Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 19291 times)

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #551 on: January 20, 2012, 07:04:49 AM »
First on the list - Pol Pot of Cambodia.  Between 2 million and 4 million people were murdered under his regime, from 1963 to 1998.

Pol Pot fought a class warfare, he hated the educated. And since atheists tend to be concentrated among the highly educated, he killed a whole lot of them.

If atheism were important to Pol Pot, would he make war on his "base"? No, he just killed to balance his idea of a just society where the worker class ruled because he himself was nothing more than worker class. Of course the main reason he killed was because he was batshit insane, which is a problem for theists. What does god do with those people who are mentally ill? Does he send them to hell? God made Pol Pot crazy didn't he?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #552 on: January 20, 2012, 07:25:33 AM »
Well, sociapaths exist and sociapaths, by definition, don't have empathy or conscience ... I don't think this fact alone proves objective morality doesn't exist.

Actually it does. If objective morality existed then right and wrong (or good and evil) would be something that would be obvious and unarguable. We would all know what it is. If some people don't because of the way that their thoughts work, then it clearly cannot be considered objective. Unless you're going to change the definition of the word, like Gill.

I agree with everything else, but not sure about this.  Objective (if we're in agreement as to its meaning) is something that is what it is, regardles or anyone's opinion about it.  I think it quite conceivable that there could be an objective morality - "this is right" - even though nobody could agree on what it is, or even recognise it when they saw it. 

It may be that due to our own subjectivity we may never be able to establish what the objective morality is, but I'm not sure that means there isn't one. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #553 on: January 20, 2012, 09:14:25 AM »
If you can conceive of it, then what might it be?  How might it exist?  Details, Anfauglir.  How is the idea even coherent, aside from stringing the words together?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #554 on: January 20, 2012, 09:25:59 AM »

I agree with everything else, but not sure about this.  Objective (if we're in agreement as to its meaning) is something that is what it is, regardles or anyone's opinion about it.  I think it quite conceivable that there could be an objective morality - "this is right" - even though nobody could agree on what it is, or even recognise it when they saw it. 

It may be that due to our own subjectivity we may never be able to establish what the objective morality is, but I'm not sure that means there isn't one.

Uh, did you forget Occams Razor?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #555 on: January 20, 2012, 04:26:57 PM »
I agree with everything else, but not sure about this.  Objective (if we're in agreement as to its meaning) is something that is what it is, regardles or anyone's opinion about it.  I think it quite conceivable that there could be an objective morality - "this is right" - even though nobody could agree on what it is, or even recognise it when they saw it. 

It may be that due to our own subjectivity we may never be able to establish what the objective morality is, but I'm not sure that means there isn't one.

Note the bold. At this point the concept is effectively meaningless and beneath consideration then, isn't it?
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #556 on: January 20, 2012, 05:26:59 PM »
I think god keeps "objective morality" in the lower left hand drawer of his desk.

While the rational people can agree that killing people is a bad thing since we only have the one life, I don't think that anyone (sane) would complain if we kill the mass murderers - whether the mass murderer is atheist (if any really exist), theist or other (they think of themselves as god). Off hand, I can't think of anything everyone could agree on better than "killing people is bad" and make it prohibited. Yet we can also recognize a type of person (a genocidal maniac) who we will violate that prohibition for.

But that doesn't mean we can't reason out the best set of (subjective) morals to uphold.
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Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #557 on: January 20, 2012, 08:45:30 PM »
, I don't think that anyone (sane) would complain if we kill the mass murderers

I would and as far as I know I'm sane. I don't care who they are or what they've done. Outside of self defense killing is wrong period.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #558 on: January 21, 2012, 12:54:48 AM »
, I don't think that anyone (sane) would complain if we kill the mass murderers

I would and as far as I know I'm sane. I don't care who they are or what they've done. Outside of self defense killing is wrong period.

How is killing a mass murderer not self defense?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #559 on: January 21, 2012, 01:59:58 AM »
I would and as far as I know I'm sane. I don't care who they are or what they've done. Outside of self defense killing is wrong period.

So...you a vegan?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #560 on: January 21, 2012, 02:03:57 AM »
How is killing a mass murderer not self defense?

When the mass murderer is already being held in custody, it's not self-defense.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #561 on: January 21, 2012, 02:05:13 AM »
How is killing a mass murderer not self defense?

I believe it is in society's best interest to remove the influence of mass murderers. I also believe that a painful public execution is the best choice for that type of situation.

