphere (which it is). And to connect it with the universe is clearly wrong, because the universe has neither top nor bottom.
So the point still stands. The quran does not talk about the universe. It talks about the "heaven" as a solid dome covering the flat earth (another claim of the quran).

Quran (55:33)
O ye assembly of Jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the diameters of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!

From the verse above we can get to the fact that the aria out of earth and earth are not only spherical but also have many diameters which means that it’s not a circle, the verse dare Man and Jinn if they can dig through earth or get out of the universe from any of it's many diameters.


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Your twisting the verses. The original vers says: "Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports[...]"(13:2)

The "heavens" were lifted up from earth and stay up "without visible support". Gravity is not meant by that. Gravity makes something, that was lifted up from the ground, go down again if it has no support.
Before you point it out, I do know, that gravity is one of the forces that keep our planets in their orbits, but gravity has nothing to do with this particular vers. If you lift something up (which means working against the gravitational pull), gravity will not support you to keep it up there.
And why ask mohammed, if he could see cracks or rifts in the heavens, if the quran really meant the real universe? It would not make any sense at all in such a context. Not to mention that Mohammed lacked the mental capacity, to even think about something like that. The equivalent woul be to ask a kid in kindergarten about quantum physics.

But it makes much more sense if he was asked to look for cracks or rifts in a solid dome. Even a pre-school kid / Mohammed could do that.
Even if we assume for a moment, the claims about the quran are true and Gabriel dictacted it to an uneducated merchant with a preference for small children, it still does not make sense given what we know about the universe so far. God (or allah in this case) is supposed to be an omniscient supreme being and you are telling me, the best way to describe his universe, was to make it look like a solid dome with lamps attached to it covering a flat earth? If that is the best allah can do, I´m not impressed about his eloquence and articulateness.  I´m far from being omniscient, but even I can think up better ways to describe the real shape of the universe to someone who has never heard about it.

As I said before: You desperately try to read something into there verses, which is not there.

No you are the one who is twisting the verses, where in the verse it tells it was raised from the ground it only tells that it was raised up.


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Quran(36:40)

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Is that so? The moon and the sun run in an orbit around earth? Interesting concept, but unfortunately the solar system doesn´t work that way.

And sun and moon never "overtake" each other? They never meet? Oh...and here I was, thinking solar eclipses are caused by the moon blocking the light of the sun. If that is not true, how do solar eclipses happen? Is the moon in front of the sun just an illusion and the moon is in fact on the other side of the earth? Then why the darkness? Is it because big Al accidently switched out the light for a moment?

Where also in the verse that tells that the earth and the moon are orbiting around earth, nowhere, it says that each of them has it’s own orbit separately. And that’s why they will never meet, not because they orbit around earth like you think.



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No, he does not simply tell us the stages. Show me the single verse in the quran where this process is described in the way you just did.

There is nothing like that. All you have is different verses scattered throughout the whole book without reference to each other.

This is the clarifying came to us from Mohammad peace be up on him – him self and Islamic scholars back then. I did not just come with that now.


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And again you got it wrong...

You even gave a link to this good and informational website. It would have been better if you read the website first before posting.

Let me help you:



Quoted from the website:

"This is equivalent to a mass density of 9.9 x 10-30 g/cm3, which is equivalent to only 5.9 protons per cubic meter. Of this total density, we now know the breakdown to be:[...]"



So the equivalent mass per cubic meter of the universe would be 5.9 protons. And the overall breakdown of the mass in the universe is shown in the little picture you posted.

The rest of space is empty.

This is what they can see but how they are going to know that mass of the dark energy and matter which they don’t know much about.

See the link here
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Universe-Empty-No-Filled-With-Neutrinos-80262.shtml


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I see, that this is about the heaven. It even says so. But it only shows, how contradictory the quran is and does not show us, that the heaven is not a solid dome.

First of all the jinn only says he "sought the heaven". For all we know he just flew up to the dome roof and found "strong warders and meteors". So now there are meteors up there. But those are not the lamps up in the sky. As said in the other verse: "And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils [...]"

So according to the quran, the meteors can’t be the "missiles in the sky", it must be "lamps" and as we all know, the "lamps" are stars.

Quran (55:35)
There will be sent, against you both, heat of fire and flash of brass, and ye will not escape.


spacecrafts will have a lot of brass "copper" on it's body when they come down to earth which advocate the verses.

Are you saying meteors don't have light.

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Nope, sorry. You are taking this out of context. The surah is not talking about the matter, from which the universe is made of, but instead is about the end of the world and what will happen to unbelievers. The verse you quoted has nothing to do with matter, dark matter and dark energy.

As I said before: You are again taking obscure and ambiguous verses out of context and desperately try to link them to scientific facts.

Only part of the Sura is telling about the hereafter and from this verse it’s start to tell about the message of Mohammad and the unbelievers,it's not that every Sura has only one thing to tell about, you think the second Sura “The Cow” had only one thing to tell about it is too long and it has many many things told on it.


« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 04:51:27 AM by Louder »

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Re: The Cosmic "Dust/Smoke"
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 06:24:32 AM »
Louder, in your mythology the Jinn and Jinniyah, can be believers or or non-believers in Allah. Also, the mythology holds that men are made from earth (clay), angel made from light, and the Jinn/Jinniyah from fire. It is said jinn/jinniyah can shapeshift as well.

How can an intelligent, sentient being be made out of fire? Have muslim scientisist (chuckle) been able to examine a sample of Jinn biology(firology)?

 

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.