A thought is forming in my addled mind.

If it's possible, or becomes possible in the near future, to determine with any certainty that a person in power is headed towards genocidal tendancies...would it not make sense to conduct a preemptive strike?

Edit:

spelling and grammar

Edit:

stupid spell checker.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 03:21:18 AM by jaybwell32 »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #562 on: January 21, 2012, 02:27:25 AM »
Off hand, I can't think of anything everyone could agree on better than "killing people is bad" and make it prohibited.

Fucking babies.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #563 on: January 21, 2012, 02:35:07 AM »
How is killing a mass murderer not self defense?

When the mass murderer is already being held in custody, it's not self-defense.

Assuming he is in custody. Assuming he will remain in custody. After all, genocidal maniacs have often gathered followers who will do anything to defend/support them - look at Osama Bin Laden.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #564 on: January 21, 2012, 02:37:24 AM »
Off hand, I can't think of anything everyone could agree on better than "killing people is bad" and make it prohibited.

Fucking babies.

My thoughts didn't go there. My thoughts didn't even go there when I first read your post: I thought you were name-calling. Then I realized the plural didn't work for that.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #565 on: January 21, 2012, 03:30:19 AM »
I agree with everything else, but not sure about this.  Objective (if we're in agreement as to its meaning) is something that is what it is, regardles or anyone's opinion about it.  I think it quite conceivable that there could be an objective morality - "this is right" - even though nobody could agree on what it is, or even recognise it when they saw it. 

It may be that due to our own subjectivity we may never be able to establish what the objective morality is, but I'm not sure that means there isn't one.

If you can conceive of it, then what might it be?  How might it exist?  Details, Anfauglir.  How is the idea even coherent, aside from stringing the words together?

Note the bold. At this point the concept is effectively meaningless and beneath consideration then, isn't it?

Uh, did you forget Occams Razor?

Ouch!  Triple tagged!  Now I know what the believers feel like!

Maybe I was off base, but I was working from the basis that there may be a moral truth that IS, regardless of whether individuals of groups could agree it.  Certainly most of our morals in the West today would be deemed ridiculous by at least one other culture/time.  So just because we, today, can't see it doesn't necessarily mean it don't exist - though point taken about Occam's Razor.

As to an exmple....tricky, but perhaps "where flies come from" would be a good example?  It is an objective truth that they grow from maggots, but for a long time everyone agreed that they spontaneously appeared - so an objective truth was obscured to everyone. 

I'm not saying that there definitely ARE objective morals that we are just too dumb to see - and I take Al's point that it we can't find them, then there can be no discussion!  So I'd agree that for anyone arguing that there ARE objective moral truths, the onus is very much on them to show that they exist, and set out clearly how they are truly objective.  I did say that I agreed with most of Adz's post, remember!  Just wasn't 100% behind that one little bit!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #566 on: January 21, 2012, 04:17:11 AM »
Anfauglir, it's not just that there's no evidence for objective morality.  The concept itself is incoherent.  That's why I asked for specifics on how your idea might be real.  Not for specific moral details, but for some sort of explanation of what "objectively right" even means.  In all my time discussing the topic, I've yet to see a coherent description that didn't end up describing subjective morality instead.

On an unrelated note, only included in this post so that I don't make unnecessary extra posts...
Assuming he is in custody. Assuming he will remain in custody. After all, genocidal maniacs have often gathered followers who will do anything to defend/support them - look at Osama Bin Laden.

For those who we think are going to kill again, the solution is simple:  Don't let them out.  For those who have dangerous followers, it makes no sense to martyr them.  I don't think you've thought this through very well.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 04:20:12 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline ungod

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #567 on: January 21, 2012, 04:40:07 AM »
Why can't we psychologically screen the psychopaths who like killing, and give them jobs in slaughterhouses? Wouldn't that reduce the incidence of war?

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #568 on: January 21, 2012, 08:57:23 AM »
Why can't we psychologically screen the psychopaths who like killing, and give them jobs in slaughterhouses? Wouldn't that reduce the incidence of war?


Slightly, but not by much. Because, for the most part wars are fomented by societal leaders for their own goals. Those that rise to that place in power probably have either enough smarts, money, or connections to avoid/cheat on said test.

A perfect example of this tendency at work is GWB. If it wasn't for his family position, his drug use, going AWOL, string of money losing businesses, and so forth would have marked him as someone you wouldn't want to trust with more responsibility than managing a Wendy's. If he wasn't Republican you would have certainly heard about his incompetence and criminal behavior nightly on Fox. Yet he ends up through slimy and illegal means of his brother messing with the ballot box, becoming President and then being reelected.

If it wasn't being in the U.S.; the story would sound like something straight out of Junta in Central America.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #569 on: January 21, 2012, 09:27:18 AM »
I would and as far as I know I'm sane. I don't care who they are or what they've done. Outside of self defense killing is wrong period.

So...you a vegan?

Plants are alive too.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #570 on: January 21, 2012, 09:33:41 AM »
Why can't we psychologically screen the psychopaths who like killing, and give them jobs in slaughterhouses? Wouldn't that reduce the incidence of war?

This doesn't really make any sense. People don't just want to kill without a message or a target. Let's say for example Hitler wanting to kill Jews. If you give him a job in a slaughterhouse, how would that satisfy him? The political leaders who start wars typically don't want to get their hands bloody, so that wouldn't work for them. Religious leaders who incite wars believe their God wants the other guys dead, so it wouldn't work for them either.
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Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #571 on: January 21, 2012, 11:47:42 AM »
, I don't think that anyone (sane) would complain if we kill the mass murderers

I would and as far as I know I'm sane. I don't care who they are or what they've done. Outside of self defense killing is wrong period.

How is killing a mass murderer not self defense?

How is putting a mass murderer in prison not self defence? We are talking about after the act. Killing a killer is not a moral act regardless of how much judicial dressing up you may wish to give it. 

For those of you who appear to be worrying about animals and plants. We are talking about human life here so I will ignore such comments.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #572 on: January 21, 2012, 01:14:55 PM »
Frank Frank Frank,,,,,,how are you better than a dolphin or a whale,how is your life more important to anybody outside your circles of friends and family?. How bout that tree? If you look closley at that tree,it has a blood stream breathes CO2,heals itselfs when it is injured.

 4000 children starve to death every hour of every day that's 4000X24  EVERY day,you concerned about a murderer being put to death .....how bout the kids who committed NO crime and were just born in the wrong place?

 You are sounding like a THEIST. Fuck the animals and the plants(without them there is NO survival) but lets let a mass murderer live because human life is precious. Would you have killed Hitler?Stalin?,Kim-Jon? or is prison good enough? Where do you live,USA? how bout the blood and bones of the Aboriginal people you walk over almost everyday?
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Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #573 on: January 21, 2012, 02:07:01 PM »
 author=12 Monkeys link=topic=21064.msg472699#msg472699 date=1327169695]
Quote
Frank Frank Frank,,,,,,how are you better than a dolphin or a whale,how is your life more important to anybody outside your circles of friends and family?. How bout that tree? If you look closley at that tree,it has a blood stream breathes CO2,heals itselfs when it is injured.

I don't remember saying I am better than a whale or a dolphin (although I am). If you wish to discuss the merits of animals compared to humans I suggest you start a thread about it.

Quote
4000 children starve to death every hour of every day that's 4000X24  EVERY day,you concerned about a murderer being put to death .....how bout the kids who committed NO crime and were just born in the wrong place?

Well how does killing or not killing a murderer help them?

Quote

 Would you have killed Hitler?Stalin?,Kim-Jon? or is prison good enough? Where do you live,USA? how bout the blood and bones of the Aboriginal people you walk over almost everyday?

No I would not.  The international court for war crimes is presently trying several ex-leaders for appalling acts of mass murder but there is no capital punishement if found guilty. So it would appear my view is prevailing. I live in the UK.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:12:38 PM by Frank »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #574 on: January 22, 2012, 02:33:08 AM »
AHHH the UK the mass murder originator

 The place where the murderers of Aboriginal people originated.....the place that now has a problem with Muslims taking over the place.

 I hate Europeans,but I hate the British EVEN more These FUCKERS are the worst. The original colonizers of North America and the world,where GENOCIDE starts

 Do your research,you are equal or less to a dolphin or whale
 
 What are YOU doing to make a difference for the starving of the world...if nothing you are NO better than a homicidal maniac

 Would you Stop Hitler Stalin or Pol Pot before they reached the million kill mark?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 02:41:38 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #575 on: January 22, 2012, 04:07:08 AM »
Assuming he is in custody. Assuming he will remain in custody. After all, genocidal maniacs have often gathered followers who will do anything to defend/support them - look at Osama Bin Laden.
For those who we think are going to kill again, the solution is simple:  Don't let them out.  For those who have dangerous followers, it makes no sense to martyr them.  I don't think you've thought this through very well.
You are correct, I didn't. My original point was that even a moral almost everyone could probably agree upon, "killing is wrong", would potentially have exceptions and I threw one out there off the top of my head.

As for martyring a genocidal maniac - who says his followers are told he's actually dead? If he's proven to be dangerous and resourceful enough that even imprisonment would be dangerous, you kill him quietly, bury him in an unmarked potter's field and claim you've got him in solitary. Years later you start saying he's ill and eventually he "passes away from natural causes". As one possible solution.

Why can't we psychologically screen the psychopaths who like killing, and give them jobs in slaughterhouses? Wouldn't that reduce the incidence of war?
It probably wouldn't reduce the incidence of war but would potentially reduce the incidence of other killings – if their work in the slaughterhouse satisfied their blood lust.

Since serial killers and other psychopaths can behave themselves at least part of the time, if we do develop reliable enough testing to know who they are, why not train them to be military or police? Right now criminals don't respect the police in part because they know the police are going to go out of their way to arrest even the lowest, most vile piece of crap on the street rather than shoot them. If they know the police employ psychopaths who behave themselves only with law-abiding citizens and have been trained in what is acceptable with specific levels of criminal behavior, I think there would be less crime and more criminals would surrender easier when caught. Knowing that the psychopath cop is waiting for the criminal to pull a gun and watching, hoping for it, that will change the police/criminal dynamic. Hopefully for the better.

Yes, I am a fan of the heart-warming tale of a family man just trying to make his way in a world that doesn't understand him – the blood spatter analyst by day and hero by night, Dexter. I enjoy both the books and the Showtime series.

Slightly, but not by much. Because, for the most part wars are fomented by societal leaders for their own goals. Those that rise to that place in power probably have either enough smarts, money, or connections to avoid/cheat on said test.
A perfect example of this tendency at work is GWB. If it wasn't for his family position, his drug use, going AWOL, string of money losing businesses, and so forth would have marked him as someone you wouldn't want to trust with more responsibility than managing a Wendy's. If he wasn't Republican you would have certainly heard about his incompetence and criminal behavior nightly on Fox. Yet he ends up through slimy and illegal means of his brother messing with the ballot box, becoming President and then being reelected.
If it wasn't being in the U.S.; the story would sound like something straight out of Junta in Central America.
Or from the pages of the Onion.

I read the book The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson. He points out that some CEOs are psychopaths. If he/she has bought, gutted and sold the remains of a company you're probably looking at a psychopath. Although a few were hired to do the gutting of a company for someone else. Mr Ronson interviewed someone who he gave the test to surreptitiously during the interview. The man had enough of an ego (a common failing among them) that he saw the detrimental aspects he was questioned on and twisted them into virtues.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #576 on: January 22, 2012, 02:15:54 PM »
AHHH the UK the mass murder originator

 The place where the murderers of Aboriginal people originated.....the place that now has a problem with Muslims taking over the place.

 I hate Europeans,but I hate the British EVEN more These FUCKERS are the worst. The original colonizers of North America and the world,where GENOCIDE starts

 Do your research,you are equal or less to a dolphin or whale
 
 What are YOU doing to make a difference for the starving of the world...if nothing you are NO better than a homicidal maniac

 Would you Stop Hitler Stalin or Pol Pot before they reached the million kill mark?

I think you'll find us brits barely touched the Americas. The French and Spanish appear to have been far more successful than us so I suggest you save your vitriol for them. The rest is just a silly rant and I don't see any reason why I should give you any further opportunities to vent your spleen.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #577 on: January 22, 2012, 02:52:34 PM »
woooooo you put on a graph,,,,that makes it true
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #578 on: January 22, 2012, 03:12:45 PM »
Lets look at this,Canada-colonized by Britian,India-colonized by Britian,parts of China-colonized by Britian,Australia-colonized by Britian,as a prison no less,America,colonized by Britian,until the revolution

 These colinized coutries I remind you had the Queen  as their head of state,some still do,others have been given up.....to be explored by a particular group is one thing to be COLONIZED by a group is something completley different
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Alzael

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #579 on: January 22, 2012, 05:13:48 PM »
Lets look at this,Canada-colonized by Britian

Actually colonized by Britain and France. The French were then booted out by the British.
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